Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

[Randy]

The answer to the question is absolutely Yes ! All things are made or created for God's good pleasure Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If we believe in the True and Living God, then we ought know He is the First Cause of all causes.

He created the devil for His Pleasure and ordained his activities, He created Adam for His pleasure and ordained his activities and the subsequent consequences.

From the time God said this Gen 1:1-3

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

It put into effect this Eph 1:11


In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

If we do not believe this, rest in this, and we do debate it, reject it, we are no better off than an athiest ! We are as David wrote Ps 14:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

No, It is also written :"When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.†For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."


God sows the good seed. His enemies sow the weeds.

 

[smaller]

No, It is also written :"When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."


God sows the good seed. His enemies sow the weeds.

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Most believers have a hard time harmonizing these kinds of conflicted statements.

Some will point to one text. Some the other. Obviously without some basis to harmonize this matter there will be confusions and divisions.

There are many such surface conflicts that are intentionally and Divinely placed in the text.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

No, It is also written :"When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.†For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."


God sows the good seed. His enemies sow the weeds.

Rabbit trail. Please expalin to me what points I made in the OP with the scripture, then show me if you can how they are not correctly understood by me in making my point !

 

[Randy]

Rabbit trail. Please expalin to me what points I made in the OP with the scripture, then show me if you can how they are not correctly understood by me in making my point !

No thanks. I answered you question. Is God the cause of sin and evil in the world? NO

Though I don't understand your preaching such a topic with a "absolutely yes" answer.

So if you have children and you teach them to choose the right and reject the wrong you are responsible for their wrong choices? living beings have freewill

God doesn't hold me accountable for what others do and even though He is my Judge I wouldn't hold Him responsible for what others do. Scripture shows a just, loving, compassionate faithful HOLY HOLY HOLY Heavenly Father.

Randy

 

[smaller]

No thanks. I answered you question. Is God the cause of sin and evil in the world? NO

Though I don't understand your preaching such a topic with a "absolutely yes" answer.

So if you have children and you teach them to choose the right and reject the wrong you are responsible for their wrong choices? living beings have freewill

God doesn't hold me accountable for what others do and even though He is my Judge I wouldn't hold Him responsible for what others do. Scripture shows a just, loving, compassionate faithful HOLY HOLY HOLY Heavenly Father.

Randy

Some determinists see that God is vastly Greater than the sum of all evil.

So, does His creation of evil pose a problem to determinism?

No.

Some determinists know that it is He that is able to sum up all evil efforts and to make all of those works and ways as if they never existed. And God in Christ has already preambled that matter in not counting our sins against us.

The elimination of all evil remains on the table of Gods Agenda. But it was God who created that power to begin with to serve His Purposes in showing His Own Superiority over all of it. Therefore the power of evil will serve Him and will succumb to Him.

That is determinism.

Many 'freewill' advocates believe that if God created evil that makes Him evil. This is not the case. God can create anything and not be equated to any thing He creates by the simple virtue of His Superiority of Being.

s

 

[Randy]

randy



Ok, the feeling is mutual !

Thats good as then when someone asked you what you did today you don't have to state "I was arguing that God was the cause of sin and evil"

R.

 

[DiscipleDave]

The answer to the question is absolutely Yes ! All things are made or created for God's good pleasure Rev 4:11

Greetings,
God did create all things that are created. But God never created sin. sin was born in an Angel called Lucifer, the moment he desired to have what God had, is when sin was born in Lucifer. God created Lucifer perfect in every way as the Scriptures says he was, but Lucifer created sin within himself, he is the Father of it, the creator of it.

Now granted God uses what Lucifer created to His own benefit, by testing all the subjects of Heaven.

God does use evil to serve His purpose, for example it was God who allowed satan in the Garden of Eden to begin with, what? God could not prevent him from entering, or He did not know he was there? God knew, and He allowed him there to tempt Eve. satan can only do what God allows him to do. If God wanted too, He could wipe out evil on this Earth right now, He could bind up satan and his cohorts, and there would be no more evil at all on the Earth, but He chooses to keep them here because they are serving His purpose by doing so. Namely because of satan we are able to be tested.

^i^

 

[Grazer]

Yes He did, the True God did, for an Redemptive Purpose. God Created all things for an Redemptive Purpose in Christ that required sin !

Huh?? God created sin so he would have something to redeem us from?

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[smaller]

Huh?? God created sin so he would have something to redeem us from?

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

s

 

[Grazer]

Paul in the very same book talking about how sin came into this world through one man and Genesis tells us that that man disobeyed God. What you're saying is that it wasn't Adams fault at all.

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[smaller]

Paul in the very same book talking about how sin came into this world through one man and Genesis tells us that that man disobeyed God. What you're saying is that it wasn't Adams fault at all.

Not everyone will fall into the funnel of blaming Adam. That is the common pit of understanding.

God had every intention of making Adam a 'natural man.' Adam was Gods son, bound into a compilation of wet dust where God had ZERO intention to leave Adam permanently and forever. There was a first Adam and a last Adam. The natural to spiritual order was always Gods Plan.

