IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[Avigdor]

Here is post no. 166....
Avigdor said:
He might do it that way, He could. Usually though I think He uses means. This could be any number of things, i.e. the words or advice of a person, circumstances, a delay, an interruption---the weather. It is called second causes. I'm convinced 99% of the time we are totally unaware of it. He doesn't directly change your will, He moves things where they need to be or removes things that are in the way. He may simply give wisdom. Wisdom comes from Him.

I gave you a like....
it means I agree with you.

Maybe I didn't have the correct post. Going back through them at that point in the day was exhausting. In my memory my response "How is that not controling every thing?" was in regards to your question about what I meant by second causes and I no longer remember what your response was that made me respond with above question.
It doesn't matter, I think we are on the same page there anyway since you gave me a like.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you love your children, why would you let them chose 'rat poison' or 'chicken' for dinner? If you don't control dinner then you don't control EVERYTHING by definition. This is a life and death analogy. In my system, God does not love everyone Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5; Romans 9:13. He saves 100% of those he loves. In your system a majority the people He loves go to hell.

1. My children would have freedom to choose dinner....this would not take away my sovereignty over my home. I would still be in charge. Kings are in charge of their counties....and yet the populace does have freedoms,,,don't they?

Rat poison would not be on my menu for a child...but if the child is an adult and he wishes to take rat poison....he has the right to. Have you heard of suicide??!
Also, in YOUR belief system,,,God DOES provide rat poison since it is HE that controls EVERYTHING....to put it your way.

If you don't believe God loves all His creation in some way,,,,then you must not agree with the N.T.

Didn't JESUS say that God loves the whole world?
John 3:16

Did God not die for us while we were still sinners?
Romans 5:8

And what about John 4:10

and so many others....
God made us
He loves us
He died for us

Not everyone accepts His love and thus cannot be saved.

The verse supports my contention that faith is given to us so we can believe.
Premise 1: Faith is pleasing to God
Premise 2: An unsaved person cannot please God without faith
Conclusion: The unsaved person cannot please God via "free will" faith because that is a contradiction of the two premises.
(that might be difficult to follow ... I tried)

Your statement is not difficult to follow.
You claim that we are regenerated first,,,,
and THEN we can believe.

I'll post the verse again...please show me how your understanding of it is correct:

Hebrews 11:6 ----and so many others:
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Here is your premise:
Premise 1: Faith is pleasing to God
Premise 2: An unsaved person cannot please God without faith
Conclusion: The unsaved person cannot please God via "free will" faith because that is a contradiction of the two premises.

HOW did you come to your conclusion?
You are bringing YOUR belief system to the verse. You are eisegeting this verse.

All we can know from this verse,,,without adding anything to it, is this:

1. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
2. We must believe that God IS.
3. We must COME TO GOD.


Note: He who COMES TO GOD must BELIEVE that He is
and God rewards THOSE WHO SEEK HIM.

WE come to God.
WE seek Him.

Where does it state that God comes to get us?
Does it not say that WE seek HIM?

Note: He who COMES TO GOD must BELIEVE that He is
and God rewards THOSE WHO SEEK HIM.

Agreed. Again the question at hand is WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF US SEEKING HIM. This verse addresses WHAT we must do; not WHY we did it.

What is the cause of us seeking Him, you ask.

Here is the cause:

Romans 10:13-17
13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”

17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


From The above verses we learn:

1. WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

2. We must learn about the one that will save us by hearing about Him.

3. We praise those that bring the good news: Preachers, etc.

4. However, not everyone that HEARS the good news will ACCEPT the good news.

5. FAITH COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD

6. AND ACCEPTS IT as in no. 4.

This is how faith comes.
I have more verses if you need them.

WOW

... you believe those that never heard the gospel can be saved? WOW ...never heard an informed Christian that believed that. Very interesting. That would be consistent with your God loves everyone and therefore is obligated to give everyone a chance at salvation. WOW
There is only salvation in Jesus’ name (Acts 4:12); therefore, a person cannot be saved simply through general revelation. The problem is that Scripture declares that, unless a person is in Christ, he or she “stands condemned already” (John 3:18). Romans 3:10–12, quoting Psalm 14:3, pronounces the unregenerate nature to be universally sinful: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” According to Scripture, the knowledge of God is available (through general revelation), but mankind perverts it to his own liking. Romans 1:21–23 states, “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” The status of those without God is one of rebellion, darkness, and idolatry.
Please clarify: Do you believe those who do not hear the gospel can be saved? And if so how? (Not talking about babies or mentally handicapped.)

