Is Jesus considered to be God?

[Constitutionalist]

I do not see how this thread can be discussed utilizing apologetics, considering the (TOS) rules will not allow observation of arian, oneness, or even apostolic oneness views of diety. While the opening thread has great merit, there can be no true delving into the study of this belief. It would have been a good one to dig into. JMHO

Such topics can be discussed, and indeed they are impossible to avoid in a discussion of the Trinity, but they cannot be forcefully proposed as being truth. The majority of this thread has been discussing the problems with arianism and we haven't even really gotten into Scriptures proving the deity of Jesus. It is a fine line but the problem is that we have had many come in who are very hostile to trinitarianism, or any other Christian doctrine, and come in with guns blazing. I think that the point is to focus discussions regarding Christian doctrine on the positives (Scriptural proofs, etc.) rather than allowing for bashing sessions. I know what I'm trying to say but it's not quite coming out. Coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

Blessings,

I see what you are saying, I view "apologetics" in a differant light than the other forums within this site, while all the other forums edify ones faith with believers and can snugly fit within "TOS" rules. I do not see how true "apologetics" can fit within the "TOS" set forth. I do in fact believe that there should be "rules of conduct" within "apologetics", but I do not see how any one "creed" can dictate "apologetics".

Just my opinion, and it is time to caffienate myself as well.

Blessings

 

[follower of Christ]

You know since I have heard some controversies concerning this statement. I believe that Jesus Christ God. Not just the Son of God but He is God that came in the flesh.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

As we continue to read on in that chapter we see that this scripture is talking about Jesus Christ..

What do you think?

I think I agree that Jesus is God.




The Trinity

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that Jesus IS God and to show that the Holy Spirit IS God and therefore the Trinity teaching is scriptural truth.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Is Jesus God ?

Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If Jesus isnt God, why doesnt He correct Thomas here as He had corrected others ?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
(Joh 20:28 MKJV)

If Jesus isnt His own person in the Godhead, then He must be a liar here because He shows that the FATHER knows the day and hour here, but the SON does not.

But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
(Mark 13:32 LITV)

*IF* Jesus isnt His own person then He would HAVE to know the day and hour and thus He would be a LIAR for saying that ONLY His Father knew, NOT the Son.


1.5

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
(Colossians 2:9 EMTV)


Godhead
G2320
??????
theot?s
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead


G2320
??????
theot?s
theh-ot'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.

REGARDLESS of how the word theotes was RENDERED, its MEANING and INTENT is 'divinity'...ie Jesus Christ is DIVINE...ie a DEITY....ie GOD.
If Jesus IS God yet Jesus does NOT KNOW the day and hour of His return but ONLY the Father does (aka GOD) then there MUST BE some DISTINCTION between them...even tho BOTH ARE God.


2.0
Is the Holy Spirit 'God' ?

scripture shows that the Spirit of GOD came down upon Christ...

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him.
(Mat 3:16 EMTV)

And Luke shows that this IS the Holy Spirit.

and the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, "You are My beloved Son; in You I have found delight."
(Luk 3:22 EMTV)

Thus the evidence shows that the 'Spirit of God' and the 'Holy Spirit' are one and the same.

3.0
And here we tie it all together.

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."
(Matthew 3:16-17 EMTV)

1. Jesus, the Son who is called 'Mighty God' in Isaiah.
2. The Spirit descending in the form of a dove, who is the Spirit OF God.
3. The Father speaking from heaven, obvious enough.

 

[Free]

I do not see how this thread can be discussed utilizing apologetics, considering the (TOS) rules will not allow observation of arian, oneness, or even apostolic oneness views of diety. While the opening thread has great merit, there can be no true delving into the study of this belief. It would have been a good one to dig into. JMHO

Such topics can be discussed, and indeed they are impossible to avoid in a discussion of the Trinity, but they cannot be forcefully proposed as being truth. The majority of this thread has been discussing the problems with arianism and we haven't even really gotten into Scriptures proving the deity of Jesus. It is a fine line but the problem is that we have had many come in who are very hostile to trinitarianism, or any other Christian doctrine, and come in with guns blazing. I think that the point is to focus discussions regarding Christian doctrine on the positives (Scriptural proofs, etc.) rather than allowing for bashing sessions. I know what I'm trying to say but it's not quite coming out. Coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

Blessings,

I see what you are saying, I view "apologetics" in a differant light than the other forums within this site, while all the other forums edify ones faith with believers and can snugly fit within "TOS" rules. I do not see how true "apologetics" can fit within the "TOS" set forth. I do in fact believe that there should be "rules of conduct" within "apologetics", but I do not see how any one "creed" can dictate "apologetics".

