IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Many Calvinists do not believe God causes evil. Most Reformed theology teaches God's exhaustive sovereignty but it also affirms human responsibility. These Calvinists do not believe God causes evil. See Eph 1:11. I, and many Calvinists, don't understand how God's full sovereignty and uncompromised human responsibility work together. For an example of this Calvinistic thinking, see HERE.

John Piper has a reputation of being an extreme Calvinist, a supralapsarian.

Oz

I agree and must say that within that belief is the fact that IF God is a deterministic God, then HE has predestined everything,,,and within that everything has to be our actions and everything that man does or does not do.

IF it is GOD that determines all my actions, then how could I possibly be held responsible for my actions? This makes no logical sense. Calvinism strives to understand something that is not understandable, and so we hear that we are not supposed to understand what God does not want us to.

Then why would God reveal Himself at all to us?
I do not agree with any Calvinist thinking because God created us in HIS image,,,,,
He is a logical God...and so we, by consequence, must also be logical in our understanding of Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe I didn't have the correct post. Going back through them at that point in the day was exhausting. In my memory my response "How is that not controling every thing?" was in regards to your question about what I meant by second causes and I no longer remember what your response was that made me respond with above question.
It doesn't matter, I think we are on the same page there anyway since you gave me a like.

Yes well, I'm sure we agree on much more than we disagree on.
But it's good to share thoughts.
As you can see, I don't dwell on any one topic or verse for very long.
It's not useful....

 

[GodsGrace]

Not to get touchy here Oz, It wasn't me that put myself under that label Calvinist. I believe what I believe from my own extensive study of resources, always checking with scripture. I don't fall into a category that stays within the boundaries squished into a label. I think for myself. To suggest that I obtain a broader understanding of what Calvinism teaches, so that my beliefs fall consistently beneath that label, is sort of insulting. I am not saying that you insulted me, just that I find that kind of remark, innocent though it was, a suggestion that my intelligence may be compromised. and an insult to my freedom as an individual to make up my own mind about what I believe.

Avigdor,,,I think what the other member is saying is what I also say at times.
I'll say something that is calvin's teaching and then you reply to me telling me I don't understand Calvinism.

I accept that you are not 100% reformed/calvinist in beliefs because it's apparent....but this is the exact reason why you should maybe accept how I explain calvinism at times?

See what I mean?
No one here is saying you're not smart/intelligent.

I myself also hate labels, unless I fit under it.
I'm called an Arminian at times and I don't even know what he believed.

 

[GodsGrace]

The question is, What was in Piper's mind when he said those words? What did he actually mean by them? Well, only Piper knows for sure. But what he does not say is that God causes evil. He says the God governs evil. (On the point of"through intermediaries such as angels" I am not sure I understand exactly what he means, though ofcourse God can do anything in whatever way He wants.) We do have the example of satan's conversation with God in Job.

Causing and governing are two different things entirely. That evil exists in our world now is because we took into ourselves (via Adam and Eve) the knowledge of good and evil.
That doesn't mean God caused it, even though He knew from always that we would commit this act of treason. Let me propose here a truth that seems to be ignored concerning the existence of evil. If one thing exists, good, the opposite will also exist, evil. If you have an up, of necessity there is a down. If there is a front, of necessity there will be a back. We have the knowledge and experience of evil because of our treason against God. And God governs it to fulfill His purposes. (Job again) He could have done things entirely differently, a way that our humanity would find more to our liking and easier for us to understand, but He didn't.

You see...now you sound like a regular Christian again.

Want some adivce?
Keep repeating that you are not calvinist but that "THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE."

That might be a good idea....
you're kind of right in the middle of the two belief systems.

 

[GodsGrace]

Show me any place where Reformed says God created evil.
Can you answer the question of why God made covenants he knew they would not keep? I am sincerely curious to hear your answer.

A,,,I've already posted Piper TWO TIMES where he states unequivocally that God CREATED evil and we don't know why but for His own purposes.

Also, if we're to believe that God is a deterministic God that PREDESTINED every little thing in the universe, then it stands to reason that God also created evil, and did not just allow it - as EVERY CHRISTIAN believes.

You're doing it again: Misrepresenting the reformed beliefs. If you don't want to be labeled a REFORMED....then maybe you could stop supporting them?

As to the covenants...I asked your first!!
I didn't get a reply.

