IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[GodsGrace]

Wondering you are confusing your view of free will ,with what you,think the reformed say..

Wondering that's in,charismatic circles its called unctioning,prayed up as touched by the Spirit to do Gods will.forced no.
Yes they use bad words but this part I,must agree .God even trains us to seek Him more and conditions us to be more like Him by,this.doesn't mean we can't also fall away

What do the reformed say Jason?
Come on, clarify it for me.

What EXACTLY do you believe?

Are men born TOTALLY DEPRAVED? So that they cannot even say YES to God.

Does God choose those that will be saved UNCONDITIONALLY?
Based on NOTHING AT ALL.

Did Jesus' ATONEMENT LIMITED only for those selected by God for salvation?

If God wants us to do something MUST we do it because His grace is IRRESTIBLE? Can we say NO to Him if we want to?

Do you believe in eternal security OR OSAS?


I'm sure you'll realize that the above are the T.U.L.I.P. in calvinism,,,or the reformed faith.
Let's get this clarified please.

 

[GodsGrace]

Response lacks your definition of "free will". It does vary. Not appropriate to infer I know your meaning or that everyone knows what you mean by 'free will' and it is safer not to take a stance. Always interested in someone showing me verses to substantuate the existence of free will and the cause of free will using the Law of Causality (every effect has a cause)

Response lacks scripture to authenticate your statements.

As I said,,,everyone knows what FREE WILL means except some segment of the Christian faith.
For them there is no free will...it just does not exist.

God seems to plan everything for them....from what to have for breakfast to whether or not to be saved.

Of course, in the scenario, it is God that also plans all the evil in the world.
And in this scenario God also plans for every Christian to believe something different.
Very interesting...since God is not a God of confusion....
But in that scenario, God sure does create a lot of confusion.

You see, you want a verse to substantiate what free will is.
It's not enough to understand that free will means that YOU make a decision with no outside pressure.

Look what Wikipedia says about free will:

Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.

Look at the points made:
1. It's the ability to choose between different possible courses of action UNIMPEDED.
2. Free will is linked to moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply ONLY to actions that are FREELY chosen.

How come Wikipedia know what Free Will is but you need an explanation??

You need a bible verse for Free Will?
Here's ONE:
Philemon 14:
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

And maybe you could show me where in the entire bible free will was taken away from manking...

So why does God make us fail? He does not. Replace "make" with "allow". "Make" implies God sinning.

Every Christian knows that God ALLOWS all to happen.
It is the reformed that believe that God MAKES things happen.

You're right. If God MAKES things happen,,,then God is creating sin.
This is exactly what John Piper teaches...with no qualms about it.
He's of the reformed faith..if you don't know him,,,maybe you should get to know him.
He's all over YouTube.

His thoughts are not my thoughts, so I can't answer as He would and you are asking why God does something. Perhaps the answer is Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still blame me [for sinning]?

This goes back to the meaning of Free Will doesn't it?
Why bring up Romans 9:19?
If God PREDETERMINED everything,,,,then we are NOT to blame for anything.
We are only doing what God has PREDETERMINED US TO DO.
The reformed faith removes RESPONSIBILITY from our actions, and other judgements UNLESS we make our own Free Will choices. Only in that way can we be responsible for our actions.

Would a JUST GOD behave any other way?
You say you cannot know God?
This is very sad.
I feel like I know God very well.
I feel like I could trust Him because I know He is a

LOVING GOD
J John 4:8b

MERCIFUL GOD
Exodus 34:6-7

JUST GOD
Romans 3:26

For who [including myself] has [ever] resisted His will and purpose?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 including us, whom He also called, not only from among the Jews, but also from among the Gentiles?
Perhaps the answer is Job chap 38-39

Perhaps the answer in in Jeremiah chapter 18?
Perhaps the answer should be sought when someone tries to tell you that God is
UNLOVING, UNMERCIFUL AND UNJUST.
Perhaps you should trust God more than you trust the men that teach you about him?

After all, it's HE that makes us desire what we desire. This is not true. God does not 'make' us desire to do evil things. He permits us to do some evil things; the evil things being part of our sin nature imputed from Adam (thank you Adam) . I prefer not to get into theodicies. God's sovereignty it enough for now
Does He take please in our sinning? No, He is not pleased when we sin. He does allow it to happen according to his plan / purpose. Again, I prefer not to get into theodicies. God's sovereignty it enough for now

Unfortunately God's sovereignty is not enough for now.
You must learn to reconcile God's Sovereignty with our Free Will.
Our Libertarian Free Will.

 

[jasonc]

What do the reformed say Jason?
Come on, clarify it for me.

What EXACTLY do you believe?

