IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[jasonc]

Jason,,,
The 613 laws were given to the Israelites.
The whole world does not consist of Israelites.

But God is God of the whole world.

But the point is even those laws couldn't make men moral enough and those include the naohide ones.

To assume that some isolated culture values the same values from God without being actually given by god is,impossible .

Noah was given laws to obey ,

The others in the naohide stem from other accounts .

Idolatry is one .

Good luck with that .

 

[JLB]

If a person is morally up right then he would have to perfectly line up with what God says,

Sorry the 613 doesn't get you,there .

I never mentioned 613.

How about the laws Noah kept?


JLB

 

[JLB]

If a person is morally up right then he would have to perfectly line up with what God says,

Sorry the 613 doesn't get you,there .

But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Acts 10:35


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If you were around,,,,then yes.
But you weren't around, so I'm not sure.
Oh. Ok. I said good night to you too.
So now you have to post something serious.
:yes

Are you saying I'm not serious?
How foolish of you.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I never mentioned 613.

How about the laws Noah kept?


JLB

That sounds more Talmidic than Biblical.

 

[jasonc]

But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Acts 10:35


JLB

Faith coming by hearing .meanibg they have to be told ,why would God fully reveal himself to men when they could and on. Their own find God and on their own without the blood live perfect .

See job 9 ,and Ezekiel 22 on that.

Sorry our bend to sin is so string we will not want God or even reach to God without God stirring the contact first

Its because he. First loved us ,not because we loved God first .

god choose Abraham .he wanted isreal to be .

 

[GodsGrace]

But the point is even those laws couldn't make men moral enough and those include the naohide ones.

To assume that some isolated culture values the same values from God without being actually given by god is,impossible .

Noah was given laws to obey ,

The others in the naohide stem from other accounts .

Idolatry is one .

Good luck with that .

Idolatry is worshiping a false god.
But there is only ONE GOD.

As to isolated cultures and values....
Do you think isolated cultures don't have values?

What about the Natural Law?

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith coming by hearing .meanibg they have to be told ,why would God fully reveal himself to men when they could and on. Their own find God and on their own without the blood live perfect .

See job 9 ,and Ezekiel 22 on that.

Sorry our bend to sin is so string we will not want God or even reach to God without God stirring the contact first

Its because he. First loved us ,not because we loved God first .

god choose Abraham .he wanted isreal to be .

This is for JLB,,,,but I'll say that God ALWAYS makes the first move.
God is evident in creation.
Some just don't want to see it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you saying I'm not serious?
How foolish of you.

So what do you say?
Can a person that is aware of God Almighty,
and honors Him,
and lives by the Natural Laws,
but never heard the gospel,
still be saved?

 

[jasonc]

Idolatry is worshiping a false god.
But there is only ONE GOD.

As to isolated cultures and values....
Do you think isolated cultures don't have values?

What about the Natural Law?

Idolatry as defined by our faith ,

Any other thing that isn't the true God .

Athiests ,agnostics deny any ,all others fail to reach the right one .
On that alone morality is irreverent ,

Moral and good according God implies knowing what God is and being in a right standing.

A Muslim will have these .

Forninicatiob is bad ,adultery ,lying ,theft too.

Does that mean he is a. Up right moral person to God ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Idolatry as defined by our faith ,

Any other thing that isn't the true God .

Athiests ,agnostics deny any ,all others fail to reach the right one .
On that alone morality is irreverent ,

Moral and good according God implies knowing what God is and being in a right standing.

A Muslim will have these .

Forninicatiob is bad ,adultery ,lying ,theft too.

Does that mean he is a. Up right moral person to God ?

I don't understand Jason.
I'm not talking about atheists or agnostics.
I'm talking about persons that KNOW GOD in their spirit and desire to honor and worship Him.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So what do you say?
Can a person that is aware of God Almighty,
and honors Him,
and lives by the Natural Laws,
but never heard the gospel,
still be saved?

Of course, silly...

 

[Avigdor]

Matthew 26:27-28

Jesus' blood is shed for the whole world.
Paul says that Jesus' blood is shed for the whole world.
Jesus says for many.

