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IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

Fastfredy0 said:
You didn't answer my question again.

You said that those that don't keep his


My answer: 1) Yes
2) I agree with this link: https://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

I probably won't get an answer but here goes:
I am assuming you believe people that have not heard the gospel (death, resurrection, etc.) still have a chance to go to heaven. If that assumption be true I ask:
1) how do said people accomplish salvation???? (what is the method?)
2) is this method superior to hearing the gospel and believing? Like, is a bigger percentage of "people amongst those who have not heard saved" via this method than among "those hearing the gospel"? Any biblical explanation of how this works?
Caveat: This is not about 'age of accountability people (a possible loop hole :) )
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Doesn't the link you provided basically say what I said or am I misunderstanding something?

The best way that I can put it is that I believe we don't/can't accomplish salvation. I do not believe salvation is something we can accomplish (earn). Salvation is a gift from God and I believe the only thing we can do is accept that gift. That is what I believe Paul is saying in Ephesians 2:8-10 where he wrote, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." NKJV

The best answer I can give to your question about the method being superior, grace is of God and there is nothing superior to that.
 
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WIP said:
Salvation is a gift from God and I believe the only thing we can do is accept that gift.
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I was told that arguing with moderators was frowned upon. Guess I can ask a question ...

Aside: A lot of comments on here I have found to be ambiguous.

Question: Do you side with synergism or monergism? (From this I will know exactly where you are coming from)

Aside 2: Hello
 
Fastfredy0 said:
I was told that arguing with moderators was frowned upon. Guess I can ask a question ...

Aside: A lot of comments on here I have found to be ambiguous.

Question: Do you side with synergism or monergism? (From this I will know exactly where you are coming from)

Aside 2: Hello
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Never heard either of those two terms so I don't know what they mean. I also don't really care about labels.
 
WIP said:
Never heard either of those two terms so I don't know what they mean. I also don't really care about labels.
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Also, you replied to me so fast as I was editing my post. Sorry for any inconvenience.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
I was told that arguing with moderators was frowned upon.
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It has nothing to do with me being a moderator. Arguing with anyone is frowned upon. We know disagreements are inevitable as we are all at different places in our spiritual walk. The problem comes in how we express our differing views/opinions/positions, etc.

We can disagree and share those disagreements but when we begin to focus on winning arguments, that is when things can get sticky with the staff because we see it as non-edifying and promoting division.

We want this site to be one where people are not discouraged from sharing their views because they feel they will be attacked or put down. I have been and often am in that boat and feel anxious about sharing.

We've been there but when Stovebolts purchased the site he had a new vision and with JohnDB's assistance CFnet has moved into a new direction that we hope to keep.
 
wondering said:
Oz,,,,
Sin and Death have affected all of humanity by the sin of Adam.

But we are NOT IMPUTED with his sin.
HE sinned that one sin of disobedience,,,NOT EACH ONE OF US.

We are each responsible for our own sins...not the sins of others.

Being made sinner through one act of sin...
And being IMPUTED for that sin are two totally different ideas.

Please respond again.
I think your wording will be misunderstood by the others.
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wondering,

The exegesis I provided above on Rom 5:12-20 demonstrates that as Adam's was imputed to the whole human race, Christ's redemption is imputed to those who believe.

We engage in sinful actions because of our sinful nature, imputed by Adam.

Oz
wondering said:
Yes,,,I know what verses calvinists use to show that regeneration comes before belief.
This does not make it correct.

There is a reply for each of the verses you posted.

Also, some will take your comment to mean that you agree that regenration comes before belief.

Do you agree with this doctrine?
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wondering,

I most certainly do not agree with the Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration preceding faith.

This is my understanding of what the Bible teaches:

In spite of the views of extreme Calvinists to place regeneration prior to faith, I can't find any verses, properly exegeted, that teach such. Rather, the regular teaching of Scripture places faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving.

This is taught in passages such as Romans 5:1; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7.

For my understanding of imputation of Adam's sin from Rom 5:12-20, see my post #450.

Oz
 
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OzSpen said:
wondering,

The exegesis I provided above on Rom 5:12-20 demonstrates that as Adam's was imputed to the whole human race, Christ's redemption is imputed to those who believe.

We engage in sinful actions because of our sinful nature, imputed by Adam.

Oz


wondering,

I most certainly do not agree with the Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration preceding faith.

This is my understanding of what the Bible teaches:

In spite of the views of extreme Calvinists to place regeneration prior to faith, I can't find any verses, properly exegeted, that teach such. Rather, the regular teaching of Scripture places faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving.

