Is it Really So Easy?

[Deborah13]

Does making the remark, "Purge the evil person from among you," not make that judgment call?

No, it does not. We can only judge by what we see, not what is in a person's heart. I think the Scripture is clear that the person is doing evil and called evil for what they are doing. There is a process before purging that person that does not say they are not saved, it is about behaviors. It is for the protection of the church body and to hopefully encourage the offender to repent and be brought back into the assembly.

If we could see what is in a person heart many would be purged from churches around the world and others would be encouraged to join.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

No, it does not. We can only judge by what we see, not what is in a person's heart. I think the Scripture is clear that the person is doing evil and called evil for what they are doing.

What does Scripture say about where our actions and words come from?

But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. Matthew 15:18-19(ESV)

A person's heart is revealed by their outward actions, if they claim to be a brother, but their lives say otherwise, their heart is revealed.

There is a process before purging that person that does not say they are not saved, it is about behaviors. It is for the protection of the church body and to hopefully encourage the offender to repent and be brought back into the assembly.

Indeed, we have teaching on this from Jesus.

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17(ESV)

If we could see what is in a person heart many would be purged from churches around the world and others would be encouraged to join.

I believe it's more so that so many Christians do not really have any accountability to the leadership in their Church, and they do not really live in community either, just slip in on Sundays and live however they want on the weekends.

Or Churches just outright ignore passages like 1 Corinthians 5 and Matthew 18, or handle them in a way that is all about the truth, but lacking in grace thus doing damage to the whole congregation.

 

[WIP]

I want to make this clear. I was not suggesting nor would I ever suggest to know about another person's condition or level of Christian maturity. It is not my place to judge another. I will leave that up to the Father.

I have a few questions for you,

1. Has not the Father given authority to Jesus to Judge?
2. What do you do with this Scripture?

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13(ESV)​

Point taken. Thank you for that. But, now a question comes to my mind. Who is "inside the church" and who is not? Is Paul speaking of the church as in the congregation or the church as in the church of Jesus Christ? If the latter, then again, I would question whether anyone is qualified to make that judgment because none is righteous.

 

[WIP]

I want to make this clear. I was not suggesting nor would I ever suggest to know about another person's condition or level of Christian maturity. It is not my place to judge another. I will leave that up to the Father.

Oh Wip, I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were. Certainly, NOT.

I just didn't think Edward was speaking about "claimers" but more about people like me.

I too must apologize. I did not mean to come off so harsh. I was short on time and posted quickly without proofreading.

 

[WIP]

Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you

Within the church we are to judge a person's behaviors and those behaviors infecting others in the church. We are not to judge their salvation.

With this I can agree.

 

[P31Woman]

Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you

Within the church we are to judge a person's behaviors and those behaviors infecting others in the church. We are not to judge their salvation.

With this I can agree.

Add another yes vote.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Point taken. Thank you for that.

I am glad you took it well, my hope was not to come off as abrasive and argumentative, my hope is to be faithful to Scripture and inspire the same in others.

But, now a question comes to my mind. Who is "inside the church" and who is not? Is Paul speaking of the church as in the congregation or the church as in the church of Jesus Christ?

This is a great question, and isn't fully revealed unless you examine a different translation or view the original language.

For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Are you not to judge those inside? 1 Corinthians 5:12(NET)

The word ἐκκλησίᾳ (Church, assembly) is not found in the passage, but he merely says τοὺς ἔσω or to translate it, "those within." Therefore, it is simply those who are apparent of the outward congregation, those who come to the assembly, but may not actually be apart of the universal Church.

If the latter, then again, I would question whether anyone is qualified to make that judgment because none is righteous.

And now we are coming to see what is meant a bit more clearly, disassociation with fellowship because of behavior is not the ultimate judgement, but is to protect the congregation, because bad company ruins good morals.

 

[WIP]

Sort of like a lump of leavening, right?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Sort of like a lump of leavening, right?

A little leaven, leavens the whole lump. Indeed.

 

[farouk]

Claiming to be Christian does not make one Christian. Claiming to be a believer does not make one a believer. Claiming to follow Christ does not make one a follower. Claiming to be born again does not make one born again. Claiming to be saved does not make one saved. My opinion.

