Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

[savedbygrace57]

grazer

This world was created for us and for God.

This World was Created for a Redemptive from sin Purpose through Jesus Christ and so God required sin to come into it for His Purpose !

Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[Grazer]

grazer



This World was Created for a Redemptive from sin Purpose through Jesus Christ and so God required sin to come into it for His Purpose !

Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Saying something over and over, is not going to make it true. Quoting a single verse out of context is not going to work either. Where does that include sin? The verse immediately prior to that is "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation" That would be mean Jesus had sin in him. Please show where that is stated in the Bible.

 

[savedbygrace57]

grazer

Saying something over and over, is not going to make it true.

It certainly is not going to make it untrue. Whether you believe it or not, this World Was Created for Jesus Christ and His Redemptive Purpose from sin Col 1:14-16

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

That Redemptive Purpose included forgiveness of sins !

 

[DiscipleDave]

ddave



I understand that this World was Created for a Redemptive from sin Purpose through Jesus Christ and so God required sin to come into it for His Purpose !

Greetings,
i do understand what you are talking about, and to some degree you are absolutely correct. Because of sin, the world was indeed Created for a Redemptive type testing, through Jesus Christ, That is True, and Yes also because of sin, God is able to test us by and through it, this is all True. But God is not the creator of sin, He did not start it, nor create it.

Please, please read my article "The Meaning of Life" which explains what i am failing to reveal to you concerning this topic on these posts. i would be much interested to here others peoples opinions on the article "The Meaning of Life". So far everyone that has physically read the rough draft of it, has liked it tremendously, and a couple of preachers have even said "I have never thought of it, in that way before, very interesting"

^i^

 

[smaller]

Greetings,
i do understand what you are talking about, and to some degree you are absolutely correct. Because of sin, the world was indeed Created for a Redemptive type testing, through Jesus Christ, That is True, and Yes also because of sin, God is able to test us by and through it, this is all True. But God is not the creator of sin, He did not start it, nor create it.

Please, please read my article "The Meaning of Life" which explains what i am failing to reveal to you concerning this topic on these posts. i would be much interested to here others peoples opinions on the article "The Meaning of Life". So far everyone that has physically read the rough draft of it, has liked it tremendously, and a couple of preachers have even said "I have never thought of it, in that way before, very interesting"

^i^

A lot of fairytale notions in the link. And some things that are not true whatsoever.

As it pertained to Satan for example a LOT of people read that he was created 'perfect' and they don't grasp the connection in that kind of 'perfect' being 'in all his ways.'

A perfect devil for example would be perfect in all his demonic ways. Is that perfect? Depends on how you read the term perfect. Perfect doesn't automatically equate in his case to a once Holy angel gone sour, but a devil from the beginning. Satan was perfect for the reasons God created same. To be a perfect DEVIL. There isn't a single instance where Satan or his demons are stated as being HOLY.

That's just one example. And Jesus bears this same matter out about Satan, the devil in John 8:44 showing that the devil was both a liar and a murderer 'from the beginning' with 'no truth' in him.

Yep. Exactly PERFECT in those, his ways.

Some simplistic questions as it pertains to evil/the devil is WHY?

If, by exposure to evil, it prompts His children to 'personally' understand, first hand, the very real need and value of experienced Divine Mercy and we through that experience become participants via that negative exposure, then God is certainly justified in deployment. Did that make evil GOOD then? Assuredly NOT. But God in that case makes GOOD come from the contrast experience with EVIL.

If God were visible to all of us physically we would have no use for 'faith' in His Limitless Spirit. Another example.

If one observes 'the fruit' that God is engaged in reaping from this present world, they will also understand the temporary MANURE in a legitimate light. And will find God quite marvelous in the deployments.

s

 

[Deborah13]

rain



Yes He did. If He did'nt why did eve yield to the lust of the flesh ?

DON'T ever take candy from a stranger!!!

Mom catches kid taking a very tempting candy from a stranger.

Innocent of any real knowledge of the danger. Didn't believe what Dad told her.
I want that!!!, she thought. Forbidden Fruit

 

[savedbygrace57]

ddave

Greetings,
i do understand what you are talking about

Apparently you do not !

