Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

[DiscipleDave]

ddave



Not right now, for I have spent a lot of time studying and presenting my assertions, and my opposer's do not spend the same time dealing with what I posted, each assertion with their relevant Scripture, and then show and explain why I am wrong. So please spend time answering posts 137,138,139,147,148

Only then will i start answering questions that are nothing but evading the points I have already made !

i see, i went back to posts 137, 138, 139, 147, and 148 and i seen no question whatsoever asked in these posts. How am i to know that you want me to respond to your statements without even asking me too? You say spend time answering your posts, but i do not see any questions asked, Also were you specifically asking me to address what you posted, this i did not see either

Please do not take offense by my next statement, but i like to have conversations with people on these posts, someone makes a comment, i reply, they reply back, i then reply, they reply back. But Truthfully i rarely read posts like 137, continued to 138 continued to 139, and so forth. This is not a conversation but a lecture. it would take me a hundred posts to respond to posts 137, 138, 139 etc... instead, present ONE point, to which i can respond to, then present another point, then discuss that. i am sorry if that offends you, in saying that i do not even read posts like that, they are way to long, and it feels like they are leaving the other person out of the conversation. Now if you want me to respond to something you ask or comment, then address me, or quote me so that i know you are asking me a question. i always try to answer questions presented to me, it is not uncommon to receive 70 emails a day to which i try to respond to them all in the order that i receive them.

If i have offended you in some way by not answering posts of yours, i am sorry, i did not know they were to me, nor that you were waiting for a response from me, in order for you to continue talking with me or to answer question that i have specifically asked you to answer. So that this does not happen again, please address me when you want me to answer a specific question, and please do not make it a book, because then i will post hundreds of posts in response to the book that you have presented. But so that we do not offend other posters in the gazillion posts, let us keep it simple, say a couple of comments, or a couple of questions then allow me time to respond to those couple, then present more after that, but please not all at once, then be offended when people don't respond to your lengthy posts. i am thinking now that this post is lengthy and will end it.

Again, sorry if i have offended you in some way, it was not my intentions.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Questions:

How did Jesus show His Love for the inhabitants of Heaven, before the Earth was ever created?

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continue each line a gazillion times a gazillion more times.

This represents eternity. Now the 7th letter j above is the amount of time the Earth and humankind existed in eternity, which is only a mere week in the Kingdom of Heaven time. Where was Jesus prior to the 7th letter j, what existed before the Earth and humankind was created? Jesus was the Son of God in all the letters prior to the Earth being created, and will be the Son of God after the 7th letter j is completed (testing of humankind over) Jesus has always been, BEFORE and AFTER the Earth is created. lucifer also was present before the Earth was created in the 7th letter j. he worshiped and served Jesus for eternity prior to the Earth being created. Jesus did NOT need sin to show or reveal His LOVE for the inhabitant of Heaven, He was showing them, and revealing Love to them for eternity prior to the Earth ever being thought of. He did not need sin then either to show His love for the inhabitants of Heaven, What does Scriptures say LOVE is, it gives a list does it not, doing those things is what reveals what love is. God is LOVE, sin is not love, nor does it reveal love. sin exists, and is allowed to exist for one purpose only, to test humans to see how they will react to it, how they choose to do it or choose not to do it, if they love it, or hate it. Sin is here so that humans are tested to see who they love, if they obey sin, they love that sin, because they are not willing to give up that sin for Jesus Christ. But if they love Jesus, they will not knowingly and willingly obey His enemy the devil and commit sins, which they know full well are against the very person they say they follow and obey. Who you obey is your master. If you obey sin, then that is your master, if you obey Jesus which tells you not to sin, then He is your Master.

We are all here to be tested, and Judgement Day will determine how we did. i pray that all of you follow and obey Jesus Christ.

^i^

 

[smaller]

we are discussing two entirely different things, i am discussing how sin started, not the effects of it now.
God uses whatever means He uses, to test us, sin serves His purpose, this is True, however what i have been discussing is the start of sin, God did not create sin, lucifer did.

I certainly agree that it is problematic to sever Satan from sin.

It is just as problematic to sever the Creator from the creation Him making all of same, of which Satan is 'a subclass' entity (and his own) unique therein. The thread starter mentioned earlier 'First Cause' and I accept that connection of FIRST CAUSE.

They are anti-Christ spirits. Kind of strange when you think about it.

Now granted once it was created by lucifer. God uses it and creates it as well in order to test humans.

Covered this before with many. Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning and had no truth in him. That is in fact how our Creator created that entity class. They were never Holy Angels gone bad. That is a christian fairy tale. In fact in todays world of theology many can't even accept that there are such entities.

please please read my article on "The Meaning of Life" to understand what God has revealed to me concerning this sin issue, and all humans here on Earth to be tested.

Jesus told us exactly how these matters work. I can tell you right now that were I to read your site above there would be no references whatsoever about what factually happened to Adam.

Jesus tells us 'how' sin gets it's hold in any of us. But to understand this matter it has to be taken personally. The pride of the devil is made to automatically blind the reader to the fact of it. Mark 4:15 and the associated parables tells us how these matters transpired, and there is no use saying the same thing didn't happen to Adam.

This is True, speaking of mankind. Again we are talking about two entirely different things. i am talking about before mankind was even thought of, before the Earth was ever created. The Earth and mankind were created after sin was found in Heaven, by and through lucifer, which was also in Heaven.

I certainly don't discount that as a possibility. Though it is a deep stretch in the text. We could probably make a separate thread just on this matter alone. Problem is few delve into some of these areas. My own consideration and only for a brief touch on this matter is that Satan was the covering cherub of the sons of God prior to our earthly birth. Adam for example was Gods son. If this is the case, and it is, then Adam was in some form 'in God' prior to his arrival in the flesh. As were all of Israel Gods children. Same deal. But this would be an area of hard discussions.

There are so many allegories and connections to this matter it would overwhelm those not used to dealing in that arena.

I'd even speculate that the angel wings that 'covered' the mercy seat in the O.T. was in fact a picture of the covering cherub, BLOCKING eternal mercy from our view.

But some of this stuff is not for novices and it can be quite pointless to exchange.

In the end, even in the form of evil personified, Satan is Gods servant.