Agreed. But is it instantaneous, or a renewing of the heart is needed first before one's name can written into the book of life?

We are made just before God instantaneously. (justification) Our process of sanctification then begins as we grow in Christ likeness. When we go to heaven glorification will occur when we go to heaven.

Eph 2:8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, we are already God's children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is.

P31Woman:

Good post; yes, this is how I would see it.

Blessings.

 

[Atonement]

Hi Atonement,

I am a pointer to texts, none of these ideas that I am coming up with are from my own construction and thoughts, but rather are an attempt to bring out what Jesus our Lord must have meant. That just as surely as he wished to grant assurance in many places, he also said many hard things that a lot of people will not like to hear. Do we then move to what is practical, what is pragmatic? Do we simply say, "Doulos, stop quoting the hard sayings of Jesus, talk about how Jesus' yolk is easy and his burden is light, surely it's really that easy."

Many want their ears tickled, and are we loving enough to tell them the truth (which love delights in) or would we rather just build them and make them believe that following Jesus and being a Christian is really that easy and thus betray the teachings of Jesus on the cost of being his disciple.

Also, who here has come out and told me that they are questioning their salvation? Surely, if someone came out and confessed that I would have plenty of God-breathed Scriptures that give them assurance that God will finish the work they started in him, and that we don't walk this difficult life alone, indeed the fellow-ship of Jesus suffering will be one of the deepest ways in which we connect with him.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

Greetings to you on this wonderfully blessed day

The Scripture that you have been referring and emphasizing on about, the "hard way" vs. the "narrow path" is not relating to the original message of this topic. The story of the Tower of Babel was man's way of trying to reach up to God, thus it has been passed down through the ages of man trying to reach God through Paganism, Judaism and other religions. This was the same in Jesus' day. What Jesus was basically saying in the passage (Matthew 7:14) that you keep emphasizing on; was that He was the narrow way (the only way) to God; and this would ultimately be through His Death, Burial and Resurrection. This is now God reaching down to us (rather than us reaching up to Him). This is confirmed by the very next verse when Jesus emphasizes that we need to beware of false prophets and that we would know them by their fruit. This is in No Way talking about His Salvation, and it being hard to obtain His Salvation.

The Christian life is hard, and we need to be taking up our Cross daily and walking in the Spirit. Serving others through love and in humbleness. Many fail in their walk with God which is why Paul emphasizes that we need to keep running the race and endure until the end Hebrews 12:1, 2 Timothy 4:7-8, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 2 Timothy 2:5, Acts 20:24, Philippians 3:12-14, Galatians 5:7 - As we can see Paul was very clear about this and wanted the Church to know that it will be difficult to obtain (to keep going), especially when our friends, family, spouse, kids, coworkers, boss etc; are all weighing heavy on our shoulders. This does not include our political rights that we're facing as Christians, the persecution of the Church on a Global scale.

The topic at hand was a simple one - So do you think that the moment that you say the sinners prayer that your name is written in the book of life? Just like that, instantly?

I have provided Scripture about this on this thread (Page 2 #25)

I understand that you want to be heard and voice your opinion. You have every right to do so and I would never tell anyone not to post there thoughts. But being mature spiritually, we should also know when we should restrain ourselves in case we cause a stumbling block in someone's faith.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]

I do not wish to get into a debate with anyone (and I won't , simply because this is an area in which my faith is fragile and has been the cause of much doubt and confusion for me)

This quote above alone should have been enough, to let it go - to restrain ourselves, and/or take the idea of this theology about what you may or may not believe what the Scripture Matthew 7:14 is referring to in the Apologetics & Theology section. It breaks my heart to see that we have someone here who's faith is fragile and they have to read this thread in the General forum. All I ask, is that you and all of us (myself included), be alert to those around us, because our post(s) impact peoples lives.

I hope you have a very blessed day
God Bless you brother

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Greetings to you on this wonderfully blessed day

Greetings to you as well brother!

The Scripture that you have been referring and emphasizing on about, the "hard way" vs. the "narrow path" is not relating to the original message of this topic. The story of the Tower of Babel was man's way of trying to reach up to God, thus it has been passed down through the ages of man trying to reach God through Paganism, Judaism and other religions.