Are men born TOTALLY DEPRAVED? So that they cannot even say YES to God.

Does God choose those that will be saved UNCONDITIONALLY?
Based on NOTHING AT ALL.

Did Jesus' ATONEMENT LIMITED only for those selected by God for salvation?

If God wants us to do something MUST we do it because His grace is IRRESTIBLE? Can we say NO to Him if we want to?

Do you believe in eternal security OR OSAS?


I'm sure you'll realize that the above are the T.U.L.I.P. in calvinism,,,or the reformed faith.
Let's get this clarified please.

I,never said one couldn't refuse.

If God didn't send ,or seek the lost ,or even call men to repent would those persons eve, look.

You,thonk,covid is bad ,try see in unmarked graves of Children in afghanistan murdered by the order of Russian officers who then left the guys who obeyed it to die.

Do you really,think without God that you just one day sought him?

Answer me this,

How does a man raised to be a jw,anti trinitarian ,anti orthodox dictrine who dabbled in new age on his own decide to get saved?

Oh i know ,God sent men to me.called me to repent I laughed,one day while facing jail after reading a bible at work ,I prayed to the God asking him to change my life,I was I, desperation. I was stealing ,I was sinning .

People who knew me prayed ,God answers

Its if the son of man is lifted up all men shall be drawn to him.

What draws,a man can't be drawn by himself .other wise if we could by themselves desire and have the power to change ,God wouldn't need to exist .

There are places I have seen ,my mind perpetually stays .covid 19 is a reminder of of those places .

Do you think you made your work abilities or was it God who shaped you ,did that.

I hate sales,I hate retail ,its loathsome.people aren't sources of money to be milked and yet that is the American economy today .yet I can read meters ,I desire to work in either a sewer or water plant ,raw sewage isn't bothersome to me .sire I would love to fix cars bit the door is closed .

Water treatment and its workings is also interesting .there's more to then just drilling a well and pumping it.there's removal of salt,parasites,bacteria,other viral things and chemicals .and adding things after reverse osmosis .

Then there's my daily battle of suicide .
Yes i can choose God .but God forewarned me.in desperation he shall come back ,he allowed me and is teaching me to be what He wants

 

[daninthelionsden]

Does God have complete control over everything?
Does He predetermine everything that happens?

I believe God allows everything that happens...
but does God CAUSE everything that happens?

I would say that, in His sovereignty, He can choose to exercise or limit His control at HIS will. Jesus' life and walk upon the earth was an example of how He limited His own knowledge, will and actions. He even limited His administration of the Kingdom while on this earth and deferred to the Temple administration of the Kingdom until the fullness of time(crucifixion). In His sovereignty He chose to limit Himself.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fredy,

Simply stated, the nature of human free will or of human free choice is, according to Norman Geisler, ‘the power of contrary choice’ (Geisler 2003:444). This is a basic and simple definition: ‘Free will or free choice is the power of contrary choice’ and it is not taken away from human beings by God’s sovereignty.

In my understanding, God gave to Satan (Lucifer) and to Adam the power of free choice before the Fall. However, to discuss free choice, God’s sovereignty and human depravity will take a lot of space that is for other threads.

This view of free will, the power of contrary choice, is compatible with God’s complete sovereignty over human choice as God’s omniscient attribute knows absolutely what every free choice will be. God cannot be the one who decrees sinful actions. Why?

We know God cannot sin. We know that he cannot lie (Heb 6:18; Titus 1:2) and he cannot be tempted by evil and he cannot tempt people with evil (James 1:13). This is the nature of our Lord God Almighty:

Oz

Bibliography:

Geisler, N 2003. Systematic theology: God, creation, vol 2. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse.

Thank you Oz ... a clear, concise viewpoint.

I often wished that Geisler would take up James White's challenge to a debate. So far, he hasn't.

Fred

 

[Fastfredy0]

1. Did you read what I had posted from the Institutes? It's in post no. 90.

2. Could you please clarify whether or not you're of the reformed faith?
Because it seems that you are but then you state beliefs that are NOT of the reformed faith.
So, actually, I don't really know how to reply to you.

Are you on the proverbial fence and are neither here nor there?

1. Did you read what I had posted from the Institutes? It's in post no. 90. Yes, I agreed with what Calvin stated. I just reread it, again, I agree with it. I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make though when you posted it. I think the question at hand was: is it better to have God chose me for salvation or me chose him (the assumption being that the person we are talking about is saved). Calvin was addressing reprobates who believe they are saved in part of the quote. Again, I wasn't sure about the connection.

