Is it Really So Easy?

[Deborah13]

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way

This passage always reminds me of Pilgrims Progress. You have to go through the gate, you can't jump the fence or climb through it. The path is narrow to get there. Jesus is the only way.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That is because of their theological presuppositions they bring to the text, Spurgeon is a Calvinist, who believes in Perseverance of the Saints. In other words, he holds that no one who is truly saved will ever be lost but will endure to the end in faith if indeed they are genuine, thus these words spoken by Jesus are simply to weed out those who aren't truly genuinely the elect.

Spurgeon broke from Calvinism because he disagreed on too many issues.
However, the rest of what you say here is exactly as I believe.

Using such large bold letters in the word "hard" is calling me out.
You should think about how you express yourself before you ask for the same courtesy.

I was not prepared to challenge you on your level.
Generally, people accept a challenge from me on my level.
I find it hard coming up to your level.
Do you also find it hard coming down to my level?
If so, there will be many people you will never reach.

 

[Atonement]

[MENTION=96193]Doulos Iesou[/MENTION]

Greetings to you in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ

I can appreciate all the lengthy responses you have been making on this subject, it is showing some us (me anyways) that you are the one making it hard.

Let me ask you a honest, sincere question???



How many people will you have question their faith and their salvation before you had enough??


God Bless




Edited - Word in red added

 

[George Muller]

The "narrow" way is the Cross, A man must die to self. How many really take this narrow way?

Like the user name. George Muller had a great testimony.

No doubt many could learn about the true meaning of the "narrow" way,.from this great and humble servant of God. I know that his love for the orphans and his faith in God is not the path that is broad, nor do I think many have walked upon the high and righteous paths that he seemed to walk?

 

[evenifigoalone]

The "narrow" way is the Cross, A man must die to self. How many really take this narrow way?

Like the user name. George Muller had a great testimony.

No doubt many could learn about the true meaning of the "narrow" way,.from this great and humble servant of God. I know that his love for the orphans and his faith in God is not the path that is broad, nor do I think many have walked upon the high and righteous paths that he seemed to walk?

He definitely had a very close and personal relationship with God. Makes one think they could at least do more to be like that.
My dad used to say he'd probably feel ashamed in heaven standing next to someone with his kind of testimony. And my dad I consider to have been a very strong Christian, with a sound testimony. I used to think that I'd at least like to do as well as my dad did.

 

[About the Son of God]

Bonheifer points out that is neither all grace, nor all works. Separated, one extreme excuses us from doing anything for others or for God, and the other leaves God out of the picture entirely. They both go together.

IMO, Bonheifer got his signals crossed. By Eph 2:8-9 it is by grace and faith, not grace and works. So I would say it this way, that it is not by grace alone or by faith alone, but by a good balance of grace and faith.

I'm lovin most of your posts.
Yes Timothy had a Greek Father (Acts 16:1) you remembered that right; Therefore Paul's not his dad.

I tried to touch on the idea of "work" vs. "Works" in another thread; and I don't want to repeat it (too long) so I'll just link to part of it and sum up:
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49081&p=790348&viewfull=1#post790348

The Bible teaches that Faith is technically a single "work" which doesn't earn anything (no - remuneration). John 6:28-29.
This is repeated in Philippians 2:12-14; and even includes the contextual reference to "murmurings" of the other passage (Philippians 2:14 found in John 6:41) Those passages are parallel ideas; not separate ones.

It's inescapable that all three, faith, work, and grace are intertwined.

Let me focus on "grace"; because I think it is something very identifiable in a hostess, and I might be able to share my thoughts more clearly that way.

A gracious hostess (eg: a graceful woman) is not awkward in a social setting but --prudent, dynamic, gentle, and especially responsive; She is someone who makes a social relationship easy and rewarding. Gracious implies a beauty not of looks, nor of condescension (which would belittle her guests) but a beauty of manner, action, etiquette, and disposition.

The ideas evoked by the word grace (above) show that it isn't a one way gift alone, it's a relationship; God's grace automatically implies a "Walk" with the LORD! A response to his gift, a gracious thank-you.

When true love (not admiration) is spoken of in the Old testament, I'm always awe struck at how beautifully the KJV translates it:

Ruth 2:10 ... Why have I found grace in thine eyes ...";
She is asking: Why have I found a gift -- Why have I found a thank you ?
(eg: What did I do? Matthew 25:37-40, Ruth 2:12 )

And another example: 1Samuel 20:3 and many more; all of which make sense in terms of "gift" and "thanks" depending on when the word is used.