I have to disagree with this assessment.

Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.” Genesis 11:4(ESV)

The people were wanting to:

1. Make a tower with it's top in the heavens, this is referring to the sky.
2. Make a name for themselves. (they weren't seeking God, they were seeking to exalt themselves)
3. To avoid being dispersed.

Nothing in the text to make on believe they were trying to reach up to God, this is just a famous Sunday School teaching to try to argue against works righteousness.

This was the same in Jesus' day. What Jesus was basically saying in the passage (Matthew 7:14) that you keep emphasizing on; was that He was the narrow way (the only way) to God; and this would ultimately be through His Death, Burial and Resurrection. This is now God reaching down to us (rather than us reaching up to Him). This is confirmed by the very next verse when Jesus emphasizes that we need to beware of false prophets and that we would know them by their fruit. This is in No Way talking about His Salvation, and it being hard to obtain His Salvation.

I have to greatly disagree with this assessment here, especially when it comes to saying, "this is in no way talking about his salvation, it being hard to obtain his salvation."

This context isn't the best to examine the text as it is a solitary teaching with no noticeable relation to the flow of the discourse. However, let's examine Luke's account:

He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:22-24(ESV)

In Luke 13, the disciples ask Jesus this question: "Lord, will those who are SAVED be few?" This is obviously setting the state for a question about salvation. Jesus then, responds with a very similar statement to Matthew 7:13-14, where he says: "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." The Greek word for "Strive" here is Ἀγωνίζεσθε and it means to struggle, it is used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25 to describe an athlete attempting to win a race.

To say it's been limited to simply his death, burial and resurrection here, as if other paths have been eliminated and now there is only a narrow truth and way to get to the gate is not consistent with the language used, nor the emphasis found in the Greek discourse that highlights the difficulty of the road and entrance to the gate.

The Christian life is hard, and we need to be taking up our Cross daily and walking in the Spirit. Serving others through love and in humbleness. Many fail in their walk with God which is why Paul emphasizes that we need to keep running the race and endure until the end Hebrews 12:1, 2 Timothy 4:7-8, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 2 Timothy 2:5, Acts 20:24, Philippians 3:12-14, Galatians 5:7 - As we can see Paul was very clear about this and wanted the Church to know that it will be difficult to obtain (to keep going), especially when our friends, family, spouse, kids, coworkers, boss etc; are all weighing heavy on our shoulders. This does not include our political rights that we're facing as Christians, the persecution of the Church on a Global scale.

Yes, I agree. Where you err is disassociating all of these words with salvation, the one who endures to the end will be saved.

The topic at hand was a simple one - So do you think that the moment that you say the sinners prayer that your name is written in the book of life? Just like that, instantly?

I have provided Scripture about this on this thread (Page 2 #25)

I understand that you want to be heard and voice your opinion. You have every right to do so and I would never tell anyone not to post there thoughts. But being mature spiritually, we should also know when we should restrain ourselves in case we cause a stumbling block in someone's faith.

I do not view it as a disservice to tell people of the difficulties of being a disciple of Jesus, Jesus himself who is more wise and spiritually mature than both of us put together (and then some) had no problem with this. In fact I think we greatly err when we falsely tell people that all they need to pray a prayer and they are sealed into the kingdom guaranteed, without speaking about the necessity to endure to the end.

This quote above alone should have been enough, to let it go - to restrain ourselves, and/or take the idea of this theology about what you may or may not believe what the Scripture Matthew 7:14 is referring to in the Apologetics & Theology section. It breaks my heart to see that we have someone here who's faith is fragile and they have to read this thread in the General forum. All I ask, is that you and all of us (myself included), be alert to those around us, because our post(s) impact peoples lives.

Well, all they have to do really is go open their Bible to generally any place in the gospels and listen to what our Lord has REALLY said.

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:13-14

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” Matthew 7:26-27

So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Love delights in the TRUTH my friend, and these were not spoken simply to the spiritually mature, but is said in many cases to the many crowds that come around Jesus. Following Jesus is difficult and indeed we will have many trials and tribulations in the world, but we should take heart for Jesus has overcome the world! And that our current sufferings are not worth comparing to the future glory that is to be had.