Just my opinion, and it is time to caffienate myself as well.

Blessings

I do agree. Apologetics requires open discussion of all the various views. It's just from the history in this forum, the more we let go, the more things get way out of hand with ad hominems and such.

Blessings to you as well.

 

[Drew]

1. Do you believe that all of creation is cursed because of the fall?

Yes.

2. Do you believe that if Christ were fully human he would necessarily be cursed as well?

I believe so. Romans 8:3 tells us that Christ was sent to us in the "likeness of sinful flesh".

3. Do you believe that Christ would need to come from the spiritual realm to avoid this curse?

This is is difficult question to answer. I suspect that I might not share your view of the nature of the "spiritual realm". I think that Christ came from heaven, and I agree that there are "spiritual" powers at work in the world. But you will need to explain more about exactly what you mean by the "spiritual" realm. If you mean "heaven", then I think that Jesus came from heaven. As you know from my answer to point 2, I think that Jesus basically "lowered" himself into a fallen realm, so, in this sense, I do not think he avoided the curse.

4. Do you believe that the spiritual realm is perfect?

Well, I certainly do not believe that heaven is perfect - there are texts which show that evil exists there, too.

 

[Constitutionalist]

Free wrote:
Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

?????? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????????
Paleo hebrew

?????????? ???????????? ???? ???????????? ???????? ??????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? WLC

?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????
Hebrew Bible

?????????? ???????????? ???? ???????????? ???????? ??????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? Masoretic

??? ??????? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? LXX

parvulus enim natus est nobis filius datus est nobis et factus est principatus super umerum eius et vocabitur nomen eius Admirabilis consiliarius Deus fortis Pater futuri saeculi Princeps pacis VUL

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation, All rights reserved Lockman.org:

For [Ki-3588-????]: That, for, when (Short Definition: inasmuch).

A Child [Yeled-3206-?????]: Child, son, boy, youth (Short Definition: boy). Strongs Exhaustive Concordance: Boy, child, fruit, son, young man one. From yalad; something born, i.e. A lad or offspring -- boy, child, fruit, son, young man (one). TWOT Reference: 867B.

Will Be Born, Is Born [Yalad-3205-?????]: To bear, bring forth, beget (Short Definition: bear). Strongs Exhaustive Concordance: bear, beget, birthday, born, make to bring forth children, young, bring up, calve. A primitive root; to bear young; causatively, to beget; medically, to act as midwife; specifically, to show lineage -- bear, beget, birth((-day)), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail(-eth, -ing woman). TWOT Reference: 867.

A Son, Unto Us A Son [Ben-1121-????]: Son (Short Definition: afflicted). Strongs Exhaustive Concordance: afflicted, age, anointed one, appointed to, arrow. From banah; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., (like 'ab, 'ach, etc.)) -- + afflicted, age, (Ahoh-) (Ammon-) (Hachmon-) (Lev-)ite, (anoint-)ed one, appointed to, (+) arrow, (Assyr-) (Babylon-) (Egypt-) (Grec-)ian, one born, bough, branch, breed, + (young) bullock, + (young) calf, X came up in, child, colt, X common, X corn, daughter, X of first, + firstborn, foal, + very fruitful, + postage, X in, + kid, + lamb, (+) man, meet, + mighty, + nephew, old, (+) people, + rebel, + robber, X servant born, X soldier, son, + spark, + steward, + stranger, X surely, them of, + tumultuous one, + valiant(-est), whelp, worthy, young (one), youth. see HEBREW banah, see HEBREW 'ab, see HEBREW 'ach. TWOT Reference: 254.

