Is it Really So Easy?

[Guest]

Before answering this also read Matthew 15:19-20 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone. Also read Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Notice the word heart in both these scriptures.

So is it reasonable to assume that a renewing of the heart must take place first? Which is a process, as I am finding out through personal experience.

Transformation and renewing are two different things. Yes a renewal of the heart takes place when we are transformed upon salvation. However, transformation only takes places once in our lives when we accept Jesus into our hearts, being born again. Renewal takes place throughout our lives when he anoints us. 1 John 2:27 But <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Bonheifer points out that is neither all grace, nor all works. Separated, one extreme excuses us from doing anything for others or for God, and the other leaves God out of the picture entirely. They both go together.

IMO, Bonheifer got his signals crossed. By Eph 2:8-9 it is by grace and faith, not grace and works. So I would say it this way, that it is not by grace alone or by faith alone, but by a good balance of grace and faith.

I took it as he wasn't talking about salvation strictly or exclusively, but yeah. Not sure I agreed with everything in the book, but there was lots of food for thought and that's always a good thing.

Anyways, from what I can tell: salvation = easy. Life after salvation = not so much. We are expected to obey God, and He sends trials our way for our learning and to make us stronger.

 

[farouk]

Bonheifer points out that is neither all grace, nor all works. Separated, one extreme excuses us from doing anything for others or for God, and the other leaves God out of the picture entirely. They both go together.

IMO, Bonheifer got his signals crossed. By Eph 2:8-9 it is by grace and faith, not grace and works. So I would say it this way, that it is not by grace alone or by faith alone, but by a good balance of grace and faith.

I took it as he wasn't talking about salvation strictly or exclusively, but yeah. Not sure I agreed with everything in the book, but there was lots of food for thought and that's always a good thing.

Anyways, from what I can tell: salvation = easy. Life after salvation = not so much. We are expected to obey God, and He sends trials our way for our learning and to make us stronger.

questdriven:

There is indeed a simplicity in the sinner humbly bowing before the Cross of the Lord Jesus, in complete dependence on His Grace. The proud sinner finds it intensely hard and impossible to do in his or her own strength, however.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Anyways, from what I can tell: salvation = easy. Life after salvation = not so much. We are expected to obey God, and He sends trials our way for our learning and to make us stronger.

I agree. I think the problem is that some people get way far left/right grace, "oh I'm saved so now I can go tripping through the tulips and not fall on my face or if I do not to worry God forgives me (which He does) but they just keep going and don't learn anything. No change of mind about whatever it was.

Others go so far the opposite that faith ends up works performed to earn something from God. That's why I say there is a balance here.

It appears to me that the problem lies in extremes.

You have a very solid Biblical view, IMO.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Anyways, from what I can tell: salvation = easy. Life after salvation = not so much. We are expected to obey God, and He sends trials our way for our learning and to make us stronger.

I agree. I think the problem is that some people get way far left/right grace, "oh I'm saved so now I can go tripping through the tulips and not fall on my face or if I do not to worry God forgives me (which He does) but they just keep going and don't learn anything. No change of mind about whatever it was.

Others go so far the opposite that faith ends up works performed to earn something from God. That's why I say there is a balance here.

It appears to me that the problem lies in extremes.

I can think next to no examples in anything where extremes are the way to go. Seems that usually the answer is somewhere inbetween.

 

[farouk]

Anyways, from what I can tell: salvation = easy. Life after salvation = not so much. We are expected to obey God, and He sends trials our way for our learning and to make us stronger.

I agree. I think the problem is that some people get way far left/right grace, "oh I'm saved so now I can go tripping through the tulips and not fall on my face or if I do not to worry God forgives me (which He does) but they just keep going and don't learn anything. No change of mind about whatever it was.

Others go so far the opposite that faith ends up works performed to earn something from God. That's why I say there is a balance here.

It appears to me that the problem lies in extremes.

I can think next to no examples in anything where extremes are the way to go. Seems that usually the answer is somewhere inbetween.

questdriven:

Amen, yes, indeed, as long as we get a clear sense of what it is to be relying on God's wondrous grace alone, depening on the finished work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross.