Paul is referring to the atonement of Jesus,,,that is is for everyone in the world.
Everyone who is saved is saved through the blood of Christ, as God planned from the beginning.

The many that Jesus is referring to is in reference to those that will take advantage of this atonement and propitiation on their behalf.

Not everyone will.

Jesus' statement must be reconciled with Paul's or we have a conflict with sotereology...and not a small one.

Here is how I would reconcile it. When Paul says "the whole world" he means Jew and Gentile (a summarized explanation.) All nations, races, gender of the world, not each individual in the world. That would also reconcile it to the many. As you said, "everyone saved is saved through the blood of Jesus. (Which is different from what you said in a previous post, that people who haven't heard the gospel can be saved through natural knowledge of God and obedience to His natural laws.)
The many that Jesus speaks of, according to you, are those who take advantage of this atonement. But that is only your interpretation of what it means and is based on what you already believe. Reformed say the many are the elect of God. Which is equally possible. Not in your view I understand, but objectively.
The problem is not reconciling the statements of Paul and Jesus, nor was it the question Oz asked.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Loving God = Keeping His commandments.

You didn't answer my question again.

You said that those that don't keep his

I have a couple questions for you.

1. Am I understanding you correctly that you assert unless a person can hear the gospel from another person, said person has no hope of salvation?

2. Assuming you answer in agreement with my above understanding, how do we reconcile this understanding with Romans 1:18-20?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
NKJV

My answer: 1) Yes
2) I agree with this link: https://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

I probably won't get an answer but here goes:
I am assuming you believe people that have not heard the gospel (death, resurrection, etc.) still have a chance to go to heaven. If that assumption be true I ask:
1) how do said people accomplish salvation???? (what is the method?)
2) is this method superior to hearing the gospel and believing? Like, is a bigger percentage of "people amongst those who have not heard saved" via this method than among "those hearing the gospel"? Any biblical explanation of how this works?
Caveat: This is not about 'age of accountability people (a possible loop hole )

 

[jasonc]

I don't understand Jason.
I'm not talking about atheists or agnostics.
I'm talking about persons that KNOW GOD in their spirit and desire to honor and worship Him.

You may but jlb wasn't .

One can't know God without hearing the word ,while visions may be ,still I,think,those are leading up to after hearing about Jesus .

There are things I have had .

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is how I would reconcile it. When Paul says "the whole world" he means Jew and Gentile (a summarized explanation.) All nations, races, gender of the world, not each individual in the world. That would also reconcile it to the many. As you said, "everyone saved is saved through the blood of Jesus. (Which is different from what you said in a previous post, that people who haven't heard the gospel can be saved through natural knowledge of God and obedience to His natural laws.)
The many that Jesus speaks of, according to you, are those who take advantage of this atonement. But that is only your interpretation of what it means and is based on what you already believe. Reformed say the many are the elect of God. Which is equally possible. Not in your view I understand, but objectively.
The problem is not reconciling the statements of Paul and Jesus, nor was it the question Oz asked.

I don't remember the question Oz asked.

When you say "according to you" it makes it sound like I make up my own theology.
I don't do this.

Jesus died for ALL OF HUMANITY.
His blood saves all,,,even those that don't know they are being saved by His blood.

Also, you say up above that I said something different in another post.
That's not possible...I don't change my mind on theology.
My theology is immutable.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Jesus died for ALL OF HUMANITY.

Logic 101
Premise 1 "Jesus died of ALL OF HUMANITY
Premise 2 Jesus knew a majority of humanity would not believe.
Conclusion: For a majority of humanity Jesus knowingly died in vain (producing no result; useless)

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace and favor

Who does God elect and why: 1 Corinthians 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called [effectual call]. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
Empirical evidence: If salvation includes the cooperation (free will) of man … if each individual can freely decide; then why is salvation not evenly distributed amongst all nations, races, intelligences, etc. Rather, we see that salvation was almost exclusively to the Jew from Abraham to the cross, to the lowly (1 Corinthians 1:26b-27), of the western world.