2. Could you please clarify whether or not you're of the reformed faith?
Because it seems that you are but then you state beliefs that are NOT of the reformed faith. I am in agreement with large majority of doctrines of reformed faith where I would define those doctrines using Westminster Confession of Faith ... or 1689 London Baptist Confession. I am not sure where my opinions have deviated from those 2 documents. Perhaps, I represented an idea poorly or I was misunderstood. I would need clarification.

 

[GodsGrace]

I,never said one couldn't refuse.

But THAT is what the reformed believe!

If God didn't send ,or seek the lost ,or even call men to repent would those persons eve, look.

You,thonk,covid is bad ,try see in unmarked graves of Children in afghanistan murdered by the order of Russian officers who then left the guys who obeyed it to die.

Do you really,think without God that you just one day sought him?

Answer me this,

How does a man raised to be a jw,anti trinitarian ,anti orthodox dictrine who dabbled in new age on his own decide to get saved?

Oh i know ,God sent men to me.called me to repent I laughed,one day while facing jail after reading a bible at work ,I prayed to the God asking him to change my life,I was I, desperation. I was stealing ,I was sinning .

People who knew me prayed ,God answers

Its if the son of man is lifted up all men shall be drawn to him.

What draws,a man can't be drawn by himself .other wise if we could by themselves desire and have the power to change ,God wouldn't need to exist .

There are places I have seen ,my mind perpetually stays .covid 19 is a reminder of of those places .

Do you think you made your work abilities or was it God who shaped you ,did that.

I hate sales,I hate retail ,its loathsome.people aren't sources of money to be milked and yet that is the American economy today .yet I can read meters ,I desire to work in either a sewer or water plant ,raw sewage isn't bothersome to me .sire I would love to fix cars bit the door is closed .

Water treatment and its workings is also interesting .there's more to then just drilling a well and pumping it.there's removal of salt,parasites,bacteria,other viral things and chemicals .and adding things after reverse osmosis .

Then there's my daily battle of suicide .
Yes i can choose God .but God forewarned me.in desperation he shall come back ,he allowed me and is teaching me to be what He wants

Jason,
You see,,,,you switch on me and it gets me confused.

I'm really sorry about your experiences in being a soldier.
I know that those who go overseas do not come back the same as when they left.
Man was not meant to see such horror and it is truly a work of satan.

As to consumerism,,,I happen to feel the same. OTOH, think of it this way..if we all stopped buying, the world would become poor. When you buy something, you're giving work to someone. I wouldn't use ATM machines till just recently because I felt the whole idea does two things: It removes a personal relationship with a clerk you might like,,,,AND it makes someone lose their job.

You could not do this if you don't want to...but the only way I'll understand you is if you answer my questions, which were 5. For each one...do you agree or disagree? The answer should be very short...just a yes or no or a few words.

If you'd rather not get into this...that's fine.
But I think persons that talk like a reformed person have to start stating that they are reformed and they have to agree with the reformed.

If you don't agree with it,,,then don't state some things that they agree.

That's like if I proclaimed that I was a Catholic and then proceeded to disagree with the Eucharist,
the Mass, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, praying to Mary. Then I couldn't call myself a Catholic! (which I don't precisely for this reason).

Another member on here does the same. He sugar coats calvinist ideas and at times faces up to them. I don't know how to have a conversation with someone like this.

At least atpollard knows what he is and discusses around his belief system.

Blessings Jason
We need to pray for each other
and I don't mean about doctrine....

 

[GodsGrace]

I would say that, in His sovereignty, He can choose to exercise or limit His control at HIS will. Jesus' life and walk upon the earth was an example of how He limited His own knowledge, will and actions. He even limited His administration of the Kingdom while on this earth and deferred to the Temple administration of the Kingdom until the fullness of time(crucifixion). In His sovereignty He chose to limit Himself.

Hi Dan,
I agree completely.

AND you brought up a very interesting point that would even make a good thread.
It's this: What does the fullness of time mean?
At the wedding at Cana, Jesus said it was not His time yet?
What time?
Did He mean His time to minister?
Did He mean the time to go to the cross?

And the fullness of the Kingdom....
Did He mean the end of the world?
Did He mean the crucifiction?

If you feel like starting one, make sure to tag me in.

 

[Fastfredy0]

For them there is no free will...it just does not exist.

For them there is no free will...it just does not exist. Agreed, by your definition 'free will' does not exist for reformers. Thus I can know that 'everything worketh for good for those ...' Thank you Lord, thanks that I am not in control and you are. It is comforting to know the all-wise one is in control. He acts rather than reacts.

God seems to plan everything for them....from what to have for breakfast to whether or not to be saved. Agreed. Thanks that God is free to act according to his wisdom and not limited by my independent (free will) decisions.