I hope you have a very blessed day
God Bless you brother

You as well.

 

[farouk]

He definitely had a very close and personal relationship with God. Makes one think they could at least do more to be like that.
My dad used to say he'd probably feel ashamed in heaven standing next to someone with his kind of testimony. And my dad I consider to have been a very strong Christian, with a sound testimony. I used to think that I'd at least like to do as well as my dad did.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

Yes, the life of George Mueller is all about what true separation from the world's methods and humble, prayerful dependence on the Lord is all about. (It's not the Fundie thing of trying to police other Christians because of their shoes, music style, etc etc, or what have you.)

Blessings.

 

[Atonement]

Greetings to you as well brother!

I have to disagree with this assessment.

Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.” Genesis 11:4(ESV)

The people were wanting to:

1. Make a tower with it's top in the heavens, this is referring to the sky.
2. Make a name for themselves. (they weren't seeking God, they were seeking to exalt themselves)
3. To avoid being dispersed.

Nothing in the text to make on believe they were trying to reach up to God, this is just a famous Sunday School teaching to try to argue against works righteousness.

I have to greatly disagree with this assessment here, especially when it comes to saying, "this is in no way talking about his salvation, it being hard to obtain his salvation."

This context isn't the best to examine the text as it is a solitary teaching with no noticeable relation to the flow of the discourse. However, let's examine Luke's account:

He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:22-24(ESV)

In Luke 13, the disciples ask Jesus this question: "Lord, will those who are SAVED be few?" This is obviously setting the state for a question about salvation. Jesus then, responds with a very similar statement to Matthew 7:13-14, where he says: "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." The Greek word for "Strive" here is Ἀγωνίζεσθε and it means to struggle, it is used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25 to describe an athlete attempting to win a race.

To say it's been limited to simply his death, burial and resurrection here, as if other paths have been eliminated and now there is only a narrow truth and way to get to the gate is not consistent with the language used, nor the emphasis found in the Greek discourse that highlights the difficulty of the road and entrance to the gate.

The Christian life is hard, and we need to be taking up our Cross daily and walking in the Spirit. Serving others through love and in humbleness. Many fail in their walk with God which is why Paul emphasizes that we need to keep running the race and endure until the end Hebrews 12:1, 2 Timothy 4:7-8, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 2 Timothy 2:5, Acts 20:24, Philippians 3:12-14, Galatians 5:7 - As we can see Paul was very clear about this and wanted the Church to know that it will be difficult to obtain (to keep going), especially when our friends, family, spouse, kids, coworkers, boss etc; are all weighing heavy on our shoulders. This does not include our political rights that we're facing as Christians, the persecution of the Church on a Global scale.

Yes, I agree. Where you err is disassociating all of these words with salvation, the one who endures to the end will be saved.

The topic at hand was a simple one - So do you think that the moment that you say the sinners prayer that your name is written in the book of life? Just like that, instantly?

I have provided Scripture about this on this thread (Page 2 #25)

I understand that you want to be heard and voice your opinion. You have every right to do so and I would never tell anyone not to post there thoughts. But being mature spiritually, we should also know when we should restrain ourselves in case we cause a stumbling block in someone's faith.

I do not view it as a disservice to tell people of the difficulties of being a disciple of Jesus, Jesus himself who is more wise and spiritually mature than both of us put together (and then some) had no problem with this. In fact I think we greatly err when we falsely tell people that all they need to pray a prayer and they are sealed into the kingdom guaranteed, without speaking about the necessity to endure to the end.

This quote above alone should have been enough, to let it go - to restrain ourselves, and/or take the idea of this theology about what you may or may not believe what the Scripture Matthew 7:14 is referring to in the Apologetics & Theology section. It breaks my heart to see that we have someone here who's faith is fragile and they have to read this thread in the General forum. All I ask, is that you and all of us (myself included), be alert to those around us, because our post(s) impact peoples lives.

Well, all they have to do really is go open their Bible to generally any place in the gospels and listen to what our Lord has REALLY said.

