IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[Fastfredy0]

In any case the Calvinist view is as difficult to put into words as it is for non Calvinist to understand.

This is the Presbyterian Reform Thoughts, Baptist one is similar

Reformed Thoughts on Decrees of God
https://www.apuritansmind.com/westminster-standards/chapter-3/

Reformed Thoughts on Providence

Chapter 5: Of Providence | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

www.apuritansmind.com

Reformed Thoughts on Free Will

Chapter 9: Of Free Will | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

www.apuritansmind.com

 

[GodsGrace]

Not sure I agree with this. To me sovereignty is ruling over and in control of His creation, not just that He has the right to. But I could be wrong!! Anyway, that is how I use it.
I have to stop awhile. It is dinner time!!

I believe God has control over everything....
I said this in post no. 160:


God is in control of everything....if He stopped being in control, the very universe would stop functioning.

Within that control, God has given us free will to make moral choices.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have trouble putting a label to what I believe. Not that it's wrong, I just don't ever seem to fit into the boundaries set by a label. I will however attempt to make some sense.
I can't say that I disagree with Philosophical free will with the caveat that In God's great invisible plan and purpose, and also regarding the personal plan He has for each of us, He will not allow us to make a choice that will change it. He most often I believe does this through second causes. Sometimes He might put a talking donkey in your path.
Libertarian free will, same caveat.

It's the above that non-reformed cannot agree with.
God allows us to make whatever choice we wish to make.
IF it intrudes somehow with His final Grand Plan,,,then God has the capability of working around it.

I'm not sure what you mean by second causes....

I understand God's sovereignty and our free will this way:

It's like a football game.
God has a plan and wants a particular team to win.
With each play, the player will CHOOSE the play...
this is a free will choice that each player makes as he is playing.
But when the game is over,,,,the team that God wanted to win...WILL WIN.

It's possible for both to be true:
God's Sovereignty
Man's Free Will

It does not have to be one or the other.

 

[GodsGrace]

On this I get the sense that there is a slight misinterpretation (not on purpose) of what Calvinisim teaches. My issue is your use of the word makes because I don't know exactly what you mean by it. Are you considering make as being forced against your will? In any case the Calvinist view is as difficult to put into words as it is for non Calvinist to understand. Thus misunderstandings. I have in my library numerous discourses on it by people who have a better grasp of precision language BY FAR than I do, and I will delve into it and get back to you on that point.

I use the word MAKES because....
it does not mean that God makes you do things against your will.

It means that God CHANGES your will so that you do what HE wants you to do.
You THINK you're choosing, but really you are not.

See the following:

Does this mean that Calvin does affirm “free will”? If by freedom one means, as Pighius argues, that man’s will is in no way determined [predestined] but that man has the self-power to will good or evil toward God (what is today titled libertarian freedom), so that by his own strength he can equally will either, then free will is rejected by Calvin.

If I give you a pill that makes you want to wear red.....
you will wear red....
but did you really want to,
or did you wear red because I gave you that pilll?

In Calvinism, God is that pill.

And I believe in Libertarian Free Will, as is mentioned in the quote above.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God is in control of everything....if He stopped being in control, the very universe would stop functioning.

Within that control, God has given us free will to make moral choices.

This is a contradiction. First you say God control everything; then God does not control many (all?) moral choices of men. Everything includes moral choices.

You interestingly separate God's will into a sovereign will and a moral will.
Is God not ONE being?

I don't think you understand. By way of example. I know it is wrong to steal a toy at the store (my moral will); yet, I do it (my sovereign will). I am one being. It is a way of classification.

If God wishes everyone to be saved...which He does

If God wished everyone to be saved then why is not everyone saved? He is either not incapable (I think we don't think that is the issue) or He has ceded control (sovereignty) in this area. He is not in control. God is now controlled by man in this area. In this activity we have deism (belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe). In short, it seems to make the blessed God a sort of Almighty Minister of Fate, under its universal and supreme influence; as it was the professed sentiment of some of the ancients, that Fate was above the gods. It means human volition is equal to or is, in some meaningful sense, greater than the divine will … that when God created human beings with volitional freedom He accordingly divested Himself of absolute sovereignty.