Blessings.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I agree. At the moment we believe we are Justified,Sanctified,righteous.

Are you referring to complete sanctification happens in the moment the person believes? Sanctification by the way, comes from the Greek word ἁγιάζω, which means "to make holy." So to say that the believer is as perfectly holy as they will ever be the moment they believe is greatly in error.

Our position in Christ, As the father sees us. It will never change.

Is that so?

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

Jesus in v.1 clearly laid out that he is the vine, and we are the branches, so there are some branches or people rather in him that do not bear fruit, these the vine-dresser or the Father in this metaphor, takes away the branches that do not bear fruit. What's important to observe however is that these were branches in the vine, these were people in Christ who did not bear fruit and thus are removed and it is later specified, thrown in the fire to be burned.

He is King of kings and Lord of lords.....This life is to figure out the position we will have with our King. A king or a lord And other positions.

if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; 2 Timothy 2:12(ESV)

If we endure in faith we all of us believers will reign over the new creation with Christ, but if we deny him in this life, he also will deny us before the Father. To say it is all about rewards now for the believer, and there is no fear of falling away is to betray the clear teachings of Scripture.

It depends on our choice to listen and act or live the way we want. Heaven bound none the less though.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:5(ESV)

Scripture is crystal clear on this matter, and Paul was right in that some people would come and try to deceive believers by saying that those who live in this way and act in this way DO in fact have an inheritance in the kingdom. That my friend is heresy, as it clearly the thing Paul and the other apostles were refuting.

One could say though, that though they actively do these works, their imputed righteousness in Christ keeps them in proper standing. This is one of the major errors of that doctrine, as if man needed to accrue a certain amount of moral capital in order to make it into heaven.

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7(ESV)

This word for practices ποιῶν, is in the present participle in the Greek, thus demonstrating a habitual life style, not just simply some declaration of righteousness being sufficient as some suppose. If someone is going to claim they are righteous, their life MUST reflect that verdict. Let NO ONE deceive you. It is the one who actually practices righteousness (not just some spiritual position in Christ) who is righteous.

You are in grave error here..

 

[George Muller]

So do you think that the moment that you say the sinners prayer that your name is written in the book of life? Just like that, instantly?

On earth before promotion to anything performance and knowledge is a prerequisite. A test, college, performance of duty in the Military, degrees are not just handed out for the asking. Privates are not made Generals from sheer desire. Dedication, good judgement, a structured evaluation and demonstration of abilities and knowledge is always required for anything. In the Military testing is not always required for promotion, sometimes just a demonstrated ability of leadership qualities can get one promoted.

What about salvation? Of course man does not have grace within himself like God does. It is a free gift, and yet, Paul Himself speaks in a slight tone which indicates that some performance is in order.

1 Corinthians 9:25-27

25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize./ (NIV)

2 Timothy 4:1-8

1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing./ (NIV)

He's talking to Timothy, (His son?) and charges him with what he must do. He sort of implies that this is necessary. Perhaps, just perhaps, that merely saying the sinners prayer and being baptised is not enough to receive salvation. A free gift for sure, but faith without works is dead and does not not seem to be enough to establish an honest belief in our Lord. If we love the Lord, we will keep His commandments. Many churches do not give this message. They probably get a bigger offering by merely making people feel good, and not charging them with Christian duties. Feel good preachers. What do you think?

I would say that it is the same conscience that brought us to Christ that must answer to Christ.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

In what way is it hard?
Can you explain so I can see it contradicts what I am saying?

Well, this is what happens when salvation is summed up to a kind of transaction that happens. Salvation is ultimately experienced in the Resurrection and God's justification of us on the last day. However, we through faith experience that future salvation, the newness of life and present justification. This is not 100% assured however, one must endure in faith to the end, to fight the good fight of faith and be not just a convert who once claimed Jesus as Lord, but be a disciple who actually does what Jesus says.

Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:27-33

This is a good example that Jesus uses.

