IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[GodsGrace]

you did. You asked isn't the good news that we have a chance to save ourselves. Maybe you didn't mean it like that. Don't know post # and am not going back, but my post must have quoted yours.

Oh. SAVE OURSELVES in the sense that we can choose to get ourselves saved.
It should be clear after all our discussion that i don't believe we can actually save ourselves.
Jesus is the SAVIOR....not us.

What about the Covenants?
You going to answer?

I have to shut down...
hope to see you tomorrow...
and Fastfredy0 too.
You're both easy to speak to....
but I think FF is the reformed one here!
'night.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Seems like the other side (non-reform) is using evil as a cudgel.

Prefer to bypass theodicies ... but

Reformed Side
We believe God, as Piper said or something close to what he said, controls everything down to the specs of dust. This is to fullfill his decree (plan) as to how everything will occur. I think it is close to determinism. The label is compatibilism which seems similar to determinism, except God (first cause) gets us (second cause) to do as He planned (guess God is eternal so he has not time tenses, but I digress) by making our wills to align with His decree. But, as I have stated many, many times ... and quoted two reformed confessions ... "God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein". In other words, God does not create sin... he does 'allow' sin.
I see where you are coming from when you believe that because God planned something, he must have created something. Theodicy (the vindication of divine goodness and providence in view of the existence of evil) is difficult for both sides to explain. R.C. Sproul said NO ONE HAS DONE IT YET.

Non-Reformed Side (IMO)
You have the same problem with understanding the existence of evil as the reformed side. You don't know where it came from and you don't know who controls it. You don't know why God allowed it. Yeah, Satan controls it, but who controls Satan (Satan is a created being so not like he is First Cause of evil).

Only difference in this discussion is the reformed side isn't weaponizing the existence of evil in our arguments.

LOL... I am never going to catch up to all these posts ... luckily, I don't have a life (wink)

 

[Fastfredy0]

You know that Wesley berlieved we could be sin free in this life...total sanctification.
It has never been proved ! Even the Nazarene church has moved away from this doctrine.

We cannot overcome our sin nature. Not sure overcome is the right word and I'm getting too tired to think...just hoping you understand me.

I think I read that about Wesley. Agreed, we cannot overcome our sin nature

Our sin nature remains with us till we die.

We our slaves of the one to whom we present ourselves. Romans 6.

Agreed. This is what I was trying to use to demonstrate that we don't have the ability to chose freely. On one side the sin natures given to us because Adam "blow it" is, to some extent, determining our choices. Similarly, the indwelling Spirit is, to some extent, determining our choices (sanctification). We are not free to choose.
Then, as I pointed out, because of our depravity which most on your side cede as true ... no one can choose God. If we can't chose God of our own, yet we do ... the reason must be God.
Yeah, I know you don't agree. I would hope you appreciate the possibility.

Have a good sleep.

Why the "heck" (excuse the language) is an American in Italy?

 

[Avigdor]

What about the Covenants?
You going to answer?

I don't remember the question. Try me again. Also I asked you a question. Do you have an answer to why God would make a bi-lateral covenant with people He knew would fail? Haven't heard unless it is in my alerts and I haven't read it yet.

 

[Avigdor]

I have to shut down...
hope to see you tomorrow...
and @Fastfredy0 too.
You're both easy to speak to....
but I think FF is the reformed one here!
'night.

FF is just more articulate and precise than I am. He hasn't said anything I disagree with. But W, all due respect, and I do respect you, please don't tell me what I am and am not. You are easy to talk to also, and I look forward to your posts.
Night. "See" you in the morning.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You bring up two points...
One is whether or not faith is a work.
I do believe I've addressed this, but will repeat.
If faith is a work....then what does the very verse YOU brought up mean??

This is in regards to John 6:28 Then they asked Him, “What are we to do, so that we may habitually be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

Work is defined as physical or mental exertion to achieve a purpose. (Merriam-Webster)
Yes, faith is a work (something to be done to achieve a purpose). The guys in verse 28 want to know what work is to done to be saved (v.27). In verse 29 Jesus is saying, you can do nothing; rather, the work is done by God and not you and the work is defined as giving them faith.
Your way, the people have to do something to be saved (believe) which is a work, my way faith in inserted into them (part of regeneration) so they do NOTHING. Your way a person must do something (mental process (believe) to achieve a purpose(salvation)) to be saved and that is why person 'x' is saved a not person 'y'. My way, person 'x' does nothing and is saved.