Will Be Given, is given [Nathan-5414-Nathan]: To give, put, set (Short Definition: add). Strongs Exhaustive Concordance: Add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, avenge, be healed, bestow. A primitive root; to give, used with greatest latitude of application (put, make, etc.) -- add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, X avenge, X be ((healed)), bestow, bring (forth, hither), cast, cause, charge, come, commit, consider, count, + cry, deliver (up), direct, distribute, do, X doubtless, X without fail, fasten, frame, X get, give (forth, over, up), grant, hang (up), X have, X indeed, lay (unto charge, up), (give) leave, lend, let (out), + lie, lift up, make, + O that, occupy, offer, ordain, pay, perform, place, pour, print, X pull, put (forth), recompense, render, requite, restore, send (out), set (forth), shew, shoot forth (up), + sing, + slander, strike, (sub-)mit, suffer, X surely, X take, thrust, trade, turn, utter, + weep, + willingly, + withdraw, + would (to) God, yield. TWOT Reference: 1443.

So far there is nothing to prove or disprove a trinitarian view. So far, all it states is a person will be born and he will be someone's son.

I will break these up as to not use up to much space, and so others may jump in and discuss what we have so far.

Blessings

 

[Yahoshea]

Free wrote:
Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[quote:30hrhrro]?????? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????????
Paleo hebrew

?????????? ???????????? ???? ???????????? ???????? ??????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? WLC

?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????
Hebrew Bible

?????????? ???????????? ???? ???????????? ???????? ??????????? ???????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? Masoretic

??? ??????? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? LXX

parvulus enim natus est nobis filius datus est nobis et factus est principatus super umerum eius et vocabitur nomen eius Admirabilis consiliarius Deus fortis Pater futuri saeculi Princeps pacis VUL

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation, All rights reserved Lockman.org:

For [Ki-3588-????]: That, for, when (Short Definition: inasmuch).

A Child [Yeled-3206-?????]: Child, son, boy, youth (Short Definition: boy). Strongs Exhaustive Concordance: Boy, child, fruit, son, young man one. From yalad; something born, i.e. A lad or offspring -- boy, child, fruit, son, young man (one). TWOT Reference: 867B.

Will Be Born, Is Born [Yalad-3205-?????]: To bear, bring forth, beget (Short Definition: bear). Strongs Exhaustive Concordance: bear, beget, birthday, born, make to bring forth children, young, bring up, calve. A primitive root; to bear young; causatively, to beget; medically, to act as midwife; specifically, to show lineage -- bear, beget, birth((-day)), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail(-eth, -ing woman). TWOT Reference: 867.

A Son, Unto Us A Son [Ben-1121-????]: Son (Short Definition: afflicted). Strongs Exhaustive Concordance: afflicted, age, anointed one, appointed to, arrow. From banah; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., (like 'ab, 'ach, etc.)) -- + afflicted, age, (Ahoh-) (Ammon-) (Hachmon-) (Lev-)ite, (anoint-)ed one, appointed to, (+) arrow, (Assyr-) (Babylon-) (Egypt-) (Grec-)ian, one born, bough, branch, breed, + (young) bullock, + (young) calf, X came up in, child, colt, X common, X corn, daughter, X of first, + firstborn, foal, + very fruitful, + postage, X in, + kid, + lamb, (+) man, meet, + mighty, + nephew, old, (+) people, + rebel, + robber, X servant born, X soldier, son, + spark, + steward, + stranger, X surely, them of, + tumultuous one, + valiant(-est), whelp, worthy, young (one), youth. see HEBREW banah, see HEBREW 'ab, see HEBREW 'ach. TWOT Reference: 254.

Will Be Given, is given [Nathan-5414-Nathan]: To give, put, set (Short Definition: add). Strongs Exhaustive Concordance: Add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, avenge, be healed, bestow. A primitive root; to give, used with greatest latitude of application (put, make, etc.) -- add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, X avenge, X be ((healed)), bestow, bring (forth, hither), cast, cause, charge, come, commit, consider, count, + cry, deliver (up), direct, distribute, do, X doubtless, X without fail, fasten, frame, X get, give (forth, over, up), grant, hang (up), X have, X indeed, lay (unto charge, up), (give) leave, lend, let (out), + lie, lift up, make, + O that, occupy, offer, ordain, pay, perform, place, pour, print, X pull, put (forth), recompense, render, requite, restore, send (out), set (forth), shew, shoot forth (up), + sing, + slander, strike, (sub-)mit, suffer, X surely, X take, thrust, trade, turn, utter, + weep, + willingly, + withdraw, + would (to) God, yield. TWOT Reference: 1443.