Here is how God made Adam conditionally speaking and how every person who has existed since except for God Himself in Flesh.

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The last Adam was no longer bound up in the above, but rejoined with His Father.

This present earth is Gods Sowing Field. The factual conditions of planting being in corruption, weakness, dishonor and a natural body.

And yes, all of that is of His Making and Design.

s

 

[Grazer]

The issue with that though is you're effectively saying;

God created a virus then unleashed it on the human population then came along saying "I have the cure" Being grateful to him is very difficult when he caused the problem in the first place. He wants us to worship him as saviour when all he did was clean up his mess. There's also the ego angle where God wants us to worship him so he created a problem and the solution to do that. Either way, calls into serious question the nature of grace.

I'm not sure I buy the Adam being the cause of sin entering the world but it makes more sense of the gospel than your explanation.

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[savedbygrace57]

grazer

Huh?? God created sin so he would have something to redeem us from?

Yes, God Created this World for a Redemptive from sin purpose centerd in Christ Jesus. God's number one purpose for Creating this World was for this here which Jesus uttered Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Do you know what Christ is saying here ? What He means ?

 

[smaller]

The issue with that though is you're effectively saying;

God created a virus then unleashed it on the human population then came along saying "I have the cure"

I certainly don't care how another person might reflect on these matters or to spin them. There are many things and matters to reflect on. So where you may reflect a virus, I might see the fact that God created, and that anything He created would by virtue of being less than Himself be less than Perfect. This does not pose any issues to me. Such 'lesser' states no matter what they are are the differences between Creator and created.

From a creationist perspective I can not logically withdraw Gods Hand from any thing that is created. Various lesser states or lesser powers or lesser things would not pose any threat to the main Character.

Being grateful to him is very difficult when he caused the problem in the first place.

If the Creator created us as Perfect He would have merely recreated Himself. That might appear to have not served much purpose.

If God created evil and by His Power made, even forced good come about regardless this would not pose any issues to me. I might equate evil to manure in a garden. If that caused other things to grow then the manure served the gardeners purposes.

He wants us to worship him as saviour when all he did was clean up his mess.

Your perception is that there is a mess. Others might see that there is purpose in everything.

If the exposure to disobedience for example brings us to appreciate, experience first hand and share in Divine Mercy I would again have no issues with the creation and deployment of disobedience. The disobedience will be discarded upon completion of Divine Intent and there would be benefit from the experience.

It might be no joy to us as parents to deliver discipline to our children, but we know that it is ultimately for their benefits.

There's also the ego angle where God wants us to worship him so he created a problem and the solution to do that. Either way, calls into serious question the nature of grace.

And again one might view the matters as one of participation. Can't really see where God Himself is in need of anything, but elected to have some share in Divine worthy and eternal matters. That's His Choice to set up, dispense and make happen.

I'm not sure I buy the Adam being the cause of sin entering the world but it makes more sense of the gospel than your explanation.

I have no uses in isolating God from any matter within His creation. He is not in need of my excuses.

s

 

[Grazer]

You don't care yet address it anyway? Moving on

We're not perfect beings, right from the beginning we've been disobeying God, getting ourselves into one mess after another. Using a situation to your advantage and deliberately causing it in the first place are 2 different things. Consequences are different to fault.

God is disciplining us when he set it up so that we would fail. That's not discipline, that's sadism. Plus free will is out the window.

Now you can accuse me of twisting points but I'm just taking your logic to its natural conclusion.

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[smaller]

You don't care yet address it anyway? Moving on

Address what?

We're not perfect beings, right from the beginning we've been disobeying God, getting ourselves into one mess after another. Using a situation to your advantage and deliberately causing it in the first place are 2 different things. Consequences are different to fault.

As stated prior, being created in and of itself brings an automatic position of being lesser than the Creator. Slice it down from there anyway you please. Obviously there will be evil on that scale.

God is disciplining us when he set it up so that we would fail.

You would have preferred to have been made God yourself from the git go? We probably don't have much to say about that matter anymore than a child elects himself to be born.

That's not discipline, that's sadism. Plus free will is out the window.

I understand that it is the desire of 'freewill' to justify it's own actions. Fact is however that no such lesser will is capable of turning itself into Gods Perfect Will.

Good luck though.

Now you can accuse me of twisting points but I'm just taking your logic to its natural conclusion.

I made some fairly simple observations. And I also understand they won't compute to those locked into the mindset that somehow their imperfect and supposed 'free' wills are going to avoid confrontation with our present 'imposed' realities.

None of us avoid the fact that we are sown in weakness, dishonor, corruption and in natural bodies with predominantly natural thinking minds. Freewill doesn't escape reality by it's 'own' actions.

s

 

[Grazer]

I never said our freewill is on par with Gods, that's your interpretation of what I said.

If God created us with evil in us then God has evil in him, we were created in his image. According to Genesis, we didn't know about evil until we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (I guess technically we didn't know of good either) He made us with free will to choose whether to obey God which is all we knew. This raises the question of whether God has free will himself except to do evil or whether he can do evil. He certainly has knowledge of evil as Genesis 3: 21 says;

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.â€

I just don't see how God caused suffering to come into this world then came into it to rescue us from it. It makes absolutely no sense if he's rescuing us from something he himself causes - suffering. We are not perfect beings, God is. The only way your stance can make any sense is if being perfect includes being perfectly evil too.