There are two examples given here, the tower builder and the king going to war. The point he is drawing here is that no king or tower builder, would set out to build a tower or go to war without counting the costs and looking to see whether or not he could endure the battle, or have a enough money to finish the tower.

Jesus is pointing out the foolishness of those who seek to be Jesus' disciples without first counting the costs of the difficulties that will arise, even saying at the end, "anyone who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple."

How does that sound to you? Easy or hard?

So are you saying that we should all expect a difficult time trying to "keep our salvation"?
That is how you sound and I will answer.
Both your passages refer to back-sliders or those never really saved.
Do you see all saved christians as back-sliders?


I see both passages as Jesus wanting to strengthen his church and so he was weeding out the fringe people.

What is our cost of salvation?

We are suddenly in the light of God and can now clearly see the darkness of the world.
Now we know what not to do.
As we increase with the knowledge of God we see the sorrow of the world and the need to reach out to them with the truth.
We now see that we have new duties and cares in life.
We must now show our sincerity in dealing with seriously issues.
It will cost us tears as we feel for others who are suffering.
It will cost us resistance to avenge.
It will cost us fears as we walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
It will cost us our life if we are called to be faithful and bear testimony at the hands of our enemies.

Salvation cannot be purchased, but there are consequences that go with receiving it.
But is it hard?
No, not if one walks with God and trusts God in all things.

As Jesus said, Matthew 11:30, "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light".

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So are you saying that we should all expect a difficult time trying to "keep our salvation"?
That is how you sound and I will answer.

This is where you aren't hearing the whole message of what I am saying. Salvation isn't a possession that is to be kept or lost, it is primarily an event to attain to, to reach. The Resurrection of the righteous.

that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Philippians 3:10-11(ESV)

Both your passages refer to back-sliders or those never really saved.
Do you see all saved christians as back-sliders?

I see both passages as Jesus wanting to strengthen his church and so he was weeding out the fringe people.

This is called "eisegesis" which involves reading ones theology into the text, rather than exegesis which is extracting what is there to derive meaning.

Can you point out specifically where in any of these texts I have quoted where it talks about certain people not being genuine? Or does your position require you to presuppose that such a person could never have been truly a disciple and believer?

What is our cost of salvation?

In one sense, nothing, and in another everything.

Salvation cannot be purchased, but there are consequences that go with receiving it.
But is it hard?
No, not if one walks with God and trusts God in all things.

Do you not believe Jesus when he said the way is hard and the gate narrow that leads to eternal life? Do you find it a cake walk being a Christian? If so, what kind of Christianity are you living?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Do you not believe Jesus when he said the way is hard and the gate narrow that leads to eternal life? Do you find it a cake walk being a Christian? If so, what kind of Christianity are you living?

The Bible doesn't say it is hard, it says that the road is narrow and few find it.
You can say it was hard to find it, I can say it was easy once I saw it.

Your parable choices here are talking about the cost of being a disciple. Am I wrong in saying it is the cost of salvation?

I believe exegesis is appropriate with my responses.

These are parables. You have to extract the meaning from it.
I believe I did that.

 

[George Muller]

I think much of the scriptures should be seen in context that the "flesh" should be put to death and life "in Christ" is by His power and strength. Yes the Christian life is impossible in our own strength. BUT when we are in fact dependent upon CHRIST ans HIS GRACE, we are strong.
As G. Muller once put it? He considered himself one of the weakest of men, when it came to the temptations of this world, but his weakness forced his dependence upon the strength of Gods grace. In his weakness, he became a strong in the LORD.
Zec 4:6

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The Bible doesn't say it is hard, it says that the road is narrow and few find it.
You can say it was hard to find it, I can say it was easy once I saw it.

You're not reading it, or you're refusing to see it.

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:14(ESV)

Why does the the ESV say "hard" and the NASB say "narrow," both translations work, but both don't really illustrate the Greek word τεθλιμμένη which is used here. It is the imagery of a narrow passage, that constrains the person on all sides so that the passages is not navigated through without great difficulty, this is most likely to represent persecution.

