Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

[Elijah674]

can i ask you when you take your garbage out once a week to the do you need a compatible bible verse so you can do it properly?
Because unless you are taking the garbage out to the road according to the bible you are doing it incorrectly.

Do you ever feel as though you like creating a legalism binding yourself with your bible verses to replace the law?

Don't take me wrong dude but I worry for you I get the feeling everything must be black and white for you. In our grey world that will give you no peace.

Please don't take what I say as a bad thing. I mean you no harm.

I tend to write intuitively as I feel led. That drives people nuts who need to see things in black and white.

Led by who is the question???


The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day. But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble.

Proverbs 4:18-19

 

[smaller]

It's a hard concept to get your head around, that while we sense that loving relationship with God the redeemer there is also in the same God the creator. His plan is we must die to pave the way for our young to live, that way the earth constantly renews. I don't like that plan but I am part of it and will be. No point worrying.

You just accept it and say "oh well!" thats how it is.

You can mentally agonize over it all but it gets you nowhere.

I'll bet these thoughts we are having about this have been on the minds of billions of people over thousands of years before us.

Indeed. Even Taoists understand the fact that good isn't always good and bad isn't always bad.

His Word and Spirit does engage us into beneficial matters of interest in the arena of theodicy. Not too many see that Gods deployments are patterns in methods that are repeated from the beginning and exist currently.

Paul found matters of evil quite personal, and directly related to the sowing of Gods Words in him, shown in Romans 7.

So it's one thing to observe the evil in the world, knowing the whole world lies in wickedness. It is quite another to realize that evil is present with us, that is 'within' us.

That is the ugliest part of all. But I consider it a factual disclosure and have benefited from the understanding. It does lead and cause one to deny himself on that side of the ledger through disassociation and seeking to do what is good and right.

s

 

[heymikey80]

I'm totally lost here.

The excluded middle: that God's decision is neither just for His emotional happiness, nor is it for human comfort.

I'm not even sure what you are saying here. Is it that God gave my sister M.S. for her own good???

I didn't say that it was ultimately given for her personal good, no.

But as to whether MS was for her good in some sense -- does God work everything for the good of those who love Him? Or not?

Finally, and ultimately, God isn't here simply to give Himself jollies; but neither is He here to give us jollies, either.

Again, I DON"T THINK you are saying that - but I'm unsure of what it is you are saying.

More complicated than that, God organizes the entire world to achieve goals He intends to be much greater than a lifelong physical ailment.

 

[Elijah674]

The excluded middle: that God's decision is neither just for His emotional happiness, nor is it for human comfort.

I didn't say that it was ultimately given for her personal good, no.

But as to whether MS was for her good in some sense -- does God work everything for the good of those who love Him? Or not?

Finally, and ultimately, God isn't here simply to give Himself jollies; but neither is He here to give us jollies, either.

More complicated than that, God organizes the entire world to achieve goals He intends to be much greater than a lifelong physical ailment.

A lot of talk is not what God wants from us here on this earth! Do you not know any scripture of Matt. 4:4's 'food' to do the 'teaching' with???

So far, we see one large 'fold' teaching for many years that mankind were created with NO Freedom of Choice. God has pre/programed them to do both, be saved & to be eternally burning in a suffering hell, regardless of guilt or age.

And that neither one of the two could do anything different than what the end result will be. Rather the.. NO END RESULT will be. And what is interesting, is that these saved ones claim to be Born Again and with that pre/programing.

And never could 'i' be sold on either of those two assumptions!
--Elijah

 

[heymikey80]

A lot of talk is not what God wants from us here on this earth! Do you not know any scripture of Matt. 4:4's 'food' to do the 'teaching' with???

You mean, such as ...

"God works all things for the good of those who love Him"

or

"You are not your own, you were bought with a price"

?

So far, we see one large 'fold' teaching for many years that mankind were created with NO Freedom of Choice. God has pre/programed them to do both, be saved & to be eternally burning in a suffering hell, regardless of guilt or age. And that neither one of the two could do anything different than what the end result will be. Rather the.. NO END RESULT will be. And what is interesting, is that these saved ones claim to be Born Again and with that pre/programing.