This is taught in passages such as Romans 5:1; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7.

For my understanding of imputation of Adam's sin from Rom 5:12-20, see my post #450.

Oz
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Extreme Calvinisim is not the author of regeneration before faith, it is what Calvinism , period,teaches. I realize that is what Norman Geisler calls it but he also presents himself as a moderate Calvinist, just to muddy the waters and confuse people who are easily confused. There is nothing Calvinist about the things he says. Just clearing up a mistake.
 
OzSpen said:
This is taught in passages such as Romans 5:1; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7.
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Again, in my opinion, these verses tell us what we must do and not why we did it (believe).
Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith, .... Yeah, I agree, but it does not tell us the how we got our faith. Did the Spirit via regeneration, cause us to change our mind and believe or did we do it ourselves. The verse simply says we are justified by faith (nothing about process of getting faith).

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. ..... John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. .... says 'become children of God thus this is about salvation ..... and then goes on to say not by WILL OF MAN and then say BUT THE WILL OF GOD .... now here is a verse the address the HOW

  • Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ... now here is a verse the address the HOW ... "Faith is NOT your own doing.
  • 1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. now here is a verse the address the HOW ... it says NO ONE CAN SAY JESUS IS LORD, except HOW, excep tby the power of the Spirit
  • Then there are 40 verses saying we cannot believe of our own power. ("No one seeks God" 1 Cor. 2:14 says "he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated" (the Spirit has to do it) , etc. etc. etc
  • Why does God use the metaphor 'born again' ... because you can't birth yourself, God has to do it ... John 3:5 Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [even] the Spirit .. not born of yourself, of the Spirit
  • Why does God use the metaphor 'spiritually dead' ... because you can't raise yourself from the dead, God has to do it
  • Why does God use the metaphor 'Slave to Sin' ... because you can't free yourself, God has to do it
  • Why does God use the metaphor 'spiritually dead' ... because you can't raise yourself from the dead, God has to do it
  • John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it pleaseth... so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." Jesus used the wind to illustrate how the Spirit regenerates. The wind is an element which man can neither harness nor hinder. The wind neither consults man's pleasure nor can it be regulated by his devices.
  • Philippians 1:29 For you have been granted [from the Greek term charizomai, “to give as a gift] [the privilege] for Christ’s sake not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer in His behalf. you don't give yourself a gift, a gift comes from another... the gift causing you to believe
I need verses addressing how we acquire faith, not verses saying you must believe and assume the method to be "I can do it myself"

I need verses telling me how I can overcome my depravity when the bible says I cannot.
  • John 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light
  • Romans 3:10-18 “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
  • 2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
IMO


 
wondering said:
I don't remember the question Oz asked.

When you say "according to you" it makes it sound like I make up my own theology.
I don't do this.
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Oh hi W. This is one of the posts I thought You didn't answer. I came across it accidently. It never showed up in my alerts!
And, ha, ha ha, I no longer remember the question Oz asked either!
I did not mean according to you as saying you were making up tour own theology. I meant it as I know that that is how you interpret it, not that it is wrong, only that you believe it (yikes. what an awful sentence). Then i laid beside your interpretation mine, and was pointing out that they have equal objective validity. But of course, only one of them can actually be right. Not going to quibble over which because---not my point. I only want you to see that Reformed or me is "not making up theology either. At least that is my point at this moment. Don't remember what it was yesterday!
 
Avigdor said:
Extreme Calvinisim is not the author of regeneration before faith, it is what Calvinism , period,teaches. I realize that is what Norman Geisler calls it but he also presents himself as a moderate Calvinist, just to muddy the waters and confuse people who are easily confused. There is nothing Calvinist about the things he says. Just clearing up a mistake.
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Avigdor,

I have read a lot of Geisler. I agree with much of his theology, especially in apologetics and systematic theology. However, I cannot conclude he is a 'moderate Calvinist', whatever that means.

He doesn't come close to being a Calvinist.

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
JLB,

I've given my exegetical understanding of schisms (1 Cor 1:10 ESV). The schisms/sects in Corinth included:

  • those who spoke in tongues vs those who opposed it.
  • There were schisms over women speaking in the church gathering.
  • schisms over women/men wearing a head covering.
  • Each part of the body of Christ was of equal concern,
  • Jesus' bodily resurrection vs no resurrection, etc.
Why must you dumb me down by your negative comments about learning Hebrew and Greek? If your attitude towards me continues, I will not respond.

