Is Jesus considered to be God?

[follower of Christ]

The Trinity
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that Jesus IS God and to show that the Holy Spirit IS God and therefore the Trinity teaching is scriptural truth.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Is Jesus God ?

Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If Jesus isnt God, why doesnt He correct Thomas here as He had corrected others ?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
(Joh 20:28 MKJV)

If Jesus isnt His own person in the Godhead, then He must be a liar here because He shows that the FATHER knows the day and hour here, but the SON does not.

But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
(Mark 13:32 LITV)

*IF* Jesus isnt His own person then He would HAVE to know the day and hour and thus He would be a LIAR for saying that ONLY His Father knew, NOT the Son.


1.5

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
(Colossians 2:9 EMTV)


Godhead
G2320
??????
theot?s
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead


G2320
??????
theot?s
theh-ot'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.

REGARDLESS of how the word theotes was RENDERED, its MEANING and INTENT is 'divinity'...ie Jesus Christ is DIVINE...ie a DEITY....ie GOD.
If Jesus IS God yet Jesus does NOT KNOW the day and hour of His return but ONLY the Father does (aka GOD) then there MUST BE some DISTINCTION between them...even tho BOTH ARE God.


2.0
Is the Holy Spirit 'God' ?

scripture shows that the Spirit of GOD came down upon Christ...

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him.
(Mat 3:16 EMTV)

And Luke shows that this IS the Holy Spirit.

and the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, "You are My beloved Son; in You I have found delight."
(Luk 3:22 EMTV)

Thus the evidence shows that the 'Spirit of God' and the 'Holy Spirit' are one and the same.

3.0
And here we tie it all together.

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."
(Matthew 3:16-17 EMTV)

1. Jesus, the Son who is called 'Mighty God' in Isaiah.
2. The Spirit descending in the form of a dove, who is the Spirit OF God.
3. The Father speaking from heaven, obvious enough.

 

[Apostolic Soldier]

[quote="Apostolic Soldier":3koij1nk]I know it is difficult for many people to get past this body of Christ. The flesh of Christ leads many to believe in this supposed "distinction" of persons in a Triune Godhead.

WRONG, chap.
the SCRIPTURES lead man to believe in the trinity...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

There was a man sent from God; his name was John. This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name, who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us.
And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth. John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I spoke: He who comes after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace. For the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(John 1:1-17 MKJV)

[/quote:3koij1nk]

How do you continually use the scripture that actually says The Word (Jesus Christ) WAS GOD, to support the Trinity. Sorry but most stick with either Matthew 28:18 or 1 John 5:7 (and an incorrect interpretation) to continue believing this lie. I mean, if you read that verse enough, surely you'll see there is but One God who has Three Offices that he works through, not One God that is seperated into three parts.

 

[Apostolic Soldier]

3.0
And here we tie it all together.

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."
(Matthew 3:16-17 EMTV)

1. Jesus, the Son who is called 'Mighty God' in Isaiah.
2. The Spirit descending in the form of a dove, who is the Spirit OF God.
3. The Father speaking from heaven, obvious enough.[quote:2tfo7c20]

[/quote:2tfo7c20]

Did you not read what I wrote about Luke 12:19? We know that the Spirit of God dwelled within the Flesh of Jesus however, it is omnipresent and it can be in two places believe it or not.

 

[follower of Christ]

How do you continually use the scripture that actually says The Word (Jesus Christ) WAS GOD, to support the Trinity.

Firstly what do you mean by 'WAS God" ?
The context is 'the beginning' so 'WAS God' is simply speaking from that timeframe...ie the PAST. ;)

Sorry but you need to stick with either Matthew 28:18 or 1 John 5:7 like most Trinitarians to continue believing this lie.

No, chap, I dont.
Ive presented a number of other passages that youve chosen to ignore.

I mean, if you read that verse enough, surely you'll see there is but One God who has Three Offices that he works through, not One God that is seperated into three parts.

Wrong.
The passage shows that the word was WITH God and WAS God. ;)


.

 

[follower of Christ]

Did you not read what I wrote about Luke 12:19? We know that the Spirit of God dwelled within the Flesh of Jesus however, it is omnipresent and it can be in two places believe it or not.

And did YOU not read that the Father knows something the Son does not ?

But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
(Mark 13:32 LITV)

 

[Yahoshea]

The Trinity
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that Jesus IS God and to show that the Holy Spirit IS God and therefore the Trinity teaching is scriptural truth.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Is Jesus God ?

Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The term “name†in this verse is the Hebrew word “shemâ€. The literal meaning of this word is “character or character traitâ€. I can produce the etomology of the term if necessary.

The entire verse would read as this in the Hebrew ---

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his character shall function like Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

In this case “name†is not an identifier. It is not saying that the child “is†the Mighty God. In fact there is no word for “is†in the Hebrew language. The closest one could get would be “functions like or as†or “relates to me as.â€

This verse is about the character of Christ not his identity as God.