I have found no use to 'excuse' God from using that evil power for His Divine Purposes of which there are many given in the text. And beneficial on more counts than I can measure.

True, in the beginning of the Earth and mankind that is all true. But there was God prior to Adam being created, there was a Heaven prior to the Earth being thought of by God. Heaven has always been. Heaven was not created just because the Earth was created nor was Heaven created because God created Adam. i am talking about BEFORE Adam, BEFORE Earth. Sin was in Heaven, created by lucifer an inhabitant in Heaven.

I would probably go there as well if for no other reason, seeing that Satan was a murderer and a liar from 'his' beginning, whenever that was. I also consider that his casting to earth was in fact into the Garden as referenced in Revelation and noted by Jesus also in the Gospels seeing that matter in the past tense application.

Jesus' plain and open statements were to the created humans on the planet Earth. Do you not know that Jesus existed prior to the Earth being created billions and billions and billions times billions of years.

Again and of course. There is in fact no way to logically 'separate' Jesus from God. Without beginning or end. Hard to get ones head around that. In fact it's meant NOT to get our heads around. That is part of the contemplative value of 'eternal matters.' They are basically unlimited in whatever direction one wants to meditate upon them. It's a heart blessing.

For some reason humans can't grasp that there was a Kingdom of Heaven, prior to the Earth being created. What Jesus said in the Word of God is to humans here on this tiny planet. Jesus has said much more stuff then what we have written, because Jesus existed before the Earth was ever created. lucifer existed as well before the Earth was ever created, lucifer was one of billions times billions times billions of inhabitants of Heaven, residing and living in the Kingdom of God, with Jesus on the Throne. i am not referring to the smaller picture of humankind's existence which in its entirety is but a vapor of smoke in eternity. i am referring to the Kingdom of Heaven, prior to all that Jesus said to humans, prior to the Earth even being created. Again, we are talking about two different things.

I do take note from an obscure notation in Job where all the sons of God were present on star creation day. How far back that may extend, who knows. Certainly not as we might perceive it. Job 38:6-7.

i know not what they believe, however the book of Mormon teaches no such thing. Your statement above saying that i have equated Jesus with satan, again you seem to be stuck in what is now, the present, in this life. Yes it would be an evil thing to do, to equate Jesus with satan NOW, in this life. AFTER lucifer created sin. Oh by the way, i take no offense at your accusation towards me, i know it is because we are not on the same page.

I only noted it as that is one of their claims. I personally don't buy that equality as Satan was obviously created. Jesus not, being God. There is a unique distinction made between Creator and all created things. They do not equate to being the same.

That is also part of the mystery of Gods Appearance within His Own creation in His Image.

You thought i was equating Jesus with satan now, when i was not, i only said that lucifer was in Heaven with Jesus, and everyone in Heaven was perfect and worshiped God, they all worshiped Jesus Christ, even lucifer. Tell me, before the Earth was created where do you think lucifer dwelt? lucifer is an immortal being, he has always existed as an immortal being, before the Earth or humans was created, where did lucifer live? Before the Earth was created ALL of the Universe was considered the Kingdom of Heaven. as i have said before lucifer was an inhabitant of the Kingdom of Heaven, he lived there and worshiped there,

I might say 'anti-worship' would be more like it...

They finally got fed up with him and tossed him. I might even say that was a form of separation of LIGHT from DARKNESS, spiritually speaking to anti-spiritually speaking. And yes, it could very well have been a long long time ago as we perceive time. No disclosures given. Would probably short circuit the entire world of theology...

and he as all the other inhabitants did, sang and praised Jesus. but one day lucifer wanted more, sin was found in him, he is the father of sin itself, because lucifer created that desire to want more then he had, he wanted to be worshiped instead of being the one to worship. God did not create this desire in lucifer, that desire was created by lucifer himself, sin was born in lucifer, he is the father of it, because he created it, he started it. Once started, God had to deal with it. That is why there was a war in Heaven, that is why the Earth was created, that is why humans were created to be tested to see who they want to the serve, the devil or God. Who you choose to obey is who you choose to be your Master.

I don't know from where you are pulling any good thing out of the text as it applies to Satan. I don't see it whatsoever. A perfect devil is and remains a devil regardless. The word perfect in and of itself does not imply automatic perfection as we might normally and instantly think of perfect. There Is Perfect God, perfect men, perfect messengers or angels on both sides of the ledgers, Holy and BAD/EVIL. The term angel also does not mean automatic 'holy' either, but 'messenger.' God can and does send us messengers both good and evil.

This is True, and i have said no differently, nor have i implied any differently, maybe your understanding of what i have been saying is in error, just ask me if that is what i am meaning, instead of assuming that i mean this or that.
This is most certainly true as well, God does create evil to suit His purpose, i have said no differently. The difference is, i am discussing how sin came about, God did not create evil in lucifer, that was all lucifers doing and the sole reason he was kicked out of Heaven, to no longer participate in the Kingdom of Heaven. God does create evil on the Earth and He does allow it on the Earth to serve His purpose which is to test all spirits that are in human flesh. This however does not mean God created evil in lucifer. Everything was fine in the Kingdom of Heaven, perfect, no problems, no wars, perfectness. UNTIL lucifer, by his own self, and through his own desires created sin in himself. This is why the Earth was created and humankind with it.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive;

True, during the generation of humankind, this is absolutely True, but before this He never killed, there was no need to, no reason to, no testing done, nothing to kill. Before the Earth was created, there was no death. Only immortality. Even the spirit that is inside of each of us will not die, it is immortal, our flesh will die, but the spirit will either live for eternity in Heaven, or eternity not in Heaven. The spirit inside of you doesn't know death, it, like lucifer, has always existed.

Hope this has helped in some way.

^i^

Yeah, we're probably pretty close except for trying to make Satan something that he never was, holy, good or acceptably worshipping. That would be a stretch to me. If I could see it in the text I could measure that, but it's not there and also requires us to alter what Jesus said about the devil in John 8:44. That's another problem that the view brings. What beginning? I would say his beginning. And there is no indication of prior perfection other than being a perfect devil. Wicked, sinning, liar murderer with no truth in him.

Freewillers often like the story of the once Holy Satan gone bad from bad decisions. It's a fairy tale used to support that false doctrine.