So far there is nothing to prove or disprove a trinitarian view. So far, all it states is a person will be born and he will be someone's son.

I will break these up as to not use up to much space, and so others may jump in and discuss what we have so far.

Blessings[/quote:30hrhrro]

AAAHHH you stopped at a crucial point. The term "name" in the hebrew is "shem" this term literally means character or reputation. this term is not an identifier. We carry this meaning into English by saying of someone that they have a good name. Not that jones is better then thomas. It is about the persons character or reputation.
Now this verse reads that this child that is born and given with have the character or reputation of the mighty God and ever lasting father ect. This is describing Christ character not his identity.

 

[Yahoshea]

From questions I have asked and posts submitted there seems to be a form of Greek philosophy being presented here. It carries some of the attributes of gnosticism and dualism.
For those unfamiliar with this term, dualism is a Greek Philosophy that states that there are two realms in our existence. The higher scared spiritual realm and the lower fallen natural Earthly realm. This belief degrades the natural or secular realm as lesser in importance and makes the spiritual sacred realm the one to seek.
If you ask the common Christian what could be the highest calling in life, many would answer to be in the ministry or doing work in some sacred capacity. Others would preface answering by asking if they can include their faith in the choices. They have already compartmentalized their secular and sacred worlds in to two separate lives. This separation can sometimes take the form of separating the man himself in the higher soul/spirit man and the lower natural body. This in spite of the fact that all three are to be redeemed. Our so-called lower bodies are changed but we will have them in heaven.
At times the dualist will separate the soul and the spirit and we’ll see the soul as corrupted and the spirit as in a higher plane of existence. They will struggle all their lives to drag their lower soul up to the higher plane of the spirit.
Dualism is a form of Gnosticism. A broader term for this type of philosophy. Gnosticism and dualism are the breeding ground for the concepts of the dual nature of Christ and the Trinity.
Greek philosophy and the Greek way of thinking had its final victory over the Eastern culture about 200AD. Greek thinking philosophers were getting saved and bringing in with them the concepts of these beliefs. Gnostics carried with them a pride in proclaiming a mysterious belief system and having knowledge only they could posses. They had “truths†that went beyond the lower Earthly reason or rational.
Dualists made a clear distinction between the sacred and the secular. Teaching that Christ could not be of the lower Earthly realm because that would indicate he was also fallen. This was based on a belief that everything was fallen in this realm. Even new born children carried the stain of sin even though they had never sinned themselves. This in spite of the fact that God clearly states that the sins of the father would not be passed onto the child.
From the dualists came the belief that Christ could not be human but had to be augmented in some way and the Gnostics could draw a prideful satisfaction from being the ones that had this higher understanding that went beyond the lower Earthly rationale.

All of these philosophical models are foreign to the Hebrew mind and view of the universe. They should be foreign to the Christian that desires to know God and become like him.
God does not live in some separate sacred spiritual realm apart from us. God lives in and through his creation, including man. When Adam was created God breathed the “breath†of life into him. This word breath in the Hebrew carries several meanings in it. It can mean character, life, or guidance. In the case of Adam it is all three. Adam was created with the seeds of God’s character in him. They were immature and not tested but present. He also became a living creature by the breath. Job speaks of the breath returning to God upon death. That breath is the animating force that gives us life. It is part and parcel of God himself. This breath or spirit was established in us to help guide us on our journey through life. Our conscience is a great part of this guiding factor.
The center piece of God’s creation is mankind. All of the Earth and the universe was created to house mankind. It is the place in which we undertake our journey to YHWH. To the Hebrews it has always been about the journey and not necessarily about the destination. The Hebrew word translated commandment literally means directions toward Zion. The Torah was a teaching tool to help us along the way. The commandments sign post on where to travel. The wind/breath is a guiding force to help give us direction. Perhaps we need another trip around the wilderness or another triumph at Jericho. God knows what is best for our personal journey. Dualism attempts to deny us the journey through our natural realm. A journey that God intended to mature us. Dualists teach us to see little or no value in the physical natural realm and to seek a journey in some metaphysical transedental spiritual realm. A realm that does not require the rationale or reason that God built in us. A realm that is shrouded in mystique and guided by mystery. A realm that for the most part separates us from God, with only the occasional visit either way. Instead of God being an EVER PRESENT help in time of need, He is taught to be outside of the realm in which we live and need help.