Because of sin, the world was indeed Created for a Redemptive type testing,
through Jesus Christ,

The World was Created for Jesus Christ,to Redeem it from sin, not for no redemptive testing. Thats not in the Bible !

Col 1:14-16

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[Grazer]

The redemptive purpose includes forgiveness of sin yes. That is why Jesus came to this earth. Those passages say nothing about sin and suffering being part of Gods original plan so that Jesus has a purpose though. You're effectively saying that Jesus existed purely to redeem sin but no beings like like that existed so God created some so Jesus would have something to do.

You still have the passages in Genesis re: flood I quoted earlier to address. Why would God be troubled by something he planned to happen?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[DiscipleDave]

A lot of fairytale notions in the link. And some things that are not true whatsoever.

Thank God everyone is entitled to their opinions:yes

As it pertained to Satan for example a LOT of people read that he was created 'perfect' and they don't grasp the connection in that kind of 'perfect' being 'in all his ways.'

A lot of people say he was created perfect because that is what the Word of God plainly says and teaches, do you teach otherwise? Do you teach contrary to Scriptures?:eeeekkk Surely you do not do this wicked thing.

Eze28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

he was made perfect in all his ways, from the time he was created until sin was found in him. So then before sin was found in him, he had no sin prior to that point yes? he was perfect, righteous, good, Godly, served God, worshiped God, had no sin, did no wrong, did not wickedness, did no evil, he was perfect UNTIL he sinned, which was found in him. But before sin was found in him, he was PERFECT even as all the other inhabitants in Heaven were perfect, just like Jesus Christ was PERFECT.

A perfect devil for example would be perfect in all his demonic ways. Is that perfect? Depends on how you read the term perfect. Perfect doesn't automatically equate in his case to a once Holy angel gone sour, but a devil from the beginning. Satan was perfect for the reasons God created same. To be a perfect DEVIL. There isn't a single instance where Satan or his demons are stated as being HOLY.

Sorry but yeah there is, but you seem to not want to see it. consider the verse again:

Eze28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

So then prior to sin being found in Lucifer, what was he? prior to the point of sin being created in Lucifer, how was he any different than any other Angel in Heaven. Try to understand, before lucifer had sin born in him, the quadtrillion Billion years before that, he had no sin in him, he was just like all the other inhabitant of Heaven for quintillion, billion, phillion, tyrillion years before the point sin was found in him. God did not create lucifer with sin already in him, as in created the devil, created a wicked person. That is not what Scriptures teach, nor is it the Truth. God created Lucifer just like all the other Angels, we know this because that is what Scriptures teach, that he was created perfect in ALL his ways, all of them (NO SIN) UNTIL sin was found in him, because prior to that point he was just like all the other Angels.

That's just one example. And Jesus bears this same matter out about Satan, the devil in John 8:44 showing that the devil was both a liar and a murderer 'from the beginning' with 'no truth' in him.

Yep. Exactly PERFECT in those, his ways.

Some simplistic questions as it pertains to evil/the devil is WHY?

Yes that is True, however you say that "Beginning" is the beginning of EVERYTHING Angels included. When the "Beginning" that Jesus was referring to was the moment Lucifer started sin, HE was not talking about prior to Lucifer starting sin.

Tell me, Why was lucifer kicked out of Heaven, and cast to the Earth? Because he sinned, he sinned, God did make him sin, God did not create him to sin. God is all about LOVE, not about war and fighting and sin and hate. If i am not mistaken you seem to be teaching that God created a being to be evil. That God created a being that would cause strife, war, hatred, sin in Heaven. A loving God would never ever create something or someone who was contrary to the very thing that He is. God created Lucifer PERFECT, lucifer created sin within himself, he is the father of it, he started it, and there was war in Heaven because of it. this was never, ever God plan, that there would be war in Heaven, that Angels would be cast out of Heaven. It hurt God a great deal that lucifer was able to convince others to go along with his rebellious plan.

