IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[Fastfredy0]

Part 1 of 2

Part 2 of 2

The context does not matter in certain cases. No matter WHAT the verse is speaking about...the point is that God is NOT a God of confusion. Well, let's assume context doesn't matter. Let's see .. confusion ... lack of understanding; uncertainty ... gee, by definition God is the only being that isn't confused as he is the only one who understands everything ... I had same question as you in the past ... I would hope God would have all believer's understand at least to point of agreement on things they believe. I was told our 'Sin nature' always screws things up ... that's all I got. I don't think your point is a strong one (but I am biased )


Fred, libertarian free will does NOT include the ability to fly. This is a silly argument that shows the person does not really know what free will is... I know what your definition of "free will' is. I was trying to show the our will is not free/unimpeded. It is restricted, for example, by 1) our sin nature, 2) God decision to regenerate or not, ... the simple physical example of God deciding to not give us wings so, even though I would LOVE to fly, I can't.

First of all, we can only have free will for what we can control. Agreed, the crux of the matter is I don't think we can control things and you do. You think we can save ourselves and I think we are not capable (refer to depravity verses).

Could you pick one verse that speaks of total depravity and we could discuss that. I gave a list of 30 of them. How 'bout Romans 3:11-12; Roman 8:7 ... nice of you to do so, thx.


JOHN 3:16 ....now this is interesting.
Step 1: What does WORLD mean in John 3:16 in your opinion?
Step 2 .. after answering that, look up other verses in John (same author) that have the word WORLD in them and see if your 3:16 definition fits those verse. I will help you .. John 14:17; John 15:19; John 16:20; John 17:14; john 1:10; John 4:42; John 7:4; John 13:1; John 13:1; John 16:33; John 21:25 ... I think there is more.. too lazy to continue, this should suffice.
Step 3: I will assume you came to the conclusion that your definition of WORLD in John 3:16 doesn't fit the other verses.
Step 4: Assuming you concluded from step 3 that WORLD has various meanings in different verses, you should, if fairly minded say that it is possible that your original definition of WORLD in Step 1 is incorrect. May be it is correct, maybe not.
Step 5: Bible hermeneutics 101 (got to use big words so sounds like I know what I am talking about) You should always determine meaning of implicit verses by explicit verses. Thus, you should say ... hmm, maybe I am uncertain of the meaning of the word WORLD in John 3:16.
Step 6: People with my bias say WORLD means the Gentiles as well as the Jews... one guy I read said WORLD is the elect. Who knows for sure. Point is to look for explicit verses to clarify implicit (personal bias) verses.

Bedtime ... will look at Part 2 tomorrow .... Thanks for being patient with me ... was fun

 

[Fastfredy0]

Wondering:
Speaking of which and going on a temporary tangent ... few questions for you concerning: When we are given "free will" and who is given "free will".

Footnote: All questions in regard to salvation as there is a lot of discussion on that subject in the bible in regard to decisions. (Since the bible does not speak much on whether we 'freely chose/God choses' "french fries" or "onion rings".

When we are given "free will" and who is given "free will" questions
1) Concerning babies, mentally handicapped, the aborted, etc ... Do they have "free will" or does God chose their salvific destiny?
2) Concerning those that have never heard the gospel. I am going on the assumption you believe they go to hell as "faith cometh by hearing" and 'we are saved by faith' and Romans 1 saying 'they are without excuse'. So, do they have 'free will' or does God chose their salvific destiny? (aside: if you think they can be saved, what is the method?)
3) Can those that are dead have 'free will'?
4a) Assuming we have 'free will' to chose, can those who chose to believe (or saved) use their 'free will' to change their minds (not believe) or does God take away their 'free will' once they have believed?
4b) If you believe a person continues to have 'free will' through their lifetime .... then assuming person believes/disbelieves on alternate days (yeah, silly but you get the point) and considering God determines when we die (Job 14:5) ... isn't it God that determines if this wayward person is saved? ... that person is playing the 'free will' salvific lottery.
5) When we get to heaven, does God take away our 'free will'? Assuming you believe we no longer have 'free will' in heaven, isn't that the method whereby we show God we love Him? If we have 'free will' in heaven, can we get demoted to hell?
6) You define 'free will' as the ability to chose without external interference. Given I did not chose to be given a sin nature/born in sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3), it seems that this is 'interference' and therefore I am not free to chose/ I do not have 'free will' as a 'sin nature' is influencing me negatively (like having no wings influences my desire to fly). Comment please

 

[Fastfredy0]

Part 1 of 2 (one of us has to type less..lol)

Dictionary Definitions of "free will":
1) the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
2) freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention (merriam-webster)
3) Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Wikipeda The rest of Wikipeda is discussion about 'free will' and not a concise/simple definition. It would be difficult to contend with a definition that runs 1,000 words. Hopefully, you are good with this shortened version.