All of mankind are children of God. Some are more obedient then others. some are lost on their journey. some have purposely avoided the path and sign posts attempting to blaze their own trail. God deals with all of them in personal ways to guide along the path they are on and others to get them back on the right path. some might be experiencing circumstances placed specifically for them and others are just experiencing the circumstances of life. God works for good in all of it.
God desires to live vicariously in and through His creation., specifically humanity. Unlike the created universe we are created in the image of God and after his likeness. We have the emotional structure of God and the ability to sense his presence and guiding breath/wind. We have within us the animating breath of God and the seeds of his character implanted within. God desires to shine through our personalities like the facet of a Gem, each shining forth the character of God through our individual (God created) personalities. When God finished creating man he said “it is goodâ€. The word good in the Hebrew means functional. That potential for functionality still exists in every child born. The fall did not destroy it. sometime after birth the conscious choices of man curtail or limit our functionality. In other words we don’t work like we should within God’s economy. Were we to all work correctly the world would be set right. Were we to all work as the intellegent designer intended things would be different.
Jesus too is a child of God. Different in that he is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God. He is made like his brethren in every way. (human) Jesus never made a choice to stray from the path. This is a magnificent accomplishment for a human. If he was a God it would not be a big deal. To God the life of this man was precious because of his accomplishment. Death reigned over man from Adam to Jesus, but because of willingness of one man righteousness now prevails. We now because of his sacrifice and example have the right to undertake our personal journey and the example to show us how to do it.
In short the fundamentals of dualism sidetrack us into seeking a realm we already dwell in. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is here. Our seeking another place is actually separating us from the Kingdom of God. Instead of seeking with our own knowledge of Good and Evil to find God somewhere else we need to invite more of God into where we are. Accepting the vulnerability required to allow God to live in and through us as the child of God that we all are.
Jesus’ redemptive work gave us a right to travel the path.
Jesus’ example gives us the know how to travel it.

 

[follower of Christ]

Gnosticism and dualism are the breeding ground for the concepts of the dual nature of Christ and the Trinity.

So then you claim that passages showing that Jesus IS God are wrong, then ?

Sorry if WE will continue to accept what clear scriptures show....that Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father IS God.

WHO is this 'Word' that is WITH God and IS God ?
Anyone ?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;

SCripture shows us VERY clearly that Jesus Christ, the Son, IS God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


If Jesus isnt God, why doesnt He correct Thomas here as He had corrected others ?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
(Joh 20:28 MKJV)

Nuff said...

.

 

[Free]

Free wrote:
Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Is that a quote from me?

 

[Free]

For those unfamiliar with this term, dualism is a Greek Philosophy that states that there are two realms in our existence. The higher scared spiritual realm and the lower fallen natural Earthly realm. This belief degrades the natural or secular realm as lesser in importance and makes the spiritual sacred realm the one to seek.

Actually, that would be more Gnostic, not dualistic. In the theological usage, to which you seem to be referring, the term dualism refers to both good and evil being more or less equal forces, eternally opposed and coexisting. It is Gnosticism which says that flesh is bad and spirit is good.

I suppose in a general sense dualism could be used to refer to the compartmentalizing of the sacred and secular that is so common in western Christianity. Is that what you are referring to? It isn't so much that there is a higher and lower in such a view, but rather that God is up there and we are down here, unnecessarily, and unbiblically, creating a division in how God works in the world and what we are to be doing.

Gnosticism and dualism are the breeding ground for the concepts of the dual nature of Christ and the Trinity.

No, that is false and misleading.

Even new born children carried the stain of sin even though they had never sinned themselves. This in spite of the fact that God clearly states that the sins of the father would not be passed onto the child.

Are you referring to this:

Num 14:18 'The LORD is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.'

If he was a God it would not be a big deal.

Failure to understand the doctrine of the Incarnation.

Adam to Jesus, but because of willingness of one man righteousness now prevails. We now because of his sacrifice and example have the right to undertake our personal journey and the example to show us how to do it.

And, in following his example, we must try to live perfect lives so that we can be sacrificed for our sins, according to your position that Jesus was a mere human.

There is a lot that can be said about your post but it is all a distraction from the topic. Suffice to say that in all your talking you have failed to show how the Trinity is either Gnostic or Dualistic.