John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
eg: "gift for thanks"

Just so -- *grace* is a word with the connotations of gift and thanks; but (an aside) when speaking only about the gift (and not the relationship too) the Greek typically says "doron" (As in the English rendered names Dorothea -- or Theodore -- eg: meaning God's gift; )

I haven't read Bonhoffer, but it doesn't bother me that he would use the word "work"; so long as he doesn't mean salvation itself (the initial gift) is owed to us. Do you somehow think he was confounding the two?

In my view, the work of keeping Jesus' commandments is a simple "Thank you" out of love for him; which has consequences ...

Matthew 22:2, Matthew 22:11-14

As a Gentile, I was not called to the wedding by first invitation -- I was an afterthought; and yet I know in Jewish custom -- the clothing is supplied by the master; woe to me if I refuse to put it on !

I've earned nothing, but I don't wish to insult the one who gave me what I have.

 

[About the Son of God]

I do not wish to get into a debate with anyone (and I won't , simply because this is an area in which my faith is fragile and has been the cause of much doubt and confusion for me), but the Bible tells me that salvation, being able to go to heaven, is accomplished by God. Not through anything I've done. But, as someone pointed out a long time ago, just going to heaven isn't enough. I wouldn't want to stand in heaven having done nothing at all for God. I would be ashamed.

I think you spoke very well.
Jesus came to you first, and invited you into a relationship.
You couldn't have made him come, you couldn't have paid him to come; but now he has freely come and because he began a relationship with you; and you responded a friendship can be for all eternity.

Faith is a relationship with Jesus Christ where he speaks to you in your heart, and you *listen* and act on what you hear. I'd be ashamed too, if I decided to NOT do anything. I want to praise him for all eternity.

Peace to you, my sister in Christ.

 

[About the Son of God]

You're not reading it, or you're refusing to see it.

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:14(ESV)

Why does the the ESV say "hard" and the NASB say "narrow," both translations work, but both don't really illustrate the Greek word τεθλιμμένη which is used here. It is the imagery of a narrow passage, that constrains the person on all sides so that the passages is not navigated through without great difficulty, this is most likely to represent persecution.

Hi!
I'm a fan of working through these kinds of problems by examples:
The word you are using in Greek, is almost a singleton according to how it is spelled. It's not obvious to the casual observer that the beta can be exchanged for a mu. Here, though, I have the exact same word and spelling in the Genitive case.

How would you translate this passage?

εν τω καιρω εκεινω ανενεχθησεται δωρα κυριω σαβαωθ εκ λαου τε-θλιμ-μεν-ου και τετιλμενου και απο λαου μεγαλου απο του νυν και εις τον αιωνα χρονον

In several places, the spelling: θλιμ exists; and it seems that "te" of Matthew 7:14 could be a temporal augment; so that since θλιμ crudely means "oppress", so could τε-θλιμ-μεν-ου

For what reason, though, do you say it represents "persecution"?
What specific persecution?

The passage you're citing is immediately after an inclusio form Matthew 5:17 (the law or the prophets) down to Matthew 7:12 (the law and the prophets). So, the topic of "What do I have to do to be saved" is surely there; but the passage you cite is *immediately* outside the inclusio, which makes it a different topic ...
So, How are you deciding what persecution it applies to?

 

[George Muller]

You're not reading it, or you're refusing to see it.

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:14(ESV)

Why does the the ESV say "hard" and the NASB say "narrow," both translations work, but both don't really illustrate the Greek word τεθλιμμένη which is used here. It is the imagery of a narrow passage, that constrains the person on all sides so that the passages is not navigated through without great difficulty, this is most likely to represent persecution.