Anyway thanks for presenting a pleasant exchange. A minor glitch here or there is good for all of us to look at.

s

 

[DiscipleDave]

I certainly agree that it is problematic to sever Satan from sin.

It is just as problematic to sever the Creator from the creation Him making all of same, of which Satan is 'a subclass' entity (and his own) unique therein. The thread starter mentioned earlier 'First Cause' and I accept that connection of FIRST CAUSE.

They are anti-Christ spirits. Kind of strange when you think about it.

the difference is you say they were created anti-christs, i say they became that way, in other words they were not anti-christs until lucifer convinced them to be such. but they, like lucifer himself, were created perfect.

Covered this before with many. Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning and had no truth in him.

Again the difference is you teach that "that beginning" was of his creation, i teach that "that beginning" is the beginning of sin, the beginning of satan, the beginning of the Father of sin. you are not a father until you have a son or a daughter, lucifer was a father of nothing, until sin was BORN in him, then at that beginning did he become the Father of lies and all sin.

That is in fact how our Creator created that entity class. They were never Holy Angels gone bad. That is a christian fairy tale. In fact in todays world of theology many can't even accept that there are such entities.

the difference is, you teach that the creator would create something that would rebel against Him, and cause war in Heaven, and cause division in Heaven. i was told that the creator created LOVE, PEACE, and all the other attributes of what makes LOVE, love. and that He created all things PERFECT, He created all things HOLY, PURE, GOOD. and one of His creations went sour, that a Holy created being that God created, in turn created sin in himself, by thinking he can take the Throne of God, and then he convinced other HOLY created beings to rebel against the very creator who created them.

Tell me something a thought came to me just now. if you think and believe that God created lucifer to be the devil, to be evil, to be wicked, and he created him PERFECTLY EVIL, then why is God according to Scriptures going to cast satan and his followers in Hell, when satan is doing exactly as God created him to do? Why is satan going to be cast into Hell for all eternity if he is doing exactly as God created him to do? Unless God did not create him to do what He is doing, but did in fact create him PERFECT just like all the other Holy beings, and his punishment for creating sin is everlasting punishment in Hell fire. Doesn't make since to me believing that God who created satan to be evil and to be satan is going to cast him into Hell fire for all eternity for doing exactly what God created him to do, if in fact God created satan to be as he is. Do you see the error in this thinking?

Jesus told us exactly how these matters work. I can tell you right now that were I to read your site above there would be no references whatsoever about what factually happened to Adam.

your probably right, what i revealed in "The Meaning of Life" is what God told me happened. i know that sounds crazy but it is still True.

My own consideration and only for a brief touch on this matter is that Satan was the covering cherub of the sons of God prior to our earthly birth.

it was to my understanding that you teach that satan was created to be the devil, to be evil, and that he was specifically created to be such, if that were true, how are you now saying satan was the covering cherub of the Sons of God, why a covering cherub, if he was created to be the perfect devil as you teach? or maybe it is as i was told, that he was the covering cherub, and great honor in the Kingdom of Heaven to behold the Father in His Glory, and he was indeed a son of God being that all the inhabitants of Heaven were sons and daughters of God, and that one day lucifer, in his own selfish desires, desired MORE, thus sin being born in him, because he was not content with what he had, he was greedy and wanted MORE. God did not create him to be greedy, to cause war, to cause rebellion. God created lucifer a holy being, perfectly He created him, but he through his own desires sinned against God, and became the father of it, being that he created it

Adam for example was Gods son. If this is the case, and it is, then Adam was in some form 'in God' prior to his arrival in the flesh. As were all of Israel Gods children. Same deal. But this would be an area of hard discussions.

know you not that it is written "ye are gods" we are all children of God, we are either disobedient children of God or obedient children of God. The spirit that is within us all, is in fact immortal, it is indeed an offspring of God Himself, we, that is to say the spirit that is in us, is a part of God. Adam was a son of God because the spirit that is in Adam came from God. lucifer also is a son of God, for he too came from God, and he too is immortal.

In the end, even in the form of evil personified, Satan is Gods servant.

Yet God is going to cast him into Hell for all eternity for doing what he was created to do? Is that what you are saying? God creates satan to be a perfect devil, yet casts him into Hell for being a perfect devil, is that what you are saying?

I would probably go there as well if for no other reason, seeing that Satan was a murderer and a liar from 'his' beginning,

you say 'his' beginning, which implies the beginning of his creation, this is not what Scriptures implies.

whenever that was. I also consider that his casting to earth was in fact into the Garden as referenced in Revelation and noted by Jesus also in the Gospels seeing that matter in the past tense application.

Scriptures teach he was cast to the Earth, not into the Garden, he was allowed into the garden.

I do take note from an obscure notation in Job where all the sons of God were present on star creation day. How far back that may extend, who knows. Certainly not as we might perceive it. Job 38:6-7.
I only noted it as that is one of their claims. I personally don't buy that equality as Satan was obviously created. Jesus not, being God. There is a unique distinction made between Creator and all created things. They do not equate to being the same.

True, however you act as if a created thing cant create something himself. God creates man, man creates nuclear bombs. Does God create nuclear bombs? No He doesn't have to, He can just make an asteroid hit here He desires it to hit. my point is God does not create nuclear bombs, the created creates things of destruction. God created man, man creates nuclear bombs. God creates all the inhabitants of Heaven, and one of them creates sin.

They finally got fed up with him and tossed him.

i don't understand, why would God toss him out of Heaven if he were doing exactly as God created him to do? my point is you say and teach that God created satan to be the PERFECT EVIL, So then God created him so He could toss him out of Heaven when they got fed up with him? If God created him to be a certain way, and he then is that certain way, why would God banish him from Heaven, kick him out, when he is only doing what you say God created him to do?

I might even say that was a form of separation of LIGHT from DARKNESS,

Is God about unity or division? Doesn't God teach to be of one mind? If Jesus teaches us that we can be ONE with Him and the Father, why would God create an entity that would be the very opposite of what HE stands for and teaches? God is light.

Yeah, we're probably pretty close except for trying to make Satan something that he never was, holy, good or acceptably worshipping.

Tell me, before sin was found in him, what would he have been considered before sin was found in him? Maybe without sin?