 

[follower of Christ]

Suffice to say that in all your talking you have failed to show how the Trinity is either Gnostic or Dualistic.

I noticed that a lot of words were posted by Yahoshea but didnt want to make a big deal out of little actually being said.
Ive seen nothing in this thread so far that would even remotely nullify/negate the overwhelming evidence that Jesus Christ is indeed God.

Succinctness is an asset.


.

 

[Yahoshea]

Gnosticism and dualism are the breeding ground for the concepts of the dual nature of Christ and the Trinity.

So then you claim that passages showing that Jesus IS God are wrong, then ?

Sorry if WE will continue to accept what clear scriptures show....that Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father IS God.

WHO is this 'Word' that is WITH God and IS God ?
Anyone ?
[quote:27njmt4h]Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;

SCripture shows us VERY clearly that Jesus Christ, the Son, IS God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


If Jesus isnt God, why doesnt He correct Thomas here as He had corrected others ?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
(Joh 20:28 MKJV)

Nuff said...

.[/quote:27njmt4h]

the verses you quote have been batted around a dozen times. no one is going to agree to an interpretation of those verses without first agreeing on a method of interpretation that all with hold to.
It simply become my interpretation versus yours. In other words one opinion against another. Forums ae notorious for this sort of action. If you would like to discuss those verses submit your method of interpretation to see if I agree with it and then we can proceed. for example When Thomas says "my Lord and my God." How does the culture and mindset of the hebrews effect that verse.

 

[Yahoshea]

And, in following his example, we must try to live perfect lives so that we can be sacrificed for our sins, according to your position that Jesus was a mere human.

Reply -
I have said nothing of the sort. You continually bring this up. I have no clue what you are talking about. Jesus as a man was all the sacrifice needed for our sins. scripture is also clear that the price was made in the flesh denoting humanity. The fact that you believe something else must make you think we all need to be sacrificed in some manner.

There is a lot that can be said about your post but it is all a distraction from the topic. Suffice to say that in all your talking you have failed to show how the Trinity is either Gnostic or Dualistic.[/quote]

One of the main points of gnosticism is the separation of evil and good realms or secular versus sacred realms.
Part of what most Christians believe about the trinity is that Jesus had to be some form of God to be an appropriate sacrifice for our sins. this theory was established by the gnostics around the second century. Jesus could not be of the lower Earthly realm because he could not then be the spotless lamb or an appropriate sacrifice for us. this forced an augmentation of the human Christ into something other then human. as example the empty shell with God inside or the dual nature theory.
These philosophies have been read into scripture by not using any proper interpretation rules. me one reads a scripture in an English translation (which in many cases have bias toward these philosophies) and assume what they read supports their doctrine. They go in not seeking truth but rather seeking proof of their preconceived ideas of doctrine.
I will no longer debate scripture with anyone that will not first engage me in establishing a set of rules by which we will both interpret scripture. If all were going to do is bat about opinions then it is not profitable or even entertaining.

 

[Free]

And, in following his example, we must try to live perfect lives so that we can be sacrificed for our sins, according to your position that Jesus was a mere human.

Reply -
I have said nothing of the sort. You continually bring this up. I have no clue what you are talking about. Jesus as a man was all the sacrifice needed for our sins. scripture is also clear that the price was made in the flesh denoting humanity. The fact that you believe something else must make you think we all need to be sacrificed in some manner.

I know you haven't said anything of the sort. My point all along has been that that is the logical conclusion of your position. You have to show how one creature's sacrifice is greater than another's. You assume that because Jesus was spotless that that makes his sacrifice sufficient for all sins, everywhere, at all times. However, as a mere creature, my point is that that cannot be so.

Part of what most Christians believe about the trinity is that Jesus had to be some form of God to be an appropriate sacrifice for our sins. this theory was established by the gnostics around the second century. Jesus could not be of the lower Earthly realm because he could not then be the spotless lamb or an appropriate sacrifice for us.

And yet, the doctrine of the Trinity does not deny the humanness of Jesus.

this forced an augmentation of the human Christ into something other then human. as example the empty shell with God inside or the dual nature theory.

Surely you're not saying that the Trinity implies that Jesus was an empty shell with God inside, are you?

These philosophies have been read into scripture by not using any proper interpretation rules.