You read Romans 1:21-23
Did you read Romans 1:19-20?

Christians that believe only those that have heard about Jesus are saved are not fully mature Christians.

How did people get saved in the O.T.?
How do people in Africa get saved?
How does ANYONE that does not have access to the gospel get saved?

According to YOU GOD picks and chooses who will be saved.
According to YOU God is sovereign and can do as HE please.



So why do you have a problem with persons that haven't heard about Jesus being saved??
YOU should have no problem at all with any belief since it is GOD that determines EVERYYTHING...including who gets saved. Right?

Calvinism causes many problems in theology.

My mentioning Lazarus was to make the point that God can give commands that we can't obey ... like love God with all your mind and heart. I think you took it another way.

You say God can give a command that we cannot obey?
Like love God with all your mind and heart?

1. Jesus did NOT give any command we cannot keep.
1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

2. We are REQUIRED to love God with our heart and mind or we cannot love anyone else and we are to love all of God's creation and treat them as such.

And if we love everyone,,,as Jesus said to,,,
then it does seem, according to YOU, that we are more able to love God's creation than HE IS!

3. How is God JUST if He gives a command we cannot follow??

Can God say to me WALK and expect me to walk if I have no legs?

Calvinism creates many problems in theology.

LOL.... no way I can do that. The question assumes God gives us "FREE WILL" (ability to believe salvifically from the power within ourselves). Since this is not true, there will not be a verse to establish it. Like saying "show me a verse supporting God losing His sovereignty because God lied". I won't find it because God never lies.

You tell me you quoted 40 verses at some point.
You say God never lies.
Was JESUS lying when He said that WHOEVER believes in HIM will be saved?
John 3:16

UNWILLING denotes that had they free will choice to go to Him...

that is what you insert into the verse. I can just as easily state: UNWILLING denotes that God has not chosen to give them faith to believe. The verse DOES NOT say why we are unwilling. I can see the possibility that you could be correct; for some reason you can't see my explanation could fit the verse.
Best to use hermeneutic rule of interpreting implicit verses by explicit verses to verify assumptions which is to say the meaning is ambiguous.

What do you suppose Jesus meant when He said that those in Jerusalem were NOT WILLING to go to Him?
Matthew 23:37

What OTHER explanation could there be?

Have a good night in Italy.

It's the afternoon here.
Thanks for a good conversation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok.


Sorry you feel that way.


I just believe you can do better than to say to someone who has taken the time to present scriptures to you, and explain his perspective from those examples of scripture....
“RC Sproul disagrees with you.“

Your better than that.




JLB

JLB
Those of the reformed/calvinist beliefs tend to quote men because it is these men that have changed the meaning of God's character and the meaning of bible verses.
OzSpen would like to use the scriptures instead....but the reformed have a great deal of respect for their "leaders" and it is not wrong to quote them if it could be shown that the member does not understnd something about the very beliefs they are espousing.

P.S. I've had to post John Piper a couple of times (I think on this very thread) because one of the members thinks I don't understand calvinism....so I have to post a calvinist that is the top preacher to show her that I DO undesrstand calvinism and that Piper agrees with what I'm stating and not what SHE is stating.

 

[Avigdor]

I suggest you obtain a broader understanding of what some Calvinists teach.

Not to get touchy here Oz, It wasn't me that put myself under that label Calvinist. I believe what I believe from my own extensive study of resources, always checking with scripture. I don't fall into a category that stays within the boundaries squished into a label. I think for myself. To suggest that I obtain a broader understanding of what Calvinism teaches, so that my beliefs fall consistently beneath that label, is sort of insulting. I am not saying that you insulted me, just that I find that kind of remark, innocent though it was, a suggestion that my intelligence may be compromised. and an insult to my freedom as an individual to make up my own mind about what I believe.

 

[Avigdor]

The Calvinism of John Piper's Desiring God Ministries teaches that God exercises 'absolute, direct, and intentional sovereign government of the world' (including evil and suffering) through intermediaries such as angels. Some of these are evil angels (demons).