Faith is NOT a work.
Works do NOT save us...only FAITH does.
Hebrews 6:1
1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Close (IMO). Our works do not save us ... the work of God via the insertion of faith into us saves us.

LOL ... need a lawyer to write this up ... LOL

 

[jasonc]

I think I read that about Wesley. Agreed, we cannot overcome our sin nature


Agreed. This is what I was trying to use to demonstrate that we don't have the ability to chose freely. On one side the sin natures given to us because Adam "blow it" is, to some extent, determining our choices. Similarly, the indwelling Spirit is, to some extent, determining our choices (sanctification). We are not free to choose.
Then, as I pointed out, because of our depravity which most on your side cede as true ... no one can choose God. If we can't chose God of our own, yet we do ... the reason must be God.
Yeah, I know you don't agree. I would hope you appreciate the possibility.

Have a good sleep.

Why the "heck" (excuse the language) is an American in Italy?

Lol. In exile for being a new Yorker

 

[OzSpen]

Show me any place where Reformed says God created evil.
Can you answer the question of why God made covenants he knew they would not keep? I am sincerely curious to hear your answer.

Abigdor,

Matthew Henry was a strong Calvinist in his theology. In his Concise Commentary on Isaiah 45:5-10, he wrote:

There is no God beside Jehovah. There is nothing done without him. He makes peace, put here for all good; and creates evil, not the evil of sin, but the evil of punishment. He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy; and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy (sic) of his creatures, but are restrained and overruled to his righteous purpose.

So, this Calvinist taught that Jehovah God created the evil of punishment.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I agree and must say that within that belief is the fact that IF God is a deterministic God, then HE has predestined everything,,,and within that everything has to be our actions and everything that man does or does not do.

IF it is GOD that determines all my actions, then how could I possibly be held responsible for my actions? This makes no logical sense. Calvinism strives to understand something that is not understandable, and so we hear that we are not supposed to understand what God does not want us to.

Then why would God reveal Himself at all to us?
I do not agree with any Calvinist thinking because God created us in HIS image,,,,,
He is a logical God...and so we, by consequence, must also be logical in our understanding of Him.

wondering,

I'd be interested in knowing how you view people being 'made in the image of God'. What does that look like for a person.

While God is logical in many things he does (He gave us the logic of sentences in Scripture), but He is more than that. He exercises the full range of his attributes all the time.

Oz

 

[Fastfredy0]

If you notice,,,the Westminster Confession is always brought up.
Could you imagine speaking to a Catholic here and the use the CCC for support!
It would be unacceptable, but somehow we're expected to trust in the W.C.

This is a false equivalency. The R.C. believes in the authority of scripture, the infallibility of the church and tradition. Reformed theology teach Sola Scriptura. Reform theology places the WCF or London Confession, Nicene Creed, yahda, yahda as mere fallible tools. The thoughts of many men in their best attempt to understand scripture (Proverbs 11:14, Proverbs 15:22). The scripture says God gives the gift of teaching to some. This implies that the thoughts of others are valuable; many coordinated others more valuable.
You yourself, are reliant upon the works of many, many others. Others have brought the books of the bible together, others have translated the Greek and Hebrew for you, others have defined many of uour best ideas/doctrines like the TRINITY for you. I don't 1 in 1000 could figure out the trinity of hypostatic union of Christ by reading the bible by themselves. (Even with their help I am somewhat confused)
To study the scriptures on your own without help is a daunting task (Acts 8:31). How could the weak of mind figure it out? How much time needed to accummulate so much knowledge and organize it? How does a single person contemplate so many items? I can't.
Most denominations statements of belief are minimal; their teachings scattered to and fro.
Granted, you should search scripture for yourself (2 Timothy 3:16). Granted, many are misguided by others. Yet, I find something like the WCF as a guide to scripture far superior to the single mindedness. To the extent that the WCF is wrong, it by definition is a bad thing. I question some stuff (Eschatology/church gov't) myself. On the other hand, your beliefs may be as incorrect also; possibly more so.
What seems wiser, the work of many, many theologians who believe in sola scriptura and come to decisions as to the meanings of the bible or ... individuals of limited skills (intelligence in some cases) determining the meaning? They both will 'screw it up' (am I allowed to say that in here?), but the wisdom of many is better than the few.