Oz
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Sorry you fell that way.

I just read what the scripture says and believe what is written.

To me that is not dumbing down anything but a simple approach to allowing the scripture to instruct us.

Please, I think it might be best if you simply not respond to any of my posts if you feel that way.


Thanks.

God bless.


JLB
 
OzSpen said:
JLB,

I've given my exegetical understanding of schisms (1 Cor 1:10 ESV). The schisms/sects in Corinth included:

  • those who spoke in tongues vs those who opposed it.
  • There were schisms over women speaking in the church gathering.
  • schisms over women/men wearing a head covering.
  • Each part of the body of Christ was of equal concern,
  • Jesus' bodily resurrection vs no resurrection, etc.
Why must you dumb me down by your negative comments about learning Hebrew and Greek? If your attitude towards me continues, I will not respond.

Oz
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Please let's get back to topic....
IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN....even though He allows free will.

If we stick to biblical verses, we could all join in since we all know the bible.


:topic
 
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jasonc said:
Faith coming by hearing .meanibg they have to be told ,why would God fully reveal himself to men when they could and on. Their own find God and on their own without the blood live perfect .

See job 9 ,and Ezekiel 22 on that.

Sorry our bend to sin is so string we will not want God or even reach to God without God stirring the contact first

Its because he. First loved us ,not because we loved God first .

god choose Abraham .he wanted isreal to be .
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Faith comes by hearing God.

Amen.


The rest of your post, I had trouble understanding your point.


Could you clarify for me what your point is?



JLB
 
OzSpen said:
wondering,

While the language of imputation is not used explicitly in Romans 5, the concept or reality is certainly present (cf. Psalm 32:2; Romans 4:8; 5:13 and 2 Cor 5:19). Imputation introduces the idea that sinners are constituted guilty independent of and prior to their own personal sin.

In Rom 5:12-20, we have the historical view of the imputation of sin.

Note Rom 5:12 (NASB), 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned'.
  • In vv. 15-19 we have the one trespass of the one man and that is parallel to the language of v. 12, 'all sinned', i.e. through the one man's sin, all people sinned or became sinners. Sin was imputed to every human being.

  • Verses 13–14 form a parenthesis in the argument.

  • The 'just as' / 'and so' in Rom 5:12a and 5:12b begin an unfinished sentence whose syntax is not completed until 5:19a and 19b, 'For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous' (NASB). The syntax of 'just as' / 'even so' in 5:19a and 19b connect with 5:12.
Thus by one man's act of disobedience is imputed to the entire human race sin and death.

This is compared to another act of obedience that results in life and righteousness. This is the Adam vs Christ analogy of imputation. Adam imputes disobedience. Christ imputes obedience. See Rom 5:15-18.

Oz
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Hi Oz,,,
I did see this even before, but let's go through it again because otherwise we're going to lose the meaning of the word IMPUTE.

Definition of impute

transitive verb
1: to lay the responsibility or blame for (something) often falsely or unjustlyThe economic sins imputed to Tito had all been committed to a greater extent by the communist parties of neighbouring countries.— Hugh Seton-Watson
2: to credit or ascribe (something) to a person or a cause : ATTRIBUTE


impute

VERB
If you impute something such as blame or a crime to someone, you say that they are responsible for it or are the cause of it.
[formal]
It is grossly unfair to impute blame to the United Nations. [VERB noun + to]
Synonyms: attribute, assign, ascribe, credit More


So,,,,we suffer from the effects of Adam's sin....
But we are not IMPUTED with his sin.

Adam sinned...not each one of us.
We are only responsible for our own sins,,,,and not anyone else's.

We did not sin as Adam sinned....
Romans 5:14
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
 
JLB said:

Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

People that don’t keep His commandments certainly will not be saved. ... clarification requested. I do not keep God's commandment "you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. " .... your statement indicates that I am going to hell...
christianforums.net
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Following said in tongue and cheek, fun/humorous way:
"Golly, I am down 4 to 1 in the voting. Any lower and I will be labeled a heretic." (smiles)

Aside: I didn't even get Avigdor's vote :cries
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Following said in tongue and cheek, fun/humorous way:
"Golly, I am down 4 to 1 in the voting. Any lower and I will be labeled a heretic." (smiles)

Aside: I didn't even get Avigdor's vote :cries
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On initial salvation we agree that it’s by grace through faith.

Let’s continue this discussion in that thread.

I pretty sure I’ll end up being the “heretic”.


JLB
 
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