And never could 'i' be sold on either of those two assumptions!
--Elijah

I certainly don't know any large group asserting such. And being a Calvinist, I can demonstrate if you like.

What this large group objects to is a relatively recent philosophy popped up during the Enlightenment, known as "libertarian free will" -- the idea that God has no involvement at any level in human choice, or that the human will is completely free of God.

Now, there are indeed much further afield, small groups of views asserting a complete lack of choice. These people aren't recent, they go back at least to the Greek Stoics, but they've emerged as a vocal group again, in the Enlightenment.

These two groups are both neglecting the excluded middle as well, the middle embraced by all the large groups in Christianity. There are indeed sharp differences among these large groups. But let's not confuse those differences with an Enlightenment fight between two shallow falsehoods.

 

[savedbygrace57]

It was of God's Purpose that both satan sin with his angels, and that adam sin in order to bring to pass His Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus Our Lord !

This purpose was set in stone even before satan was created or before adam was created !

Eph 3:9-11

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[savedbygrace57]

Made subject to vanity !

Rom 8:20

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The creature was made subject to vanity or perverseness, depravity, for that's the meaning of the word, not willingly or by choice [but by God's Eternal set Purpose] but by reason of Him [God] who hath subjected [decreed the fall ] the same [the creation or creature] in Hope ! The Hope of Eternal Life Titus 1:1-2

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


The Hope of Glory Col 1:27

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The World was Created for this Mystery Eph 3:3-11

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

For this Hope preceded the Creation of Adam and the fall of Adam, in fact Adam was Created for that Purpose in Christ Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

For Christ and that Eternal Purpose of Eph 3:11 !

Yes this Hope preceded the Creation and Fall of Adam and the Creation or creature, that is all the Elect and the World they are to inhabit and inherit See Ps 37:9,11,22; Matt 5:5.

This proves that the World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose centered in Christ Jesus and the calling of the Gentiles Eph 3, this also means that God had no future eschatological purpose for an ethnic people !

 

[John O]

It was of God's Purpose that both satan sin with his angels, and that adam sin in order to bring to pass His Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus Our Lord !

This purpose was set in stone even before satan was created or before adam was created !

Eph 3:9-11

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This makes no sense as it asserts that God a Holy and just God without any blemish or sin within Him would create sin that it might fulfill a predetermined purpose He has for mankind. Either God is without sin or He is not. If without He cannot create evil for it is against His very character( He can allow evil though by given His creation the option to choose or reject Him). If sin exists within Him His word is a lie and therefore we need have nothing to do with Him.

I am so grateful that He does not lie and sin/evil does not exist within Him.

John O

 

[heymikey80]

This makes no sense as it asserts that God a Holy and just God without any blemish or sin within Him would create sin that it might fulfill a predetermined purpose He has for mankind. Either God is without sin or He is not. If without He cannot create evil for it is against His very character( He can allow evil though by given His creation the option to choose or reject Him). If sin exists within Him His word is a lie and therefore we need have nothing to do with Him.

I am so grateful that He does not lie and sin/evil does not exist within Him.

John O

I think the issue might be more finely tuned as, "Is the concept of evil itself, sin?" I don't think so. I think God is perfectly capable of understanding sin in its entirety. And God's reaction is redemption, not simply opposition, and that is far above the bar of ethics that God be opposed to evil. So God is not evil.

 

[savedbygrace57]

heym

And God's reaction is redemption

Thats not the God of the scripture, He does not react to anything. Sin is a Reaction to His Eternal Purpose of Redemption !

 

[John O]

heym



Thats not the God of the scripture, He does not react to anything. Sin is a Reaction to His Eternal Purpose of Redemption !

You are correct God does not react He foresees all that will happen which is huge when you stop and think of the possibility of that.

John O

 

[heymikey80]

Thats not the God of the scripture, He does not react to anything. Sin is a Reaction to His Eternal Purpose of Redemption !

Does God not react to Himself? God reacts to His own assessment, in reacting for our redemption. This is not an effect of any cause but Himself.