And you think that you know how to interpret Scripture better than the thousands and thousands of scholars since the beginning of Christianity? You think you know the rules and they didn't? They made the rules so as to avoid error and heresy.

me one reads a scripture in an English translation (which in many cases have bias toward these philosophies) and assume what they read supports their doctrine. They go in not seeking truth but rather seeking proof of their preconceived ideas of doctrine.

Again, the presumptuousness. Why is it that you think you are the only one who seeks the truth and doesn't read preconceived ideas into Scripture? Why is it that only you know how to read and interpret Scripture? On what basis can you make such astounding claims? Merely because everyone disagrees with you?

The fact remains that every single person who reads nearly anything, including the Bible, is unbiased. All sorts of experiences and preconceived ideas effect our interpretation. While one should read Scripture and let it speak to them, there is nothing wrong with searching for proof of what they already believe. One just needs to be open to finding something different than what they expected and change their beliefs accordingly.

I will no longer debate scripture with anyone that will not first engage me in establishing a set of rules by which we will both interpret scripture. If all were going to do is bat about opinions then it is not profitable or even entertaining.

And whose rules do you want to use? Yours?

 

[follower of Christ]

the verses you quote have been batted around a dozen times.

Truths should be brought to bear where applicable.
Rejection of those truths by individuals does not negate them.

no one is going to agree to an interpretation of those verses without first agreeing on a method of interpretation that all with hold to.

They say what they say and in a way that is perfectly harmonious with the whole word of God.
Jesus Christ IS God.

It simply become my interpretation versus yours.

No, gent, it doesnt.
That works maybe for a single passage that has some vague intent that has no other support in scripture.
Sorry but the fact that Jesus Christ IS God is a recurring theme that is presented over and again and only the blind, illiterate or those with an agenda could miss that theme.

In other words one opinion against another. Forums ae notorious for this sort of action. If you would like to discuss those verses submit your method of interpretation to see if I agree with it and then we can proceed. for example When Thomas says "my Lord and my God." How does the culture and mindset of the hebrews effect that verse.

Sorry but Thomas' words are only a very small part of the overwhelming data that conclusively proves that Jesus Christ IS God.
Thomas' words concur with scriptures that Jesus IS God. His words are not the only evidence, Im afraid.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

I will no longer debate scripture with anyone that will not first engage me in establishing a set of rules by which we will both interpret scripture. If all were going to do is bat about opinions then it is not profitable or even entertaining.

Ive seen this hundreds of times, gent.
What youre saying in truth is that if you cannot control the conversation by limiting the evidence in whatever way then you dont want to play the game anymore.

Thats fine. Pack your marbles and leave. We'll do fine here as always.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Part of what most Christians believe about the trinity is that Jesus had to be some form of God to be an appropriate sacrifice for our sins. this theory was established by the gnostics around the second century. Jesus could not be of the lower Earthly realm because he could not then be the spotless lamb or an appropriate sacrifice for us. this forced an augmentation of the human Christ into something other then human. as example the empty shell with God inside or the dual nature theory.

All entirely irrelevant, quite frankly.
What gnostics choose to believe has NO bearing on what GODS WORD PROCLAIMS in a very clear and undeniable manner.
Jesus Christ, the Word, the Son of God, IS God.
Scripture makes this VERY clear.

Lets stop concerning ourselves with godless gnostics and what they believe and turn directly to GODS WORD alone in the matter.

.

 

[Yahoshea]

I will no longer debate scripture with anyone that will not first engage me in establishing a set of rules by which we will both interpret scripture. If all were going to do is bat about opinions then it is not profitable or even entertaining.

Ive seen this hundreds of times, gent.
What youre saying in truth is that if you cannot control the conversation by limiting the evidence in whatever way then you dont want to play the game anymore.

Thats fine. Pack your marbles and leave. We'll do fine here as always.

.

Not at all what I am saying but thank you for assuming my motives. --- Funny I thought that was something only God can do. --- Tell me do you often usurp God's position or is this something new?

 

[Yahoshea]

Part of what most Christians believe about the trinity is that Jesus had to be some form of God to be an appropriate sacrifice for our sins. this theory was established by the gnostics around the second century. Jesus could not be of the lower Earthly realm because he could not then be the spotless lamb or an appropriate sacrifice for us. this forced an augmentation of the human Christ into something other then human. as example the empty shell with God inside or the dual nature theory.

