IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[JLB]

The subject is salvation is for the Gentiles as well as the Jews.
The gift is the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.

 

[JLB]

. I don't understand in what way you think it says that believing comes first and then the gift of life.

What come first; believing or salvation ?

Some people believe that a person must be saved first, then they can believe the Gospel.


Jesus taught believe and be saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Good day JLB.
I don't know if I am allowed to disagree with a moderator.

My authority as a mod is limited to the Topical Studies Section.

Disagreeing is ok by me, let’s just be cordial with one another.

That goes especially for me, so if you think I’m being rude, or offensive just let me know.

Arguing with other mods is not something I would do if I were you. It doesn’t mean you can’t have your perspective, but debating and arguing back and forth is not something the staff will tolerate here.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You are jumping in late. The question as hand is: Does God choose who will be saved or does this decision (free will) lie exclusively with man. This being a subset of God's sovereignty; does he control ALL things. My response is with this thesis in mind.

Thanks for the update.

You will find that my perspective isn‘t limited to made made terms and words.

God is the Sovereign:
A Potentate Or Ruler; The King of kings and Lord of lords.

I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:13-16



What do you mean by God is Sovereign?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Definition of GRANT: to consent to carry out for a person : allow fulfillment of (Merriam-Webster)
Thus, it is GOD that gives/allow repentance.

Grace is the means by which God enables a person to repent.

Thats why the Gospel is called the “power” of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16


Man works in concert with the power of God‘s Spirit to believe and therefore obey the Gospel.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The gift appears to be the holy Spirit of verse 16. I agree, the Spirit regenerates first and gives faith and repentance as part of the process.

By saying the Spirit regenerates first, are you saying a person must be regenerated first, then they believe?


Faith comes by hearing God.


Once man hears, he must obey in order to activate the faith he received from hearing.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Ligonier Ministries (R C Sproul) disagrees with you in regards to Proverbs 16:33: Lord over chance.

Try reading and studying scripture rather than commentary of men.

Scripture disagrees with you, sir.


Why would you think that people casting a lot to make a decision is an example of God’s sovereignty?

Does God make the men cast the lot, or do they choose to cast the lot?


The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.
Proverbs 16:33


The context is about those of His people who are seeking His guidance in their affairs and decisions.

IOW, they have already chosen to follow the Lord, and are choosing His guidance in their affairs.


Example:

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 1:21-26


The Apostles had narrowed down the choice to replace Judas in the ministry of Apostleship by using wisdom and selecting faithful men among the disciples who had followed the Lord from the beginning.


Now since they all couldn’t agree, they used the biblical method of seeking the Lords guidance In this matter.


Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the LORD’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:8-10


The Point:


Proverbs 16:33 is not an example of God’s sovereignty, since it employs the decision making ability of God’s people. This verse in no way should be used to show God chooses independently apart from man.




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Fred,

If you love your children, why would you let them chose 'rat poison' or 'chicken' for dinner? If you don't control dinner then you don't control EVERYTHING by definition. This is a life and death analogy. In my system, God does not love everyone Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5; Romans 9:13. He saves 100% of those he loves. In your system a majority the people He loves go to hell.

Psalm 5:5 (ESV) does not teach what you claim: Look at the context in vv 3-6:

For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you.​

​

5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.​

​

6 You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.​

This is saying, in OT terms, that no evil/wickedness will enter God's presence. To say that God hates 'all evil doers' falls in line with Paul's statement in 1 Cor 6:9-11 where he asked: 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?... And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God' (vv 9, 11).

There is only salvation in Jesus’ name (Acts 4:12); therefore, a person cannot be saved simply through general revelation. The problem is that Scripture declares that, unless a person is in Christ, he or she “stands condemned already” (John 3:18). Romans 3:10–12, quoting Psalm 14:3, pronounces the unregenerate nature to be universally sinful: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” According to Scripture, the knowledge of God is available (through general revelation), but mankind perverts it to his own liking. Romans 1:21–23 states, “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” The status of those without God is one of rebellion, darkness, and idolatry.
Please clarify: Do you believe those who do not hear the gospel can be saved? And if so how? (Not talking about babies or mentally handicapped.)

Who, then, did Paul mean when he said those exposed to God's existence through general revelation are 'without excuse' (Rom 1:20 NIV)?

The verse supports my contention that faith is given to us so we can believe.
Premise 1: Faith is pleasing to God
Premise 2: An unsaved person cannot please God without faith
Conclusion: The unsaved person cannot please God via "free will" faith because that is a contradiction of the two premises.
(that might be difficult to follow ... I tried)

This is a typical Calvinistic Reformed answer where regeneration MUST precede faith. Are people forced to receive this regeneration? Do they have no say in responding to Christ? Do ALL Christians come into the Kingdom through irresistible grace?

The problem is that Scripture declares that, unless a person is in Christ, he or she “stands condemned already” (John 3:18). Romans 3:10–12, quoting Psalm 14:3, pronounces the unregenerate nature to be universally sinful: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” According to Scripture, the knowledge of God is available (through general revelation), but mankind perverts it to his own liking. Romans 1:21–23 states, “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” The status of those without God is one of rebellion, darkness, and idolatry.