If, by exposure to evil, it prompts His children to 'personally' understand, first hand, the very real need and value of experienced Divine Mercy and we through that experience become participants via that negative exposure, then God is certainly justified in deployment. Did that make evil GOOD then? Assuredly NOT. But God in that case makes GOOD come from the contrast experience with EVIL.

you do not yet understand, prior to sin. There was absolutely no need for God to show His Mercy, it was already a given, it was already well known how loving, merciful, and gracious God is. They all seen it first hand, being with Him in Heaven. He did not need to create the devil to reveal that He was merciful, when that was already known. they have been worshiping God for eons times eons before sin was ever in Heaven. Are you suggesting that God, desiring to show how Merciful He is, created the devil, so there can be WAR in Heaven, hatred, evil, wickedness, disobedience and unrighteousness, JUST so He can show how Merciful He is? Surely you do not believe this, i mean if you do, that is your right, you can believe as you will, but oh my if you do. Tell me, would it not have been way more Merciful if he would not have ever created the devil in the first place? (if that is what He did, i know differently) He would have prevented WAR in Heaven, no death, no pain, no hatred. Please, please do not believe things which are contrary to Scriptures.

God would never create a being to try to overtake His Throne. God created all beings PERFECT, and yes all of them had free will. lucifer freely chose to rebel against God, by trying to take His Throne, he also convinced 1/3 of the Angels in heaven to rebel with him. THAT is not what God wanted to happen in Heaven, it was never suppose to have happened in Heaven, it all started when sin was found in lucifer.

Hope this has helped in some way:D

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

ddave



Apparently you do not !



The World was Created for Jesus Christ,to Redeem it from sin, not for no redemptive testing. Thats not in the Bible !

Col 1:14-16

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Greetings,
i have a couple of questions for you to answer, if you will do so for me
Do you believe what Scripture plainly say and teach? i'm sure you answered yes to that question. The following is some verses i would like you to read, then i have a question concerning those verses.

Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Answer me this, why would the LORD say unto Abraham "NOW I KNOW", If He was not testing Abraham to SEE what he would do, when asked to give up his son? Why would the Lord have a need to test him, if the Lord already knew what the test results would be? If the Lord already knew what he would do, then there would have been no need to actually test him.

we are all here to be Tested, to see what we will do, in certain situations, to see how we also will respond. i have a bunch more Scriptural examples of this HERE. please take a look at it, it goes into much more details then what i can post on a message board.

^i^

 

[smaller]

Thank God everyone is entitles to their opinions

I would certainly suppose that God is Great Enough to not have the power of evil exist.

Evil exists by His Desire to have it so or it wouldn't.

A lot of people say he was created perfect because that is what the Word of God plainly says and teaches, do you teach otherwise?

A perfect devil is still a devil.

Do you teach contrary to Scriptures? Surely you do not do this wicked thing.

Jesus told us both about the devil, already cited prior:

John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So, if the devil or a devil says for example, they believe, are they telling the truth?

There is in fact NO TRUTH in him no matter what he speaks.

Eze28:15 Thou wastperfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Please see Jesus' reference above for 'his ways.'

he was made perfect in all his ways,

Uh huh. I'm not one to get caught up by the word perfect as that can factually mean a lot of different things. There can for example be a perfect MANURE pile. Is that then PERFECT? Uh huh, in all it's ways.

from the time he was created until sin was found in him. So then before sin was found in him, he had no sin prior to that point yes? he was perfect,

Only if we discount Jesus' factual statements above. Iniquity in check and iniquity revealed may certainly be a factor though.

As an example believers can be sinners in their minds and hearts and not actually 'perform' any particular external action of sin. Are they still sinners?

YEP! Do they actually have to perform an external action to be a sinner?

NOPE!

righteous, good, Godly, served God, worshipped God, had no sin, did no wrong, did not wickedness, did no evil, he was perfect UNTIL he sinned, which was found in him. But before sin was found in him, he was PERFECT even as all the other inhabitants in Heaven were perfect, just like Jesus Christ was PERFECT.

Boy, that's a pretty big stretch there. Are you a Mormon?

Yes that is True, however you say that "Beginning" is the beginning of EVERYTHING Angels included. When the "Beginning" that Jesus was referring to was the moment Lucifer started sin, HE was not talking about prior to Lucifer starting sin.

Ah, so you mark out 'external sin' as 'the beginning' of Satan, the devil?