Of course, in the scenario, it is God that also plans all the evil in the world. Agreed
And in this scenario God also plans for every Christian to believe something different.
Very interesting...since God is not a God of confusion....
But in that scenario, God sure does create a lot of confusion. Actually, this seems to be out of context. This was referring to speaking of tongues when no one could interpret.

Free will Def'n
1. It's the ability to choose between different possible courses of action UNIMPEDED. Ah, the crox of the problem. Man will is impeded. He is depraved. No one seeks God. It is like me wanting to fly without wings, I am impeded. Same with salvation, the sin nature impedes everyone. The good news is, when you go to heaven, you won't be able to sin because you will be impeded (no free will)
2. Free will is linked to moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply ONLY to actions that are FREELY chosen. Agreed, people link it to these areas but I would not include it as part of the definition and neither did the 4 online dictionaries say point '2' is part of the definition.

You need a bible verse for Free Will? Philemon 14:
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will. Ah, you have a point there. I was hoping for a free will verse in connection to salvation. Aside: The phrase “free will” is found in the Bible 16 times. All 16 times it means “voluntary.” Fifteen of those times it’s used of a freewill (voluntary) offering. Not one of those 16 times does “free will” refer to salvation. (some versions use synonym)

And maybe you could show me where in the entire bible free will was taken away from manking... You know the Bible would never say 'will free' was taken away because you cannot take away something that does not exist. Thus, the fact the the bible does not say it is taken away supports my thesis (admittedly, weak evidence)

It is the reformed that believe that God MAKES things happen. This is an incomplete perception of reformed theology. God makes or PERMITS things to happen.
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present outcome, that many people would be kept alive [as they are this day].

John Piper. oh, I like him.

The reformed faith removes RESPONSIBILITY from our actions, and other judgements UNLESS we make our own Free Will choices. Aside: "reformed" is not a faith. Anyways, reform doctrine says you are responsible. You and I have a sin nature so we all sin and are held responsible. Is it possible to never sin for us, no. We are not free. If you truly have 'free will', I challenge you to stop sinning from this day forward. You have the advantage of having the Spirit dwelling in you so I am giving you a handicap.

You say you cannot know God? This is very sad. I don't think I said that. If so, I retract it. God is incomprehensible, but knowable; though the finite cannot know the infinite completely by definition.

Loving, merciful, just God. Agreed

Perhaps you should trust God more than you trust the men that teach you about him? I do. I don't know a Christian that doesn't. Strange comment.
Reformed doctrine is Sola Scriptura ... I assume you are the same

You must learn to reconcile God's Sovereignty with our Free Will. Agreed. For me it's: We always choice what we desire most at the time (Augustine). What we desire is determined by God. Initially, our sin nature causes our desire to be sinful, the indwelling Spirit sanctifies Christians making them desire sin less. Upon death we are glorified and will never chose sin again. We always chose we we desire most. God controls our desires.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.

Thx for the correspondence
Fred

 

[jasonc]

But THAT is what the reformed believe!


Jason,
You see,,,,you switch on me and it gets me confused.

I'm really sorry about your experiences in being a soldier.
I know that those who go overseas do not come back the same as when they left.
Man was not meant to see such horror and it is truly a work of satan.

As to consumerism,,,I happen to feel the same. OTOH, think of it this way..if we all stopped buying, the world would become poor. When you buy something, you're giving work to someone. I wouldn't use ATM machines till just recently because I felt the whole idea does two things: It removes a personal relationship with a clerk you might like,,,,AND it makes someone lose their job.

You could not do this if you don't want to...but the only way I'll understand you is if you answer my questions, which were 5. For each one...do you agree or disagree? The answer should be very short...just a yes or no or a few words.

If you'd rather not get into this...that's fine.
But I think persons that talk like a reformed person have to start stating that they are reformed and they have to agree with the reformed.

If you don't agree with it,,,then don't state some things that they agree.

That's like if I proclaimed that I was a Catholic and then proceeded to disagree with the Eucharist,
the Mass, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, praying to Mary. Then I couldn't call myself a Catholic! (which I don't precisely for this reason).

Another member on here does the same. He sugar coats calvinist ideas and at times faces up to them. I don't know how to have a conversation with someone like this.

At least atpollard knows what he is and discusses around his belief system.

Blessings Jason
We need to pray for each other
and I don't mean about doctrine....