• <table border="1"><tbody><tr vAlign="top" align="center"><td>Current word
  <table border="1"><tbody><tr><td>Inflected
  form: </td><td>
  
  </td></tr><tr><td>Base
  form: </td><td>
  
  </td></tr><tr><td>Major1: </td><td>verb </td></tr><tr><td>Tense: </td><td>perfect </td></tr><tr><td>Voice: </td><td>passive </td></tr><tr><td>Mood: </td><td>participle </td></tr><tr><td>Case: </td><td>nominative </td></tr><tr><td>Number: </td><td>singular </td></tr><tr><td>Gender: </td><td>feminine </td></tr></tbody></table>
  </td></tr></tbody></table>

the word cannot be changed, it is established in the scriptures. Not sure from what source one would claim that different spelling of the word could be made? For none of the known text are in conflict upon the spelling of this word.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi!
I'm a fan of working through these kinds of problems by examples:
The word you are using in Greek, is almost a singleton according to how it is spelled. It's not obvious to the casual observer that the beta can be exchanged for a mu. Here, though, I have the exact same word and spelling in the Genitive case.

How would you translate this passage?

εν τω καιρω εκεινω ανενεχθησεται δωρα κυριω σαβαωθ εκ λαου τε-θλιμ-μεν-ου και τετιλμενου και απο λαου μεγαλου απο του νυν και εις τον αιωνα χρονον

Well this passage is Isaiah 18:7 in the LXX, and the word is usually translated "tall" but the literal thought seems to be "stretched out." Which makes sense as the Hebrew word משׁך isn't most readily used for "tall," as only twice in this very chapter do translators render it this way, usually it means to "stretch out" or most commonly "to drag." I think ultimately though, they used a rare word in the LXX, because they personally had trouble interpreting the Hebrew word, as much of it depends on etymological speculation. Though, it seems to be describing people that are tall with bald smooth heads perhaps?

In several places, the spelling: θλιμ exists; and it seems that "te" of Matthew 7:14 could be a temporal augment; so that since θλιμ crudely means "oppress", so could τε-θλιμ-μεν-ου

For what reason, though, do you say it represents "persecution"?
What specific persecution?

I say this because of the use of this word in other places in the NT. Where the most common translation of the word is "afflicted."

since it is righteous in the sight of God to pay back those who are afflicting you with affliction, (2 Th 1:6).


22.21 θλίβωb: to cause someone to suffer trouble or hardship—‘to cause trouble to, to persecute, to cause to suffer hardship.’ ἀνταποδοῦναι τοῖς θλίβουσιν ὑμᾶς θλῖψιν ‘to bring suffering on those who make you suffer’ 2 Th 1:6; στενὴ ἡ πύλη καὶ τεθλιμμένη ἡ ὁδός ‘the gate is narrow and the way is difficult (to travel)’ Mt 7:14.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (244). New York: United Bible Societies.

The passage you're citing is immediately after an inclusio form Matthew 5:17 (the law or the prophets) down to Matthew 7:12 (the law and the prophets). So, the topic of "What do I have to do to be saved" is surely there; but the passage you cite is *immediately* outside the inclusio, which makes it a different topic ...
So, How are you deciding what persecution it applies to?

Well, I don't necessarily agree first of all, that Jesus was talking about the topic of "what do I have to do to be saved," he is more so talking about true and genuine obedience from the heart, rather than the hypocritical expression of obedience demonstrated by the Pharisees.

Jesus is speaking about the difficulty of the path that leads to life, and quite literally the imagery is a narrow passage way where you are pressed in on all sides, "constrained" and the gate is narrow and small as well. Accenting the difficulties, as the word τεθλιμμένη is emphasized in the discourse and I personally make an interpretive decision based off of it's uses elsewhere that this imagery perhaps represents the persecution and difficulty a Christian will encounter along the path that leads to life, rather than the ease of the spacious road.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Doulos Iesou]

@Doulos Iesou

Greetings to you in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ

I can appreciate all the lengthy responses you have been making on this subject, it is showing some us (me anyways) that you are the one making it hard.

Let me ask you a honest, sincere question???



How many people will you have question their faith and their salvation before you had enough??


God Bless




Edited - Word in red added

Hi Atonement,

I am a pointer to texts, none of these ideas that I am coming up with are from my own construction and thoughts, but rather are an attempt to bring out what Jesus our Lord must have meant. That just as surely as he wished to grant assurance in many places, he also said many hard things that a lot of people will not like to hear. Do we then move to what is practical, what is pragmatic? Do we simply say, "Doulos, stop quoting the hard sayings of Jesus, talk about how Jesus' yolk is easy and his burden is light, surely it's really that easy."

Many want their ears tickled, and are we loving enough to tell them the truth (which love delights in) or would we rather just build them and make them believe that following Jesus and being a Christian is really that easy and thus betray the teachings of Jesus on the cost of being his disciple.