Sin happens because man is free to sin.

Are you saying God did not wish sin to enter the world? How can this be? He is all powerful. Seems He is not in control (sovereign), in your opinion, in this area too.

I cannot know the Westminster confession of faith.
I can only know scripture.
If I want to know what calvinism teaches, I go to the Institutes that Calvin wrote.

The institutes is

If you don't believe the Institutes then our conversation is pretty much over.

The confession is much more concise. 20 pages instead of 1000. I am happy to use the Institutes, but you must use it too. Please use quotes instead of your impression of what you think it says because, although your definitions are close, they are still not accurate. For example, you will not find anywhere in the institutes where Calvin says: God MAKES ('make' means 'causes') us do everything. I stand to be corrected, but I challenge you to verify that statement. Again, you are close to what he said, but you have missed an important nuance which results in you saying that Calvin said the God makes (causes) us to sin. THERE IS NO WAY THAT IS TRUE ... lol ... but, find me the quote and prove me wrong.

 

[Avigdor]

It means that God CHANGES your will so that you do what HE wants you to do.
You THINK you're choosing, but really you are not.

He might do it that way, He could. Usually though I think He uses means. This could be any number of things, i.e. the words or advice of a person, circumstances, a delay, an interruption---the weather. It is called second causes. I'm convinced 99% of the time we are totally unaware of it. He doesn't directly change your will, He moves things where they need to be or removes things that are in the way. He may simply give wisdom. Wisdom comes from Him.

 

[Avigdor]

Does this mean that Calvin does affirm “free will”? If by freedom one means, as Pighius argues, that man’s will is in no way determined [predestined] but that man has the self-power to will good or evil toward God (what is today titled libertarian freedom), so that by his own strength he can equally will either, then free will is rejected by Calvin.

I'm not sure I'm following. It seems like this is saying two different things. I probably need to read the whole thing to get context. In total depravity, which I think is dealing with, Calvinisim teaches that our fallen will won't on its own choose God. Some do say cannot but I would have to give it some thought and check some sources to say for sure if that is actually part of the doctrine. There is a nuance in there that if it won't. it can't. We do have the physical/mental ability to choose Him, but we won't. It is our nature to want to rule over ourselves.

 

[Avigdor]

I'm not sure what you mean by second causes....

I'll use the talking donkey. It was God who wanted the man to stop.
It was the donkey who actually made him stop.
It was God who made the donkey talk, in order to stop tha man.

 

[Avigdor]

God is in control of everything....if He stopped being in control, the very universe would stop functioning.

Within that control, God has given us free will to make moral choices

I know you know this. I have never questioned it. Sorry if it ever seemed like I was.
I remember thinking that very thing walking along the Missouri river once. That if God turned away for a split second, everthing would fly apart! And once I realized I only breathe because God gives me breath.

 

[GodsGrace]

For Avigdor and Fastfredy0

Just came over to shut down.
Read a couple of your posts.
Will reply tomorrow morning.
1 a.m. here.

Good night.

 

[GodsGrace]

He might do it that way, He could. Usually though I think He uses means. This could be any number of things, i.e. the words or advice of a person, circumstances, a delay, an interruption---the weather. It is called second causes. I'm convinced 99% of the time we are totally unaware of it. He doesn't directly change your will, He moves things where they need to be or removes things that are in the way. He may simply give wisdom. Wisdom comes from Him.

This is more in line with mainstream Christianity....by that I mean non-reformed beliefs.
I agree with the above.

I'll go a step further and say that the Holy Spirit helps us to understand what God wants and will lead us in that direction. This also will not directly change our will, but it will influence our will - hopefully causing us to do what God would want.

But we can still sin...and do at times.
'night.

 

[Avigdor]

You interestingly separate God's will into a sovereign will and a moral will.
Is God not ONE being?