The powers of these intermediaries is not autonomous, i.e. they can't act outside of God's sovereignty. God has chosen, in His will, to use these intermediaries to cause evil and suffering in the world (source).

The question is, What was in Piper's mind when he said those words? What did he actually mean by them? Well, only Piper knows for sure. But what he does not say is that God causes evil. He says the God governs evil. (On the point of"through intermediaries such as angels" I am not sure I understand exactly what he means, though ofcourse God can do anything in whatever way He wants.) We do have the example of satan's conversation with God in Job.

Causing and governing are two different things entirely. That evil exists in our world now is because we took into ourselves (via Adam and Eve) the knowledge of good and evil.
That doesn't mean God caused it, even though He knew from always that we would commit this act of treason. Let me propose here a truth that seems to be ignored concerning the existence of evil. If one thing exists, good, the opposite will also exist, evil. If you have an up, of necessity there is a down. If there is a front, of necessity there will be a back. We have the knowledge and experience of evil because of our treason against God. And God governs it to fulfill His purposes. (Job again) He could have done things entirely differently, a way that our humanity would find more to our liking and easier for us to understand, but He didn't.

 

[Avigdor]

Avigdor...
there is a very fundamental truth about Calvinism that you cannot accept....

The reformed/calvinist believe that God has PREDESTINED EVERYTHING that happens....they believe He is a DETERMINIST God. This means that He CAUSES everything to happen.

If God causes everything to happen....it means He also causes SIN to happen and also all the horrible things that have gone on since the beginning of the world. Including Stalin, Hitler, murder, rape, torture----EVERYTHING.

Calvinists DO NOT DENY THIS.
They believe God predestined EVERYTHING,,,including sin and evil.

Calvinist; Dr. James N. Anderson, of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC, in his published work; Calvinism and the first sin, states the underlying proposition: “It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism: the view that everything is ultimately determined by God…..take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold, and may be expressed as the following: “For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].” Dr. Anderson also states that Calvinism is committed to a compatiblist form of free will.

..............................................................................................................................................................
Predestination is a doctrine in Calvinism dealing with the question of the control that God exercises over the world. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God "freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass."[2] The second use of the word "predestination" applies this to the salvation, and refers to the belief that God appointed the eternal destiny of some to salvation by grace, while leaving the remainder to receive eternal damnation for all their sins, even their original sin. The former is called "unconditional election", and the latter "reprobation". In Calvinism, some people are predestined and effectually called in due time (regenerated/born again) to faith by God.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism


...................................................................................................................................

Wondering
See my posts 244 245

 

[Avigdor]

Right.
So far no one has been able to answer this question.
Your "side" too often depends on not knowing...
God is not completely knowable...
but we do know about Him some things that the reformed
do not seem to know.

For instance....
Why God created evil...which they say He actually did create.
Why God made Covenants He knew man would not be able to keep.

Show me any place where Reformed says God created evil.
Can you answer the question of why God made covenants he knew they would not keep? I am sincerely curious to hear your answer.

 

[JLB]

JLB
Those of the reformed/calvinist beliefs tend to quote men because it is these men that have changed the meaning of God's character and the meaning of bible verses.
OzSpen would like to use the scriptures instead....but the reformed have a great deal of respect for their "leaders" and it is not wrong to quote them if it could be shown that the member does not understnd something about the very beliefs they are espousing.

P.S. I've had to post John Piper a couple of times (I think on this very thread) because one of the members thinks I don't understand calvinism....so I have to post a calvinist that is the top preacher to show her that I DO undesrstand calvinism and that Piper agrees with what I'm stating and not what SHE is stating.

I see that the word Sovereign has evolved into a meaning the scriptures never intended.

God is a Potentate, a Sovereign a ruler; more specifically He is the Lord of lords and King of kings.


Because He is the Supreme Ruler of heaven and earth, He is to be obeyed.


This however, is sadly not the case, because He has chosen to give the earth to the sons of men.


The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
Psalms 115:16


All understanding of God being Sovereign, must be framed within the boundaries of this understanding that God has given men, dominion and authority to rule on earth.