Buying things to,the point where the majority of millionaires here can't really,afford their home is good.majority of water we cut off is those

 

[jasonc]

Buying things to,the point where the majority of millionaires here can't really,afford their home is good.majority of water we cut off is those

Majority of Americans are in debt and one paycheck from,homelessness

 

[GodsGrace]

1. Did you read what I had posted from the Institutes? It's in post no. 90. Yes, I agreed with what Calvin stated. I just reread it, again, I agree with it. I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make though when you posted it. I think the question at hand was: is it better to have God chose me for salvation or me chose him (the assumption being that the person we are talking about is saved). Calvin was addressing reprobates who believe they are saved in part of the quote. Again, I wasn't sure about the connection.

2. Could you please clarify whether or not you're of the reformed faith?
Because it seems that you are but then you state beliefs that are NOT of the reformed faith. I am in agreement with large majority of doctrines of reformed faith where I would define those doctrines using Westminster Confession of Faith ... or 1689 London Baptist Confession. I am not sure where my opinions have deviated from those 2 documents. Perhaps, I represented an idea poorly or I was misunderstood. I would need clarification.

Thanks Fred...
The above is good enough for me.
Of course, I can't be expected to also know the Westminster Confession of Faith.
But if you agree with what I posted, then I do understand you.

I thank you for clarifying and will know how to respond better to you now.

Just so we understand each other well, I consider everyone that believes in Jesus my brother in Christ...yes, even Catholics! Even the reformed!

However, I do find it extremely difficult to understand how they can change God's character to the point that He is unrecognizable to me...and then feel superior because they can accept this God that is different from the God of the bible.

Of course, YOU will believe you DO believe in the God of the bible...but I guess this is what we'll discuss,,,if you want to,,,,or we could discuss other doctrine.

To the O.P......I have no problem reconciling God's sovereignty with our free will.
In fact, I'd say He is MORE sovereign because He has allowed us to have free will....
the opposite of what you believe.

And if I misrepresent your beliefs, I apologize in advance but I'll have to adhere to the Institutes.
(and you could always correct me, although I do this very rarely since it's not right).

 

[OzSpen]

Thank you Oz ... a clear, concise viewpoint.

I often wished that Geisler would take up James White's challenge to a debate. So far, he hasn't.

Fred

Fred,

Norman Geisler had his reasons for not debating James White, but I'm not sure of the exact nature of the refusal.

It's too late to arrange that debate now as Norm Leo G went home to be with the Lord on 1 July 2019.

What would James White's response be to Geisler's definition of free will: '‘Free will or free choice is the power of contrary choice’?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

For them there is no free will...it just does not exist. Agreed, by your definition 'free will' does not exist for reformers. Thus I can know that 'everything worketh for good for those ...' Thank you Lord, thanks that I am not in control and you are. It is comforting to know the all-wise one is in control. He acts rather than reacts.

Fred,
Every Christian believes that God works all for the good for those that Believe.
Romans 8:28

But what does this mean?
If you believe that God also creates evil and predestines it for us....how could it work for the good? Why couldn't a Sovereign God choose a less painful method to make something work for us? You see, this is why a God that ALLOWS Free Will is actually MORE SOVEREIGN and powerful because He is able to WORK AROUND what we choose (libertarian free will) to do. This is truly a sovereign and powerful God.

And just check out what the very next verse states:
Romans 8:29
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

For those WHOM HE FOREKNEW.....
God foreknew who would become a believer and PREDESTINED them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

He did not predestine WHO would be saved,,,
but HOW they would be saved and how they would live...in the image of Jesus.

God seems to plan everything for them....from what to have for breakfast to whether or not to be saved. Agreed. Thanks that God is free to act according to his wisdom and not limited by my independent (free will) decisions.

I do have a problem understanding reformed theology...
Here's why.
If your statement above, saying that God does indeed plan everything beginning with our breakfast, then why did Jesus say the following?

Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Aside from the fact that AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING denotes an action of libertarian free will, didn't Jesus know that God predestines everything and that Jerusalem (the Jews) would NOT come to Him?

Didn't He understand how God works?

Of course, in the scenario, it is God that also plans all the evil in the world. Agreed
And in this scenario God also plans for every Christian to believe something different.
Very interesting...since God is not a God of confusion....
But in that scenario, God sure does create a lot of confusion. Actually, this seems to be out of context. This was referring to speaking of tongues when no one could interpret.

The context does not matter in certain cases.

No matter WHAT the verse is speaking about...the point is that God is NOT a God of confusion.

If He doesn't want us to be confused by a person speaking in tongues that cannot be translated...imagine if He wants us to be confused about HIS NATURE!

Free will Def'n
1. It's the ability to choose between different possible courses of action UNIMPEDED. Ah, the crox of the problem. Man will is impeded. He is depraved. No one seeks God. It is like me wanting to fly without wings, I am impeded. Same with salvation, the sin nature impedes everyone. The good news is, when you go to heaven, you won't be able to sin because you will be impeded (no free will)

Fred, libertarian free will does NOT include the ability to fly. This is a silly argument that shows the person does not really know what free will is...