Your parable choices here are talking about the cost of being a disciple. Am I wrong in saying it is the cost of salvation?

Well, I think it's important that we distinguish what a convert is over against what a disciple is. There are many people who claim to be converted to Christianity, but they have either since given up following Jesus (actually being his disciple) or never did follow what Jesus commanded.

If one isn't truly a disciple, they will not enter into eternal life at the final judgement, so in a sense yes you could.

I believe exegesis is appropriate with my responses.

Where do you then EXTRACT from the text that the people were never truly saved? This of course refers to the hypothetical person who begins to follow Jesus as his disciple, but never really counted the cost of doing so, then later denies him. Where do you draw such a conclusion out from the text, that these people were not genuine?

These are parables. You have to extract the meaning from it.
I believe I did that.

You have to extract the meaning from it, by extracting from what is there, not what you want to be there. Therefore, this would not be considered consistent exegesis with the text given.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You're not reading it, or you're refusing to see it.

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:14(ESV)

Why does the the ESV say "hard" and the NASB say "narrow," both translations work, but both don't really illustrate the Greek word τεθλιμμένη which is used here. It is the imagery of a narrow passage, that constrains the person on all sides so that the passages is not navigated through without great difficulty, this is most likely to represent persecution.

Well, I think it's important that we distinguish what a convert is over against what a disciple is. There are many people who claim to be converted to Christianity, but they have either since given up following Jesus (actually being his disciple) or never did follow what Jesus commanded.

If one isn't truly a disciple, they will not enter into eternal life at the final judgement, so in a sense yes you could.

Where do you then EXTRACT from the text that the people were never truly saved? This of course refers to the hypothetical person who begins to follow Jesus as his disciple, but never really counted the cost of doing so, then later denies him. Where do you draw such a conclusion out from the text, that these people were not genuine?

These are parables. You have to extract the meaning from it.
I believe I did that.

You have to extract the meaning from it, by extracting from what is there, not what you want to be there. Therefore, this would not be considered consistent exegesis with the text given.

Your Bible says one thing and mine says another.
You interpret parables your way, I interpret them mine.
You use greek words I know nothing about.
I am influenced by Spurgeon and my commentary writers, and your teaching contradicts them.

I sent you a PM and you have refused to identify yourself to me.

I think I'll stick with what I know and what I got and pass on you.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Your Bible says one thing and mine says another.

I explained why that was. I was at work and couldn't cite any lexicons to further establish my position, but I'll do so now.

22.21 θλίβωb: to cause someone to suffer trouble or hardship—‘to cause trouble to, to persecute, to cause to suffer hardship.’ ἀνταποδοῦναι τοῖς θλίβουσιν ὑμᾶς θλῖψιν ‘to bring suffering on those who make you suffer’ 2 Th 1:6; στενὴ ἡ πύλη καὶ τεθλιμμένη ἡ ὁδός ‘the gate is narrow and the way is difficult (to travel)’ Mt 7:14.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (244). New York: United Bible Societies.

4. thlibo (θλίβω, 2346), “to suffer affliction, to be troubled,” has reference to sufferings due to the pressure of circumstances, or the antagonism of persons, 1 Thess. 3:4; 2 Thess. 1:6-7; “straitened,” in Matt. 7:14 (RV); “throng,” Mark 3:9; “afflicted,” 2 Cor. 1:6; 7:5 (RV); 1 Tim. 5:10; Heb. 11:37; “pressed,” 2 Cor. 4:8. Both the verb and the noun (see B, No. 4), when used of the present experience of believers, refer almost invariably to that which comes upon them from without. See NARROW, PRESS, STRAITENED, THRONG, TRIBULATION, TROUBLE.¶

Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vol. 2: Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (17–18). Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.