John 3:16 is a free will verse about salvation. You just don't think so.
and if you want a free will verse on salvation,,,I'll post this one:

Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

John 3:16 does not promote 'free will' salvation ... no where in the verse does it say why one chooses to believe which is the crux of the debate. Your bias says the verse reads "whosoever believes [because of their unimpeded choice]". My bias says the verse reads "whosoever believes [because of regeneration by the Spirit]". In point of fact, the verse doesn't give the reason why one believes. It just say "whomever believes will be saved". You need a verse that gives the reason WHY. You can't assume a reason.

Romans 6:16 ... same analysis as John 3:16 ... the verse does not explicitly tell us what caused one to obey. Was it the Spirit of God indwelling us or because I can obey without external forces influencing me/'unimpeded'. Implicitly, the verse suggests we are impeded (non free will) as is uses the word "slaves" meaning "we are under the command of another". The verse sides with me. We are 'enslaved to Christ'' Romans 6:22 or slaves to satan Romans 6:20. Definition of slave: a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them ... note the word "forced" and therefore this cannot be "free will" as that is defined as "unimpeded/unforced". This is God or satan in control where satan is controlled by God; though God's control of satan not found in the verse. Hmmm, does satan have 'free will' in your opinion ? ... interesting.

So what is our source of faith, God chose to give it to His chosen (elect) or you were able to chose to believe unimpeded/free will?

• Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh.

Please learn the difference between
MAKING THINGS HAPPEN and
PERMITTING THINGS TO HAPPEN

Hardly seems fair that you get to define my side of the argument. I state that all things occur as decreed by God, either by "making" them happen or "permitting" them to happen. It is inappropriate that you force your definition on my beliefs. I do not believe God MAKES everything happen; rather, he decress/ordains everything to happen. Again, God plans everything and everything occurs either actively (MAKE) or passively (permit). (Maybe one of us has misread something) I see where MAKE fits, but I want to define it slightly differently as MAKE does not explicitly promote the 'passive' method of having something occur.

How could I be responsible for what I do if it's GOD that predestined me to do what I do?
And your "challenge" makes no sense in view of the fact that you believe God predetermined everything.

Verses showing God plan an evil event to occur, and it goes without saying then we are responsible for the sin committed. God predetermines sin but makes man accountable for his sin (Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28; Genesis 50:20) Please consider the verse show either show me that God did not plan the events or that evildoers in the events are not responsible.

My challenge that you did not accept was: I challenge you to stop sinning from this day forward. You have the advantage of having the Spirit dwelling in you so I am giving you a handicap. The challenge is to test YOUR beliefs, not mine. I don't believe you can stop sinning because of external influences, and you imply you can stop sinning because you have 'free will' (not controlled/influenced externally). Demostrate your 'free will'.

 

[Fastfredy0]

part 2 of 2

How can God be a JUST GOD if He makes me responsible for sinning when it is HE that makes me sin because He predetermined my action?
Do you now what JUST means?

Again, you have distorted my definition of how God controls things. Maybe it is a subtle difference. I get to control my definition. "God controls us either by MAKING us do or not do "X" or PERMITTING us to do or not do "X". The difference is subtle, but important. I get to determine my definitions/meanings, you get to define your meanings. We get to find perceived flaws in one another arguments.
I gave scriptural examples to show God plans our sin and we are responsible (Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28; Genesis 50:20) AGAIN, I must state God MAKES or PERMITS. This is important. I define my side of the argument. One verb is active, the other passive. I can throw a hammer at a car. I MAKE damage and I am responsible. I can allow a hammer to remain that someone dangled over a car on a string I know will break. I can PERMIT the hammer to fall or not fall. The person that dangled the hammer is responsible. Granted, it would be nice from the car owner's point of view that I removed the hammer before it fell. IT would be nice, in my opinion, if God saved everyone.
Do you (Fred) now what JUST means? Cheap shot, ouch

How do you know you are not one of those saved for a while?