Hey W, I'm sure Fredy will explain this and much clearer than me, but a moral will and a sovereign will does not seperate God. We have the same thing, so as an analogy of God's. i.e you really, really want to eat half a gallon of ice cream, but instead you only eat a bowl. Like I said, just an analogy, so hopefully it will give you an idea of what is meant. It is Biblical by implication. An example would be that God wants everyone to be saved (moral will) but His sovereign will does not save everyone. Attatching if they choose Jesus to His will does not negate that. He didn't have to attatch any conditions, especially since He knew most people wouldn't meet the conditions. And right ther, put like that, a condition attatched, makes choosing a work. Faith is required for salvation to be sure, and the reason it isn't a condition (required of us. Jesus did the work) is because it is a gift. The faith is gifted to us. The Bible clearly tells us, and I know you agree. no works (except Jesus's) are conditioned on salvation. By grace we have been saved

 

[Avigdor]

This is more in line with mainstream Christianity....by that I mean non-reformed beliefs.
I agree with the above.

This is a very strong part of Reformed. I learned more about it there than anywhere. Surprised?

 

[Avigdor]

For Avigdor and Fastfredy0

Just came over to shut down.
Read a couple of your posts.
Will reply tomorrow morning.
1 a.m. here.

Good night.

Night, night. Sleep well.

 

[Avigdor]

Let's not get off topic, however.
It doesn't matter that Joshua was asking the people to choose between Yahweh and the gods of those living in Canaan.

The fact still remains that a DECISION had to be made as to which "god" to serve.
The people do not want to forsake THE LORD for other gods.
So they CHOOSE to serve Yahweh.
Is this not a free will choice? (no matter the situation).

I absolutely see what you are saying but there was something different about it. It wasn't so much choosing God as it was choosing the protection and provision, with the lines clearly drawn. Chooseing God was defined by God with law and ceremony. We see some in OT history whose hearts truly loved God, and I admit this a bit of a puzzle for those who don't adhere to free will. (Probably not every one, but me anyway.) I sure can't explain it to you right now, but I bet Fastfredy can. For myself, other scriptures make it clear, that we won't choose God so I just consider this delimma one I haven't figured out yet' But I digress!!
And for sure the Israelites, all good intentions aside, couldn't keep their end of the bargain. Over and over again, only returning to Him when they were desperate.
I know we make choices, thay is obvious but why must we call that free will instead of choice or decisions? Why must choices prove we have free will? What is so important about that? We believe or we don't. Period.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The fact still remains that a DECISION had to be made as to which "god" to serve.
The people do not want to forsake THE LORD for other gods.
So they CHOOSE to serve Yahweh.
Is this not a free will choice? (no matter the situation).

We see some in OT history whose hearts truly loved God, and I admit this a bit of a puzzle for those who don't adhere to free will. (Probably not every one, but me anyway.) I sure can't explain it to you right now, but I bet Fastfredy can. For myself, other scriptures make it clear, that we won't choose God so I just consider this delimma one I haven't figured out yet' But I digress!!

LOL, we are all trying to figure some things out.

Free Will (reform perspective IMO)
Augustine: We always chose what we want at the time (this is free will)

What determines our will to chose freely as defined above ... The FIRST CAUSE (GOD), what people do is the SECOND CAUSE. Law of Causality states: "Every effect has a cause", this is true by definition ... An effect is a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.

Free will is logically impossible. If we picture the exercise of the will as a movement of the mind toward a certain direction, the question arises as to what moves the mind, and why it moves toward where it moves. To answer that the "self" moves the mind begs the question, since the mind is the self, and thus the same question remains. Why does the mind move toward one direction instead of another? If we trace the cause of its movement and direction to factors external to the mind, factors that impress themselves upon the consciousness from the outside and thus influencing or determining the decision, then how is this movement of the mind free? If we can trace the cause to the person's innate dispositions, then this movement of the mind is still not free, since although these innate dispositions decisively influence the decision, the person himself has not chosen these innate dispositions.