First of all, we can only have free will for what we can control.
Secondly, biblically speaking, free will refers mainly to moral issues since the bible is not concerned with material consumption but the salvation of our souls.

Could you pick one verse that speaks of total depravity and we could discuss that.
John 3:16 tells us we are NOT impeded by our free will.
We have the free will to CHOSE to believe in Christ.
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Unless God is a very tricky God,,,the above is an instruction and not a statement.
God is INSTRUCTING man on how to be saved.


part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

part 2 of 2

2. Free will is linked to moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply ONLY to actions that are FREELY chosen. Agreed, people link it to these areas but I would not include it as part of the definition and neither did the 4 online dictionaries say point '2' is part of the definition.

I DID give you the meaning and the source. I ALWAYS list the source,,,

Here it is again in case you missed it:
Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.[1][2]
Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen. It is also connected with the concepts of advice, persuasion, deliberation, and prohibition. Traditionally, only actions that are freely willed are seen as deserving credit or blame.

sourece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

You need a bible verse for Free Will? Philemon 14:
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will. Ah, you have a point there. I was hoping for a free will verse in connection to salvation. Aside: The phrase “free will” is found in the Bible 16 times. All 16 times it means “voluntary.” Fifteen of those times it’s used of a freewill (voluntary) offering. Not one of those 16 times does “free will” refer to salvation. (some versions use synonym)

Agreed. I know this, as you might imagine.

1. You say it refers to VOLUNTARY in the bible.
Correct. VOLUNTARY means doing something of our own free will.
If you VOLUNTEER to drive an ambulance, you do so with no profit and no coercion and no one is forcing you to do this. Volunteering denotes free will....libertarian free will.

2. John 3:16 is a free will verse about salvation. You just don't think so.
and if you want a free will verse on salvation,,,I'll post this one:

Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

There are many more....

Romans states that WE PRESENT OURSELVES
FOR OBEDIENCE
and WE ARE SLAVES
of the One to whom we present OURSELVES.

And maybe you could show me where in the entire bible free will was taken away from manking...

You know the Bible would never say 'will free' was taken away because you cannot take away something that does not exist. Thus, the fact the the bible does not say it is taken away supports my thesis (admittedly, weak evidence)

This is so wrong that I won't even comment on it.
I submit Adam and Eve.

And AFTER they exercised their free will...
WHEN was it taken away?

It is the reformed that believe that God MAKES things happen.

This is an incomplete perception of reformed theology. God makes or PERMITS things to happen.
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present outcome, that many people would be kept alive [as they are this day.

Fred,

Please learn the difference between
MAKING THINGS HAPPEN and
PERMITTING THINGS TO HAPPEN

No other comment since you're making conflicting statements.

The reformed faith removes RESPONSIBILITY from our actions, and other judgements UNLESS we make our own Free Will choices. Aside: "reformed" is not a faith. Anyways, reform doctrine says you are responsible. You and I have a sin nature so we all sin and are held responsible. Is it possible to never sin for us, no. We are not free. If you truly have 'free will', I challenge you to stop sinning from this day forward. You have the advantage of having the Spirit dwelling in you so I am giving you a handicap.

How could I be responsible for what I do if it's GOD that predestined me to do what I do?
And your "challenge" makes no sense in view of the fact that you believe God predetermined everything.

If GOD makes me sin...
HE is responsible for my sin
NOT ME.

You say you cannot know God? This is very sad. I don't think I said that. If so, I retract it. God is incomprehensible, but knowable; though the finite cannot know the infinite completely by definition.

Loving, merciful, just God. Agreed

How can God be a JUST GOD if He makes me responsible for sinning when it is HE that makes me sin because He predetermined my action?
Do you now what JUST means?

Perhaps you should trust God more than you trust the men that teach you about him? I do. I don't know a Christian that doesn't. Strange comment.
Reformed doctrine is Sola Scriptura ... I assume you are the same

Of course,,,sola scriptura. Agreed.
But how do you trust a God that states what the Institutes stated in my previous post to you? How do you know you are not one of those saved for a while?

Here's some more from The Institutes:
Read it and weep....


The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mat 22: 14), is also very improperly interpreted, (see 3.2.11 and 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear, viz., that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

source: Calvin's Institutes 3.24.8

You must learn to reconcile God's Sovereignty with our Free Will. Agreed. For me it's: We always choice what we desire most at the time (Augustine). What we desire is determined by God. Initially, our sin nature causes our desire to be sinful, the indwelling Spirit sanctifies Christians making them desire sin less. Upon death we are glorified and will never chose sin again. We always chose we we desire most. God controls our desires.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.

