Is Jesus FULLY God & Praying

[JLB]

When making a point I try to stick with the KJV just so I don't get accused of switching things to better make my point. It sort of sucks because other translations make the point a whole lot better, but I have learned to deal with it.

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. John 17:11 NIV


I don't care too much for the NIV, but I like the way it reads here.


JLB

 

[Free]

I was meaning that it looks like a copy and paste from the Internet, so I was wondering if you could post a link to the source.

It is a copy and Past so I did not get the Wording wrong.

http://hbdoctrine.webs.com/simmonsch7.htm

Here is an older version if you like.
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm

Explaining the concept of the Trinity in human terms has been determined to be an impossibility. Rationalists may balk at the idea but those who put their trust in God's perfect Word accept it without hesitation. Divine mysteries may not line up with man's need to understand everything in a logical manner but, then again, denying the obvious Biblical teaching of Trinitarianism is one that one will have to take up with God. It seems that He insists upon it, so any argument is mute.

This is a more modern essay in Baptist style. I fit in that category of it needs to make sense, denying the obvious Biblical teachings that don't make sense. If I insist of debating it then the argument is mute because you can't make sense out of something that does not. Only if you say it makes sense, then you come into my World, trying to defend something that I am told I need to take up with God as humans can't explain it. If we stay in our own Worlds then no argument or disagreement.

http://www.allaboutbaptists.com/doctrines_God_the_Holy_Spirit.html

My question is, If you believe you can't explain it in "HUMAN" terms as God gave the Word to man "Who is Human" then how did you come up with the idea in the first place? Any denying of biblical teaching is only because those teaching it have said that as humans we won't get it. I don't get it............

Another Mystery.


I hope this helps..

Mike.

Yes, that is what I was looking for and now I can continue with the point I was going to make. I had a strong feeling that you were taking things out of context with those stated doctrines of the Trinity, and I was right.

Notice the heading previous to the one you posted:

"II. SCRIPTURAL PROOFS OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY"

That is all that I have been doing. It seems apparent that you are confusing Scriptural proofs with fully comprehending and explaining the mystery of the Trinity, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

As I stated at least once already, the doctrine of the Trinity would never had been formulated if there was no Scriptural proof to begin with. I have consistently stated that the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that Scripture reveals about the nature of God.

I believe that God created everything and that Jesus is God Incarnate, born of a virgin. Why? Because the Bible says so. Is that the same as claiming to know how God created or how the Son of God could be born of a virgin and become the God-man? Not at all.

And that is no different than what I have been doing in this thread.

 

[Brother Mike]

I believe that God created everything and that Jesus is God Incarnate, born of a virgin. Why? Because the Bible says so. Is that the same as claiming to know how God created or how the Son of God could be born of a virgin and become the God-man? Not at all.

Umm, Trinity specifically states that the Son of God is a distinct, and separate person. God (As in the Father God?) being incarnate is a Oneness Doctrine. God manifest Himself of 3 different and distinct persons. God the ONE GOD Came as himself to become flesh. That is 1 in 3, Not 3 in 1.............

The 2nd person came down, the Son Jesus.

Oneness Doctrine states that One God became 3 and sent himself down, or God (The creator, Father, whatever) became Jesus in flesh. That is oneness doctrine.

Oneness Pentecostalism derives its distinctive name from its teaching on the Godhead, which is popularly referred to as the Oneness doctrine.[2] This doctrine states that there is one God, a singular spirit who manifests himself in many different ways, including as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct and eternal "persons" posited by Trinitarian theology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

I had a strong feeling that you were taking things out of context with those stated doctrines of the Trinity, and I was right.

I will ignore this comment............ I promised to be nice.

God incarnate into the Son is not Trinity Doctrine. That is 1 are 3, Not 3 are 1

I don't believe your in the oneness group. If you were them folks are very vocal about not believing in the Trinity version. You would have said something by now. Go and see the Doctrine of the Church you attend and ask them how it's worded. It's best if you follow the leadership of the place God has put you in.


You should stay away from the Word incarnate at all cost if you believe in Trinity. It's the 2nd person of the Godhead that came. I know, I was part of the Apostolic church. It gets down to mincing words.
The word works, until you get someone that knows the oneness doctrine that was made up in 1914.

Sorry I don't have a better version of Oneness but the Wikki. It's not like they are extremely popular. However you will noticed among those that believe in Trinity get the concepts mixed up not having heard this Doctrine.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[Free]

I believe that God created everything and that Jesus is God Incarnate, born of a virgin. Why? Because the Bible says so. Is that the same as claiming to know how God created or how the Son of God could be born of a virgin and become the God-man? Not at all.