The same problem remains if we say that a person's decisions are determined by a mixture of his innate dispositions and external influences. If the mind makes decisions based on factors not chosen by the mind, then these choices are never free in the sense that they are not made apart from God's sovereign control – they are not free from God. Rather, the Bible teaches that God exercises immediate control over man's mind, and he also sovereignly determines all the innate dispositions and external factors related to man's will. It is God who forms a person in the womb, and it is he who arranges outward circumstances by his providence. Then, it is he who controls man's mind and cause each decision that he makes. (Acts 17:28, Col. 1:17)

No created being or created thing exists that is not an EFFECT. God is not created, therefore He is not an effect.

No one can chose God for salvation unless God regenerates them first. I've listed 20 or so verses establishing the fact that man is not capable of choosing God salvifically (Total Depravity). I also listed 20 verses that say the source of our faith is God; thus not ourselves.)

There are no scriptures stating a person selected God independent of God's influence. God does not love everyone; He does not save everyone. I gave verses to prove that also. (Aside: He loves everyone to the extent that the rain falls on the good and the bad). All the proof verses I given have gone unchallenged (granted that does prove I am correct).
I can give verses showing selection for salvation is by God alone, repentance is a gift of God, analogies point to man not being capable, stories of converts that where it is evident God did the work of salvation, verse saying salvation is a WORK of God, verse showing God is one that CALLS, verses showing God attributes would be contradicted by libertarian 'free will'. Notice, salvation (believing) is a work ... work is defined as physical or mental actively one does for a purpose), etc. etc. etc.

Avigdor, if you want a copy of my notes (a summary of 10ish systematic theology book) you are welcome to them. Just finished adding notes from John MacArthur (Biblical Doctrines) and R.C.Sproul (Truths We Confess). I used quotes from Horton six times (smile)
or I can send you Horton's "A Christian Faith Systematic Theology"

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a contradiction. First you say God control everything; then God does not control many (all?) moral choices of men. Everything includes moral choices.

It's not a contradiction Fred.
I ask....why does giving man free will take away any control from God?
The reason you believe this is contradictory is because of your belief in determinism.
Which would be the idea that God predestines everything, as is taught in calvinism...and which includes man's will. IOW, man's will is made to match God's will.....Compatibilist Free Will.
Compatibilist free will is a calvinist solution to reconciling our will to God's deterministic nature, in calvinist theology.

Non-calvinist theology has no problem with God's Sovereignty and our free will (libertarian).
Because we believe God can be all-powerful and still give to man free will, as He gave to Adam and Eve.

In fact, an all-powerful (omnipotent) God is MORE WILLING to give man free will,
It would be a WEAKER God that would fear, or not care, to give man true free will. (libertarian).

I don't think you understand. By way of example. I know it is wrong to steal a toy at the store (my moral will); yet, I do it (my sovereign will). I am one being. It is a way of classification.

I understand very well.
It's your TERMS I'm not familiar with and I'm not really willing to learn them.
Can we use plain language that all Christians understand and that are more biblical please?

Your stealing example would go like this in plain language:
We know it is wrong to steal a toy at the store, because Natural Law tells us so.
but, having a sinful nature, I tend toward stealing it, and do so.

If God wished everyone to be saved then why is not everyone saved? He is either not incapable (I think we don't think that is the issue) or He has ceded control (sovereignty) in this area. He is not in control. God is now controlled by man in this area. In this activity we have deism (belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe).

God wishes everyone to be saved -- we both know the verses.
So then WHY is everyone not saved, you ask.
I've already replied to this...but, again:
Everyone is not saved because God gives CONDITIONS as to HOW to be saved.
John 3:16 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL BE SAVED.
John 3:3 JESUS SAID WE MUST BE BORN OF ABOVE TO BE SAVED.
Acts 16:31 PAUL SAID THE JAILER MUST BELIEVE TO BE SAVED.
Mark 1:15 JESUS SAID TO REPENT AND BELIEVE

Not everyone accepts God's conditions.
John 3:16, for example, is a condition and instruction...NOT A STATEMENT as you believe it to be.
WHOEVER believes will be saved.
Jesus said to repent and believe... not everyone repents of their sins and are very happy to continue sinning.