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

this verse plainly teaches that he was created perfect until when? till sin was found in him. So tell me before sin was in him, was he sinless? Also, what did he do for eternity BEFORE the point in which sin was found in him?

That would be a stretch to me. If I could see it in the text I could measure that, but it's not there and also requires us to alter what Jesus said about the devil in John 8:44. That's another problem that the view brings. What beginning? I would say his beginning. And there is no indication of prior perfection other than being a perfect devil. Wicked, sinning, liar murderer with no truth in him.

So what you are saying is that he could be a devil, but have no sin whatsoever? Is that what you are saying? Again, how could he have been wicked, or sinning, or a liar, or a murderer BEFORE sin was found in him? this is where you belief has some serious flaws. he was not the devil before sin was found in him, the sin found in him is what makes him a devil. The sin being found in him is what made him to lie to the others, the sin being found in him, is what makes him a sinner. But as i have said and keep on saying, PRIOR to sin being found in him, was he sinless? Perfect as the Scriptures says he was, until when? until (indicates not that way prior to this point) UNTIL sin was found in him. So i ask you describe to me a created devil that had no sin, was not a sinner, (not until sin was found in him)
People believe the Word of God and what it plainly teaches. lucifer was sinless according to the Word of God, because it plainly says until sin was found in him, indicating that prior to this sin was NOT found in him. Believe the Bible not what men teach.

Freewillers often like the story of the once Holy Satan gone bad from bad decisions. It's a fairy tale used to support that false doctrine.

you call it false doctrine, because you do not believe this verse:

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

you interpret it to fit your own belief, so that it does not contradict what you believe and teach. Brother be careful what you call false doctrine if it is not false doctrine but is the doctrine of God. The Word of God plainly teaches that Lucifer wast perfect in all his ways from the day that he was created, UNTIL sin was found in him. This is what Scriptures plainly teach, Scriptures are not false doctrines, false doctrines are born when people misinterpret Scriptures and then teach people those interpretations. i have pointed out several flaws in your belief in hopes to help you see the Truth. If God created lucifer to be the perfect devil, why then does the Bible teach the devil will be punished and cast into Hell for all eternity, if he is merely doing what he is created to do, why is God going to punish him with all the other wicked? Seems to me, if God did create lucifer to be the Perfect devil then God would bless him and welcome him back in to Heaven once he does what he is created to do? lol. Believe the Bible and what it teaches, satan is going to be punished because he chose, by his own self to be wicked, to be evil, to sin against God. Believe the Bible not men and their teachings.

Anyway thanks for presenting a pleasant exchange. A minor glitch here or there is good for all of us to look at.
s

You are most welcome, i love doing what i am called to do, and that is to reveal those things that He has told me to reveal, to teach those things which He told me to teach. There is nothing else that is better then doing what i am called to do, basically to refute false doctrines that is why i have a website running 24/7 to refute all the false doctrines that is being taught in this last days generation. Well must go for now, it has been a pleasant exchange

^i^

 

[smaller]

the difference is you say they were created anti-christs, i say they became that way, in other words they were not anti-christs until lucifer convinced them to be such. but they, like lucifer himself, were created perfect.

Well, as stated prior. Were there texts showing Satan once holy you'd have a point, but there are none.

He and his own are the 'covering cherub' family overlaid upon mankind. They serve their present purposes.

Again the difference is you teach that "that beginning" was of his creation, i teach that "that beginning" is the beginning of sin, the beginning of satan, the beginning of the Father of sin. you are not a father until you have a son or a daughter, lucifer was a father of nothing, until sin was BORN in him, then at that beginning did he become the Father of lies and all sin.

Then Jesus should have said: There used to be truth in him.

He didn't.

The truth is, Satan, like all of creation, serves Gods Purposes.

the difference is, you teach that the creator would create something that would rebel against Him, and cause war in Heaven, and cause division in Heaven. i was told that the creator created LOVE, PEACE, and all the other attributes of what makes LOVE, love.

If you carved out a little tin soldier would you fear it?

The difficult concept to understand about God is that many 'excuse' God from evil and all the bad things in the world.

And some will consider Him far greater than the sum of His creation, able to do all the good and perfect things you prescribe and using the power of evil, turning it to good by His Own Power in Superiority.

The latter sight requires no excuses. He Is in fact far Greater.

and that He created all things PERFECT, He created all things HOLY, PURE, GOOD.

Whew. There is only One Perfect.

All other things in creation by order of basic difference may be 'perfect' in their sub standard comparison but there is only One Measure of True Perfection. And Him far Greater than all things, forever.

Creation is a participant and an observer.

and one of His creations went sour, that a Holy created being that God created, in turn created sin in himself, by thinking he can take the Throne of God, and then he convinced other HOLY created beings to rebel against the very creator who created them.

The stretch you seem to be reaching for does not exist in the text. God Himself created all powers including the power of evil and the power of death.

Satan is a personification of both. The anti-Christ spirit has those powers in this present world. And had them prior as well, as that is the role he was made for.

Tell me something a thought came to me just now. if you think and believe that God created lucifer to be the devil, to be evil, to be wicked, and he created him PERFECTLY EVIL, then why is God according to Scriptures going to cast satan and his followers in Hell, when satan is doing exactly as God created him to do?

IF God fashioned those characters, those automatic resistors, what purposes do you think they serve?

Will give you one thought to contemplate on this matter. It is found in Romans 11:32. Go read it and get back to me. Show me what you might have garnered from the exposure of being bound to disobedience.

Why is satan going to be cast into Hell for all eternity if he is doing exactly as God created him to do?

The Lake of Fire is, in essence, an anti-heaven for the anti-Christ spirits.

Unless God did not create him to do what He is doing, but did in fact create him PERFECT just like all the other Holy beings, and his punishment for creating sin is everlasting punishment in Hell fire. Doesn't make since to me believing that God who created satan to be evil and to be satan is going to cast him into Hell fire for all eternity for doing exactly what God created him to do, if in fact God created satan to be as he is. Do you see the error in this thinking?

God assuredly created Satan and for His exact intentions, start to finish. I have no issues with that whatsoever. I mentioned one use of that anti-power above and what it is used to garner back to God and also provided to us who believe. There are many more matters to observe 'in the Word' in this regards.

your probably right, what i revealed in "The Meaning of Life" is what God told me happened. i know that sounds crazy but it is still True.