The very first account we have of the deceiver in the Garden doesn't appear that he was too 'legal' from the beginning.

If we want to resort to undisclosed fairytales that might have existed prior to Genesis, you might have a point.

The fact is however that the deceiver for all intents and purposes in the text has in fact been a LIAR and a MURDERER with NO TRUTH IN him from the beginning of the Genesis account.

Tell me, Why was lucifer kicked out of Heaven, and cast to the Earth? Because he sinned, he sinned, God did make him sin, God did not create him to sin.

Or the liar and murderer with no truth in him was tolerated there for a time.

The notion that there were a bunch of Holy Angels gone south is a non-existing christian fairy tale.

And even in the New Testament Gospels we find DEMONS stating that Jesus Is Lord and worshipping him.

Are they telling the TRUTH? Will they be REWARDED for that worship and truthtelling?

Uh, no. They are still liars and murderers with no truth in them no matter what they speak.

God is all about LOVE, not about war and fighting and sin and hate. If i am not mistaken you seem to be teaching that God created a being to be evil.

Already cited in this thread, multiple scriptures that state that God has and did in fact create 'all things.'

Now the challenge to those who believe otherwise is to subtract any 'thing' or 'power' in creation and make an exemption that 'created itself.'

At that point you may realize that you are in fact promoting MULTIPLE CREATORS, which is not Christianity, but is in fact POLY THEISM.

Will see what you come up with from there.

Jesus and Satan co-equals? That was pretty funny. Thanks in advance for the chuckle.

s

 

[DiscipleDave]

Re: Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

Thank God everyone is entitles to their opinions

I would certainly suppose that God is Great Enough to not have the power of evil exist.

i agree, He could stop it all right now, but chooses not to, because it serves His purpose. This does not mean He started sin.

Evil exists by His Desire to have it so or it wouldn't.

Agreed, but this has nothing to do with how sin started.

A lot of people say he was created perfect because that is what the Word of God plainly says and teaches, do you teach otherwise?

A perfect devil is still a devil.

Prior to sin being found in lucifer, was he called the devil then? prior to sin being found in lucifer, he was no called the devil. The devil is the name given to him AFTER sin was found in him. God did not create the DEVIL, to be a devil. God created lucifer perfect even as Scriptures says he was, it wasn't until sin was found in him,that he became the devil.

gotta go, will reply more when i am able to do so.

^i^

 

[Grazer]

Smaller

You say that the notion that there were a bunch of Holy Angels gone south is a non-existing christian fairy tale. Who is the devil, where did he come from, who/what was the serpent in the garden of Eden?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[smaller]

i agree, He could stop it all right now, but chooses not to, because it serves His purpose. This does not mean He started sin.

In the studies of theology, theodicy and protology this may be termed omission or commission. By Gods allowance of evil He is implicit by omission, meaning He stands by watching, failing to stop evil, when He has all the ability to stop same, regardless of one's view of timing or creation. No different than you would be if you saw a child being murdered next to you and did nothing.

Agreed, but this has nothing to do with how sin started.

Paul tells us that it was God Himself who 'bound all mankind' to disobedience. Romans 11:32.

Paul also tells us that from the beginning Adam and all mankind are sown in weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body, ALL of the Creators doing. 1 Cor. 15.

Prior to sin being found in lucifer, was he called the devil then? prior to sin being found in lucifer, he was no called the devil. The devil is the name given to him AFTER sin was found in him. God did not create the DEVIL, to be a devil. God created lucifer perfect even as Scriptures says he was, it wasn't until sin was found in him,that he became the devil.

gotta go, will reply more when i am able to do so.

^i^

Then we are forced to eliminate Jesus' plain and open statements about this particular matter in John 8:44 to suit certain fantasies.

And equating Jesus with Satan as you claimed prior would be considered a heresy in most traditional camps. That is why I asked you if you are MORMON? 2nd request. That is what 'they' believe.