 

[follower of Christ]

YOu might be able to twist and distort that passage, Y, but Im sorry to say that there is MUCH more evidence against your views

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

There was a man sent from God; his name was John. This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name, who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us.
And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth. John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I spoke: He who comes after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace. For the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(John 1:1-17 MKJV)

 

[Apostolic Soldier]

If Jesus isnt His own person in the Godhead, then He must be a liar here because He shows that the FATHER knows the day and hour here, but the SON does not.

But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
(Mark 13:32 LITV)

*IF* Jesus isnt His own person then He would HAVE to know the day and hour and thus He would be a LIAR for saying that ONLY His Father knew, NOT the Son.


[quote:1ms972np]

[/quote:1ms972np]

I see that I haven't spoken about this verse yet. You continue to use this one as though it was relevent. The Flesh was talking here about his own coming back. The Flesh did not not know when the Spirit would be coming back. So, no the Flesh (or the supposed second person in a "triune Godhead") doesn't know when he is coming back. However, the Spirit (or the Father does). This is the spirit that is coming back. No, the MAN Jesus didn't know but the Spirit of God which was in Jesus, did. See, there that whole Flesh/Soul concept debunks this scripture as well.

 

[follower of Christ]

I see that I haven't spoken about this verse yet. You continue to use this one as though it was relevent.

That you dont think it is says a multitude.

The Flesh was talking here about his own coming back.

*IF* your views were true then, flesh or not, being GOD He would know ALL that God knew.

The Flesh did not not know when the Spirit would be coming back.

Ridiculous twist.
JESUS, God the Son, did not know when He was to return.
God the Father does ;)

See, there that whole Flesh/Soul concept debunks this scripture as well.

What a hoot.
Little hint. Saying something dont make it so ;)

 

[Yahoshea]

Lots has been said about John 1. Lots of opinions, but what does the actual Greek say?
In the Interlinear (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... _Index.htm) John 1:1 is translated literally:
1:1 In original (beginning) was the saying (word/utterance) and the saying(word/utterance) was toward (in relation to) the God and God was the saying (word/utterance).
1:2 This was in original (beginning) toward (in relation to) the God.
1:14 And the saying (word/utterance) flesh became and booths (tabernacles) in (among) us and we gaze the esteem (glory) of him esteem (glory) as of only generated (only begotten one) beside father full of grace and truth.
{There is no proof in the Greek originals which shows that the word was a living person prior to the decree as in: Jesus was the “word†immaterial, then became the “word†material;.}
This would mean the indefinite article “a†does not belong in John 1:1 because the word/utterance/saying was God. ?{????? = oration, reason, speech, word, logos}
It belonged to and originated with God just as it shows, as an utterance, speech or idea not a person.
Verse 14: That utterance, saying, word, became flesh manifest as Jesus.
So the personification of the term logos/word did not happen until verse 14 when Jesus became flesh.
The interlinear shows “word†is simply the utterance (or decree) of God. The finality of that specific utterance manifested itself as Jesus in the flesh. So then in essence Jesus became the “word†or the fulfillment of that “word.€

 

[follower of Christ]

Apparently REAL bible scholars agree that Jesus is the Word and that the Word IS God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
(John 1:1-4 MKJV)

The Word was WITH God and the word WAS God.
The Trinity as far as the Father and the Son are absolutely and conclusively proven by this one tiny verse.

Was God - In the previous phrase John had said that the Word was “with God.†Lest it should be supposed that he was a different and inferior being, here John states that “he was God.†There is no more unequivocal declaration in the Bible than this, and there could be no stronger proof that the sacred writer meant to affirm that the Son of God was equal with the Father; because:
Albert Barnes


And the Word was God - Or, God was the Logos: therefore no subordinate being, no second to the Most High, but the supreme eternal Jehovah.
Adam Clarke


and the word was God;
not made a God, as he is said here after to be made flesh; nor constituted or appointed a God, or a God by office; but truly and properly God, in the highest sense of the word, as appears from the names by which he is called; as Jehovah, God, our, your, their, and my God, God with us, the mighty God, God over all, the great God, the living God, the true God, and eternal life; and from his perfections, and the whole fulness of the Godhead that dwells in him, as independence, eternity, immutability, omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence; and from his works of creation and providence, his miracles, the work of redemption, his forgiving sins, the resurrection of himself and others from the dead, and the administration of the last judgment; and from the worship given him, as prayer to him, faith in him, and the performance of baptism in his name: nor is it any objection to the proper deity of Christ, that the article is here wanting; since when the word is applied to the Father, it is not always used, and even in this chapter, Joh_1:6 and which shows, that the word "God", is not the subject, but the predicate of this proposition, as we render it: so the Jews often use the word of the Lord for Jehovah, and call him God. Thus the words in Gen_28:20 are paraphrased by Onkelos,
John Gill

.

 

[follower of Christ]

We can play games with the greek all we want but the CONTEXT of John 1 proves conclusively that the Word IS GOD and was WITH GOD and that this Word is Jesus Christ.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

There was a man sent from God; his name was John. This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name, who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.

And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us.
And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth. John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I spoke: He who comes after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace. For the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(John 1:1-17 MKJV)

 

[Yahoshea]

YOu might be able to twist and distort that passage, Y, but Im sorry to say that there is MUCH more evidence against your views

Reply -
so attempting to understand the scripture in the original language is twisting and distorting?
All you seem to want to do is antagonize. You are not interested in real study or discussion.
If you do not accept my research of the Hebrew, please feel free to supply your own or do you suppose that an English translation is superior to the original language.