Men brainwash us....
we should ONLY read scripture and check everything just like the Baraens did, Acts 17.

Agreed, men brainwash us. A few brainwash us with the truth (or as close as man can get to it).
I like to think of myself as a Baraens, assume you are too. Yet, the Baraens did not decide to double check scriptures until Paul spoke to them and establish new ideas. Similarly, it might be wise to double check the scriptures according to what the WCF tell you. I checked out some Arminian writtings.

Aside: I always thought that there was some merit to the Roman Catholic's idea that the dissemination of scripture should be controlled by the clergy so the commoners don't get it all wrong. I am glad they can't do this because the R.C. clergy got it wrong and I understand you see the WCF being of a similar elk.
Hey, maybe you understand this more accurately than I ... and maybe, with the counsel of many I got it more accurate than you. Hopefully, from the vantage point of the one of us that is not as close to truth as the other ... we will be rewarded for effort to understand and not the content of our understanding. The good news is we got enough of it right; in your case by your efforts to believe and in my case by the effort God made by giving my belief.

Aside: I like you guys, glad you tolerate me :yes

 

[OzSpen]

Re: Constant attacks in regards to the content of what Reform people believe; specifically, reform preaches that God creates sin and if you are reformed you must believe it or you do not understand what REFORMED theology.

Fred,

That's not what the Calvinist commentator, Matthew Henry, believed about God creating sin.

In his Concise Commentary on Isaiah 45:5-10, he wrote:

There is no God beside Jehovah. There is nothing done without him. He makes peace, put here for all good; and creates evil, not the evil of sin, but the evil of punishment. He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy; and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy (sic) of his creatures, but are restrained and overruled to his righteous purpose.​

Oz

 

[Avigdor]

Abigdor,

Matthew Henry was a strong Calvinist in his theology. In his Concise Commentary on Isaiah 45:5-10, he wrote:

So, this Calvinist taught that Jehovah God created the evil of punishment.

Oz

I commend you for finding a Calvinist who said God created evil. But even so it is not the tradition of Reformation Theology to say that God creates evil or is even the author of it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Did you ever reply to Piper's YouTube explanation of how God created evil?
No.
Why?

I believe I did respond. I said I agreed with Piper. I said you misunderstood him. You said that Piper said God controls speck of dust (something like that) and then you said that means Piper believes God created evil. Piper did not say that. We have explained did many, many times.

Then you post the Westminster Confession again.

This is a more concise, practical document to refer to. I am fairly sure Piper agrees to most of it. You have an advantage over me as you have not statement of beliefs to analyze and attack.

Why don't you use the bible?
I answered all your verses when posted one or two at a time.

You say I don't use the bible and then mention the many verses I quoted. This is a contradiction.
Yes, you did answer many of my verses. Thank you
I think you skipped the TOTAL DEPRAVITY verses and the verses show Faith come from God and not ourselves; but there are so many posts that that is understandable.

I still curious as to whether you believe a person that dies today without having heard the gospel has a chance to be saved???? A post gave me the impressive that you did.

Why are you leaving us?

I didn't ... or if I did Im accidentally miscommunication.

Aside: Glad this software has spell check (my spelling 'sucks'... can I say "sucks" in here)

 

[OzSpen]

I don't know anywhere in the NT that says the good news is that we can save ourselves.

Is there anywhere in the NT where we are commanded to believe?

 

[Avigdor]

Matthew Henry was a strong Calvinist in his theology. In his Concise Commentary on Isaiah 45:5-10, he wrote:
So, this Calvinist taught that Jehovah God created the evil of punishment.