Also, who here has come out and told me that they are questioning their salvation? Surely, if someone came out and confessed that I would have plenty of God-breathed Scriptures that give them assurance that God will finish the work they started in him, and that we don't walk this difficult life alone, indeed the fellow-ship of Jesus suffering will be one of the deepest ways in which we connect with him.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Spurgeon broke from Calvinism because he disagreed on too many issues.
However, the rest of what you say here is exactly as I believe.

Where did you read that? I have never once heard that Spurgeon left Calvinism, and I used to read a lot of Spurgeon when I was a Calvinist.

Using such large bold letters in the word "hard" is calling me out.
You should think about how you express yourself before you ask for the same courtesy.

I used the the large bolded word for emphasis because it was the second time I had cited it, and you had again denied it. We often use these kinds of construction on writing in forums to draw the readers attention and make plain what the writer really wants to communicate, I wanted to be sure you saw the difference.

I was not prepared to challenge you on your level.
Generally, people accept a challenge from me on my level.
I find it hard coming up to your level.
Do you also find it hard coming down to my level?
If so, there will be many people you will never reach.

Well, for one this is a discussion forum where most of the people spend a good amount of their time debating issues of the faith. I cited the Greek in order to support my case, as it cleared up the confusion you had about the translations. Rather than debating translations, I thought it would be more constructive to cite the original language and explain why it was rendered as different words in two literal translations.

I do not believe my language in demonstrating this was "too technical" to read, and should have been easy for the average reader to understand what it was I was conveying. Whether or not they would be able to refute the claim, I don't know, I personally doubt it because I am quite confident as the majority of the lexicography supports my conclusions.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

 

[James Lohr]

What is easy to one man may be a colossal life-long struggle to another. Ultimately it is Jesus Christ who will judge us, and so it is not for us to say how easy or hard salvation is from one man to another.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

What is easy to one man may be a colossal life-long struggle to another. Ultimately it is Jesus Christ who will judge us, and so it is not for us to say how easy or hard salvation is from one man to another.

Is salvation though, ultimately realized at the beginning of one's walk (setting out on the road), or the conclusion of the person's life (entering through the gate)?

 

[P31Woman]

Claiming to be Christian does not make one Christian. Claiming to be a believer does not make one a believer. Claiming to follow Christ does not make one a follower. Claiming to be born again does not make one born again. Claiming to be saved does not make one saved. My opinion.

Agreed. But is it instantaneous, or a renewing of the heart is needed first before one's name can written into the book of life?

We are made just before God instantaneously. (justification) Our process of sanctification then begins as we grow in Christ likeness. When we go to heaven glorification will occur when we go to heaven.

Eph 2:8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, we are already God's children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is.

 

[WIP]

Claiming to be

Nope, "claiming to be" does not make it so. But I don't think that is what Edward is talking about as he obviously, sincerely believes and has faith in the Gospel.
These are the people he is talking about, not the "claimers".

I want to make this clear. I was not suggesting nor would I ever suggest to know about another person's condition or level of Christian maturity. It is not my place to judge another. I will leave that up to the Father.

The way I read Edward's opening post was is it as simple as making a statement or uttering certain words. I do not believe it is. Those words mean nothing unless they come from one's heart. Lip service is useless. Like James wrote, "Faith without works is dead."

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I want to make this clear. I was not suggesting nor would I ever suggest to know about another person's condition or level of Christian maturity. It is not my place to judge another. I will leave that up to the Father.

I have a few questions for you,

1. Has not the Father given authority to Jesus to Judge?
2. What do you do with this Scripture?

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.†1 Corinthians 5:9-13(ESV)​

 

[Deborah13]

I want to make this clear. I was not suggesting nor would I ever suggest to know about another person's condition or level of Christian maturity. It is not my place to judge another. I will leave that up to the Father.

Oh Wip, I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were. Certainly, NOT.

I just didn't think Edward was speaking about "claimers" but more about people like me.

 

[Deborah13]

Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you

Within the church we are to judge a person's behaviors and those behaviors infecting others in the church. We are not to judge their salvation.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Within the church we are to judge a person's behaviors and those behaviors infecting others in the church. We are not to judge their salvation.

A couple questions for you,

1. How does God judge outsiders?
2. Is that related to how we are to judge those in the Church?
3. Does making the remark, "Purge the evil person from among you," not make that judgment call?