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:13-14

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” Matthew 7:26-27

So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Love delights in the TRUTH my friend, and these were not spoken simply to the spiritually mature, but is said in many cases to the many crowds that come around Jesus. Following Jesus is difficult and indeed we will have many trials and tribulations in the world, but we should take heart for Jesus has overcome the world! And that our current sufferings are not worth comparing to the future glory that is to be had.

I hope you have a very blessed day
God Bless you brother

You as well.

It's fine that you disagree with me, I'm not going to debate this issue. I was hoping you would pay attention to the spirit.. But I see you rather be right, and you rather be heard, but not rather reflect on the possible damage this could be causing to the faith of others.. This is very sad to see!

 

[About the Son of God]

Well this passage is Isaiah 18:7 in the LXX, and the word is usually translated "tall" but the literal thought seems to be "stretched out." Which makes sense as the Hebrew word משׁך isn't most readily used for "tall," as only twice in this very chapter do translators render it this way, usually it means to "stretch out" or most commonly "to drag."

I'm sorry, but I didn't mean to bring the passage up to discuss the Hebrew.
I brought it up, as I could have ... say Homer's Odessy, because it happens to have the Greek word in it, spelled in the same way -- such that even a beginner in Koine Greek could see by inspection that it's the same word.
Are you trying to tell me what the Hebrew word meant, or are you saying the word τε-θλιμ-μέν-η means "stretched out"?

I think ultimately though, they used a rare word in the LXX, because they personally had trouble interpreting the Hebrew word, as much of it depends on etymological speculation. Though, it seems to be describing people that are tall with bald smooth heads perhaps?

OK, it doesn't really matter to me; but let's just accept your explanation.
In that case, Matthew 7:14 might translate: Matth 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and stretched-out is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

For the Greek word is the same in both passages *regardless* of the Hebrew.

But, I'll give you a different suggestion; from my thinking -- tall people are intimidating; eg: oppressors.
Ever been looked down upon? ;)

In several places, the spelling: θλιμ exists; and it seems that "te" of Matthew 7:14 could be a temporal augment; so that since θλιμ crudely means "oppress", so could τε-θλιμ-μεν-ου

For what reason, though, do you say it represents "persecution"?
What specific persecution?

I say this because of the use of this word in other places in the NT. Where the most common translation of the word is "afflicted."

since it is righteous in the sight of God to pay back those who are afflicting you with affliction, (2 Th 1:6).

I see.
But if the passage in Isaiah doesn't also mean "afflicted"; then it seems clear the word doesn't always mean afflicted (eg: when spelled as a perfect participle). So, there has to be a principle to determine when a word is to be interpreted one way or the other; or else, the lexicons are being rather vague.

22.21 θλίβωb: to cause someone to suffer trouble or hardship—‘to cause trouble to, to persecute, to cause to suffer hardship.

I don't use lexicon's much; in apologetics, it often becomes a my-lexicon, vs. your-lexicon argument (or they'll throw up hands -- and say over my head!)

But -- even a simple person can play "where's waldo"(TM) with a Greek word, given a concordance of places to look; and links. I like that better -- it shares more with everyone.

I understand how the 1st person singular verb is cited in a lexicon, and that Mu changes to Beta (or vice versa depending on which grammar theory you use.) but I don't think that's helpful to most novices who aren't advanced in the Study of Greek. It's perhaps easy to forget that all of us are here to share from greatest to least.

As I said, I like to work problems by examples; and I routinely spend hours comparing every conjugation of a word against which connotation it has that all translations show examples of.

We're in a situation where the lexicon is at odds with translation.
Quoting me a Lexicion does not impress me; I think you or I are far *more* likely figure out the tie-in between Matthew 7:14 and oppression by studying all the places the word is used, rather than quoting someone else. ( I'm not saying do all steps in highly technical posts....)

Well, I don't necessarily agree first of all, that Jesus was talking about the topic of "what do I have to do to be saved," he is more so talking about true and genuine obedience from the heart, rather than the hypocritical expression of obedience demonstrated by the Pharisees.

I was being generous; for the topic of the Thread is violated if he isn't talking about entering the kingdom.
People's opinions differ on this point, so I simply didn't wish to cut you off .. but if you insist; we can drop the subject altogether. Review the OP.