Oz

I still contend that evil is not a creation as I laid out in another post to you. Maybe you missed it or haven't yet responded. Yes God is permitting it, as it is our just reward for our treason, "the evil of punishment". For Henry to refer to this as a creation is probably a poor choice of wording. Of course I don't know what he really thought.

God is good. He didn't create good. He is good. That is who He is. None of His attributes are created, they just are. As He just is. And always was and always will be. No evil exists in Him, therefore He can not be the author of evil, or create evil.

 

[Fastfredy0]

That's not what the Calvinist commentator, Matthew Henry, believed about God creating sin.

In his Concise Commentary on Isaiah 45:5-10, he wrote:

There is no God beside Jehovah. There is nothing done without him. He makes peace, put here for all good; and creates evil, not the evil of sin, but the evil of punishment. He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy; and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy (sic) of his creatures, but are restrained and overruled to his righteous purpose.

Hmmm ....
Aside: I didn't know Henry was a calvinist
I guess you are saying that Henry represents Calvinism and the quote shows Henry believes God creates sin. I assume I am suppose to defend this.

Aside: I prefer to defend the Westminster Confession or London Baptist Confession of the subject. I pointed out that both say GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN

But to you assumed question as I have interpreted.
Get, wife wants to go out.. got to hurry...
"EVIL" in bible something refers to calamity like a tornado killing people and I think some translation use one word or another. Since Henry clarifies by saying not evil of sin but of punishment ... that seems to be the case (have to ask him to be sure .. smile)

I agree with the rest...to Paraphrase.. God plan everything out including evil where evil is by permission (passive) and not active verb.

Got to go. Enjoyed. I can tell you love God. Very good.

 

[Avigdor]

Is there anywhere in the NT where we are commanded to believe?

The short answer is no. There are plenty of places where it tells us that believing is salvation, but I think that anyone would be hard pressed to definitively prove it is a command. Proof. Not bias.

 

[OzSpen]

I commend you for finding a Calvinist who said God created evil. But even so it is not the tradition of Reformation Theology to say that God creates evil or is even the author of it.

Avigdor,

It has been the long tradition of John Piper as senior pastor, Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis MN. The late R C Sproul & Ligonier Ministries taught this view also, that evil as punishment was created by God (based on verses such as Isa 45:7).

It tends to be associated with supralapsarians, i.e. extreme Calvinists.

Oz

 

[Avigdor]

Is there anywhere in the NT where we are commanded to believe?

I just answered that in another post but you may not get it. It was in a post between you and FF I think.
No. Absolutely there is no place in the NT that commands us to believe. I know there are many passages that you and others consider as a command to believe. I read those same passages as believing being the content, or "proof" of salvation. Salvation depends upon belief and if you believe then you are saved. If you read them from that perspective, just as an exercise of curiosity, you will see that yes, they legitimately could be saying that. Doesn't mean you have to agree, but it would be lovely if just one person could acknowledge that people who believe as I do, did not come up with our beliefs out of left field. That serious thought and study and prayer went into it and that it is legitimate, not manufactured. That we love God, and are in Christ too, and that our way of interpreting the Bible is as valid as is that of those who disagree. That we do not twist and warp scripture to fit a preconcieved preference.

 

[Avigdor]

Avigdor,

It has been the long tradition of John Piper as senior pastor, Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis MN. The late R C Sproul & Ligonier Ministries taught this view also, that evil as punishment was created by God (based on verses such as Isa 45:7).

It tends to be associated with supralapsarians, i.e. extreme Calvinists.

Oz

I don't know Oz. I have read some of Piper but it has been a long time, and i remember disagreeing with him on some things. However I no longer remember what those things are. As for Sproul, I like his works, have read a large number of them, and if I ever read that he said God created evil, I would have remembered, would have said no way. In any case, men are not perfect, we all sometimes say things wrong and see them wrong. Even Luther and Calvin kind of went off the rails eventually, in regards to peoples. And I do not agree with everything Calvin said, regarding infant baptisim, and Luther on the Lord's supper, or eschotology.
My viewing evil as not a creation, just the necessary other side of good, as far as I know, is just something I worked out in my head. Never heard it taught. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong or right.