Men must seek God’s will for their area of responsibility here on earth, and seek to see His will done and pray for His kingdom to come, on earth as it is in heaven.


This is a choice each person must make, and bear the consequences of their actions.




JLB

 

[Avigdor]

What come first; believing or salvation ?

Some people believe that a person must be saved first, then they can believe the Gospel.


Jesus taught believe and be saved.


JLB

Yes, I do believe that a person won't believe until they have been reborn of God. It is the rebirth, the softening of our hard hearts, the gift of faith, that makes us willing and able to believe. This work of the Holy Spirit on our hearts is salvation. The new birth and faith happen together but it is not faith that causes the new birth. Logic and Scripture would say such a process, faith-new birth is backwards.
As for Jesus teaching believe and be saved, you interpret that statement to be an order of salvation, (understandably) but when you look at other scriptures, "no one can come to Me unless the Father draws them----". and many more. I won't go through them because they have been presented a zillion times and I'm sure you know them. These other scriptures point to the correct interpretation to be that is not the order of salvation that Jesus is giving, but the content of salvation. Belief.

 

[jasonc]

Because you should have learned this in ANY Christian church.
I'm sad that it took Calvinism to make you understand it.

You will find here,most of the stronger churches are reformed .


Plenty of old historic churches here in my,county are apostate .

Do take that into consideration

 

[GodsGrace]

Believing is a work. John 6:29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” The dictionary defines work as "to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity'.
The issue we have is whether the work is God's or ours. Eph. 2:8-9 says God did the work by giving us the gift of faith.


I agree that repenting is an action we must take. We disagree as to why we take this action. I say God makes us a new creature with a mind that wants to repent. You say we decide to repent without God's intervention.
The bible also says we cannot repent of ourselves (I gave 20 verses showing we are not, of ourselves, capable of repenting (total depravity).

Verses showing repentance is from God:
Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior and Deliverer, in order to grant repentance to Israel, and [to grant] forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18b “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance that leads to eternal life [that is, real life after earthly death].”

2 Timothy 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant [God’s initiative; not man’s] that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],

There are no verses saying we repent freely (without God's influence/permission/calling).

I believe I missed this post.....Sorry.

You bring up two points...
One is whether or not faith is a work.
I do believe I've addressed this, but will repeat.
If faith is a work....then what does the very verse YOU brought up mean??

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It was YOU that explained to ME that IT in the above verse refers to FAITH.
I agreed.
If FAITH is the gift of God....
then how could it be a work?
Something is either a gift or a work.
If I have to work for something,,,it is not a gift.

Faith is NOT a work.
Works do NOT save us...only FAITH does.
Hebrews 6:1
1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,



...........................................................................................................................................
As to John 6:29
29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

So you're saying that because of the above verse you think that believing/faith is a work?
You realize that this would mean there is a conflict between John 6 and Ephesians 2?

Since the N.T. cannot contain a conflict we must find a reconciliation.

John 6:29 happens right after the feeding of more than 5,000 persons that were following Jesus that day near the Sea of Galilee and then went to Capernum to find Jesus t he next day.

Jesus told them that they should look for food that does not perish but should instead seek everlasting life that Jesus could give them.
John 6:27

The crowd wanted to know what they could do to find favor with God , to do, or work, what God would want them to.
John 6:28

Jesus replied and told them that what they could do to find favor with God was to BELIEVE in the One God had sent. (Jesus of course).
John 6:29

This is what John 6:29 means...any other rendering is going beyond what it states.
Very bad hermeneutics.

AND,,, ONCE AGAIN...we see the ordo salutis:
To find favor with God...
we MUST BELIEVE.

Jesus gives this INSTRUCTION...He does NOT say to do nothing because God will make the decision as to the salvation of each of them...

Jesus instructs them to BELIEVE.

BELIEVE----- AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Acts 16:31

 

[jasonc]

My gosh Aigdor.
You don't even know it, but you're a regular Christian and not a calvinist Christian.
Everything you state above is NORMAL "" Christianity.

The reformed (calvinist) believe that God CAUSES evil.

I even posted a video on this from John Piper....the Pope of Calvinism/reformed.