Retributive evil done directly by God is also a solid scriptural fact. God Himself has directed and even caused the murder of infants by the score as it pertained to prediluvian inhabitants of the earth and antidiluvian inhabitants of the earth who were the enemies of Israel and even David's infant son, among many others. God even wanted to kill Moses at one point.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive;

s

 

[smaller]

Smaller

You say that the notion that there were a bunch of Holy Angels gone south is a non-existing christian fairy tale. Who is the devil, where did he come from, who/what was the serpent in the garden of Eden?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Most of these matters have been addressed in my posts at length in the last couple of pages of this thread if you want to scroll back and read them.

s

 

[smaller]

Isaiah 54:
16 - And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc

 

[savedbygrace57]

God's Eternal Purpose of Love !

We know that God is the First cause of sin coming into the World, because God is the First cause of making manifest His Love to men, before the sin of Adam there was no evidence of God's Love to man. God giving Adam physical being and all the good physical things for his happiness and contentment in the beginning was not a token of God's Love, for ones material wellbeing has never been a gage for God's Love.

The Greatest Evidence of God's Love is the Giving of His Son' s Life to die for sinners 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

The word manifested phaneroō means:


to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to


Rom 5:8

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The word commendeth here means to demonstrate

Eph 2:4

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

God before all worlds Sovereignly chose within Himself to show His Great Love for men or to demonstrate it by means of an Salvaic or Redemptive Purpose from sin through Jesus Christ Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: For His Purpose

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[savedbygrace57]

God is the First Cause of all Causes !

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Some will object, that all things does not include sin, but that is a mistake because God created adam who was responsible for bringing sin into the World and adam was created for God's pleasure.

So we know that God is the First cause of sin and death entering into His World, His Creation, simply because, He is the First cause of the cause Adam, which therefore makes Him [God], the First cause of the effect that adam caused by his sin.

This is also concluded, if we understand, that if God so purposed it, He could have made adam in such a immutable state, that he could not have fallen or sinned ! Scripture says of God's Ability Rom 14:4

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Now to doubt that is to doubt also that God by His same ability, will make it so that all men in the New Heavens and New Earth will not be able to sin, they will not even have the capacity to sin.

With this understanding, it should be quite clear that God is the First and Primary Cause of sin and Death entering into the World, for a Redemptive Purpose centered in Christ Jesus ! Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[savedbygrace57]

To Highly Exalt Christ !

For God did cause sin to enter into His World through Adam's transgression, because by it, God had purposed to Highly Exalt His Son for His obedience unto death in His defeat of sin by means of His Cross Phil 2:8-11

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Before God ever Created this World, He had purposed to Create it to the End that He would Highly Exalt His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ for His Victorious Death over sin on the Cross.

This World was made for a Redemptive Purpose centered in the person and Work of Jesus Christ, for all thinks were Created for Him Col 1:14-17

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[DiscipleDave]

In the studies of theology, theodicy and protology this may be termed omission or commission. By Gods allowance of evil He is implicit by omission, meaning He stands by watching, failing to stop evil, when He has all the ability to stop same, regardless of one's view of timing or creation. No different than you would be if you saw a child being murdered next to you and did nothing.

we are discussing two entirely different things, i am discussing how sin started, not the effects of it now. God uses whatever means He uses, to test us, sin serves His purpose, this is True, however what i have been discussing is the start of sin, God did not create sin, lucifer did. Now granted once it was created by lucifer. God uses it and creates it as well in order to test humans. please please read my article on "The Meaning of Life" to understand what God has revealed to me concerning this sin issue, and all humans here on Earth to be tested.

Paul tells us that it was God Himself who 'bound all mankind' to disobedience. Romans 11:32.

This is True, speaking of mankind. Again we are talking about two entirely different things. i am talking about before mankind was even thought of, before the Earth was ever created. The Earth and mankind were created after sin was found in Heaven, by and through lucifer, which was also in Heaven.

Paul also tells us that from the beginning Adam and all mankind are sown in weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body, ALL of the Creators doing. 1 Cor. 15.

True, in the beginning of the Earth and mankind that is all true. But there was God prior to Adam being created, there was a Heaven prior to the Earth being thought of by God. Heaven has always been. Heaven was not created just because the Earth was created nor was Heaven created because God created Adam. i am talking about BEFORE Adam, BEFORE Earth. Sin was in Heaven, created by lucifer an inhabitant in Heaven.