God is NEVER controlled by man....that would make man sovereign...no such possibility.
Man could be sovereign over another man....a King. But man could never be sovereign over GOD THE ALMIGHTY,,,the creator of man cannot be subject to man.

God has given all mankind the POSSIBILITY to be saved...as a loving and JUST God would do....It's up to man to take advantage of this possibility.

In short, it seems to make the blessed God a sort of Almighty Minister of Fate, under its universal and supreme influence; as it was the professed sentiment of some of the ancients, that Fate was above the gods. It means human volition is equal to or is, in some meaningful sense, greater than the divine will … that when God created human beings with volitional freedom He accordingly divested Himself of absolute sovereignty.

This is not what "we" believe.
Explained above.

As to the ancients...maybe you mean the Greeks?
I'm willing to discuss the Early Church Father....but the ancients really are of no interest, or should not be, to Christianity.

God is ABSOLUTELY SOVEREIGN.
Every Christian believes this.

NOTHING happens without HIS PERMISSION.
God ALLOWS....

Are you saying God did not wish sin to enter the world? How can this be? He is all powerful. Seems He is not in control (sovereign), in your opinion, in this area too.

I cannot keep explaining the same topic and you keep bringing it up....

God ALLOWED sin to enter the world because He gave Adam and Eve Free Will, true libertarian free will --- which was never taken away or you'd have to show me where in the bible it was removed.

Adam and Eve used their Free Will to eat the forbidden fruit and DISOBEY GOD.
God ALLOWED this due to their free will.

And they paid for it dearly.

The confession is much more concise. 20 pages instead of 1000. I am happy to use the Institutes, but you must use it too. Please use quotes instead of your impression of what you think it says because, although your definitions are close, they are still not accurate. For example, you will not find anywhere in the institutes where Calvin says: God MAKES ('make' means 'causes') us do everything. I stand to be corrected, but I challenge you to verify that statement. Again, you are close to what he said, but you have missed an important nuance which results in you saying that Calvin said the God makes (causes) us to sin. THERE IS NO WAY THAT IS TRUE ... lol ... but, find me the quote and prove me wrong.

I understand about the W.C. but that's like taking a man's view
CALVIN
and other men explaining it.
It removes us too far from the bible.

That's like trying to use the CCC if I were catholic instead of the bible.
It just wouldn't work.

I don't even like to use the Institutes but you keep wanting ME to prove CALVINISM to YOU.
I find this odd, to tell you the truth. You say I'm close but not close enough. What is closer???
What do I state that you feel is wrong?

You stated:
I challenge you to verify that statement. Again, you are close to what he said, but you have missed an important nuance which results in you saying that Calvin said the God makes (causes) us to sin. THERE IS NO WAY THAT IS TRUE ... lol ... but, find me the quote and prove me wrong.

I made the original statement,,,YOU have to prove ME wrong!
In any case, do you listen to John Piper?
He has stated many times that God CREATES EVIL for His own purposes which we cannot know.
Please don't tell me you're not aware of this.....
!!

 

[GodsGrace]

He might do it that way, He could. Usually though I think He uses means. This could be any number of things, i.e. the words or advice of a person, circumstances, a delay, an interruption---the weather. It is called second causes. I'm convinced 99% of the time we are totally unaware of it. He doesn't directly change your will, He moves things where they need to be or removes things that are in the way. He may simply give wisdom. Wisdom comes from Him.

I might have already replied to the above.
The above is acceptable to Christianity that is non-calvinist...
however, it is NOT what calvinism teaches.

The following is what Calvinism teaches....
I'm posting an interview with John Piper. He states clearly that God governs everything in the universe....even every bad thing that happens. Piper has stated this many times and, of course, he represents true calvinist teaching.

