Is Jesus considered to be God?

[follower of Christ]

You put forth many different points regarding your beliefs but did not answer my question. I don't disagree with anything God's Word teaches. I have a problem with the trinity doctrine, a man made doctrine not taught in the bible except based on man's interpretation.

If you have problems with the fact that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Spirit is God, then YES...you DO have a problem with what Gods word teaches.

What is the good fruit put forward by this doctrine?

Uh....truth ?
Is not the truth paramount ?

 

[follower of Christ]

I have been asking for some time for a trinitarian to show me the fruit of their doctrine. I have been virtually dismissed on the matter.

That friend, is a fabrication.
Ive already told you that TRUTH is ALWAYS what we should be seeking.
If knowing that Jesus is God has only ONE 'fruit'...that we KNOW the truth of it....then that is ALL that was necessary in the matter.

What I really like to know is what 'fruit' YOUR error produces. What is the point of denying the divinity of Christ ?
Please elaborate in your next post, if you will.

 

[Rick W]

The realization that it was God in the flesh that hung on the cross hit me like a ton of bricks. In other words, He didn't expect someone else to do something he wouldn't do Himself.
The fruit of that realization dramatically increased my faith. I was a very new Christian at the time. Would I have continued in my faith without that "revelation"? I don't know. But I do know that after that I couldn't turn my back on Him.
Knowing who Christ is put more emphasis on the love of God for me. Scripture became that much more the evidence of the love He has for us. Yes, for me the fruit of the doctrine was and is profound.

 

[follower of Christ]

My experiance on forums forces me to conclude that many of the people encountered on forums are not as interested in a living viable gospel as they are in philosophical debate on religious topics.

And yet....here YOU are, right in the middle of it all

they use scripture like a hunting weapon seeking who they can destroy and at the same time offer them no alternative that will produce fruit.

Wrong gent.
We use scripture in the same way Jesus Christ and Paul used it. Like a two edged sword to destroy heresies and godless error.

It has been my understanding that we were to be fishers of men and not hunters.

I suggest that you REread the NT then, friend.
We are fishermen of the LOST...we are also to correct and even REBUKE where error is concerned.
Shall I post scripture for you on this as well ?

They proclaim that they have the truth and that it is paramount but cannot produce any evidence that the truth (as they see it) does any good at all.

Again WHAT GOOD/FRUIT does NOT believing that Jesus Christ is God produce ?
Ill expect a response fairly soon

 

[follower of Christ]

Im sorry, but this one is just bothering me.

seekandlisten wrote:
I see where the trinity doctrine has produced bad fruit so I question those who believe in it and think that I must believe in it as well to show me the good fruit this doctrine brings to one's spiritual walk?

Tell us, what 'bad fruit' has the doctrine produced, friend ?
Are you going to say division ?
Because division has existed from the beginning. Paul Himself said that he knew that wolves would come from amoung ourselves not sparing the flock

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
(Acts 20:29-30 KJV)

So if its division that is your reasoning, sorry to say that this is hardly evidence against the Trinity concept.
There are MANY areas of doctrine that have produced far worse than the Trinity has, Im afraid. Any real study will prove that very quickly. And sadly much of it has been between professing protestants.
I'll leave you to find that for yourself.


Secondly, you say you question those who believe in the trinity.
What are you questioning, friend, because it sounds as tho your intent is our salvation and integrity.
Is that the case ?
If so, shall we take a moment to say that WE have the same questions of those who deny the divinity of our Risen Lord ?


Thirdly, and again, if the ONLY fruit produced by accepting that Jesus is God is simply KNOWING that fact, then THAT is all the 'fruit' that is necessary.
TRUTH is what matters...and it doesnt matter whether we like that truth or not.
What matters is when GOD speaks that MAN hears, believes and obeys...whether he agrees or understands.
Had WE done that in the garden we might not be in this mess to begin with.

.

 

[seekandlisten]

My experiance on forums forces me to conclude that many of the people encountered on forums are not as interested in a living viable gospel as they are in philosophical debate on religious topics.

And yet....here YOU are, right in the middle of it all

[quote:2iuwaxjn] they use scripture like a hunting weapon seeking who they can destroy and at the same time offer them no alternative that will produce fruit.