But you want me to explain why God made a covenant He knew people wouldn't keep.
OK....so I'll answer you.

Most of God's Covenants are Uni-lateral....and Unconditional.
God makes a decision and He lets man know about it...but man has nothing to do with this decision....God will make His plan come to completion without the help of man.
Uni-Lateral Covenants would include:
Abrahamic
Palestinian
Davidic
Adamic
Noahic
I would put the New Covenant here, but some theologians would disagree.

The Edenic and Mosaic Covenants are Bi-Lateral and Conditional.
God made an agreement with man and man was supposed to keep his side of the covenant.

Bi-Later and Conditional Covenants were made with man because:
God wanted man to honor Him and vice-versa
God wanted man to understand that God cared for him and wanted to protect him.
God wanted man to know that he had fellowship with God.
God wanted man to learn fidelity and submission.
God wanted man TO BE A PARTNER IN HIS SALVATION.
God wanted man to ACCEPT the covenant and not feel forced to submit to God.

I realize that the reformed must have problems with the Covenants.
Maybe that's why special books have to be written like the one you read.

Why did that author say Bi-Lateral Covenants are necessary?
Why make ANY covenant at all if God has determined/predestined EVERYTHING???

I answered,,,,
now it's your turn.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see that the word Sovereign has evolved into a meaning the scriptures never intended.

God is a Potentate, a Sovereign a ruler; more specifically He is the Lord of lords and King of kings.


Because He is the Supreme Ruler of heaven and earth, He is to be obeyed.


This however, is sadly not the case, because He has chosen to give the earth to the sons of men.


The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
Psalms 115:16


All understanding of God being Sovereign, must be framed within the boundaries of this understanding that God has given men, dominion and authority to rule on earth.

Men must seek God’s will for their area of responsibility here on earth, and seek to see His will done and pray for His kingdom to come, on earth as it is in heaven.


This is a choice each person must make, and bear the consequences of their actions.




JLB

You don't have to convince me!
I agree with your every word.

But since reformed beliefs go so much out of the texts of scripture,,,,often
the theologians of the reformed are mentioned.

If you notice,,,the Westminster Confession is always brought up.
Could you imagine speaking to a Catholic here and the use the CCC for support!
It would be unacceptable, but somehow we're expected to trust in the W.C.

Men brainwash us....
we should ONLY read scripture and check everything just like the Baraens did, Acts 17.

We should only use the preaching of men for edification or to learn something that is CLEARLY biblical.

I sometimes read the ECFs and I've stated why many times,,,but that's all.
And FIRST comes the bible.

If we read ONLY the bible, I don't know how reformed beliefs could ever come to be believed.

 

[Avigdor]

A,,,I've already posted Piper TWO TIMES where he states unequivocally that God CREATED evil and we don't know why but for His own purposes.

If I remember correctly without going back to look, Piper said God controlled evil, not that He created it. There is a big difference.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Holy Spirit that gives gift of life

Re: Constant attacks in regards to the content of what Reform people believe; specifically, reform preaches that God creates sin and if you are reformed you must believe it or you do not understand what REFORMED theology.

My sympathies. It is one thing to have someone disagree with what you believe and another to be told what you believe. Worst, is to be told incorrectly what you believe. Keep up the good fight sister.

Westminster Confession:
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; (a) yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,(b) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.(c)

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

1689 Baptist Confession Chapter 3
1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

 

[GodsGrace]

You will find here,most of the stronger churches are reformed .


Plenty of old historic churches here in my,county are apostate .

Do take that into consideration

I'm finding that out!

 

[Fastfredy0]

LOL... it's a theological donnybrook (a scene of uproar and disorder; a heated argument) in here.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know anywhere in the NT that says the good news is that we can save ourselves.

Who said we save ourselves?????
Isn't it Jesus that saves us?
Didn't we already agree on Ephesians 2:8-9?
Didn't we already agree that works do not save? Every Christian knows this.

The good news, the Gospel is that a Savior has come. Romans 10:17. "So faith comes from hearing----". Even God won't give you faith in something you have never heard. It is good news to the elect, judgement to the rest.

A Savior has come.
So what? What's it to me IF I have no choice to accept Him or not????
Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel.
Mark 1:15
15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

You're going to still have to explain to us all WHY Jesus would make such silly comments unless He meant them for EVERYONE that wished to hear what He had to say.