I try not to lean to imaginations outside of text. What is already written is difficult enough to get our heads around without falling into imaginary subjectivity. Though reasoning with the scriptures is in fact reasoning with God. And that is something all His Children are called to do.

it was to my understanding that you teach that satan was created to be the devil, to be evil,

I don't teach it. Scripture does. God, from His Own Mouth in the scriptures says He created evil. There is a personification of the powers of evil, sin and death. Those personifications are the anti-Christ spirits, the opposition party presently in play. But it is problematic to perceive them as they are obviously 'unseen' by flesh eyes.

Various Word handlers that I have enjoyed time with have described them as Gods sock puppets, resisting anti-spiritual robots, etc etc. If we picture them as temporary powers that will be encompassed, dismantled and shut off by The Power of LIFE, it's probably pretty close to accurate.

It's an interesting contemplation.

and that he was specifically created to be such, if that were true, how are you now saying satan was the covering cherub of the Sons of God, why a covering cherub, if he was created to be the perfect devil as you teach?

I'd like to say that these are matters of observances or reflections upon what is written, not 'what I teach.'

Ezekiel 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Believers are meant to see these matters through spiritual perception eyes. They are not matters we lay our eyes of flesh upon.

If there are presently blockers placed upon us, hindering our perceptions of eternal spiritual matters, that would be the role of the covering cherub. And that power is in fact in play on both of us and everyone else. That is also why we will both have difficulties in sharing these sights, as does everyone else.

or maybe it is as i was told, that he was the covering cherub, and great honor in the Kingdom of Heaven to behold the Father in His Glory, and he was indeed a son of God being that all the inhabitants of Heaven were sons and daughters of God, and that one day lucifer, in his own selfish desires, desired MORE, thus sin being born in him, because he was not content with what he had, he was greedy and wanted MORE. God did not create him to be greedy, to cause war, to cause rebellion. God created lucifer a holy being, perfectly He created him, but he through his own desires sinned against God, and became the father of it, being that he created it

I fail to see your purposes in trying to make Satan good prior. Sympathy for the devil maybe? Don't be pawned...:o

know you not that it is written "ye are gods" we are all children of God, we are either disobedient children of God or obedient children of God.

The present constructs are probably a little more interesting than just that. If for example the covering cherub covers all of us, for example we all sin and have sin and sin is in fact 'of the devil' we should never look at ourselves or others as 'just us alone.' That is NOT a fact. There are actually 3 parties to observe in the equations. God, us and the power of evil, the devil.

Observations of judgments are much more interesting when all the parties are on the table of fact.

But these facts are 'automatically' resisted by that later power that covers all of us currently. Once you perceive it for yourself, the fact of it will be shown to you not only in the text, but in living reality, continually.

It can be a hard blocked pill to swallow. Not every thought we have is 'our own.'

The spirit that is within us all, is in fact immortal, it is indeed an offspring of God Himself, we, that is to say the spirit that is in us, is a part of God. Adam was a son of God because the spirit that is in Adam came from God. lucifer also is a son of God, for he too came from God, and he too is immortal.

Uh, no, Satan, Lucifer is NOT a son of God. That is why I asked you earlier if you were a Mormon because that is what they claim.

There are zero such statements in the texts. For example, when sons of God come before him, Satan is shown to also come. This does not mean Satan was or is a son of God. His arrival is delineated and differentiated. The text is very interestingly constructed in this way. Just as you prior read 'perfection' and went into automatic 'Satanic Perfection' zone. That is a setup statement. And Satan uses it in people. It's really designed for you to question your own thoughts and you may find such thoughts are not alone. If you have no division understanding within you on this matter, you will not see.

If you are a son of God, and you are in my eyes, the only thing keeping you from glowing up the world is the covering cherub.

Yet God is going to cast him into Hell for all eternity for doing what he was created to do? Is that what you are saying? God creates satan to be a perfect devil, yet casts him into Hell for being a perfect devil, is that what you are saying?

Yep. Forever and ever, period.

I'm going to stop here because the balance of your post is pretty much a rehash of prior observed imaginations of an alt. form of Satan that you seem to have developed, kinda on your own, well, kinda not....

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

ddave

i see, i went back to posts 137, 138, 139, 147, and 148 and i seen no
question whatsoever asked in these posts.

Then deal with the comments of those posts, and then I will take questions in regards to the comments you make to the points I have made !

But you have to first show me that you understand the points i made and why !

 

[DiscipleDave]

Well, as stated prior. Were there texts showing Satan once holy you'd have a point, but there are none.

He and his own are the 'covering cherub' family overlaid upon mankind. They serve their present purposes.


Then Jesus should have said: There used to be truth in him.

He didn't.

The truth is, Satan, like all of creation, serves Gods Purposes.


If you carved out a little tin soldier would you fear it?

The difficult concept to understand about God is that many 'excuse' God from evil and all the bad things in the world.

And some will consider Him far greater than the sum of His creation, able to do all the good and perfect things you prescribe and using the power of evil, turning it to good by His Own Power in Superiority.

The latter sight requires no excuses. He Is in fact far Greater.



Whew. There is only One Perfect.

All other things in creation by order of basic difference may be 'perfect' in their sub standard comparison but there is only One Measure of True Perfection. And Him far Greater than all things, forever.

Creation is a participant and an observer.



The stretch you seem to be reaching for does not exist in the text. God Himself created all powers including the power of evil and the power of death.

Satan is a personification of both. The anti-Christ spirit has those powers in this present world. And had them prior as well, as that is the role he was made for.


IF God fashioned those characters, those automatic resistors, what purposes do you think they serve?

Will give you one thought to contemplate on this matter. It is found in Romans 11:32. Go read it and get back to me. Show me what you might have garnered from the exposure of being bound to disobedience.


The Lake of Fire is, in essence, an anti-heaven for the anti-Christ spirits.



God assuredly created Satan and for His exact intentions, start to finish. I have no issues with that whatsoever. I mentioned one use of that anti-power above and what it is used to garner back to God and also provided to us who believe. There are many more matters to observe 'in the Word' in this regards.



I try not to lean to imaginations outside of text. What is already written is difficult enough to get our heads around without falling into imaginary subjectivity. Though reasoning with the scriptures is in fact reasoning with God. And that is something all His Children are called to do.