Wrong gent.
We use scripture in the same way Jesus Christ and Paul used it. Like a two edged sword to destroy heresies and godless error.

It has been my understanding that we were to be fishers of men and not hunters.

I suggest that you REread the NT then, friend.
We are fishermen of the LOST...we are also to correct and even REBUKE where error is concerned.
Shall I post scripture for you on this as well ?

They proclaim that they have the truth and that it is paramount but cannot produce any evidence that the truth (as they see it) does any good at all.

Again WHAT GOOD/FRUIT does NOT believing that Jesus Christ is God produce ?
Ill expect a response fairly soon [/quote:2iuwaxjn]


Realizing what Jesus presented for our salvation. You won't catch me saying that you must believe Jesus is not God to become a christian. The biggest problem I have with the trinity is it is put forth as a must for salvation. We are unable to comprehend God yet when we make Jesus God we now have and image we can worship. With the trinity we make Jesus the God of the old testament. We also come to the point of saying one must simply believe Jesus died for our sins and repent when we sin. While some would say there is more to it then this I believe this mindset comes from believing Jesus is God. If we make him God how can we follow his example? I can't say as to what level of divinity Jesus has but I do have a big problem with one not realizng he was no more than a man here on earth. Now I'm not a scholar and I have seen some points put forward by people that are far better then one's I can make so merely take this as my opinion. I think of a passage in Hebrews that warns of an endless cycle of sin and repentance.

A couple of other thoughts I have on why I don't believe the trinity doctrine. It was not voted on unanimously. It was made by man. Man says it is a must when Jesus is the only way. The trinity is an identical model to a Roman god, one that is even mentioned in the bible. The reasons as to why Constantine called the councils in the 3rd century. If I believe God to be incarnated into Jesus wouldn't that make reincarnation a plausible belief?

When it comes down to it, one's beliefs are between God and that person. There will always be people who debate topics of little relevance so the question becomes what is the point. I have a huge problem with the trinity being made a mandatory belief. I also agree with the fact that if one is set in their beliefs they will stand by them. This is why I asked what is the benefit of believing in the trinity. So far I have only seen it presented as helping one's understanding of God which it doesn't personally for me. Is this it's only benefit?

 

[seekandlisten]

Im sorry, but this one is just bothering me.

seekandlisten wrote:
I see where the trinity doctrine has produced bad fruit so I question those who believe in it and think that I must believe in it as well to show me the good fruit this doctrine brings to one's spiritual walk?

Tell us, what 'bad fruit' has the doctrine produced, friend ?
Are you going to say division ?
Because division has existed from the beginning. Paul Himself said that he knew that wolves would come from amoung ourselves not sparing the flock
[quote:2n9dsnnq]For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
(Acts 20:29-30 KJV)

So if its division that is your reasoning, sorry to say that this is hardly evidence against the Trinity concept.
There are MANY areas of doctrine that have produced far worse than the Trinity has, Im afraid. Any real study will prove that very quickly. And sadly much of it has been between professing protestants.
I'll leave you to find that for yourself.


Secondly, you say you question those who believe in the trinity.
What are you questioning, friend, because it sounds as tho your intent is our salvation and integrity.
Is that the case ?
If so, shall we take a moment to say that WE have the same questions of those who deny the divinity of our Risen Lord ?


Thirdly, and again, if the ONLY fruit produced by accepting that Jesus is God is simply KNOWING that fact, then THAT is all the 'fruit' that is necessary.
TRUTH is what matters...and it doesnt matter whether we like that truth or not.
What matters is when GOD speaks that MAN hears, believes and obeys...whether he agrees or understands.
Had WE done that in the garden we might not be in this mess to begin with.

.[/quote:2n9dsnnq]
I don't think I can answer your questions sufficiently. Yes it is one of the things that causes division but that is an entirely different topic in itself. If you have seen any of my other posts I believe that their is a separation between the true believer and the religion of christianity. This is as simply as I can put it so sorry if it doesn't clarify. I am fine with someone believing different then me but I do have a problem with people who have beliefs that say I must believe like them in order to be saved. Jesus is the only way and if you need to put doctrine in between the believer and Jesus than I question how these doctrines are beneficial.