Piper says:
So the macro-world and micro-world are all managed by God. Which means, Yes, every horrible thing and every sinful thing is ultimately governed by God.

Here is the source....The video statement is at about 2.0 if you don't want to hear the entire reply...

Has God Predetermined Every Tiny Detail In the Universe, Including Sin?

John Piper shows how the Bible attributes absolutely everything to God, even the worst of sins.

www.desiringgod.org

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure I'm following. It seems like this is saying two different things. I probably need to read the whole thing to get context. In total depravity, which I think is dealing with, Calvinisim teaches that our fallen will won't on its own choose God. Some do say cannot but I would have to give it some thought and check some sources to say for sure if that is actually part of the doctrine. There is a nuance in there that if it won't. it can't. We do have the physical/mental ability to choose Him, but we won't. It is our nature to want to rule over ourselves.

You're right.
On it's own, our fallen nature will not seek God.
But we also know from the N.T. that God does reveal Himself to man.
This has been from the beginning as is shown in
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

From the above we can learn that when each of us is standing before God,,, we will have no excuse as to why we did not believe in Him because God has revealed Himself to mankind through the things God has created that are visible to us.

So we DO have the ability to say YES to God BECAUSE He has revealed Himself to us, and especially through the Hebrew people.

IOW,,, every Christian believes we are born depraved ... Paul makes this clear in the book of Romans. However, calvinism teaches that it is GOD that chooses who will be saved and who will be lost. I find this to be changing the nature of God which is a nature of LOVE, MERCY, and JUSTICE.

God is a God of love, but He is also a JUST God.
Would a just God send someone to hell through no fault of their own?
I don't believe so. God, as the N.T. teaches, gives to all men the opportunity to be saved.
Jesus said REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. (the good news).
The good news is that Jesus can save all those that wish to be saved.
John 3:16

The following is what Calvinism teaches...it is not accepted by the rest of Christianity....
God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost.

CHAPTER 21.
OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.

1. But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, [so much is inexplicable to calvinists!]

5. This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

source: Calvin's Institutes (as above)

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey W, I'm sure Fredy will explain this and much clearer than me, but a moral will and a sovereign will does not seperate God. We have the same thing, so as an analogy of God's. i.e you really, really want to eat half a gallon of ice cream, but instead you only eat a bowl. Like I said, just an analogy, so hopefully it will give you an idea of what is meant. It is Biblical by implication. An example would be that God wants everyone to be saved (moral will) but His sovereign will does not save everyone. Attatching if they choose Jesus to His will does not negate that. He didn't have to attatch any conditions, especially since He knew most people wouldn't meet the conditions. And right ther, put like that, a condition attatched, makes choosing a work. Faith is required for salvation to be sure, and the reason it isn't a condition (required of us. Jesus did the work) is because it is a gift. The faith is gifted to us. The Bible clearly tells us, and I know you agree. no works (except Jesus's) are conditioned on salvation. By grace we have been saved

God is a Moral Being and a Sovereign Being.

I'll try to understand what you're saying.....

The following, which you said, I don't quite get... Is there scripture for this??
God wants everyone to be saved (moral will) but His sovereign will does not save everyone. Attatching if they choose Jesus to His will does not negate that. He didn't have to attatch any conditions, especially since He knew most people wouldn't meet the conditions. And right ther, put like that, a condition attatched, makes choosing a work.

If God wants everyone to be saved,,,and yet it is HE that decides (which is what I think you're saying) then WHY wouldn't He just go ahead and save everyone?
How is choosing a work?
I would need scripture for this since I've never heard of this before.

I certainly agree that we are saved by Grace through our faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9

We cannot be saved through our own works....works do not save us.
Faith is gifted to us by God when we repent....

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So the above states that we are saved through our faith...
By God's grace
and IT is a gift. There is some debate as to what IT is referring to but I find it's not important in our discussins here.

NOT as a result of works....
We do get works but AFTER we are saved,
as in verse 10.

I believe we agree on this, but I don't understand your point about "conditions".