Here it is again....
You should really watch it.
If you don't want to hear too much about dust motes....start at about 2.0

The pope ,look he is used by,my pastor at times but he isn't tied to or with the arp.the asociation of reformed Presbyterians .which is the oldest if the reformed Presbyterians.

It also has its own seminary in coral ridge ,Knox seminary

 

[Fastfredy0]

What do you mean by God is Sovereign?

Good question. People talk past each other if the subject and even some words are not defined. (Even then they talk past each other, just less ... lol)

My definition of Sovereign in regards to God:
Ephesians 1:11b Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will. Granted, everyone agrees with that, so I will define the terms further.
"Everything" - there is nothing created that was not created by God. All things (everything) created by God (not exceptions) are controlled by God. R.C. Sproul states “If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled.”
Control (Providence) - God determines what 'everything' will do at all times
Control How - by "making" (active) something occur or "allowing" (passive) something to occur.
Control in Regard to the Actions of Men - God (the first cause) uses men (second cause) to accomplish His purpose. Men act freely doing what they desire; God controls what they desire.
God's Purpose - to manifest his glorify and for His please

Aside: Control/providence better defined by https://www.apuritansmind.com/westminster-standards/chapter-5/ ... but, for brevity sake, I gave short answer above and skipped validating scripture.

What I believe most people's definition of Sovereignty of God :
It cannot be said that everything that happens is intended by God for God has chosen to exercise general rather than meticulous providence. God has chosen not to tightly control everything that happens and so, at times, his will for us may be thwarted. Sometimes God alone decides what shall be but most often, with regard to human action, God initiates and solicits our cooperation. Also, God is omnipotent and so could have prevented each and every act of sin had he so chosen. But God granted us libertarian freedom and so God has chosen to exercise general rather than meticulous providence. Hence, the divine will can, for some things, be thwarted and this means that God takes some risks regarding human sin.

When God created he did not have a blueprint for everything in creation. Instead, he had a destination in mind and desired to take a journey with us. Both the ultimate goal and the boundaries of the journey are set by the creator but many of the specifics of the course are set by both God and humans as we travel together in history. Freewill theists believe that God is flexible and resourceful in working with us in life.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Grace is the means by which God enables a person to repent.

Well, I would say the GRACE is the attribute of God's essence that motivates Him to enable us to repent. I would say the means is the action (regeneration) of the Spirit which at the moment of salvation includes:
Faith and Repentance (conversion)
Spiritual Baptism by which we are now "in Christ"
Indwelling of the Spirit (Spirit taking greater control of us for our benefit by changing of desires; making us more likely to obey ... sanctification)
Sealing - preservation of our salvation
... lot of other 'kool' stuff
... probably, to the crux of the disagreement ... I save regeneration precedes faith (logically) and I assume you say Faith precedes regeneration (logically)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

Agreed. This does not address what is think the issue is at hand: does Faith precedes regeneration (logically) (I think that is the issue... you can correct me if I am wrong)

Man works in concert with the power of God‘s Spirit to believe and therefore obey the Gospel.

Agreed. Again, the question at hand (IMO) in regards to God's sovereignty (control) is: Why does man work in concert? Is if because God has given him an new heart (regeneration) or is man, independent of God, deciding to belief?

 

[Fastfredy0]

By saying the Spirit regenerates first, are you saying a person must be regenerated first, then they believe?

YES, YES ... I believe the is the CRUX of the discussion. Does a sovereign God control whether we salvificly believe (Faith) or is man independent of God in this matter.
In regards to the sovereignty of God. I say he controls everything and I believe you say God controls almost everything. Whether we believe of not is an exception.

Faith comes by hearing God.
Once man hears, he must obey in order to activate the faith he received from hearing.

Agreed. Again, the crux of the issue is ... Why (the cause) did a man believe. These statements, that we both agree to, does not answer that question.

____________
Man is not capable of believing on his own thus God must do it for him via given him faith as part of regeneration:

• Luke 16:31 And he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to [the messages of] Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’
• Romans 3:11 No one understands [divine things]; no one seeks for God.
• 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural [unregenerate] person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God [regeneration comes from the Spirit of God], for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually [the Holy Spirit] discerned.

I can give another 40ish verses, you get the idea.

Then there are copuous verses saying God chooses, it is God's will, salvific analogies suggesting man is incapable, verses showing God will decides who is saved irregardless of man's will, (John 1:12-13), faith come from God, repentance if from God, ...