 

[follower of Christ]

Realizing what Jesus presented for our salvation. You won't catch me saying that you must believe Jesus is not God to become a christian.

Then what is it that you question, I wonder.

The biggest problem I have with the trinity is it is put forth as a must for salvation.

And if Jesus IS God as we believe and scripture shows and you reject that truth ?

We are unable to comprehend God yet when we make Jesus God we now have and image we can worship.

Huh...
Methinks youd best be back into the word, dear friend.

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
(Hebrews 1:6 KJV)

You deny the Christ what even ANGELS will offer ????

 

[follower of Christ]

With the trinity we make Jesus the God of the old testament.

Isnt He ?
What does Jesus think of Himself ?

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
(John 8:58 EMTV)

Do you understand the implications of that statement ?

We also come to the point of saying one must simply believe Jesus died for our sins and repent when we sin.

o...k

While some would say there is more to it then this I believe this mindset comes from believing Jesus is God. If we make him God how can we follow his example?

I think youre making this more complex than it is ;)
By understanding that He IS God, and therefore IS capable of not sinning, and then knowing that WE ARENT God, we can see that while it IS possible for the Son of God to be without sin, for us it is simply a goal that we cannot accomplish in these bodies.
We are in a constant war against our flesh, that grows easier over time, but anyone who says he has no sin does not have the truth in him.
KNOWING that Jesus IS God helps US to see that while HE was sinless WE arent.
If I thought that Jesus was a mere man, Id go mad trying to BE absolutely sinless when I cannot.

 

[follower of Christ]

I can't say as to what level of divinity Jesus has but I do have a big problem with one not realizng he was no more than a man here on earth.

So Jesus was a 'demi-god' then ?
Thats far more disturbing than just accepting that He IS God as scripture proves.

Now I'm not a scholar and I have seen some points put forward by people that are far better then one's I can make so merely take this as my opinion. I think of a passage in Hebrews that warns of an endless cycle of sin and repentance.

Of intentionally sinning by choice, that is certain.
This isnt really relevant to the issue of Jesus being God, however.

A couple of other thoughts I have on why I don't believe the trinity doctrine. It was not voted on unanimously. It was made by man.

NO friend, it is presented in scripture. Man simply acknowledged that fact.
When you come to terms with that then we'll be able to get somewhere.

The trinity is an identical model to a Roman god, one that is even mentioned in the bible.

Assuming this is even remotely true, so what ?
So satan mimicked something God...isnt that just like Satan to do just that ....and for the purpose to DECIEVE ?
Shouldnt that tell you something ?

 

[seekandlisten]

With the trinity we make Jesus the God of the old testament.

Isnt He ?
What does Jesus think of Himself ?
[quote:10bcykfb]Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
(John 8:58 EMTV)

Do you understand the implications of that statement ?

We also come to the point of saying one must simply believe Jesus died for our sins and repent when we sin.

o...k

While some would say there is more to it then this I believe this mindset comes from believing Jesus is God. If we make him God how can we follow his example?

I think youre making this more complex than it is ;)
By understanding that He IS God, and therefore IS capable of not sinning, and then knowing that WE ARENT God, we can see that while it IS possible for the Son of God to be without sin, for us it is simply a goal that we cannot accomplish in these bodies.
We are in a constant war against our flesh, that grows easier over time, but anyone who says he has no sin does not have the truth in him.
KNOWING that Jesus IS God helps US to see that while HE was sinless WE arent.
If I thought that Jesus was a mere man, Id go mad trying to BE absolutely sinless when I cannot.[/quote:10bcykfb]

The payment for sin is death. Jesus paid this price so we don't have to. I don't see what you are getting at here. Obviously we can't live a sinfree life. We do however have to follow Jesus' example and love our neighbors. Jesus was tempted in everyway that we are so if he was God how does this apply to us?

 

[follower of Christ]

The reasons as to why Constantine called the councils in the 3rd century. If I believe God to be incarnated into Jesus wouldn't that make reincarnation a plausible belief?