Sorry, lost flow of discussion on that point. Not sure what you're getting at. Both sides of of debate have 'assurance of salvation' problems. Sorry, not sure where we are.

Here's some more from The Institutes:
Read it and weep....
The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mat 22: 14)

I suppose you interpret the verse ... few are chosen [by themselves]
I read it as ... few are chosen [by God]
Well, you can look at it as the bottle being half empty of half full. I ponder it and think, "why me, I have done nothing, yet I am an adopted son of God. I won the lottery times a ba-zillion. Not the way I would of done it, but His credentials are superior to mine, thank you".
You on the other hand (excuse for putting some word in your mouth here .. you can correct). You say, "I am so glad I am not like the other guy who does not believe. I studied your Word on independently accepted it as truth. I am more righteous than the non-believer. I, with Jesus sacrifice, together we save me from hell's fire. If it weren't for the verses that say I have nothing to boast about, I would be very proud of what I have done that so, so many other people decided not to do. Aside: Definition of work: Merriam-webster ... to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity.
Both sides of the debate have compassion (weep) of the unsaved. I don't think God does...

Of course in your belief system what we desire is what God desires. Hmm, I suppose. I would add caveats.
That's what compatible free will is. I suppose. I would add caveats.
God forces us to want what He wants.... Yes, the all wise one has decided His way is the best way. I'm good with that.
Nothing to do with what every other Christian denomination believes.... This needs clarification. The reformed are a minority. Most denominations in my experience, don't take a stance of the subject openly. The individuals of conservative (whatever 'conservative' means) churches, assuming they have done a fair amount of homework are split ... I don't know the ratio. Your side has an advantage for numbers, you have a majority because of the Roman Catholic church who is very much work based and 'free will' fits nicely into their program. You also have the advantage of 'free will' being the default. It is very difficult to perceive of the indwelling Spirit or His workings. Since we cannot empirically prove Him, it is the default/starting position for everyone is to assume "I DID IT/Free Will".
and what has been believed since Jesus returned to heaven. You can't prove that. I would say scripture disproves it; you, the opposite.

Aside: Your knowledge of scripture is excellent. I applaud that.
It is interesting that two people can have such polar opposite views of the same material. I know we all have bias'. Hmmm ...

Parting shot: John 1:12-13
Fred

 

[jasonc]

Buying things to,the point where the majority of millionaires here can't really,afford their home is good.majority of water we cut off is those

Americans on average have a debt of 10k or more . I can really go on and on about this ,bankruptcy forces one to really look at how the system works .

 

[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0

Fred,,,,
We'll be able to have a nice, friendly convo.
But I think my time won't permit these longs posts.

I'll take one paragraph at a time and we could discuss each one for a few posts.
Then go on to the next.
You'll find that I don't care to go on ad infinitum since we're here to discuss and we
won't be changing our minds.

Is this OK with you?

 

[jasonc]

Fastfredy0

Fred,,,,
We'll be able to have a nice, friendly convo.
But I think my time won't permit these longs posts.

I'll take one paragraph at a time and we could discuss each one for a few posts.
Then go on to the next.
You'll find that I don't care to go on ad infinitum since we're here to discuss and we
won't be changing our minds.

Is this OK with you?

Well we could have trump extradite you from popelandia.the papal state aka Italia.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well we could have trump extradite you from popelandia.the papal state aka Italia.

That would give me more time??
Yeah. But I'd have jetlag.
And I'm not used to snow anymore.
You want another snowbird???

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fastfredy0

Fred,,,,
We'll be able to have a nice, friendly convo.
But I think my time won't permit these longs posts.

I'll take one paragraph at a time and we could discuss each one for a few posts.
Then go on to the next.
You'll find that I don't care to go on ad infinitum since we're here to discuss and we
won't be changing our minds.

Is this OK with you?

Fine.... we can end the discussion any time you like. Thx for the courtesy of asking.

 

[jasonc]

That would give me more time??
Yeah. But I'd have jetlag.
And I'm not used to snow anymore.
You want another snowbird???

You,would,be extradited to los Angeles .

 

[GodsGrace]

Fine.... we can end the discussion any time you like. Thx for the courtesy of asking.

I just printed out the pages so I could take one item at a time and we could discuss.
I have 7 pages!!!
Yeah. I think we both type fast and like to chatter...
LOL

Midnight here.
tomorrow...

Maybe we could write a book??

 

[GodsGrace]

You,would,be extradited to los Angeles .