I don't teach it. Scripture does. God, from His Own Mouth in the scriptures says He created evil. There is a personification of the powers of evil, sin and death. Those personifications are the anti-Christ spirits, the opposition party presently in play. But it is problematic to perceive them as they are obviously 'unseen' by flesh eyes.

Various Word handlers that I have enjoyed time with have described them as Gods sock puppets, resisting anti-spiritual robots, etc etc. If we picture them as temporary powers that will be encompassed, dismantled and shut off by The Power of LIFE, it's probably pretty close to accurate.

It's an interesting contemplation.


I'd like to say that these are matters of observances or reflections upon what is written, not 'what I teach.'

Ezekiel 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Believers are meant to see these matters through spiritual perception eyes. They are not matters we lay our eyes of flesh upon.

If there are presently blockers placed upon us, hindering our perceptions of eternal spiritual matters, that would be the role of the covering cherub. And that power is in fact in play on both of us and everyone else. That is also why we will both have difficulties in sharing these sights, as does everyone else.



I fail to see your purposes in trying to make Satan good prior. Sympathy for the devil maybe? Don't be pawned...:o



The present constructs are probably a little more interesting than just that. If for example the covering cherub covers all of us, for example we all sin and have sin and sin is in fact 'of the devil' we should never look at ourselves or others as 'just us alone.' That is NOT a fact. There are actually 3 parties to observe in the equations. God, us and the power of evil, the devil.

Observations of judgments are much more interesting when all the parties are on the table of fact.

But these facts are 'automatically' resisted by that later power that covers all of us currently. Once you perceive it for yourself, the fact of it will be shown to you not only in the text, but in living reality, continually.

It can be a hard blocked pill to swallow. Not every thought we have is 'our own.'


Uh, no, Satan, Lucifer is NOT a son of God. That is why I asked you earlier if you were a Mormon because that is what they claim.

There are zero such statements in the texts. For example, when sons of God come before him, Satan is shown to also come. This does not mean Satan was or is a son of God. His arrival is delineated and differentiated. The text is very interestingly constructed in this way. Just as you prior read 'perfection' and went into automatic 'Satanic Perfection' zone. That is a setup statement. And Satan uses it in people. It's really designed for you to question your own thoughts and you may find such thoughts are not alone. If you have no division understanding within you on this matter, you will not see.

If you are a son of God, and you are in my eyes, the only thing keeping you from glowing up the world is the covering cherub.



Yep. Forever and ever, period.

I'm going to stop here because the balance of your post is pretty much a rehash of prior observed imaginations of an alt. form of Satan that you seem to have developed, kinda on your own, well, kinda not....

s

Well, i believe what He told me concerning what happened in Heaven. i will continue to believe the Word of God and what it plainly teaches, that satan existed prior to sin being found in him. That is what the Word of God teaches plainly.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Tell me if you will answer, was he HOLY before sin was found in him?

You see to believe you, i would have to not believe the Word of God. So is it not better for me to believe the Word of God then to believe what men teach? The above verse plainly says that he was perfect UNTIL sin was found in him. Do you teach this, or do you teach something other that what this verse says? Sorry brother, but i believe the Word of God and what it teaches.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

ddave



Then deal with the comments of those posts, and then I will take questions in regards to the comments you make to the points I have made !

But you have to first show me that you understand the points i made and why !

i see, so you don't want to answer the questions, i get it. God be with you.

^i^

 

[Mitspa]

Well, i believe what He told me concerning what happened in Heaven. i will continue to believe the Word of God and what it plainly teaches, that satan existed prior to sin being found in him. That is what the Word of God teaches plainly.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Tell me if you will answer, was he HOLY before sin was found in him?

You see to believe you, i would have to not believe the Word of God. So is it not better for me to believe the Word of God then to believe what men teach? The above verse plainly says that he was perfect UNTIL sin was found in him. Do you teach this, or do you teach something other that what this verse says? Sorry brother, but i believe the Word of God and what it teaches.

^i^

 

[smaller]

Well, i believe what He told me concerning what happened in Heaven. i will continue to believe the Word of God and what it plainly teaches, that satan existed prior to sin being found in him. That is what the Word of God teaches plainly.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Tell me if you will answer, was he HOLY before sin was found in him?

You see to believe you, i would have to not believe the Word of God. So is it not better for me to believe the Word of God then to believe what men teach? The above verse plainly says that he was perfect UNTIL sin was found in him. Do you teach this, or do you teach something other that what this verse says? Sorry brother, but i believe the Word of God and what it teaches.

^i^

Iniquity hid is iniquity regardless.

There is not a single text that presents Satan as once Holy or the 'once supposedly' perfect brother of Jesus.

s

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by smaller,

"There is not a single text that presents Satan as once Holy or the 'once supposedly' perfect brother of Jesus"

You are right S. The idea that Satan was once a "holy angel" who fell is yet another of man's false traditions that makes void the Word of God.


Who does Christ tell us is the original murderer?

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."


So let's just ask the question: "How long has Satan been a murderer?" Did he start out as a good angel who went bad? Well, what did Christ just tell us? What Christ has just told those with eyes to see, is: He ["Your father, the devil"] was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.


According to Genesis, the serpent was the most subtle of all of the 'beasts of the field', which the Lord God HAD MADE:

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE."


Look at these verses:

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things."


God said: "I the Lord do all these things," such as: I CREATE EVIL; and I CREATE DARKNESS.



Look closely at these verses:

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the CROOKED SERPENT.

Isaiah 27:1 "In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that CROOKED SERPENT; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

The 'crooked serpent' is Satan. Look at these verses in Revelation:

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Revelation 12:9 And the great DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."


The great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan. The serpent and the dragon have everything to do with he who is Satan.


God tells us plainly that it was His hand which formed all things including that CROOKED SERPENT. But just in case someone still thinks that Satan was first formed as a good spirit who has gone bad, we have yet another scriptural witness to the contrary for all who have been given eyes to see:

Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I HAVE CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY."

And who is it that has come to destroy?

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING."

When is 'from the beginning?'


Here is another revealing passage:

Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord has made ALL for Himself,
Yes, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of doom."


Who has made THE WICKED?