I figured this would somehow come down to this.
Let me ask you this...can God ever use 'evil' to do His will ?
Who canonized the scriptures for us friend ? What group ?
Are you saying that was a BAD thing...that because we dont agree with much of what this group teaches that NOTHING good was ever done thru them by God ?
I think you had better get back into your OT....starting with 2 Chronicles 18:22 or so.

When it comes down to it, one's beliefs are between God and that person.

Only up until theyve shared those beliefs with another person in way as to expect them to agree.

There will always be people who debate topics of little relevance so the question becomes what is the point. I have a huge problem with the trinity being made a mandatory belief.

Then simply stay out of the discussions about it, believe what you wish and hope you are right on that day.

I also agree with the fact that if one is set in their beliefs they will stand by them. This is why I asked what is the benefit of believing in the trinity.

The benefit is belief in the truth. That is all that is necessary.

 

[follower of Christ]

The payment for sin is death. Jesus paid this price so we don't have to. I don't see what you are getting at here. Obviously we can't live a sinfree life. We do however have to follow Jesus' example and love our neighbors. Jesus was tempted in everyway that we are so if he was God how does this apply to us?

You said something about following His example. That was what I responded to.
If He is God we can follow HIs example yet know that HE was perfect and sinless while WE are not...therefore even tho HE did not stumble WE will at times.
*IF* Jesus was mere human being and was sinless then shouldnt we 'follow His example' and be sinless as well ?

Im certain that Im being clear enough here to comprehend my point

 

[Rick W]

*IF* Jesus was mere human being and was sinless then shouldnt we 'follow His example' and be sinless as well ?

One thing for sure though. He demonstrated why we need Him as our Savior.

 

[follower of Christ]

I don't think I can answer your questions sufficiently. Yes it is one of the things that causes division but that is an entirely different topic in itself.

Maybe if your questions were a bit less ambiguous I wouldnt have to try to figure out what it is you are asking ?

If you have seen any of my other posts I believe that their is a separation between the true believer and the religion of christianity.
This is as simply as I can put it so sorry if it doesn't clarify.

As we all do
And again Ill ask if you are claiming that trinity adherents arent really saved.
I know you dont want to commit here, but thats the impression Im hearing beneath the surface of some of what youve presented.

I am fine with someone believing different then me but I do have a problem with people who have beliefs that say I must believe like them in order to be saved.

And if it IS required that you believe John 1 'as written'...ie that Jesus IS the Word and that the Word IS God ?
Can you see why we might be concerned enough to want to cause you to accept the truth if your soul is on the line here ?

Jesus is the only way and if you need to put doctrine in between the believer and Jesus than I question how these doctrines are beneficial.

Doctrine is 'teaching'.
The entire bible is FULL of 'teachings' that are required for obedience and knowledge of the Living God.

.

 

[francisdesales]

A couple of other thoughts I have on why I don't believe the trinity doctrine. It was not voted on unanimously.

Nor was the council mentioned in Acts 15...

It was made by man.

How are you going to differentiate between "man-made" interpretations of Scriptures and "God-made" interpretations of Scriptures???

Man says it is a must when Jesus is the only way.

A must for what?

The trinity is an identical model to a Roman god, one that is even mentioned in the bible.

"identical"? And is there also not an "exact" model in Egyptian mythology that "models" a god who dies and rises again to save the people???

Similarities does not equal coorelation or the source. Mithra also had some points of commonality with Christianity. But I imagine if you look hard enough, you'd find similarities to all kinds of things.

The reasons as to why Constantine called the councils in the 3rd century.

The reasons as to why there was a council in Acts 15 - does that mean we should go back to the Old Covenant and REQUIRE that Christians obey the Mosaic law? Back to not eating yummy bbq pork??? NO!

If I believe God to be incarnated into Jesus wouldn't that make reincarnation a plausible belief?

What does that have to do with God becoming flesh?

When it comes down to it, one's beliefs are between God and that person. There will always be people who debate topics of little relevance so the question becomes what is the point. I have a huge problem with the trinity being made a mandatory belief.

It is "mandatory" in as far as you wanting to be called Christian. If you do not believe in the Trinity, then you can't call yourself Christian, because that is one of our fundamental beliefs. Membership to any organization has particular demands.