Umm, Trinity specifically states that the Son of God is a distinct, and separate person. God (As in the Father God?) being incarnate is a Oneness Doctrine. God manifest Himself of 3 different and distinct persons. God the ONE GOD Came as himself to become flesh. That is 1 in 3, Not 3 in 1.............

The 2nd person came down, the Son Jesus.

Yes, I know. I have never said differently.

I had a strong feeling that you were taking things out of context with those stated doctrines of the Trinity, and I was right.

I will ignore this comment............ I promised to be nice.

God incarnate into the Son is not Trinity Doctrine. That is 1 are 3, Not 3 are 1

I don't believe your in the oneness group. If you were them folks are very vocal about not believing in the Trinity version. You would have said something by now. Go and see the Doctrine of the Church you attend and ask them how it's worded. It's best if you follow the leadership of the place God has put you in.


You should stay away from the Word incarnate at all cost if you believe in Trinity. It's the 2nd person of the Godhead that came. I know, I was part of the Apostolic church. It gets down to mincing words.
The word works, until you get someone that knows the oneness doctrine that was made up in 1914.

Sorry I don't have a better version of Oneness but the Wikki. It's not like they are extremely popular. However you will noticed among those that believe in Trinity get the concepts mixed up not having heard this Doctrine.

Blessings.

Mike.

I am well aware of the differences between Oneness/modalism and Trinitarianism. "Incarnate" is not at all a word exclusive to Oneness. It simply means:

1 a : invested with bodily and especially human nature and form
b : made manifest or comprehensible : embodied <a fiend incarnate>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incarnate

Jesus, God the Son, in human flesh. Just take a look at the Nicene Creed:

"Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man"

http://www.ccel.org/creeds/nicene.creed.html

Just because Oneness uses "incarnate" does not mean that it only pertains to Oneness. It was used long before they came along.

 

[Brother Mike]

Just because Oneness uses "incarnate" does not mean that it only pertains to Oneness. It was used long before they came along.

So your version is the Nicene creed? Are we clear on that?

I mean God incarnate is correct because Jesus is the 2nd person of the Godhead and God. However you hear it more in the Oneness doctrine because 1 God had to incarnate into 3 different roles.

Mike.

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. John 17:11 NIV


I don't care too much for the NIV, but I like the way it reads here.

Gads.................... NIV brother.............. ohhhhh.........It's hard to prove there is even a God in that, but I am with you, it does word things nicely at times, but I don't count on it to learn anything.

Mike.

 

[Free]

Just because Oneness uses "incarnate" does not mean that it only pertains to Oneness. It was used long before they came along.

So your version is the Nicene creed? Are we clear on that?

I was only using the Nicene version to show the use of incarnate....

 

[JLB]

Just because Oneness uses "incarnate" does not mean that it only pertains to Oneness. It was used long before they came along.

So your version is the Nicene creed? Are we clear on that?

I mean God incarnate is correct because Jesus is the 2nd person of the Godhead and God. However you hear it more in the Oneness doctrine because 1 God had to incarnate into 3 different roles.

Mike.

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. John 17:11 NIV


I don't care too much for the NIV, but I like the way it reads here.

Gads.................... NIV brother.............. ohhhhh.........It's hard to prove there is even a God in that, but I am with you, it does word things nicely at times, but I don't count on it to learn anything.

Mike.

I hear you.

By the way, whats the name of the Holy Spirit?


JLB

 

[Guest]

love.

 

[Eugene]

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Hi Brother Mike, and I believe you're replying to my post. Romans 3:21 is a future promise to the church. It comes to pass in Revelation 4:1-2. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (hereafter), and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory."

Mike, Jesus is presently setting in our Father's throne; Hebrews 12:2, "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Notice Revelation 3:21 again where Jesus is today. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne".

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Brother Mike]

I hear you.

By the way, whats the name of the Holy Spirit?

Ummm. Tell me.

He is never called God, Always been God's spirit, called the comforter which is a Title. He is Called the Helper, so if you have a precise name, let me in on it. However by the Greek Word and Hebrew Word for God He fits the definition of God. However, not an Angle, not us, Not the Father, and I don't really know. I know being filled with the Holy Spirit is our direct line to God or filled with the Spirit of God.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Notice Revelation 3:21 again where Jesus is today. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne".

With all due respect, those Churches He had written that to have long since vanished. They were located in Asia Minor. Where you see Him sitting on the right hand of God, I don't see them sitting in the same chair so to speak. I have not been there so you might be right, but I don't see it that way. God Calls the whole of Heaven His throne, so you might be right. I was just pointing out the two different thrones.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[MarkT]

How easily they dismiss knowledge. Instead of seeking and finding knowledge, which would be the wise and prudent thing to do, they preach an empty philosophy.

 

[MarkT]

They preach the oneness of God but do they know the LORD was not always one?

