Is Jesus considered to be God?

[seekandlisten]

Something I have come to realize is this discussion on the trinity/Jesus is God/Jesus is man, is that it will never go anywhere in debate. There have been many good points presented for both sides of the argument already in this thread and other threads that now it has come to a point of going back to arguments already presented. This debate has gone on for 1800 years so I doubt a simple debate about it will prove one side or the other. I do have a problem when one decides to simply go beyond the debate and start making assumptions as to whether those with opposing beliefs are true believers. I am as guilty as the next for this but we do have to come to the realization that God is the only judge. In the end it will be simply us and God when it comes down to judgement. God doesn't judge religions as one, He judges us all individually based on whats in our hearts, not what is presented on the outside, or what beliefs we hold, or what religion we belong to.

 

[seekandlisten]

"....can WE decide who does and who doesn't have the Holy Spirit residing in them?" This is the question I presented.

"So is it your contention that the Holy Spirit WILL reside in someone who rejects the truth HE inspired?"

This is your assumption or twisting of my words.

I asked you a question, gent.
you can answer it or ignore it, but the question stands

Do you really need that question answered? Obviously the answer to your question is no. Now will you answer my question?

 

[mutzrein]

"....can WE decide who does and who doesn't have the Holy Spirit residing in them?" This is the question I presented.

"So is it your contention that the Holy Spirit WILL reside in someone who rejects the truth HE inspired?"

This is your assumption or twisting of my words.

I asked you a question, gent.
you can answer it or ignore it, but the question stands

Is it your contention that the Holy Spirit WILL NOT reside in someone who believes that Jesus is not God?

 

[follower of Christ]

"....can WE decide who does and who doesn't have the Holy Spirit residing in them?" This is the question I presented.

"So is it your contention that the Holy Spirit WILL reside in someone who rejects the truth HE inspired?"

This is your assumption or twisting of my words.

I asked you a question, gent.
you can answer it or ignore it, but the question stands

Do you really need that question answered? Obviously the answer to your question is no. Now will you answer my question?

So the answer to 'Will the Holy Spirit reside in someone who rejects His truth' is 'No, He wont' then.
I agree.
Thank you.
So we CAN discern who does and who does not have the Spirit residing in them simply by watching them and seeing if they persist in rejecting His truth.


I didnt see that you even asked a question in that post

 

[JudaicChristian]

How do Trinitarians deal with the fact that Yahshua said he was one among many gods? ]

And folks THIS is why we must know ALL of the scriptures and not pick at one verse to rip out of context.
This is why we cannot pretend to be scholars of Greek and Hebrew when we arent.
The word used for 'gods' is literally the same word used for God Himself.

G2316
????
theos
Thayer Definition:
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God’s representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges

Now, doesnt Gods word say that there is One God and no other ?

Passages like this are ones that people can twist and mangle into something they werent meant to be when they break out a Strongs and find out, guess what, this word literally means GOD.

But there is a context in the original passage that Jesus quotes in Psalms 82 that overall is about Judges and rulers, not literal deities.
[quote:1x7s1kiy] A Psalm of Asaph God stands in the assembly of the mighty; He judges in the midst of the gods. Until when will you judge unjustly, and lift up the faces of the wicked? Selah. Judge the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy; save out of the hand of the wicked. They neither know nor will understand; they walk in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I have said, You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. But you shall die as men, and fall like one of the rulers. Rise, O God, judge the earth; for You shall inherit in all the nations.
(Psalms 82:1-8 LITV)


Psa 82:6-8
It is hard for men to have honour put upon them, and not to be proud of it. But all the rulers of the earth shall die, and all their honour shall be laid in the dust. God governs the world. There is a righteous God to whom we may go, and on whom we may depend. This also has respect to the kingdom of the Messiah. Considering the state of affairs in the world, we have need to pray that the Lord Jesus would speedily rule over all nations, in truth, righteousness, and peace.
-Matthew Henry

This passage in John 1 is a really good test, in my opinion, as its so easily perverted into being something that it isnt that it can expose false doctrine when someone uses it to say there is more than one God when the CONTEXT from the word of God says nothing of the sort.
There is ONE God.

And we are certain that the Son of God has come, and has given us a clear vision, so that we may see him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. My little children, keep yourselves from false gods.
(1 John 5:20-21 BBE)

[/quote:1x7s1kiy]
Opinions are not facts. you have a way of twisting the truth.

 

[follower of Christ]

"....can WE decide who does and who doesn't have the Holy Spirit residing in them?" This is the question I presented.

"So is it your contention that the Holy Spirit WILL reside in someone who rejects the truth HE inspired?"

This is your assumption or twisting of my words.

I asked you a question, gent.
you can answer it or ignore it, but the question stands

Is it your contention that the Holy Spirit WILL NOT reside in someone who believes that Jesus is not God?

Ive actually answered this already and in a very clear manner, but I'll do so again for your amusement

When a new covert comes to Christ it is highly unlikely that they will know much of Gods word. So it cannot be expected that they know all of the essentials of the faith on day one. Therefore if they have not yet come to a firm view about Jesus being God its not really a huge concern at that point.