I also agree with the fact that if one is set in their beliefs they will stand by them. This is why I asked what is the benefit of believing in the trinity. So far I have only seen it presented as helping one's understanding of God which it doesn't personally for me. Is this it's only benefit?

A proper understanding of the Trinity explains the rest of the Scriptures. It establishes our paradigm, our understanding of who we are, who God is (as much as God has chosen to reveal), of God's plan for us, and our eventual eschatological future. Without the Trinity, one will not correctly understand this.

I guess there is some benefit to knowing that God is Trinity.

Regards

 

[follower of Christ]

[quote="follower of Christ":24flq6y7]
*IF* Jesus was mere human being and was sinless then shouldnt we 'follow His example' and be sinless as well ?

One thing for sure though. He demonstrated why we need Him as our Savior.[/quote:24flq6y7]
Absolutely.
The more I see how perfect He actually is, the more I see my own disgusting sinfullness, regardless of how minor it may appear in someone elses eyes, the more I want to keep pushing myself in the race.
I think most of us are like that to whatever extent.

 

[follower of Christ]

Interesting little verse...

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
(Hebrews 1:6 EMTV)

And here I thought GOD was the only One to be worshipped ;)

.

 

[seekandlisten]

The reasons as to why Constantine called the councils in the 3rd century. If I believe God to be incarnated into Jesus wouldn't that make reincarnation a plausible belief?

I figured this would somehow come down to this.
Let me ask you this...can God ever use 'evil' to do His will ?
Who canonized the scriptures for us friend ? What group ?
Are you saying that was a BAD thing...that because we dont agree with much of what this group teaches that NOTHING good was ever done thru them by God ?
I think you had better get back into your OT....starting with 2 Chronicles 18:22 or so.

And here we go again. I'm not about to do anyone's research for them. I was raised in the christian religion along with the trinity for 20 years of my life. I have researched numerous religions and origins of doctrines to come to what I hold as beliefs today. I look to God's guidance alone through His Holy Spirit plain and simple. Does one think that when they stand before God in judgement that what religion or doctrines you believe in are going to be on His checklist of whether or not you receive life? The only way to the Father is through Jesus. One's understanding of this is the key to salvation.
[quote:ncan2heq]When it comes down to it, one's beliefs are between God and that person.

Only up until theyve shared those beliefs with another person in way as to expect them to agree.

There will always be people who debate topics of little relevance so the question becomes what is the point. I have a huge problem with the trinity being made a mandatory belief.

Then simply stay out of the discussions about it, believe what you wish and hope you are right on that day. I think I'll take this advice.

I also agree with the fact that if one is set in their beliefs they will stand by them. This is why I asked what is the benefit of believing in the trinity.

The benefit is belief in the truth. That is all that is necessary.[/quote:ncan2heq]

 

[follower of Christ]

And here we go again. I'm not about to do anyone's research for them.

For them ?
Friend WE have done the research.
I made the suggestion for YOUR benefit. Frankly I dont care one way or another if you choose to further your knowledge of scriptures or not. Thats entirely on you

I was raised in the christian religion along with the trinity for 20 years of my life.

Most of us were.
Isnt really relevant.

I have researched numerous religions and origins of doctrines to come to what I hold as beliefs today.

And see *I* set all that aside many years ago and looked directly at Gods word to know HIS truth.
The details of godless, pagan religions arent necessary to knowing GODS truth

I look to God's guidance alone through His Holy Spirit plain and simple.

We ALL make that claim friend. Yet here we are disagreeing.
One thing is certain...at least ONE of us is wrong

Does one think that when they stand before God in judgement that what religion or doctrines you believe in are going to be on His checklist of whether or not you receive life?

Actually yes.
Did you somehow miss in scripture that we are to adhere to SOUND DOCTRINE ???
Do you think that is given to for the writers health or something ?

The only way to the Father is through Jesus.

And how do you know that ?
By the DOCTRINE (teachings) that proclaim it

One's understanding of this is the key to salvation.

So knowing that is key, but something like obedience isnt ?
And obedience to what ? Sound doctrine/teaching presented in the scriptures, maybe ?