 

[smaller]

I never said our freewill is on par with Gods, that's your interpretation of what I said.

Yeah, limited free by comparison is how free?

If God created us with evil in us then God has evil in him,

Theology 101. God can create any 'thing' and not be 'the same' as what was created.

Were the standard of measure that God Himself became the same as any thing created God would become the same as the lowest denominator in that equation.'

Doesn't compute. Sorry.

we were created in his image. According to Genesis, we didn't know about evil until we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (I guess technically we didn't know of good either)

We already know the factual conditions of Adam's situation from Paul as previously noted in detail. Some have their own fancifully inserted alternatives of the condition of Adam but are not in line with Paul's depictions whatsoever.

He made us with free will to choose whether to obey God which is all we knew.

And I'd only consider that to be juvenile hype put out by some camps. It's much more interesting than just that.

As it pertains to this thread we know from scriptures that God created all things inclusive of powers, thrones, dominions, visible things, invisible things. And that all things were created for His Pleasure.

Some will see those statements as encompassing any form of 'will' distributed to mankind, so inevitably those wills also connect back to the Creator of same.

It is quite impossible other than by providing 'excuses' for God to 'exempt' evil from the encompassing statements of 'all things.' Though many try.

This raises the question of whether God has free will himself except to do evil or whether he can do evil. He certainly has knowledge of evil as Genesis 3: 21 says;

There is also no doubt whatsoever about Gods practice of retributive evil. Any casual glance at the Old Testament or the New will find many examples of God Himself rendering evil in return for evil done.

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

I just don't see how God caused suffering to come into this world then came into it to rescue us from it.

And some will see the obvious facts of Adam and of us all in the factual statements of Adam's planting in weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body. And various forms of reasonings attached to same.

It makes absolutely no sense if he's rescuing us from something he himself causes - suffering.

Long suffering is a Divine Characteristic of Love of which God also partook of Himself. No sense being a baby about it when it's a fact.

We are not perfect beings, God is. The only way your stance can make any sense is if being perfect includes being perfectly evil too.

Again, the instant most forms of freewillers encounter the very solid fact that God created all things inclusive of evil they automatically kick in with 'God must then be evil.'

The Creator can create anything and remain entirely Superior to the sum of all things and not be 'the same as' anything in that creation.

The notion that these somehow link is nonsense as well. There is no 'thing' within the creation that will equate to The Creator.

s

 

[DiscipleDave]

Yes He did, the True God did, for an Redemptive Purpose. God Created all things for an Redemptive Purpose in Christ that required sin !

You do understand that before the Earth was created or humans created that there was a Kingdom of Heaven? Creating Earth and the humans was not the beginning of time itself. Prior to the Earth being created there was Heaven, a Kingdom, the Universe. There was no law in Heaven, because there was no sin. If God made a decree, it would simply be done, the inhabitants of Heaven would never refuse God anything, that was unheard of. There was no law in Heaven. There was no law "Thou shalt not steal" for stealing was unheard of, and never even thought of in Heaven, if you wanted something, you merely created it, you would not steal it. In Heaven there was no law, therefore no sin. However there was one thing that was accepted, and known. That you could not have the Throne of God for yourself. Lucifer desired to have the only thing he could not have in Heaven, and that was the Throne of God, he desired to be worshiped, instead of the one worshiping.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer, according to Scriptures was created perfect (no defects, no problems, no errors), where was SIN found? According to Scriptures it was found in Lucifer. It does not say God created sin in Lucifer, that is what man teaches when they say God created sin. Scriptures do not lie, they teach that sin was found in Lucifer, who was created perfect even as all the other inhabitants of Heaven. But selfishness was born in Lucifer, SIN came from Lucifer. God did not create sin, it was created by and in Lucifer, the father of sin, the creator of sin.

So then in conclusion, should i believe the Word of God which teaches that sin was found in Lucifer, or believe man which teaches God created sin? For me that is easy, i will choose to believe the Word of God over what men teach.

^i^

 

[Grazer]

ddave



I understand that this World was Created for a Redemptive from sin Purpose through Jesus Christ and so God required sin to come into it for His Purpose !

This world was created for us and for God. Yes we need redeeming but sin was never part of the original plan, there is nothing in the Genesis account that says that.

There's an interesting passage in Genesis which says;

Genesis 1:28 NIV

"God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.""

We are to subdue it and I've read some theologians suggest that we are commanded to do this because things have already started to go wrong. Michael Lloyd in a talk suggested it was to do with Lucifers rebellion and we were to correct it but we ended up rebelling too.

There's also the given reason for the flood;

Genesis 6:5-6 NIV

"The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

Why would he be troubled if sin and suffering were part of the original plan?

There is nothing in the original text to suggest God planned sin and suffering. He probably knew they were coming and he knew he would have to take pretty drastic action to allow us to be reconciled to him. But he was willing to accept the price and its a far cry from saying he planned it from the beginning.

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