Jesus is speaking about the difficulty of the path that leads to life, and quite literally the imagery is a narrow passage way where you are pressed in on all sides, "constrained" and the gate is narrow and small as well.

OK, show me a clear example of where τεθλιμμένη means a narrow passage way.
So far, you are showing that it means "afflicted" which is a whole lot different than "narrow".
I can agree with afflicted; I can even reconcile that with "My yoke is easy and my burden light" from Allen...
But, I am not seeing clearly where you get your idea from.

Accenting the difficulties, as the word τεθλιμμένη is emphasized in the discourse and I personally make an interpretive decision based off of it's uses elsewhere that this imagery perhaps represents the persecution and difficulty a Christian will encounter along the path that leads to life, rather than the ease of the spacious road.

Now, we're back to affliction; and not narrowness.
Are ancient robbers more likely to attack a caravan on a narrow pass, or something? What's the connection?

All I can see in Matthew 5:12 that Jesus was calling his disciples "prophets"; so something about "prophets" is the context; and then there is an inclusio from Matthew 5:17 to Matthew 7:12 which guarantees all those intermediate chapters and verses are a coherent single teaching;
...
And then comes Matthew 7:14.
...
The entire discourse of the sermon on the mount *Explicitly* ends at Matthew 7:28.

-------- Ok, now rewind; let's check the OP topic ----

Hence, I know the topic of salvation is implicitly being spoken about (Matthew 7:21).

Inference: If one doesn't have a true heart -- they don't have true faith. There are things we do for salvation, even if they don't earn salvation. (See my previous posts.)

-------- End verification ------ Begin hypothesis -----

The only connection (contextual) that I see between affliction and the way of holiness -- it the teachers of that way.

eg: before the time of the resurrection -- it is the fact that Pharisees have come into the chair of Moses and are placing heavy burdens on the people.

It is the father's of those *same* Pharisees who murdered the prophets of old; and this murdering is happening/will happen again --- Matthew 5:11,12, eg: Notice: Jesus is implicitly referencing the Pharisees of "today".

This brings me back to Allenwynne -- who quoted "My yoke is easy, and my burden light"; Did you look at the context his statement showed up in?

Coincidence?

Let's all break the bread of the word together, and feast on the thoughts therein.
Your brother in Christ.

 

[farouk]

Just to say that I am having difficulty following some of the discussion on the thread.

My theology, such as it is, would probably be based on an understanding that the believer's whole security and trust in the person and work of the Lord Jesus is all of grace (Ephesians 2.8-9).

I like the lines:

'All of grace, yes, grace surpassing,
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.
Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me.'

(Not sure who wrote this.)

Blessings.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It's fine that you disagree with me, I'm not going to debate this issue. I was hoping you would pay attention to the spirit.. But I see you rather be right, and you rather be heard, but not rather reflect on the possible damage this could be causing to the faith of others.. This is very sad to see!

Hi Atonement,

I'm sorry, but these words are quite rude and offensive for a few reasons.

1. You assume that you're hearing the Spirit, and I am not on the matter. As if I just need to assent to what you say and I am in alignment with the Spirit.
2. You assume that I replied back in disagreement merely so I can be "right." I did so rather, because I think you are wrongfully correcting me.
3. I've done damage to no ones faith, I reached out to questdriven to assure her I meant no such thing, and she replied back that it was fine.

Your attempts to correct my behavior are submitted under the authority of the Word which I find to be in disagreement with what you said, though I appreciated your kind tone earlier, it almost seems to be a guise now that I disagreed.

If you think quoting some of the more "hard sayings" of Jesus is damaging to some, then I suggest you reconsider your concept of what it is to be a disciple and Christian. I for one will not shy away from such things, and I say this not to try and assert some kind of superiority, but rather I would prefer the humble position. Which would be to point to Jesus' way and submit to that as truth, not twist his words to support my own view.

I am not necessarily saying you are absolutely twisting his words, but you are certainly changing his message to reflect something clearly not implied. Perhaps you'd think it more loving if I didn't call out my disagreement so strongly, but as I said earlier, love delights in the truth.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Just to say that I am having difficulty following some of the discussion on the thread.