First of all, the ordo salutis is:
REPENT
BELIEVE

I'll repeat every time I come upon it because the N.T. is chock full of the ordo salutis even though the reformed have it backwards.

You said above that faith comes by hearing...
RIGHT.
Why should we hear anything IF it's God that determines who is to be saved?

I'd really like a reply to this.

If your reasoning is followed through, the good news should really be that we are all saved. The NT is for the ones who came after, us, so we hear.
John8:47 "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Why do we get to universalism if my reasoning is followed through?
How many times have I stated that God has set CONDITIONS for us to become saved?
We must accept those conditions if we are to be saved.
WHOEVER believes in the Son...WILL BE SAVED. John 3:16
Whoever follows the commandments of Jesus WILL BE SAVED.
John 15:14
14“You are My friends if you do what I command you.

IF is a conditional word.
IF we do what Jesus commands us, we are His friends.
IF means that we may, or may NOT, do as He commands.
Free Will choice to obey Him or not.

The elect respond in faith because their ears have been opened so that they hear (understand and believe what is being said.) The non elect consider it foolishness. AS we all did at one time if we look back on our lives. It is not for us to pass judgement on how and why God does things. We are not the stewards of God's fairness and justice. We nearly always make those determination based on gut reaction and feelings. Which is never a sound base for searching out God's truth.
Where is God, more importantly, where is Jesus in the statement that we can save ourselves? That is the opposite of what the NT teaches.

I don't go but gut feelings....
I go by scripture.
I agree that the unsaved do not hear God.
1 Corinthians 2:14
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

You keep referring to the elect.
Could you give me a verse showing that we are elected....
And what does elected mean?

 

[Fastfredy0]

It’s a friendly way of saying... just my two cents.

What does 'Just sayin....

Girls, girls ...stop fighting .... We all say something that goes over the line. Kiss your 'brother' and make up ...

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL... it's a theological donnybrook (a scene of uproar and disorder; a heated argument) in here.

See Fred,,,,
This is common.
When the kitchen gets too hot,,,the reform go back to their friends to find solice.

You just told Avigdon that we are attacking and misrepresenting the reformed beliefs.

Did you ever reply to Piper's YouTube explanation of how God created evil?
No.
Why?

Then you post the Westminster Confession again.

Why don't you use the bible?
I answered all your verses when posted one or two at a time.

Why are you leaving us?
I'm NOT leaving because I'm SURE I'm in tune with God's character.

You're welcomed to come back anytime.
I didn't notice any attacks...

 

[GodsGrace]

Re: Constant attacks in regards to the content of what Reform people believe; specifically, reform preaches that God creates sin and if you are reformed you must believe it or you do not understand what REFORMED theology.

My sympathies. It is one thing to have someone disagree with what you believe and another to be told what you believe. Worst, is to be told incorrectly what you believe. Keep up the good fight sister.

Westminster Confession:
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; (a) yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,(b) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.(c)

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

1689 Baptist Confession Chapter 3
1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

Fred,,,,
In your own words...
tell me how God decrees all things to come to pass....
ALL THINGS
and yet is not the author of sin.

Why does Piper disagree with you?
At least Piper makes sense even if I don't agree.

How would I attend a church that states:
GOD CAUSES ALL AND HAS PREDESTINED ALL....
BUT
HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SIN.

Huh?
I'd be out of there in two minutes flat.

 

[Avigdor]

Also, if we're to believe that God is a deterministic God that PREDESTINED every little thing in the universe, then it stands to reason that God also created evil, and did not just allow it - as EVERY CHRISTIAN believes.

I can sort of see how you reach that conclusion but there is something faulty about. I'll see if I can pin point it and put it into words. He may have predestined that evil things happen, (in fact I don't think evil is created. Go into that in a bit.), and then is also allowing it, but that does not equal God creating evil. Anyway, if there is evil (which there is) and if it is created as you say, and we don't or don't want to ascribe that to God, then who created it? Is there another creator.
Evil does not exist in God so He could not create it. As for predestining evil or allowing it, the difference is small, allowing it would make Him just as responsible as predestining it.