However, after it has been brought to their attention and the overwhelming evidence been presented, if they willingly and knowingly reject that truth, then I do not believe that the Spirit of God will indefinitely reside in this person if the persist in unbelief.
It would be contrary to Gods nature to dwell within a man who rejects His truth.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Opinions are not facts. you have a way of twisting the truth.

Oh please.
What are you even doing here ?

 

[follower of Christ]

reposting.
Had some weird typos going on there.
Trying to do too many things at one time ;)

"....can WE decide who does and who doesn't have the Holy Spirit residing in them?" This is the question I presented.

"So is it your contention that the Holy Spirit WILL reside in someone who rejects the truth HE inspired?"

This is your assumption or twisting of my words.

I asked you a question, gent.
you can answer it or ignore it, but the question stands

Do you really need that question answered? Obviously the answer to your question is no. Now will you answer my question?

So the answer to 'Will the Holy Spirit reside in someone who rejects His truth' is 'No, He wont' then.
I agree.
Thank you.
So we CAN discern who does and who does not have the Spirit residing in them simply by watching them and seeing if they persist in rejecting His truth.


I didnt see that you even asked a question in that post

 

[JudaicChristian]

Making false assertions is dishonest. All: And again I say all. All of the scriptures that prove a Trinity have been falsified. That is evil because it causes division among us. It is a sin to alter scripture to create a new doctrine. It is a sin to join Pagan beliefs to God.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Opinions are not facts. you have a way of twisting the truth.

Oh please.
What are you even doing here ?

Thats a good question, because you are to dishonest to speak to. I have never seen such a twisting of truth.

 

[follower of Christ]

Making false assertions is dishonest.

So why do you persist in doing it if you know better ?

All: And again I say all. All of the scriptures that prove a Trinity have been falsified.

Eh....Im going to have to go with a big 'NO' on this one ;)
READERS SEE >>> The Trinity

That is evil because it causes division among us.

Ah...and now for the fear tactics....yawn.
Try this with someone who doesnt live in a bible, friend. :yes

It is a sin to alter scripture to create a new doctrine. It is a sin to join Pagan beliefs to God.

Again, so why do you keep doing it ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Opinions are not facts. you have a way of twisting the truth.

Oh please.
What are you even doing here ?

Thats a good question, because you are to dishonest to speak to. I have never seen such a twisting of truth.

The Trinity concept is scriptural fact, gent.
I suggest you get used to it.


The Trinity
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that Jesus IS God and to show that the Holy Spirit IS God and therefore the Trinity teaching is scriptural truth.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Is Jesus God ?

Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If Jesus isnt God, why doesnt He correct Thomas here as He had corrected others ?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
(Joh 20:28 MKJV)

If Jesus isnt His own person in the Godhead, then He must be a liar here because He shows that the FATHER knows the day and hour here, but the SON does not.

But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
(Mark 13:32 LITV)

*IF* Jesus isnt His own person then He would HAVE to know the day and hour and thus He would be a LIAR for saying that ONLY His Father knew, NOT the Son.


1.5

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
(Colossians 2:9 EMTV)


Godhead
G2320
??????
theot?s
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead


G2320
??????
theot?s
theh-ot'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.

REGARDLESS of how the word theotes was RENDERED, its MEANING and INTENT is 'divinity'...ie Jesus Christ is DIVINE...ie a DEITY....ie GOD.
If Jesus IS God yet Jesus does NOT KNOW the day and hour of His return but ONLY the Father does (aka GOD) then there MUST BE some DISTINCTION between them...even tho BOTH ARE God.


Is the Son 'God' ?

But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
(Hebrews 1:8 MKJV)

G2316
????
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Oddly enough the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying...

Because of this the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but also He called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
(John 5:18 EMTV)

Is Jesus worthy of worship?

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
(Hebrews 1:6 EMTV)

Jesus The Creator

Who Created in the beginning ?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God did.

For He has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son; in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins. who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
(Colossians 1:13-17 MKJV)

All things were created in Him...all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible..all things were created THROUGH him and for Him.
Who is 'Him' in this passage ?
Sounds like 'His dear Son' to me.


2.0
Is the Holy Spirit 'God' ?

scripture shows that the Spirit of GOD came down upon Christ...

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him.
(Mat 3:16 EMTV)

And Luke shows that this IS the Holy Spirit.

and the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, "You are My beloved Son; in You I have found delight."
(Luk 3:22 EMTV)

Thus the evidence shows that the 'Spirit of God' and the 'Holy Spirit' are one and the same.

3.0
And here we tie it all together.

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."
(Matthew 3:16-17 EMTV)

1. Jesus, the Son who is called 'Mighty God' in Isaiah.
2. The Spirit descending in the form of a dove, who is the Spirit OF God.
3. The Father speaking from heaven, obvious enough.

 

[seekandlisten]

follower of christ,

is salvation inclusive or exclusive?