There is no scripture that shows Satan fell because of sin. There is scripture that shows he was cast down from heaven (Revelation 12:9) but that is because God forced him out, he didn't "fall from grace". Satan was 'evil from the beginning' (John 8:44). He was evil from his creation; there was nothing good in him and no truth in him. That is how God made him, and He made him that way for a purpose:

Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord has made ALL for Himself,
Yes, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of doom."





**On a side note (I apologize for digressing here), most of Christendom thinks that Lucifer is Satan. This teaching comes out of Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. But this is yet another false tradition that deceives the people, and it is all due to a serious translation error in the King James:


"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the Morning!"(KJV)



The KJV here is an erroneous translation. The proper translation is:

"What a fall from heaven on high O Shining star of the dawn!" (Moffat)

"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of the dawn!" (Rotherham)

"How are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"(Amplified Bible)

(almost ALL translations translate this verse correctly)


The correct translation NEVER uses the word "Lucifer" but goes directly to the Hebrew and uses a transliteration of the word Shining star, Shining One, Light-bearer/day star.

Peter calls Jesus the daystar in 2 Peter 1:19 and how He is to arise in our hearts. The Greek word is "phosphoros" and is translated as light-bearing or morning star. Our English word from the Greek is phosphorus. Phosphorus gives off its own light - hence: light-bearer.

Why would Peter, an inspired writer under the direction of the Holy Spirit, compare Jesus as the day star with Lucifer (as the KJV calls it) if Lucifer is the devil or Satan? There surely is a mistake here if it were so. But Peter does NOT draw that comparison; it is the erroneous translation of the King James that infers such. But this is veering off topic a bit, and for another time and place.

 

[smaller]

The KJV here is an erroneous translation. The proper translation is:

"What a fall from heaven on high O Shining star of the dawn!" (Moffat)

"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of the dawn!" (Rotherham)

"How are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"(Amplified Bible)

(almost ALL translations translate this verse correctly)


The correct translation NEVER uses the word "Lucifer" but goes directly to the Hebrew and uses a transliteration of the word Shining star, Shining One, Light-bearer/day star.

Peter calls Jesus the daystar in 2 Peter 1:19 and how He is to arise in our hearts. The Greek word is "phosphoros" and is translated as light-bearing or morning star. Our English word from the Greek is phosphorus. Phosphorus gives off its own light - hence: light-bearer.

Why would Peter, an inspired writer under the direction of the Holy Spirit, compare Jesus as the day star with Lucifer (as the KJV calls it) if Lucifer is the devil or Satan? There surely is a mistake here if it were so. But Peter does NOT draw that comparison; it is the erroneous translation of the King James that infers such. But this is veering off topic a bit, and for another time and place.

Yeah, you hit all the highlights O, many of which were put forth prior herein.. And added many other fine observations confirming the matters.

As to the latter, it may well be. We do know that:

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

and in another simile of Satan:

Job 41:18
By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.

s

 

[Mitspa]

2Co 11:14



And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Not sure of the points being made on the issue of who "lucifer" is, Clearly (Isa 45) is satan.

The Word "lucifer" means "light bearer", or "one who brings light"

Lucifer
´si-fẽr, lōō´si-fẽr: The morning star, an epithet of the planet Venus.

This could be why they used the term?

II. The Worship of the Heavenly Bodies: The Form of Idolatry to Which the Israelites were Most Prone
1. Chiun, Certainly the Planet Saturn
2. Saturn or Moloch Worship
3. Mazzaloth, or Planet Worship
4. Gadh and Meni or Star Worship
5. Lucifer, the Shining Star

 

[savedbygrace57]

i see, so you don't want to answer the questions, i get it. God be with you.

^i^

Then deal with the comments of those posts, and then I will take questions in regards to the comments you make to the points I have made !

But you have to first show me that you understand the points i made and why !

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Mitspa,

Not sure of the points being made on the issue of who "lucifer" is, Clearly (Isa 45) is satan.

Nothing could be further from the truth (well, other than the other 200 million false doctrines of Christianity that darken the light of truth - see Revelation 9:16)

The traditions of MAN say that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But according to John, Satan's "beginning" was precisely the opposite of what the 'doctrines of men' claim:

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."

The Devil, according to 1 John 3:8 WAS A SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING! From his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL. He was a 'murderer from the beginning':

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."



There is only one place the word Lucifer appears in Scripture, and that is in Isaiah 14, and it is a translation error. What is the Hebrew word found in the manuscripts that the translators turned into the Latin word 'Lucifer?' The Strong's Concordance gives Lucifer AS a definition before it even goes to the Dictionary to define the meaning. Here is what you will find:

• Lucifer (lu’sif-ur) {1} Title applied to king of Babylon.

Clearly the editor of Strong's Concordance realized that this word is to be applied to the "king of Babylon," and NOT TO SATAN THE DEVIL!


We are told that the word in question is Strong’s #1966 which is:

• heylel, from #1984 [halal] (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--Lucifer.

Lucifer is the Latin Vulgate translation of the word "xosphoruos" in the Septuagint, which is a Greek version of the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12, which the King James translators then translated over into the English as "Lucifer."

The Latin and the Greek, as well as the form of the Hebrew word in verse 12 mean "bright shiner" or "shining one." "Lucifer" is not a Hebrew word, nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word. Lucifer is Latin, and is related to a group of Latin derived English words including lucid, luciferin and luciferose, all of which suggest brightness or shining.


What a web of deceit is woven in this "light-bringing-brightness-morning-star-Lucifer" theory. This word "Lucifer" appears no other place in Scripture. In fact, the word does not belong there at all. It is an error, and a serious one. Was Satan ever spoken of as a "light-bringing perfect archangel"? NO. What saith the Scriptures?

2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is TRANSFORMED into an angel of light."

Satan is NOT an angel of light, neither has he ever been! He was A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, remember? It is the "false apostles, DECEITFUL workers" (2 Corinthians 11:13) that DECEIVE people into believing lies. Satan 'appears' as an angel of light to the world; he is 'transformed' into an angel of light, but it is an illusion, it is not true, it is a deception!


These passages in Isaiah 14 refer to none other than Babylon - NOT Satan:

"How has thou (Babylon—see context of chapter) fallen from heaven, O Shining One (O howl :eyebrow)—Son of the Dawn! (Babylon conspicuous as Venus). Hewn down to the earth, O crusher of nations."