② to cause someth. to be constricted or narrow, press together, compress, make narrow (Dionys. Hal. 8, 73 βίοι τεθλιμμένοι, provisions that have become scarce; ὁ θεὸς ἔθλιψεν τὴν σελήνην GrBar 9:7); pass. of space that is limited (of small living quarters Theocr. 21, 18 θλιβομένα καλύβα= tight quarters; Lucian, Alex. 49 τ. πόλεως θλιβομένης ὑπὸ τ. πλήθους =the city jammed full w. a multitude) ἔν τινι τόπῳ τεθλιμμένῳ καὶ πεπληρωμένῳ ἑρπετῶν πονηρῶν a tight place and full of bad snakes = a place jammed full with bad snakes ApcPt 10:25 (the misery is twofold: tight quarters to begin with and being totally surrounded by snakes). Of a road (w. a corresp. στενὴ πύλη) ὁδὸς τεθλιμμένη a narrow, confined road and therefore a source of trouble or difficulty to those using it Mt 7:14 (TestAbr A 11 p. 88, 30 [Stone p. 24]; s. KBornhäuser, Die Bergpredigt 1923, 177ff); on the imagery s. AMattill, JBL 98, ’79, 531–46; Betz, SM 527: “The chances of failure are greater than the chances of success, a sobering message.”

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (457). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

Most importantly though is to examine it's usage in other locations within the NT and other literature.

And he told his disciples that a small boat should stand ready for him because of the crowd, so that they would not press upon him. Mark 3:9(LEB)

This word for "press" is the same Greek word found in Matthew 7:14, the imagery used here would be that Jesus told his disciples to stand ready with a small boat, so that the crowd wouldn't press in on him and crush him. This is the imagery that I feel supports my interpretation of Matthew 7:14, where the word "narrow" doesn't fully imagine all of what is being said here, that indeed it is being pressed in on all sides because of the hardship of following Jesus and bearing the reproach of others for his namesake.

You interpret parables your way, I interpret them mine.

Yes, but both interpretations cannot be correct, I have asked you to explain where you get certain concepts such as the people referenced weren't truly saved. I asked you where you received that information from in regards to the text, you could not do that.

You use greek words I know nothing about.

You do realize that the New Testament was originally written in Greek, therefore the most accurate representation of the text will be found in the Greek text not your favorite translation. I suggest you begin studying the original languages to some degree so that you will be able to communicate these things if you want to take Biblical studies seriously and progress.

I am influenced by Spurgeon and my commentary writers, and your teaching contradicts them.

That is because of their theological presuppositions they bring to the text, Spurgeon is a Calvinist, who believes in Perseverance of the Saints. In other words, he holds that no one who is truly saved will ever be lost but will endure to the end in faith if indeed they are genuine, thus these words spoken by Jesus are simply to weed out those who aren't truly genuinely the elect.

I sent you a PM and you have refused to identify yourself to me.

I meant to reply back to your PM this weekend, but was unable to. I can do so now though, thanks for the reminder.

I think I'll stick with what I know and what I got and pass on you.

Let me ask you this, why do you differ so strongly with what I am saying? Are you able to demonstrate 1) that my understanding of the Greek word is wrong? (I have now supported it with some of the most reputable lexicons out there), 2) demonstrate that these people in these texts (hypothetically) were not truly believers/disciples who simply didn't count the cost.

I strive to be as faithful to God's Word as possible and I am not afraid to show my work and explain why I see it one way or the other, I just am asking for the same courtesy from you.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

 

[George Muller]

The "narrow" way is the Cross, A man must die to self. How many really take this narrow way?

 

[evenifigoalone]

The "narrow" way is the Cross, A man must die to self. How many really take this narrow way?

Like the user name. George Muller had a great testimony.

 

[Slider]

Yea.... It's really easy. It's that Easy. Give up your life. That's how easy it is.

 

[Atonement]

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:14(ESV)

This is why I personally do not like or use this translation because just like the NIV, it has added things that are never meant to be there. This is a prime example..

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14 KJV

 

[George Muller]

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:14(ESV)

This is why I personally do not like or use this translation because just like the NIV, it has added things that are never meant to be there. This is a prime example..

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14 KJV

It for sure seems the KJV is bringing the truth of that scripture, much more so than the other translations. A "gate" is not hard but very well could be "narrow".