 

[OzSpen]

All this and you don’t know from reading this verse that Paul doesn't want us to be divided?

You even went so far as to say, that I took Paul’s words out of context.

What good does learning Greek and Hebrew do, if a person can’t read a verse a understand something as simple as, not having divisions among us?

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Corinthians 1:10

I believe Paul was exhorting us to be in unity, and have no divisions among us.

What do you believe?

JLB

JLB,

I've given my exegetical understanding of schisms (1 Cor 1:10 ESV). The schisms/sects in Corinth included:

• those who spoke in tongues vs those who opposed it.
• There were schisms over women speaking in the church gathering.
• schisms over women/men wearing a head covering.
• Each part of the body of Christ was of equal concern,
• Jesus' bodily resurrection vs no resurrection, etc.

Why must you dumb me down by your negative comments about learning Hebrew and Greek? If your attitude towards me continues, I will not respond.

Oz

 

[Fastfredy0]

To rule over all, one must determine all

• “God decreed from all eternity all the evil that He ever does permit, because God’s permitting is God’s forbearing to act or to prevent.
• Nothing can happen that God did not know from eternity, and therefore nothing can happen that God did not intend.
• God could not foreknow that things would be, unless he had decreed they should be. He cannot “look into the future”, so to speak, to find out what will happen for that would be knowledge acquired from learning; God is immutable and omniscient and therefore cannot learn.
• The decree of God relates to all future things without exception. Whatsoever is done in time was foreordained before time.
• That God can do anything without having decreed it, or fixed a previous plan in His own mind, would be a manifest imputation on His wisdom. If He decreed that now, or at any time, which He did not always decree, He could not be unchangeable.
• His own will is the foundation of His decrees, and His decree are the foundation of His prescience
• God never decrees to do, or to cause others to do, what He forbids. He may, as we see He does, decree to permit what He forbids. He permits men to sin, although sin is forbidden.
• The will of man is but an instrument created by God and designed by Him for the execution of His own ends.
• God’s plan comprehends all things that come to pass, whether good or bad, righteous or sinful, necessary or contingent, humanly purposed or fortuitous. Nothing is outside of God’s purpose. Paul explicitly grounds this conclusion, saying both that “all things … work together for good” for the called ones (Romans 8:28) and that “all things” occur according to “the counsel of [God’s] will” (Ephesians 1:11). “Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose—even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil” asserts that everything has been made according to a divine purpose, even the day of evil.
• If God were to wait on an undetermined condition to be fulfilled or not fulfilled, then His decrees are neither eternal nor immutable. In fact, if even just one event is left indeterminate—one speck of cosmic dust or raindrop or snowflake—all future events will be left in greater or lesser degrees of indetermination. Whatever conditions, causes, or other factors are necessary to fulfill the decreed event are themselves decreed.
• All has been determined according to the counsel of his own most holy and wise will. God’s decrees are immanent within the Godhead. Thus they cannot be dependent in any way upon anything that is not within God. All which lies outside of God is created, and is the consequence of the decree of God, not the cause of it.

 

[Avigdor]

• “God decreed from all eternity all the evil that He ever does permit, because God’s permitting is God’s forbearing to act or to prevent.
• Nothing can happen that God did not know from eternity, and therefore nothing can happen that God did not intend.
• God could not foreknow that things would be, unless he had decreed they should be. He cannot “look into the future”, so to speak, to find out what will happen for that would be knowledge acquired from learning; God is immutable and omniscient and therefore cannot learn.
• The decree of God relates to all future things without exception. Whatsoever is done in time was foreordained before time.
• That God can do anything without having decreed it, or fixed a previous plan in His own mind, would be a manifest imputation on His wisdom. If He decreed that now, or at any time, which He did not always decree, He could not be unchangeable.
• His own will is the foundation of His decrees, and His decree are the foundation of His prescience
• God never decrees to do, or to cause others to do, what He forbids. He may, as we see He does, decree to permit what He forbids. He permits men to sin, although sin is forbidden.

Agreed. These things would probably be self evident if those who disagree would gather the courage to look at God as He is, God, instead of God as they think He should be.