 

[follower of Christ]

Reply -
so attempting to understand the scripture in the original language is twisting and distorting?

Are you a scholar of Koine Greek, friend ?
We dont need to break out the Strongs here. Many godly men who DO know the underlying languages and texts have rendered the texts for us and have shown that the CONTEXT is that the Word is God and is WITH God and this Word is Jesus Christ.
ALL I see you doing is trying your best to OMIT the CONTEXT of the passage with YOUR REinterpretations.

All you seem to want to do is antagonize.

Typical.
So anyone who refuses to play by your rules is antagonizing then ?

You are not interested in real study or discussion.

Sure I am.
Ive provided plenty of discussion. But I refuse to run down this cheese trail of irrelevance you keep laying out for us.
Like the man says ... "just the facts, maam"

Im not interested in irrelevance nor your REinterpretations of the texts.
Im interested in what the WHOLE word of God teaches IN CONTEXT.

If you do not accept my research of the Hebrew,

I dont.

please feel free to supply your own or do you suppose that an English translation is superior to the original language.

Since I am not a scholar of ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek I will hardly pretend to be.
I suggest you do the same.

 

[Solo]

Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, and those that deny this truth have the spirit of antichrist leading them.

 

[follower of Christ]

Is the Son 'God' ?

But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
(Hebrews 1:8 MKJV)

G2316
????
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

 

[follower of Christ]

Is Jesus considered to be God?

Oddly enough the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying...

Because of this the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but also He called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
(John 5:18 EMTV)

 

[Yahoshea]

We can play games with the greek all we want but the CONTEXT of John 1 proves conclusively that the Word IS GOD and was WITH GOD and that this Word is Jesus Christ.

THE GREEK IS THE CONTEXT. IS YOUR ENGLISH BIBLE MORE CREDIBLE THEN THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES IN THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGES?
YOU HAVE BEEN THROWING AROUND JOHN 1 ALL DAY AND DEFYING ME TO DEBATE THE ISSUE. I POST WHAT THE GREEK REALLY SAYS AND YOU DISMISS IT. YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOUR DOCTRINE.

You say -
Are you a scholar of Koine Greek, friend ?
We dont need to break out the Strongs here. Many godly men who DO know the underlying languages and texts have rendered the texts for us and have shown that the CONTEXT is that the Word is God and is WITH God and this Word is Jesus Christ.
ALL I see you doing is trying your best to OMIT the CONTEXT of the passage with YOUR REinterpretations.

Reply -
Where is "my" interpretation in the Greek text. In fact I have studied Greek and Hebrew to some degree. But even a dunce can read an interlinear of the original Greek.
Many Godly men have also stated that the term Word cannot be literally translated Jesus.
I agree that your vision is very narrow. so narrow in fact that you will ignore the scriptures in favor of your doctrine. the greek text is the real scripture not your english translation.
I do not claim to be an expert in Hebrew or greek (although I obviously know how to research more then you)
A person does not need to be an expert in these languages to know that they carry much more importance the the translations.
You have simple ignored the scriptures I have posted and when I responded to your scriptures you dismiss them.



YOU ARE NOT EVEN RESPONDING RATIONALLY. YOU ARE CATEGORICALLY DENYING WHAT THE ACTUAL GREEK SCRIPTURES SAY. THE SAME THING YOU ACCUSED ME OF DOING TIME AND AGAIN.
TALK ABOUT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK.

YOU ARE PROVING THE CHARACTER (or lack thereof) ISSUE I HAVE OFTEN TALKED ABOUT. YOU ARE MORE INTERESTED IN WINNING THE DEBATE THEN YOU ARE IN TRUTH OR RESULTS.
You push philosophical head knowledge (I use the term knowledge very loosely) and claim to have the last "word" (like the pun?) in understanding scripture and yet when confronted with what scripture really says you dismiss it in favor of a doctrine you choose to believe before the discussion even began.
Your doctrine is a fruitless fig tree and your so-called big gun scripture (John 1) is a sham of interpretation.

Not very entertaining.

 

[follower of Christ]

THE GREEK IS THE CONTEXT.

And the GREEK HAS BEEN RENDERED INTO ENGLISH BY MANY GODLY TRANSLATORS !
WE DONT NEED YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE GREEK !

IS YOUR ENGLISH BIBLE MORE CREDIBLE THEN THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES IN THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGES?

Its more credible than YOUR interpretation of the greek, that is for certain....

 

[follower of Christ]

YOU HAVE BEEN THROWING AROUND JOHN 1 ALL DAY AND DEFYING ME TO DEBATE THE ISSUE.

Defying you ?
Hardly friend. Frankly Im hoping you just go away and quite trying to mislead my brethren here.

I POST WHAT THE GREEK REALLY SAYS AND YOU DISMISS IT.

No, you posted what YOU claim the greek says.
The CONTEXT doesnt line up with your nonsense views.

YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOUR DOCTRINE.

Look in a mirror