You're extraditing me all over the place!
I better stay here!

'Night Jason.
?

 

[jasonc]

You're extraditing me all over the place!
I better stay here!

'Night Jason.
?

You are a snowbird,the gators here and natives are quite hungry .

Gators prefer Italian .

 

[GodsGrace]

You are a snowbird,the gators here and natives are quite hungry .

Gators prefer Italian .

Yeah. Italians are GREAT!!

I gotta go...past midnight.
Will answer your other long post tomorrow.
GOOD NIGHT AGAIN!!

 

[jasonc]

Yeah. Italians are GREAT!!

I gotta go...past midnight.
Will answer your other long post tomorrow.
GOOD NIGHT AGAIN!!

Hand gestures,lol

 

[Fastfredy0]

I just printed out the pages so I could take one item at a time and we could discuss.
I have 7 pages!!!
Yeah. I think we both type fast and like to chatter...
LOL

Midnight here.
tomorrow...

Maybe we could write a book??

I took typing in high school, so hopefully you don't have too great an advantage on me in that area. I need all the help I can get. Have a good night.

 

[Avigdor]

Some believe that God, being a Sovereign God, must control everything...
this is determinism, or predestination.

They believe that if God is NOT in complete control of EVERYTHING,
then He would not be a Sovereign God.

What is a defense against this?

There is no such thing as partly sovereign. He either is or He isn't. Since He says He is in nearly every passage of the Bible, directly or by implication, I'll go with He is sovereign. Which means He is sovereign over our will. Not entirely a free will then? The fact that He largely lets us go our own way and do our own thing, and lets the fallen world wind itself down because of our "freedom", does not mean He is not sovereign. It does not mean our will trumps his. It means He has sovereignly allowed this as long as it does not interfere with His purpose. Buck up against His will and you will discover your will is not so free. And I am not talking about His revealed will, the things He tells us in His word, I'm talking about His hidden will, the things we cannot see and do not know.

 

[Avigdor]

There are some verses in the N.T. that DO make it sound as if God predestines everything.
This would have to mean that man has no free will.

You have a will and you are free to exercise it. But it is not entirely free. Your will like the rest of yourself is ultimately subject to God. You are His creature after all.
Hope that doesn't scare you. That you might not have a will that is absolutely free!

 

[Fastfredy0]

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will. His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted; nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign in principle, but sovereign in practice. His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i.e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any. (Psalm 115:3)

Faith is God’s gracious gift to His elect. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65). “Nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him” (Matthew 11:27). James 1:18 It was of His own will that He gave us birth [as His children] John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD.

 

[Avigdor]

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will. His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted; nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign in principle, but sovereign in practice. His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i.e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any. (Psalm 115:3)

Faith is God’s gracious gift to His elect. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65). “Nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him” (Matthew 11:27). James 1:18 It was of His own will that He gave us birth [as His children] John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD.

Freddy,
You say things so much more clearly and precisely than I can! This post is superb. I do not know how anyone could not understand or disagree. Though I know they do, and that is all right, but when I read it I see an awesome God who is everything, so far above me, so beyond greatness and power and perfection that He is all I need. It comforts me to know He is in control of all things. There is no one and nothing I would trust implicitly but God. Certainly not myself and I'm a control freak!
I think one reason their is such resistance to Calvinism/Reformation Theology is because they don't understand or pay attention to covenants and God's relationship to His covenant people. So they are afraid, for many reasons, to see God in any of His attributes but love. They want to define what is just and fair. And for some reason it appears to me that they feel more secure in salvation if they think it depends on their choice, instead of actually trusting God with it. It is I admit, it certainly was for me, difficult to fathom God choosing me. I was frightened for a time trying to grasp such a thing even though it had become obvious to me from scripture that it was true. God does the choosing.

At the same time it gave me great comfort. This change of how I saw it happened some twenty years after my redemption. I had to, and still do sometimes, check that I beleived the things necessary for salvation. Did I really believe? And I always discover that it would be impossible for me to unbelieve. And that is the criteria, believing, even if a person has the process cattywampus. There is no reason for people to be wary of trusting God. If you believe, He did it.
Back to the covenants. I came across an excellant book in my study called Covenant Theology by Michael Horton. It was something I was not familiar with and it was a giant help and instigated a giant step forward in interpteting the Bible through that framework. It should be required reading! lol
Be blessed and keep posting.