Your main 2 arguments (I assume, correct if wrong ... you get to determine your own arguments ... ) are:
1) God loves everyone without exception (I don't agree, but that is for another day) and therefore gives everyone a chance to believe.
2) God wouldn't ask us to do something we are not capable of, therefore, anything asked of us implies we can do it. Example: You must believe to be saved therefore it is implied that we can do it ourselves.

 

[GodsGrace]

We have been over this before, others besides me too, and you didn't accept it then and probably won't now. I am stating a fact, not an accusation.
The reformed do not say that God chooses for no reason at all. They say is choosing is not based on any merit in those He chooses. Not how good or bad we are, what we will accomplish or have done. Those He chooses have no merit of their own. That does not mean He has no reason for choosing who He does. He always has a reason for everything He does or He wouldn't be God. If I can say that, believe that, as Reformed, how can you say we believe God chooses for no reason at all? WE don't know His reason, which doesn't mean He doesn't have one.
And again, Choosing some to save isn't giving to everyone what they deserve (justice) it is giving some mercy.

Avigdon,,,
I posted from Calvin's Institutes, what more could I do?
Is God just if HE decides who will be damned forever without even giving man a chance for salvation?

If man is to have this chance, then certainly God will allow us to KNOW HOW to save ourselves.
If God does all the choosing and we just sit by and maybe end up in hell, how is that JUST?

I understand your point about how we all deserve hell when we're born...
but isn't THE GOOD NEWS the fact that we can save ourselves?
What exactly do you think the GOOD NEWS is??
Why do you think the N.T. was written?
So we could hear how God is just going to choose some people for heaven and some for hell?
HOW is that good news?

In Matthew 4:17 Jesus gives a strong instruction.
He says to REPENT for the Kingdom of God is near.

WHY would Jesus tell us to repent if He knows that it is GOD that is going to make us repent or not? If He knows that it is GOD that is going to regenerate us first and then save us? (which is backwards BTW, I know you don't agree).

Check this out:
John 8:51
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

Jesus said IF anyone keeps My word....
IF means we can keep it or not...
we can never see death, or we can see death IF we DO NOT keep His word.

There is so much scripture like this.

Is there a feeling that it is unfair? Does it look that way at first glance? Sure. But we have to remember here, we are the creatures and He is the Creator. He is the one who truly knows justice and mercy as they are part of Him. To me, letting us fend for ourselves, make our own choice with this God forsaken "free will" seems unfair and unjust. I would much rather trust my salvation to the Almighty God, who cares for the widow and the orphan, the downtrodden and the devastated and hears our cries for mercy, who
recognize it when it falls on them and her grateful with a bottomless gratitude.

God bless. I know you are sleeping as I write this. so I guess---good morning?

We are not "fending for ourselves" by believing that we can choose to obey Jesus and receive everlasting life.

In fact, we are totally helpless by waiting around to see if God picks us...
if we're lucky enough.

And did you read my link to Calvin's Institutes stating that God makes some THINK they are saved only to take salvation away later.

How does that make you feel secure in your salvation?
How do you know you are not one of the temporarily saved persons?

im which is injurious to the Church. 5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. We, indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former (see chap. 22 sec. 1). When we attribute prescience to God, we mean that all things always were, and ever continue, under his eye; that to his knowledge there is no past or future, but all things are present, and indeed so present, that it is not merely the idea of them that is before him (as those objects are which we retain in our memory), but that he truly sees and contemplates them as actually under his immediate inspection. This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

page 568 The Institutes


: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

page 606

 

[Avigdor]

I understand your point about how we all deserve hell when we're born...
but isn't THE GOOD NEWS the fact that we can save ourselves?
What exactly do you think the GOOD NEWS is??
Why do you think the N.T. was written?
So we could hear how God is just going to choose some people for heaven and some for hell?
HOW is that good news?