My theology, such as it is, would probably be based on an understanding that the believer's whole security and trust in the person and work of the Lord Jesus is all of grace (Ephesians 2.8-9).

I like the lines:

'All of grace, yes, grace surpassing,
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.
Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me.'

(Not sure who wrote this.)

Blessings.

Why build a theology off of one Scripture? Why not build your theology off of ALL the revealed Scripture and attempt to come to the most balanced and Biblical theology that takes into account every passage?

Food for thought.

 

[farouk]

Just to say that I am having difficulty following some of the discussion on the thread.

My theology, such as it is, would probably be based on an understanding that the believer's whole security and trust in the person and work of the Lord Jesus is all of grace (Ephesians 2.8-9).

I like the lines:

'All of grace, yes, grace surpassing,
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.
Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me.'

(Not sure who wrote this.)

Blessings.

Why build a theology off of one Scripture? Why not build your theology off of ALL the revealed Scripture and attempt to come to the most balanced and Biblical theology that takes into account every passage?

Food for thought.

Doulos Iesou:

I won't respond to the criticism, but invite you instead to tell me what you mean specifically? (in terms of a simple trust in what Ephesians 2.8-9 says).

Blessings.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'm sorry, but I didn't mean to bring the passage up to discuss the Hebrew.
I brought it up, as I could have ... say Homer's Odessy, because it happens to have the Greek word in it, spelled in the same way -- such that even a beginner in Koine Greek could see by inspection that it's the same word.
Are you trying to tell me what the Hebrew word meant, or are you saying the word τε-θλιμ-μέν-η means "stretched out"?

I think we've had an instance of miscommunication, as will be spelled out later in this post in more detail.

You see, I don't think we should just cut and paste the meaning of words from one context to another, but realize that context is king when referencing how a word is used. In Isaiah 18:7 we have an entirely different context, more at play in the translation as both the Greek and Hebrew words should be brought into consideration to come to the most accurate conclusion. Most translations render it "tall," which is what the imagery of "stretched out" was meaning to convey.

OK, it doesn't really matter to me; but let's just accept your explanation.
In that case, Matthew 7:14 might translate: Matth 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and stretched-out is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You seem to disregarding a few things.

1. My translation of Isaiah 18:7 took into account the Hebrew and the context.
2. That words have a semantic range, which of course you know means that given the context they can carry any number of different senses.
3. I don't believe we should directly input the meaning of a word from one passage into another, without first examining that context.

It seems you are arguing for the idea of the ultimate root meaning of this word being an oppressor, and this is the reason why I addressed the Hebrew (which you seem to be avoiding). This word was chosen by the translators of the LXX to represent that original Hebrew word, and therefore this would shouldn't take on a life of it's own (though it does bring some new information to the text and the way the original Hebrew is viewed) it ultimately is subservient to the Hebraic meaning.

I wouldn't say "stretched out" either in Matthew 7:14, I would use the word "constrained" to represent what the text is saying.

I see.
But if the passage in Isaiah doesn't also mean "afflicted"; then it seems clear the word doesn't always mean afflicted (eg: when spelled as a perfect participle). So, there has to be a principle to determine when a word is to be interpreted one way or the other; or else, the lexicons are being rather vague.

Yes, it's called CONTEXT. I am not arguing for an universal definition of the word, while I think the word generally illustrates an idea, that plays out differently in certain contexts.

I don't use lexicon's much; in apologetics, it often becomes a my-lexicon, vs. your-lexicon argument (or they'll throw up hands -- and say over my head!)

Well, it's not about Lexicon's being invalid, but it is about how you use them. I didn't mean to cite that Lexicon as to be the end all be all authority on the matter, however it does show that, my position doesn't just come out of left field, it is noted among Lexicographers specific to this usage even.

But -- even a simple person can play "where's waldo"(TM) with a Greek word, given a concordance of places to look; and links. I like that better -- it shares more with everyone.

I understand how the 1st person singular verb is cited in a lexicon, and that Mu changes to Beta (or vice versa depending on which grammar theory you use.) but I don't think that's helpful to most novices who aren't advanced in the Study of Greek. It's perhaps easy to forget that all of us are here to share from greatest to least.