Since there is only One Creator, and since there is no evil in God therefore He couldn't create it, evil must not be a creation.
I went over this in a post to Oz. Everthing of necessity has its opposite or neither exist. Maybe not everything, I would have to think about that more than I want to, but my illustrations should prove my point. If you have an up, there is of necessity a down, otherwise there would not be an up or a down. If you have a front, of necessity there is a back. If you have good, there is of necessity, evil. Holy, unholy etc. Evil isn't a creation anymore than good is. Good comes from God because it a part of Him. Evil is the "other side of that coin" which we (Adam and Eve) took into ourselves when are of the knowledge of good and evil. Ofcourse it exists in our world.
Calvinist say God predestines things that are evil, not that He creates that evil, or causes it to happen. Think of this:The Jewish leaders turned Jesus over to Pilate to be crucified. A very evil act. Yet it is exactly what was a part of OT prophecy, exactly what God predestined to happen. But God did not make those men evil. It was their own evil plan, therefore they are responsible to God for their actions, even though it accomplished His purpose and was predestined by Him. Of course in this case, you would probably call that justice.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a degree in science so I have some idea of what it involves.
I didn't ask you to prove God. I asked you to demonstrate "free will" via observation.

empirical means based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.
Science means - systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

So, we what are we testing ... your claim that you have "free will" against the biblical statements concerning the DEPRAVITY OF MAN as presented in the bible
What is "free will" ... your ability to do something independent of outside influence (satan, sin nature)
To be observed: Can you stop sinning.
What is our definition of "sinning": You must obey God with all your mind, soul and heart.

Test Results: Yet to be determined, that is the challenge.

Conclusions: Granted the sample size is small and we don't have peer review ... but if you can truely stop sinning then we have good evidence for "free will".

Fred,,,,
Why would my ability to stop sinning prove I have Free Will?

(did I understand?)

 

[Avigdor]

Who said we save ourselves?????

you did. You asked isn't the good news that we have a chance to save ourselves. Maybe you didn't mean it like that. Don't know post # and am not going back, but my post must have quoted yours.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fred,,,,
Why would my ability to stop sinning prove I have Free Will?

(did I understand?)

It would prove, in my mind, that you can demonstrate the ability to overcome your sin nature; thus, convincing me that "free will" exists. That is my logic (seems to follow).

To ask you a question, if you are truly "free" to decide what to do, why wouldn't you be able to stop sinning?

 

[Avigdor]

Re: Constant attacks in regards to the content of what Reform people believe; specifically, reform preaches that God creates sin and if you are reformed you must believe it or you do not understand what REFORMED theology.

My sympathies. It is one thing to have someone disagree with what you believe and another to be told what you believe. Worst, is to be told incorrectly what you believe. Keep up the good fight sister.

Gosh don't I know it! No matter how many times the mis information is explained people keep making the same accusations, and always if they half way agree it is because I need to study further what Calvinisim teaches. Telling me what label to crawl under and stay there. Telling me what I believe. It is good to not feel so alone and I thank you for that. I never try to get someone to believe as I do, just understand what I am saying, instead of telling me what I am saying. Still, I enjoy the exchanges for the most part, and it as excellent exercise in thinking! Also,it is for me a good test of listening to the council of God's word, instead of flying off the handle, as is my basic nature to do. I fully understand the concept as words being like swords.

 

[GodsGrace]

It would prove, in my mind, that you can demonstrate the ability to overcome your sin nature; thus, convincing me that "free will" exists. That is my logic (seems to follow).

To ask you a question, if you are truly "free" to decide what to do, why wouldn't you be able to stop sinning?

You know that Wesley berlieved we could be sin free in this life...total sanctification.
It has never been proven ! Even the Nazarene church has moved away from this doctrine.

We cannot overcome our sin nature. Not sure overcome is the right word and I'm getting too tired to think...just hoping you understand me.

Our sin nature remains with us till we die. Some Christians believe it becomes removed from our nature....I've learned that it remains with us but is under submission.
Paul says that if we walk in the spirit we will not satisfy the desires of the flesh.
He doesn't mean that we will never sin....but that walking in the flesh will satisfy only the flesh.
Romans....if we sin more, we get more grace....MAY IT NEVER BE!

But the Holy Spirit helps us to subdue the sin nature.
We our slaves of the one to whom we present ourselves. Romans 6.
We are now slaves to God and no longer to satan...but we will still sin, but much less indeed.

John says that if we say we do not sin, we lie.
However, as John says in 1 John 3:9 we no longer live A LIFE OF SIN.
Big difference.