I don't know anywhere in the NT that says the good news is that we can save ourselves.
The good news, the Gospel is that a Savior has come. Romans 10:17. "So faith comes from hearing----". Even God won't give you faith in something you have never heard. It is good news to the elect, judgement to the rest. If your reasoning is followed through, the good news should really be that we are all saved. The NT is for the ones who came after, us, so we hear.
John8:47 "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." The elect respond in faith because their ears have been opened so that they hear (understand and believe what is being said.) The non elect consider it foolishness. AS we all did at one time if we look back on our lives. It is not for us to pass judgement on how and why God does things. We are not the stewards of God's fairness and justice. We nearly always make those determination based on gut reaction and feelings. Which is never a sound base for searching out God's truth.
Where is God, more importantly, where is Jesus in the statement that we can save ourselves? That is the opposite of what the NT teaches.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Psalm 5:5 (ESV) does not teach what you claim: Look at the context in vv 3-6:

For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you.5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.6 You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
This is saying, in OT terms, that no evil/wickedness will enter God's presence.

I am confused. I have Psalm 5:5 which in part says "You hate all who do evil" to show God hates some people and you say this does teach what I claim. I don't understand.

Tom Constable commentary on Psalm 5:
God hates and destroys liars, deceivers, and murderers.

"The LORD 'hates' the wicked in the sense that he despises their wicked character and deeds and actively opposes and judges them for their wickedness. See Ps 11:5."[140]

"… if He did not hate evil (xi. 5 [sic 4]), His love would not be a holy love."
Granted, just because Tom C. says so, doesn't make me right, but I don't follow your conclusion at all.
Later you seem to agree that God hate's all evil doers: "To say that God hates 'all evil doers' falls in line with Paul's statement in 1 Cor 6:9-11 "
So the end result, seems to me, is that we both think God hates evil doers. Work for me.

Who, then, did Paul mean when he said those exposed to God's existence through general revelation are 'without excuse' (Rom 1:20 NIV)?

Hard to answer your question as I don't know where you are coming from in regards to salvific fate of people who have never heard the gosple. Are you saying it is possible that a dead, 19th century person could be saved (gone to heaven) even though he never heard the gospel?
...anyways, the verse means people who die today (for example) are in hell for their unbelief and that they have no excuse as God revealed himself to them via general revelation (His creation).

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

It's a shame we call it 'libertarian free will' because secular libertarians have a strong anti-authority sense. As one to agrees with libertarian free will, I mean that from Adam & Eve right down to us, God has granted all of us the power of free choice.

It started with the choice to obey or disobey God over the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To contemporary people, they can choose to buy cabanossi (which I did yesterday) & am munching on now. I could have, with the power of alternative choice, chosen some salami or frankfurts.

When it comes to choosing which god/God we serve, God has given us the choice. How do we know? He has stated it clearly for the Israelites:

"Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." Then the people answered, "Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods! (Joshua 24:14-16 NIV).​

I was so disturbed by a Calvinistic pastor when I heard him preach on this passage that I wrote this article: Choose does not mean choice! Joshua 24:15.

AND, I ask, can this choice extend to salvation? See: Can people choose to reject salvation?

Oz

Hi Oz,,,
I read the articles.
We sure could use you on this thread because two of our members do believe that we must be generated first and then we believe....this is the ordo salutis of the reformed, as you know,,,but is not taught in scripture or was believed by the ECFs who knew the Apostles and their teachings.

As to Joshua 24.15, I have often cited this verse to show that man has free will because he is given a choice --- and not only in this verse. The reply is always that Joshua was making them choose between the false god and the true God of the Hebrews. My reply is SO WHAT?
The point is that CHOICE denotes a freedom to make that choice.
Choice denotes free will and libertarian free will.

Not libertarian as in politics!!

 

[Fastfredy0]

Do you really understand what empirical science is? If so, how could I prove God by empirical science?

I have a degree in science so I have some idea of what it involves.
I didn't ask you to prove God. I asked you to demonstrate "free will" via observation.

empirical means based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.
Science means - systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

So, we what are we testing ... your claim that you have "free will" against the biblical statements concerning the DEPRAVITY OF MAN as presented in the bible
What is "free will" ... your ability to do something independent of outside influence (satan, sin nature)
To be observed: Can you stop sinning.
What is our definition of "sinning": You must obey God with all your mind, soul and heart.

Test Results: Yet to be determined, that is the challenge.

Conclusions: Granted the sample size is small and we don't have peer review ... but if you can truely stop sinning then we have good evidence for "free will".