Granted, though you came out asking some pretty technical questions.

As I said, I like to work problems by examples; and I routinely spend hours comparing every conjugation of a word against which connotation it has that all translations show examples of.

We're in a situation where the lexicon is at odds with translation.
Quoting me a Lexicion does not impress me; I think you or I are far *more* likely figure out the tie-in between Matthew 7:14 and oppression by studying all the places the word is used, rather than quoting someone else. ( I'm not saying do all steps in highly technical posts....)

Well, if you'll notice my response to you was not the sum total of what I had to say on the matter, when I in fact in previous posts addressed the word's usage in other contexts, if you'll go through many of my posts you will see evidence of this in fact. So you and I are in agreement on this.

I think drawing on the instance of of the perfect participle form of the word θλίβω will be a very limiting study, as we only have the instance of Isaiah 18:7 to draw off of, which is in my opinion a rather technical and differing instance.

Let me be generous here for a moment, I see much merit to the idea of "oppression" being within the root meaning of this word. Let me demonstrate why I think this:

And he told his disciples to have a boat ready for him because of the crowd, lest they crush him, Mark 3:9(ESV)

Literally, the thought is that the crowd might not "press upon him." This I believe is a better and more accurate distinction given other uses of the word, such as:

We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 2 Corinthians 4:8(ESV)

Afflicted I believe can be maybe perhaps even more accurately translated "oppressed" while the Greek word στενοχωρούμενοι is rendered "crushed" in this instance, illustrating that while the believer is pressed upon on all sides, that they are caught in a narrow place due to all the oppression they face, yet are not utterly crushed.

This is what is similar to the imagery I believe is conveyed in Matthew 7:14.

OK, show me a clear example of where τεθλιμμένη means a narrow passage way.
So far, you are showing that it means "afflicted" which is a whole lot different than "narrow".
I can agree with afflicted; I can even reconcile that with "My yoke is easy and my burden light" from Allen...
But, I am not seeing clearly where you get your idea from.

What I said above should be sufficient, but if you have more questions we can discuss further, though I think we agree more than we realize.

Now, we're back to affliction; and not narrowness.
Are ancient robbers more likely to attack a caravan on a narrow pass, or something? What's the connection?

All I can see in Matthew 5:12 that Jesus was calling his disciples "prophets"; so something about "prophets" is the context; and then there is an inclusio from Matthew 5:17 to Matthew 7:12 which guarantees all those intermediate chapters and verses are a coherent single teaching;
...
And then comes Matthew 7:14.
...
The entire discourse of the sermon on the mount *Explicitly* ends at Matthew 7:28.

It's not simply "narrowness" please see above.

-------- Ok, now rewind; let's check the OP topic ----

Hence, I know the topic of salvation is implicitly being spoken about (Matthew 7:21).

Inference: If one doesn't have a true heart -- they don't have true faith. There are things we do for salvation, even if they don't earn salvation. (See my previous posts.)

-------- End verification ------ Begin hypothesis -----

I think it's important to note all the themes going through the sermon on the mount, I believe that if you do this text fits better in a section about actually submitting to the Lordship of Jesus rather than salvation being key here. As he builds on that text to conclude his discourse by using the illustration of the wise and foolish men who build their houses.

The only connection (contextual) that I see between affliction and the way of holiness -- it the teachers of that way.

eg: before the time of the resurrection -- it is the fact that Pharisees have come into the chair of Moses and are placing heavy burdens on the people.

It is the father's of those *same* Pharisees who murdered the prophets of old; and this murdering is happening/will happen again --- Matthew 5:11,12, eg: Notice: Jesus is implicitly referencing the Pharisees of "today".

This brings me back to Allenwynne -- who quoted "My yoke is easy, and my burden light"; Did you look at the context his statement showed up in?

Coincidence?

Let's all break the bread of the word together, and feast on the thoughts therein.
Your brother in Christ.

I'm curious, what do you believe then is the ultimate meaning of the passage Matthew 7:13-14?

Blessing in Christ,
Servant of Jesus