Then we are forced to eliminate Jesus' plain and open statements about this particular matter in John 8:44 to suit certain fantasies.

Jesus' plain and open statements were to the created humans on the planet Earth. Do you not know that Jesus existed prior to the Earth being created billions and billions and billions times billions of years. For some reason humans can't grasp that there was a Kingdom of Heaven, prior to the Earth being created. What Jesus said in the Word of God is to humans here on this tiny planet. Jesus has said much more stuff then what we have written, because Jesus existed before the Earth was ever created. lucifer existed as well before the Earth was ever created, lucifer was one of billions times billions times billions of inhabitants of Heaven, residing and living in the Kingdom of God, with Jesus on the Throne. i am not referring to the smaller picture of humankind's existence which in its entirety is but a vapor of smoke in eternity. i am referring to the Kingdom of Heaven, prior to all that Jesus said to humans, prior to the Earth even being created. Again, we are talking about two different things.

And equating Jesus with Satan as you claimed prior would be considered a heresy in most traditional camps. That is why I asked you if you are MORMON? 2nd request. That is what 'they' believe.

i know not what they believe, however the book of Mormon teaches no such thing. Your statement above saying that i have equated Jesus with satan, again you seem to be stuck in what is now, the present, in this life. Yes it would be an evil thing to do, to equate Jesus with satan NOW, in this life. AFTER lucifer created sin. Oh by the way, i take no offense at your accusation towards me, i know it is because we are not on the same page. You thought i was equating Jesus with satan now, when i was not, i only said that lucifer was in Heaven with Jesus, and everyone in Heaven was perfect and worshiped God, they all worshiped Jesus Christ, even lucifer. Tell me, before the Earth was created where do you think lucifer dwelt? lucifer is an immortal being, he has always existed as an immortal being, before the Earth or humans was created, where did lucifer live? Before the Earth was created ALL of the Universe was considered the Kingdom of Heaven. as i have said before lucifer was an inhabitant of the Kingdom of Heaven, he lived there and worshiped there, and he as all the other inhabitants did, sang and praised Jesus. but one day lucifer wanted more, sin was found in him, he is the father of sin itself, because lucifer created that desire to want more then he had, he wanted to be worshiped instead of being the one to worship. God did not create this desire in lucifer, that desire was created by lucifer himself, sin was born in lucifer, he is the father of it, because he created it, he started it. Once started, God had to deal with it. That is why there was a war in Heaven, that is why the Earth was created, that is why humans were created to be tested to see who they want to the serve, the devil or God. Who you choose to obey is who you choose to be your Master.

Retributive evil done directly by God is also a solid scriptural fact. God Himself has directed and even caused the murder of infants by the score as it pertained to prediluvian inhabitants of the earth and antidiluvian inhabitants of the earth who were the enemies of Israel and even David's infant son, among many others. God even wanted to kill Moses at one point.

This is True, and i have said no differently, nor have i implied any differently, maybe your understanding of what i have been saying is in error, just ask me if that is what i am meaning, instead of assuming that i mean this or that.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This is most certainly true as well, God does create evil to suit His purpose, i have said no differently. The difference is, i am discussing how sin came about, God did not create evil in lucifer, that was all lucifers doing and the sole reason he was kicked out of Heaven, to no longer participate in the Kingdom of Heaven. God does create evil on the Earth and He does allow it on the Earth to serve His purpose which is to test all spirits that are in human flesh. This however does not mean God created evil in lucifer. Everything was fine in the Kingdom of Heaven, perfect, no problems, no wars, perfectness. UNTIL lucifer, by his own self, and through his own desires created sin in himself. This is why the Earth was created and humankind with it.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive;

s[/QUOTE]

True, during the generation of humankind, this is absolutely True, but before this He never killed, there was no need to, no reason to, no testing done, nothing to kill. Before the Earth was created, there was no death. Only immortality. Even the spirit that is inside of each of us will not die, it is immortal, our flesh will die, but the spirit will either live for eternity in Heaven, or eternity not in Heaven. The spirit inside of you doesn't know death, it, like lucifer, has always existed.

Hope this has helped in some way.

^i^