The reference in Isaiah 14 is to Babylon and none other. It was Babylon which was exalted to heaven (as conspicuous as Venus, the brightest star of the morning) in her wealth, power, and glory. Yet God says it is brought down to the earth, the one who was a "crusher of nations."


Look closely at this passage:

Isaiah 14:13-14 "For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation [appointment] in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"

This language should sound very familiar considering it is a continuation of Babylon, the same system that started at Babel, where they first thought to build "a tower whose top may reach unto heaven" (Genesis 11:4).


John said that the Devil (Satan) was A SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING; and Jesus said Satan was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, not a fictitious 'holy angel' who fell from heaven. Do you believe Jesus, or not?

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Devil, according to I
John 3:8WAS A SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING! From his very
beginning SATAN WAS EVIL. He was a 'murderer from the
beginning':

Good point. And God Created him that way for His Redemptive Purpose in Christ !

 

[Mitspa]

Nothing could be further from the truth (well, other than the other 200 million false doctrines of Christianity that darken the light of truth - see Revelation 9:16)

The traditions of MAN say that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But according to John, Satan's "beginning" was precisely the opposite of what the 'doctrines of men' claim:

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."

The Devil, according to 1 John 3:8 WAS A SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING! From his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL. He was a 'murderer from the beginning':

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."



There is only one place the word Lucifer appears in Scripture, and that is in Isaiah 14, and it is a translation error. What is the Hebrew word found in the manuscripts that the translators turned into the Latin word 'Lucifer?' The Strong's Concordance gives Lucifer AS a definition before it even goes to the Dictionary to define the meaning. Here is what you will find:

• Lucifer (lu’sif-ur) {1} Title applied to king of Babylon.

Clearly the editor of Strong's Concordance realized that this word is to be applied to the "king of Babylon," and NOT TO SATAN THE DEVIL!


We are told that the word in question is Strong’s #1966 which is:

• heylel, from #1984 [halal] (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--Lucifer.

Lucifer is the Latin Vulgate translation of the word "xosphoruos" in the Septuagint, which is a Greek version of the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12, which the King James translators then translated over into the English as "Lucifer."

The Latin and the Greek, as well as the form of the Hebrew word in verse 12 mean "bright shiner" or "shining one." "Lucifer" is not a Hebrew word, nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word. Lucifer is Latin, and is related to a group of Latin derived English words including lucid, luciferin and luciferose, all of which suggest brightness or shining.


What a web of deceit is woven in this "light-bringing-brightness-morning-star-Lucifer" theory. This word "Lucifer" appears no other place in Scripture. In fact, the word does not belong there at all. It is an error, and a serious one. Was Satan ever spoken of as a "light-bringing perfect archangel"? NO. What saith the Scriptures?

2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is TRANSFORMED into an angel of light."

Satan is NOT an angel of light, neither has he ever been! He was A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, remember? It is the "false apostles, DECEITFUL workers" (2 Corinthians 11:13) that DECEIVE people into believing lies. Satan 'appears' as an angel of light to the world; he is 'transformed' into an angel of light, but it is an illusion, it is not true, it is a deception!


These passages in Isaiah 14 refer to none other than Babylon - NOT Satan:

"How has thou (Babylon—see context of chapter) fallen from heaven, O Shining One (O howl :eyebrow)—Son of the Dawn! (Babylon conspicuous as Venus). Hewn down to the earth, O crusher of nations."

The reference in Isaiah 14 is to Babylon and none other. It was Babylon which was exalted to heaven (as conspicuous as Venus, the brightest star of the morning) in her wealth, power, and glory. Yet God says it is brought down to the earth, the one who was a "crusher of nations."


Look closely at this passage:

Isaiah 14:13-14 "For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation [appointment] in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"

This language should sound very familiar considering it is a continuation of Babylon, the same system that started at Babel, where they first thought to build "a tower whose top may reach unto heaven" (Genesis 11:4).


John said that the Devil (Satan) was A SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING; and Jesus said Satan was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, not a fictitious 'holy angel' who fell from heaven. Do you believe Jesus, or not?

Dont use that "do you believe Jesus or not stuff on me"
The fact that "Angels fell" is clear in scripture, when they fell is not clear. the "beginning" is up for debate amonst honest brethren. I have read your post and you make good points. I may decide to look into the issue myself? I will leave the discussion with this SURE verse from James.


Jas 1:13

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 

[wayseer]

Do you believe Jesus, or not?

Loaded question.

But it would appear that those who asked loaded question would also claim they have all the answers.

Care to have a crack at your own question?

Careful - herein lie dragons.

 

[smaller]

Dont use that "do you believe Jesus or not stuff on me"
The fact that "Angels fell" is clear in scripture, when they fell is not clear. the "beginning" is up for debate amonst honest brethren. I have read your post and you make good points. I may decide to look into the issue myself? I will leave the discussion with this SURE verse from James.

The term 'angel' in some minds and because of the typical uses automatically means to them, Holy.

The term itself means only 'messenger.'

There are 'good' messengers and 'bad' ones in the text.

The term 'men' is similar and is also applied to 'bad angels' 'good angels' and even God Himself, the Image of same. It is not an automatic 'sex type' term.

Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Scriptures show otherwise on this matter as well:

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham

Same can be shown with many other scriptures. God for example is not the Author of confusion, yet God confused the language of the people at the tower of Babel.

Harmony is available on these matters and the conflicting statements are purposefully set forth in the text in order to draw attention OR to lock people into to one sided views.

s

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by wayseer,

Originally Posted By Osgiliath,

Do you believe Jesus, or not?

Care to have a crack at your own question?

OK.

• Question: Do I believe Jesus when He says: John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."?
  
  
  Answer: Yes, I do.
  
  
  
  
• Question: Do I believe John when He says: 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."?
  
  
  Answer: Yes, I do.
  
  
  
  
• Question: Do I NOT believe Jesus when He says the Devil 'was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING'................... but do I instead believe MAN who says: the Devil was NOT a 'murderer from the beginning' and the Devil did NOT 'sinneth from the beginning', but instead he was a sinless, holy angel in the beginning?
  
  
  Answer: No, I do not.