Thx for the correspondence
Fred

We've just started Fred.
There's plenty more.
You want to talk about Augustine?
The one that couldn't even make up his mind what he believed and changed his mind
on free will at least twice in his life?

Did you know that he believed in free will?
Did you know that he was a gnostic Manichean for 10 years before becoming a Christian?
Did you know that he DID NOT believe in predestination the way Calvin did?

Of course in your belief system what we desire is what God desires.
That's what compatible free will is.
God forces us to want what He wants....
Nothing to do with what every other Christian denomination believes....
and what has been believed since Jesus returned to heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0

Fred,
Would you like to learn how to use the quote feature?
It would make it easier for YOU and for everyone else.

I'd be happy to show you...it's VERY easy and you'll learn it in two minutes.
?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fred,

Norman Geisler had his reasons for not debating James White, but I'm not sure of the exact nature of the refusal.

It's too late to arrange that debate now as Norm Leo G went home to be with the Lord on 1 July 2019.

What would James White's response be to Geisler's definition of free will: '‘Free will or free choice is the power of contrary choice’?

Oz

Oz:
Gee, I wouldn't want to debate White even if I was in the right. He has 170+ debates under his belt.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oz:
Gee, I wouldn't want to debate White even if I was in the right. He has 170+ debates under his belt.

Want to know my favorite debate with White?
Come on...how do you watch this and still be reformed!!

 

[jasonc]

God uses bad or evil to lead men into repentance or Holiness. why on earth one doesn't see that he does that , i haven't a clue.

doesn't mean He made men do evil. just uses that to lead men to repent. often allowing men to leave and drift away and return as a lesson learned. paul spoke of this in that one person he decided to give to the devil so that the destruction of the flesh would cause him to repent.

cancer , I personally have heard this, has lead men to say, they were glad to have it and are closer to God. in my case the best church I ever had was in Afghanistan facing death, seeing suffering. yet also wanting to be in chapel. worship was real. in the safety of 'merica, and the west. the idea of church is more of a hobby. and really imho disconnected from the idea of there is NOTHING else to cling to that will be your support via that connection to Jesus. Historically reading the graves of babies and the accounts of yellow fever and storms that wasn't the case. I am not suggesting suffering should be encouraged only that in the midst of Hell, one will see GOD without distraction.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fred,
Every Christian believes that God works all for the good for those that Believe.
Romans 8:28

But what does this mean?
If you believe that God also creates evil and predestines it for us....how could it work for the good? Why couldn't a Sovereign God choose a less painful method to make something work for us? You see, this is why a God that ALLOWS Free Will is actually MORE SOVEREIGN and powerful because He is able to WORK AROUND what we choose (libertarian free will) to do. This is truly a sovereign and powerful God.

And just check out what the very next verse states:
Romans 8:29
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

For those WHOM HE FOREKNEW.....
God foreknew who would become a believer and PREDESTINED them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

He did not predestine WHO would be saved,,,
but HOW they would be saved and how they would live...in the image of Jesus.




I do have a problem understanding reformed theology...
Here's why.
If your statement above, saying that God does indeed plan everything beginning with our breakfast, then why did Jesus say the following?

Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Aside from the fact that AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING denotes an action of libertarian free will, didn't Jesus know that God predestines everything and that Jerusalem (the Jews) would NOT come to Him?

Didn't He understand how God works?



The context does not matter in certain cases.

No matter WHAT the verse is speaking about...the point is that God is NOT a God of confusion.

If He doesn't want us to be confused by a person speaking in tongues that cannot be translated...imagine if He wants us to be confused about HIS NATURE!


Fred, libertarian free will does NOT include the ability to fly. This is a silly argument that shows the person does not really know what free will is...

First of all, we can only have free will for what we can control.
Secondly, biblically speaking, free will refers mainly to moral issues since the bible is not concerned with material consumption but the salvation of our souls.

Could you pick one verse that speaks of total depravity and we could discuss that.
John 3:16 tells us we are NOT impeded by our free will.
We have the free will to CHOSE to believe in Christ.
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Unless God is a very tricky God,,,the above is an instruction and not a statement.
God is INSTRUCTING man on how to be saved.


part 1 of 2

Wondering:
Every Christian believes that God works all for the good for those that Believe.
Romans 8:28 Agreed. My subliminal point was... How can everything work for good if we are 'in control' (free will). From my side it's easy to understand as God is all knowing, all wise, etc. From your side of the argument it is much more (I would say impossible) to explain as evil, unwise persons are making trillions of decisions.