I agree with all you've stated here. What is at stake in our discussion is how the Father draws people to Himself, whether people have free will to choose or reject salvation, and whether regeneration precedes faith or whether faith come (given by God) when a person responds to the Gospel.

LOL.... no way I can do that. The question assumes God gives us "FREE WILL" (ability to believe salvifically from the power within ourselves). Since this is not true, there will not be a verse to establish it. Like saying "show me a verse supporting God losing His sovereignty because God lied". I won't find it because God never lies.

According to Acts 16:29-31 (ESV):

29 And the jailed called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


How would the jailer receive salvation? In the Greek is was a command, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved....', i.e. 'You believe'. Paul didn't say: 'You can't believe because God must regenerate you before you can have faith. Then He will irresistibly draw you to salvation. You will not be able to reject/disobey his command'.

Your Calvinistic view adds to what the text says. The jailer who had kept Paul & Silas in prison had the Lord working in him - drawing him - so he was able to ask, 'What must I do to be saved?

UNWILLING denotes that had they free will choice to go to Him... that is what you insert into the verse. I can just as easily state: UNWILLING denotes that God has not chosen to give them faith to believe.

Fred, I do wish you would exegete the text. How do you know whether it is unwilling/free choice or unwilling = God has chosen? There's only one way I know:

Let's check the Scriptures:

38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people (John 5:38-41 ESV).​

The Greek (I read & have taught NT Greek at college level) states in v. 40: καὶ οὐ θέλετε ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἵνα ζωὴν ἔχητε. Here the infinitive, ἐλθεῖν = to come, is provided for context.

Therefore, the ESV and other translations that use refuse, are unwilling, base it on:
οὐ θέλετε = ou thelete. Thelete is the present tense, active voice, indicative mood of thelō. Ou is the negative, not. Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek Lexicon (1957:355) provides the meaning for thelō as 'wish, will, of purpose, resolve, wish to do'.

Here in John 5:40, any translation, whether ancient or modern, that translates as ...

• You refuse to come;
• You are not willing to come;
• You will not come;
• You are unwilling to come;
• You won't come;

IS CORRECT, based on the etymology of thelō and the infinitive elthein.

Note: He who COMES TO GOD must BELIEVE that He is
and God rewards THOSE WHO SEEK HIM.
Agreed. Again the question at hand is WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF US SEEKING HIM. This verse addresses WHAT we must do; not WHY we did it.

John 6:44 and John 12:32 answer that. People need to be drawn by God and accept that drawing.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Try reading and studying scripture rather than commentary of men.

JLB,

Why are you sarcastic to me like this???

Do you know why I study Scripture and also read commentaries prepared by men and women? I follow the Bible. God told us he provided the gift of teachers to the church: 1 Cor 12:28-29; Eph 4:11; Rom 12:7.

As long as I have breath in my body, I'll accept God's gift of the teacher to instruct me through commentaries, books on theology, church history, etc. I'll share that with with others, wherever possible. If somebody says it better than I as a teacher I'll quote him or her, providing the reference.

There is another factor. You don't like my quoting excellent Bible teachers on this forum, but when I come here, what do I read in your posts? Your teaching on a subject. You don't want me to quote others but it's OK for us to be exposed to your teaching? You know what that's called!

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

If this be true, I ask you to prove it empirically. If you can stop sinning then you have proven you have been given a choice of which god/God you chose. You have a handicap that unbelievers do not, as you have the Spirit of God indwelling you.

Fred,

Do you really understand what empirical science is? If so, how could I prove God by empirical science?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know. But He did. Even if He didn't predestine their failure, He knew about it. I do know for sure that He wasn't mocking them.

Right.
So far no one has been able to answer this question.
Your "side" too often depends on not knowing...
God is not completely knowable...
but we do know about Him some things that the reformed
do not seem to know.

For instance....
Why God created evil...which they say He actually did create.
Why God made Covenants He knew man would not be able to keep.

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvinisim does not believe that God causes evil. Evil people cause evil and evil exista in our world because of sin. Sin is evil. People cause evil. We reap what we sow and God works our evil to accomplish His purposes, rather than our evil stopping them. He has a BIG plan. The fullness of our redemption is coming, and with the redemption of all creation, (the trees, the animals, the storms etc.) meaning all things will be restored. No sin in any of us!!! Imagine such a world!

My gosh Aigdor.
You don't even know it, but you're a regular Christian and not a calvinist Christian.
Everything you state above is NORMAL "" Christianity.

The reformed (calvinist) believe that God CAUSES evil.

I even posted a video on this from John Piper....the Pope of Calvinism/reformed.

Here it is again....
You should really watch it.
If you don't want to hear too much about dust motes....start at about 2.0

 

[OzSpen]

Calvinisim does not believe that God causes evil. Evil people cause evil and evil exista in our world because of sin. Sin is evil. People cause evil. We reap what we sow and God works our evil to accomplish His purposes, rather than our evil stopping them. He has a BIG plan. The fullness of our redemption is coming, and with the redemption of all creation, (the trees, the animals, the storms etc.) meaning all things will be restored. No sin in any of us!!! Imagine such a world!