If God does not react, then God does not interact.

If you'd like a long list of Scriptures showing God interacting and indeed reacting to His creations, that could readily be reproduced. His talking with Abraham and Moses comes to mind pretty quickly. But "for us, and for our salvation" itself reflects a pretty obvious reaction.

 

[Elijah674]

Does God not react to Himself? God reacts to His own assessment, in reacting for our redemption. This is not an effect of any cause but Himself.

If God does not react, then God does not interact.

If you'd like a long list of Scriptures showing God interacting and indeed reacting to His creations, that could readily be reproduced. His talking with Abraham and Moses comes to mind pretty quickly. But "for us, and for our salvation" itself reflects a pretty obvious reaction.

You say.. 'This is not an effect of any cause but Himself.'
I do agree that God did confuse the babbling 'tongue' ones at the tower of Babel.

 

[elijah23]

Sin occurs because we don't want to put forth the effort to obey the Lord.

 

[savedbygrace57]

heym

Does God not react to Himself?

You tell me ? Show us from scripture . Also define what is meant by God reacting to Himself, I never heard of such thing.

What I do know, is that sin is an effect of God's Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus, and not the other way around !

 

[heymikey80]

You tell me ? Show us from scripture . Also define what is meant by God reacting to Himself, I never heard of such thing.

The first are often some of the best:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.â€

27 So God created man in his own image Genesis 1:26-27

Counsel, then action. God reacts to His Own counsel, His Own thinking.

The input of other items is thus derivative from this point: God creates other things, and based on His desires -- not His needs -- God chooses freely to help people who are in trouble. Clearly it would be nonsensical to save people from nothing. God being coherent would save people from a need of their own to be saved. Therefore facts enter into the situation in which God responds.

This does not set aside God's omniscience nor His omnipotence: God is both. What it does establish is God's distinction from His Creation: God is not His Creation, and so God and His Creation are separate entities that interact with one another.

 

[savedbygrace57]

[edited] God Created this World specifically for an Redemptive Purpose centered in Christ Jesus, its called God's Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

From the Time God said:

Gen 1:1-4

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

When He said that, it was in pursuit of the fulfillment of His Eternal Purpose, which was Redemptive, centered in Christ Jesus.

 

[heymikey80]

You are not making any sense at all.

(Oh, let's get personal?)

God said -- to Whom? Himself. Seems sensible enough to me.

God then acted.

God took counsel with Himself, and then acted.

Are you saying God doesn't consult His own thinking to determine His works? I think that would be the nonsensical result.

As you're probably realizing, this self-consultation, responding to self, is a necessary result of self determination -- something God has absolutely. And it's something that doesn't contradict your assertions, either. In order for God's actions to be according to His purpose, they must be exercised in accord with His purpose. Once again God takes counsel with Himself.

 

[savedbygrace57]

(Oh, let's get personal?)

God said -- to Whom? Himself. Seems sensible enough to me.

God then acted.

God took counsel with Himself, and then acted.

Are you saying God doesn't consult His own thinking to determine His works? I think that would be the nonsensical result.

As you're probably realizing, this self-consultation, responding to self, is a necessary result of self determination -- something God has absolutely. And it's something that doesn't contradict your assertions, either. In order for God's actions to be according to His purpose, they must be exercised in accord with His purpose. Once again God takes counsel with Himself.

God Created this World specifically for an Redemptive Purpose centered in Christ Jesus, its called God's Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

From the Time God said:

Gen 1:1-4

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

When He said that, it was in pursuit of the fulfillment of His Eternal Purpose, which was Redemptive, centered in Christ Jesus.

 

[John O]

God Created this World specifically for an Redemptive Purpose centered in Christ Jesus, its called God's Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

From the Time God said:

Gen 1:1-4

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

When He said that, it was in pursuit of the fulfillment of His Eternal Purpose, which was Redemptive, centered in Christ Jesus.

God created all things for His pleasure not redemptive purposes at least that is what the word of God says.

Rev 4:11 O Lord, You are worthy to receive glory and honor and power, because You created all things, and for Your will they are and were created.

John O