 

[mutzrein]

Is it your contention that the Holy Spirit WILL NOT reside in someone who believes that Jesus is not God?

Ive actually answered this already and in a very clear manner, but I'll do so again for your amusement

When a new covert comes to Christ it is highly unlikely that they will know much of Gods word. So it cannot be expected that they know all of the essentials of the faith on day one. Therefore if they have not yet come to a firm view about Jesus being God its not really a huge concern at that point.

However, after it has been brought to their attention and the overwhelming evidence been presented, if they willingly and knowingly reject that truth, then I do not believe that the Spirit of God will indefinitely reside in this person if the persist in unbelief.
It would be contrary to Gods nature to dwell within a man who rejects His truth.

My amusement? I wasn't asking for sarcasm.

Your assertion has no basis in scripture.

Show me from scripture where one who, having been given the Spirit of God, has the Spirit taken away from them if they fail to believe that Jesus is God.

 

[follower of Christ]

follower of christ,

is salvation inclusive or exclusive?

Im not going to play word games with you, friend.
Salvation comes by HEARING the truth and REACTING to that truth in a positive fashion.
Rejecting Gods truth is hardly going to result in salvation or maintain it.

 

[follower of Christ]

Your assertion has no basis in scripture.

You simply HAVE to be joking.....at least I hope.
So it is your assertion that God does not require BELIEF in His truth in order for Him to fellowship with man ?
Is that correct ?

Show me from scripture where one who, having been given the Spirit of God, has the Spirit taken away from them if they fail to believe that Jesus is God.

Thats a pretty interesting request.
I mean, gee, if there arent any actual examples IN the Bible, then I guess it cant be true.

The FACT is that God requires belief.
Do you claim that God is 'ok' with belief in a lie in order for a man to be saved ?

 

[seekandlisten]

follower of christ,

is salvation inclusive or exclusive?

Im not going to play word games with you, friend.
Salvation comes by HEARING the truth and REACTING to that truth in a positive fashion.Rejecting Gods truth is hardly going to result in salvation or maintain it.

Excellent point you make here(highlighted in blue). Now in regards to my earlier insertion of the passage from Jeremiah does one's opinion of what that truth is give us right to judge others salvation?

 

[follower of Christ]

Excellent point you make here(highlighted in blue). Now in regards to my earlier insertion of the passage from Jeremiah does one's opinion of what that truth is give us right to judge others salvation?

One has to wonder why Jesus even bothered wasting His time...and if you would tell us that we arent allowed to 'judge' for ourselves in the matter

"But beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grape clusters from thorns, or figs from thistles? Thus every good tree produces good fruit, but a rotten tree produces evil fruit. A good tree cannot produce evil fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce good fruit. Every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. Consequently, by their fruits you shall know them.
(Matthew 7:15-20 EMTV)

We KNOW these who ARENT His and who DONT have the Spirit in them BY THEIR FRUITS....by how they teach and what they produce.

Yes, friend, we CAN discern who does and who doesnt have the Spirit...

 

[seekandlisten]

Excellent point you make here(highlighted in blue). Now in regards to my earlier insertion of the passage from Jeremiah does one's opinion of what that truth is give us right to judge others salvation?

One has to wonder why Jesus even bothered wasting His time...and if you would tell us that we arent allowed to 'judge' for ourselves in the matter
Yes, friend, we CAN discern who does and who doesnt have the Spirit...

I definitely don't think Jesus wasted his time. I am not trying to tell you anything at least that is not my intention. We can judge for ourselves in determining the Truth but we can't raise ourself up and start passing that judgement on to other people. It becomes a matter of applying the Truth we learn into action that produces the fruit. Causing dissension is not good fruit.

 

[follower of Christ]

I definitely don't think Jesus wasted his time.

Im certainly getting that impression

I am not trying to tell you anything at least that is not my intention.

I see.
Change of heart or just not making yourself clear enough ?

We can judge for ourselves in determining the Truth but we can't raise ourself up and start passing that judgement on to other people.

Actually we CAN 'judge', friend.
You seem to be missing the REST of the story....
Youre thinking something like....

"Judge not, lest you be judged.
(Matthew 7:1 EMTV)

Im sorry but that doesnt mean we cant judge.
The REST of the passage shows that the INTENT is that we judge fairly and righteously...unlike the Jews to whom Christ was speaking to.

"Judge not, lest you be judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with what measure you measure, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the plank in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, 'Permit me to remove the speck from your eye'; and look, there is a plank in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
(Matthew 7:1-5 EMTV)

We ARE allowed to judge, we are simply to make sure WE arent doing the very thing that we are judging in someone else, and we are to judge with a righteous judgment.

Causing dissension is not good fruit.

That depends.
Do you believe that God just wants us to all 'get along'....even at the expense of truth ?
I doubt it.
Jesus Himself said that He did not come to bring peace.

"Do not suppose that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to 'turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; and 'a man's enemies will be his own household members.'
(Matthew 10:34-36 EMTV)

Our faith and our stand for HIS truth will cause dissension. It is inevitable...

.