All entirely irrelevant, quite frankly.
What gnostics choose to believe has NO bearing on what GODS WORD PROCLAIMS in a very clear and undeniable manner.
Jesus Christ, the Word, the Son of God, IS God.
Scripture makes this VERY clear.

Lets stop concerning ourselves with godless gnostics and what they believe and turn directly to GODS WORD alone in the matter.

Great!!!! Whose interpretation of God's word would you like to turn to?

.

 

[Yahoshea]

For those unfamiliar with this term, dualism is a Greek Philosophy that states that there are two realms in our existence. The higher scared spiritual realm and the lower fallen natural Earthly realm. This belief degrades the natural or secular realm as lesser in importance and makes the spiritual sacred realm the one to seek.

Actually, that would be more Gnostic, not dualistic. In the theological usage, to which you seem to be referring, the term dualism refers to both good and evil being more or less equal forces, eternally opposed and coexisting. It is Gnosticism which says that flesh is bad and spirit is good.

I suppose in a general sense dualism could be used to refer to the compartmentalizing of the sacred and secular that is so common in western Christianity. Is that what you are referring to? It isn't so much that there is a higher and lower in such a view, but rather that God is up there and we are down here, unnecessarily, and unbiblically, creating a division in how God works in the world and what we are to be doing.

Gnosticism and dualism are the breeding ground for the concepts of the dual nature of Christ and the Trinity.

No, that is false and misleading.

Even new born children carried the stain of sin even though they had never sinned themselves. This in spite of the fact that God clearly states that the sins of the father would not be passed onto the child.

Are you referring to this:

Num 14:18 'The LORD is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.'

If he was a God it would not be a big deal.

Failure to understand the doctrine of the Incarnation.

Adam to Jesus, but because of willingness of one man righteousness now prevails. We now because of his sacrifice and example have the right to undertake our personal journey and the example to show us how to do it.

And, in following his example, we must try to live perfect lives so that we can be sacrificed for our sins, according to your position that Jesus was a mere human.

There is a lot that can be said about your post but it is all a distraction from the topic. Suffice to say that in all your talking you have failed to show how the Trinity is either Gnostic or Dualistic.

Free,
You are constantly claiming a status for humanity as mere creatures, equating them to the lambs sacrificed in the OT.
This smells of Gnosticism by saying that nothing of this lower realm could have value. We are all mere creatures.
There is a big difference between the lambs of the OT and Christ. Lambs are not created in the image of God and after His likeness. Of all the things God created he only breathed in the animating breath of himself into the human. There is an order of importance in creation. Humanity is the centerpiece of God’s creation. All other aspects of creation play a supporting role.
The sacrifice of a supporting actor would not be enough. A rock a slug or a lamb are not enough, however if one sacrifices the very fulfillment of that creation and purpose for it then that is something else all together. The highest point of God’s creation and the purpose for it sacrificed for the rest. Greater love has no man but that he lay his life down for his fellow man. No man had greater love and was willingly sacrificed. That is a precious cost.
This is not even considering that this was God’s only “begotten†son.
You have presupposed that because of the fall all of humanity is born cursed and therefore nothing good could come from humanity. This is basing one doctrine on another one not yet in evidence or proven.
Jesus as a simple human is distinctive from the rest of God’s created creatures. He is also distinctive among his brothers.
He is the first to accomplish what Adam failed to do. That is the reason he is called the second Adam.
Christ life before the redemption work. ----
Assuming pure humanity for Christ and you have a magnificent accomplishment. One of great value to God. One that fulfills the purposes for His creation.
Assuming divinity or an advantage through preexistence for Christ and you lessen or eliminate any accomplishment at all. “Ain’t no big deal for a God to do what Christ did.â€

The primary goal of Christ life was not the redemptive work on the cross. The primary goal was to fulfill the purposes of God’s creation. To have perfected humanity. A temple in which God can dwell and flow from.
Christ redemptive work made it legally possible for the rest of humanity to again be part of that purpose. His redemptive work was only a part of his total goal.
Christ primary purpose was to complete Adam’s mandate. To become a perfected temple himself. After accomplishing this for himself his second purpose was to open the door through the cross for us to also complete Adam’s mandate for ourselves.