Avigdor,

I suggest you obtain a broader understanding of what some Calvinists teach.

The Calvinism of John Piper's Desiring God Ministries teaches that God exercises 'absolute, direct, and intentional sovereign government of the world' (including evil and suffering) through intermediaries such as angels. Some of these are evil angels (demons).

The powers of these intermediaries is not autonomous, i.e. they can't act outside of God's sovereignty. God has chosen, in His will, to use these intermediaries to cause evil and suffering in the world (source).

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure how to resend it to you but it is post 166.

Here is post no. 166....
Avigdor said:
He might do it that way, He could. Usually though I think He uses means. This could be any number of things, i.e. the words or advice of a person, circumstances, a delay, an interruption---the weather. It is called second causes. I'm convinced 99% of the time we are totally unaware of it. He doesn't directly change your will, He moves things where they need to be or removes things that are in the way. He may simply give wisdom. Wisdom comes from Him.

I gave you a like....
it means I agree with you.

 

[JLB]

Why are you sarcastic to me like this???

It’s not sarcasm at all.

It’s disappointment.

I believe you are a gifted teacher, and would rather see you mining and expressing the wonderful truths from the scriptures, the inspired word, like Paul, rather than referring to the commentaries of men, which are their opinion of what the scriptures mean.


Just sayin....


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

My gosh Aigdor.
You don't even know it, but you're a regular Christian and not a calvinist Christian.
Everything you state above is NORMAL "" Christianity.

The reformed (calvinist) believe that God CAUSES evil.

I even posted a video on this from John Piper....the Pope of Calvinism/reformed.

Here it is again....
You should really watch it.
If you don't want to hear too much about dust motes....start at about 2.0

wondering,

Many Calvinists do not believe God causes evil. Most Reformed theology teaches God's exhaustive sovereignty but it also affirms human responsibility. These Calvinists do not believe God causes evil. See Eph 1:11. I, and many Calvinists, don't understand how God's full sovereignty and uncompromised human responsibility work together. For an example of this Calvinistic thinking, see HERE.

John Piper has a reputation of being an extreme Calvinist, a supralapsarian.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

That is absolutely true. You are misinformed when think Calvinist ascribe such a thing to God.

Avigdor...
there is a very fundamental truth about Calvinism that you cannot accept....

The reformed/calvinist believe that God has PREDESTINED EVERYTHING that happens....they believe He is a DETERMINIST God. This means that He CAUSES everything to happen.

If God causes everything to happen....it means He also causes SIN to happen and also all the horrible things that have gone on since the beginning of the world. Including Stalin, Hitler, murder, rape, torture----EVERYTHING.

Calvinists DO NOT DENY THIS.
They believe God predestined EVERYTHING,,,including sin and evil.

Calvinist; Dr. James N. Anderson, of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC, in his published work; Calvinism and the first sin, states the underlying proposition: “It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism: the view that everything is ultimately determined by God…..take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold, and may be expressed as the following: “For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].” Dr. Anderson also states that Calvinism is committed to a compatiblist form of free will.

..............................................................................................................................................................
Predestination is a doctrine in Calvinism dealing with the question of the control that God exercises over the world. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God "freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass."[2] The second use of the word "predestination" applies this to the salvation, and refers to the belief that God appointed the eternal destiny of some to salvation by grace, while leaving the remainder to receive eternal damnation for all their sins, even their original sin. The former is called "unconditional election", and the latter "reprobation". In Calvinism, some people are predestined and effectually called in due time (regenerated/born again) to faith by God.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism


...................................................................................................................................

 

[OzSpen]

It’s not sarcasm at all.

It’s disappointment.

I believe you are a gifted teacher, and would rather see you mining and expressing the wonderful truths from the scriptures, the inspired word, like Paul, rather than referring to the commentaries of men, which are their opinion of what the scriptures mean.

Just sayin....

JLB

JLB,

What does 'Just sayin....' mean in your culture? It's meaningless in mine.

The Urban Dictionary says it is 'a phrase that is used when someone is offended by something you said. This phrase then removes all the offensiveness of the previous statement, making it all good'.

Good commentaries represent good exegetes who mine the original languages. You have a false view of good exegesis being 'their opinion of what the scriptures mean'.

You didn't admit to the hypocrisy where you chastise me for using outside teachers with links, but you are able to teach your own theology without impunity. I find that to be a hypocritical position.

Oz

 

[JLB]

What does 'Just sayin....' mean in your culture? It's meaningless in mine.

It’s a friendly way of saying... just my two cents.

 

[JLB]

You didn't admit to the hypocrisy where you chastise me for using outside teachers with links, but you are able to teach your own theology without impunity. I find that to be a hypocritical position.

Ok.


Sorry you feel that way.


I just believe you can do better than to say to someone who has taken the time to present scriptures to you, and explain his perspective from those examples of scripture....
“RC Sproul disagrees with you.“

Your better than that.




JLB