If you believe that God also creates evil and predestines it for us. Again, that is not what I believe. Change 'creates' to 'permits' evil. One verb is active, one is passive. So I believe God 'permits' evil and predestines it for us.
How could it work for the good? I can't explain every evil (my friend suffered for 6 months with cancer and I wondered about that) ... but two biblical examples proving the use of evil for good are Genesis 50:20 and Acts 4:27. Acts 4:27 worked out great for you and I. ?

Why couldn't a Sovereign God choose a less painful method to make something work for us? Beats me. He is all wise so by definition whatever happens is the best way keeping in mind God's purpose; to glorify himself and and His pleasure. This is theocentric thinking instead of anthropocentric.

You see, this is why a God that ALLOWS Free Will is actually MORE SOVEREIGN and powerful because He is able to WORK AROUND what we choose (libertarian free will) to do. This is truly a sovereign and powerful God. I don't see how being in less control (i.e. giving free will to man, even if that were possible) is more sovereign? This contradicts the definition IMO. Sovereign = having supreme power or authority. How is giving up authority more sovereign?... anyways...

He is able to WORK AROUND what we choose ... Hypotheical: how does God's work around fix someone killing the mother of 5 children. The mother was going to become a Christian but someone took away got to use her 'free will'. Reincarnation? ... and all the consequences ... kids have different or no mom... on and on. God is all knowing and powerful, but I got to wonder; even God can't make 1 + 1 = 3. God can't fix what is irreparably broken; maybe this hypothetical doesn't prove the point. Guess there is one that does.

God foreknew who would become a believer and PREDESTINED them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Interesting take ... I give you credit for your study habits/knowledge. Well, at first glance the verse would not seem to give advantage to either of our opinions. Question is, how he "foreknew" them. You probably would say God looks into the future and sees their decision. I say God gave them their attributes and then regenerated them where "salvific faith" is a consequence of regeneration. I don't think you can find a reason why my process doesn't fit the verse. Here is some of the flaws I think in your process:
1) If God's knowledge of his creatures were derived from the creatures by the impression of anything upon him, as there is upon us, he could not know from eternity, because from eternity there was no actual existence of anything but himself.
2) Can God be pleased/glorified with anything which does not have its origin in Himself? If “free will” be an actuality, then God is not glorified by the salvation of individuals that He foreknew for He had no purpose for that individual’s decision. Ephesians 1:11
3) Grace is sovereign, because God exercises it toward and bestows it upon whom He pleases: “Even so might grace reign“ (Romans 5:21). If grace “reigns” then it is on the throne, and the occupant of the throne is sovereign. Hence “the throne of grace” (Hebrews 4:16).
4) Knowledge depends on immutability (a law or principle, that does not change). All would be chaos without it, and nature would be unintelligible for if knowledge changes as “free will” portends, then God must change His plan accordingly.
5) Since knowledge is a perfection, if God's knowledge of the creatures depended upon the creatures, he would derive an excellency from them, they would derive no excellency from any idea in the Divine mind; he would not be infinitely perfect in himself; if his perfection in knowledge were gained from anything without himself and below himself
I could go on ..

He did not predestine WHO would be saved,,, but HOW they would be saved and how they would live...in the image of Jesus. To this I respond that 'foreknown' (WHO) in the bible refers to people and not their actions; it is a noun and not a verb. (or so I have read, I am not a Greek Scholar, best as I can recall... can double check if a biggy)

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Well, from my point view, their unwillingness is a result of their sin nature. They don't have the ability to come to Christ on their own because their will is depraved. Romans 3:10, I can list 20+ similar verses saying they are not capable. As for Christ saying he wishes they would come and why don't they if Christ so wishes ... Reform people classify God's wills, 1) moral and 2)sovereign(secret) will. Morally, for example, he wishes everyone would not sin; but sovereignly He decided to allow it.

Aside from the fact that AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING denotes an action of libertarian free will, didn't Jesus know that God predestines everything and that Jerusalem (the Jews) would NOT come to Him? Didn't He understand how God works? You call it 'libertarian free will' and as I propose that they always decide not to come (unless God intervenes) because their will are depraved and thus incapable of doing what is right (I gave many depraved verses). Didn't he (Christ) understand ... well Christs has two natures and it is always possible His human nature does not understand, but assuming it was the divine nature then by definition the divine nature has the same essence as God and understands all things.... sorry, I wondering ... hmmm, could be human nature speaking and he is saddened I suppose. Christ cried at Lazaus tomb even though he knew Lazaus wonder be dancing around shortly ... well, his divine nature knew and I am assuming human nature knew. I don't know how God thinks, beats me what his motivation is ...
Part 1 of 2