 

[Eugene]

Notice Revelation 3:21 again where Jesus is today. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne".

With all due respect, those Churches He had written that to have long since vanished. They were located in Asia Minor. Where you see Him sitting on the right hand of God, I don't see them sitting in the same chair so to speak. I have not been there so you might be right, but I don't see it that way. God Calls the whole of Heaven His throne, so you might be right. I was just pointing out the two different thrones.

Thanks for your reply Mike. You mention that the churches written to in Revelations Chapters Two and Three as long gone, but I propose that the church in all its condition described in those chapters of Revelation continue to exist as to our spirituality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Are all they of that time remaining alive today to be caught up?

To me this shows there will be a time where them asleep in Christ, and those remaining alive will be with the Lord regardless of their chronological time. Now I quote Revelation 3:10 with a promise to them which faithfully keep the word of God that they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world.

 

[Eugene]

They preach the oneness of God but do they know the LORD was not always one?

Mark, I sure have a problem attempting to decipher what you're attempting to say. Have you some scripture stating our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were not one?

 

[MarkT]

They preach the oneness of God but do they know the LORD was not always one?

Mark, I sure have a problem attempting to decipher what you're attempting to say. Have you some scripture stating our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were not one?

Hi Eugene.

In answer to your previous post, I would say the workman was created. I would not say Jesus was created. The light was the appearance of God on earth. It's not enough to say the light had the appearance of God. He was the appearance of God.

In answer to your last post, Isaiah 43:13 Thus says the LORD, "I am God, and henceforth I am He." This is when they became one. It means the LORD was not always one. I would say there was a time when in name the LORD was God and he was the appearance of God on earth. To the ancients the light was God.

 

[Eugene]

They preach the oneness of God but do they know the LORD was not always one?

Mark, I sure have a problem attempting to decipher what you're attempting to say. Have you some scripture stating our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were not one?

Hi Eugene.

In answer to your previous post, I would say the workman was created. I would not say Jesus was created. The light was the appearance of God on earth. It's not enough to say the light had the appearance of God. He was the appearance of God.

In answer to your last post, I would say there was a time when in name the LORD was God and he was the appearance of God on earth. To the ancients the light was God.

Please allow me to narrow this down. If possible be explicit. Thanks.
There was a time in name the LORD was God?
The workman was created?

 

[Brother Mike]

Thanks for your reply Mike. You mention that the churches written to in Revelations Chapters Two and Three as long gone, but I propose that the church in all its condition described in those chapters of Revelation continue to exist as to our spirituality.

No reason for Jesus to add it in there if that was not the case. Agreed.

To me this shows there will be a time where them asleep in Christ, and those remaining alive will be with the Lord regardless of their chronological time.

You say asleep as in Dead? Not some "soul Sleep"?

anyway this is a Trinity thread. We got a hot one over in the End times thread!!! woot!!!

Mark, I sure have a problem attempting to decipher what you're attempting to say. Have you some scripture stating our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were not one?

The argument is not about being one.

1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I believe this verse a forgery an fake out of the commona. However we can still apply how the bible looks at all being one, making the verse somewhat relevant because we have other examples of one in something.

Husband and wife are ONE Flesh.
Jesus said, I am one in the Father.
We are one in Jesus.
We are One body.
We have one mind, the mind of Christ.
They came together on ONE accord.

So though a forgery we have enough scriptures to compare and translate properly. The scripture is clear, there are 3. That are one. Just like the Husband and wife are One Flesh and the rest of the scriptures.

By comparing the other scriptures, there are still 3 of them that work as one. Not just ONE.

If I say there are 3 that get smashed into just ONE God. Then when Husband and wife get married they become One human.
Jesus is one in the Father We in him so that is 2 in one but we are not God the father.
We many have One mind, the mind of Christ but not Christ himself.

So, the issue is not the fact they are One, we have many other things put together and considered One. That is not the problem.

Please allow me to narrow this down. If possible be explicit. Thanks.
There was a time in name the LORD was God?
The workman was created?

YOu have to forgive me here. You both lost me. I can't contribute here as I am clueless.

God bless both you.

Mike.

 

[MarkT]

They preach the oneness of God but do they know the LORD was not always one?

Mark, I sure have a problem attempting to decipher what you're attempting to say. Have you some scripture stating our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were not one?

Hi Eugene.

In answer to your previous post, I would say the workman was created. I would not say Jesus was created. The light was the appearance of God on earth. It's not enough to say the light had the appearance of God. He was the appearance of God.

In answer to your last post, I would say there was a time when in name the LORD was God and he was the appearance of God on earth. To the ancients the light was God.

Please allow me to narrow this down. If possible be explicit. Thanks.
There was a time in name the LORD was God?
The workman was created?

Yeah. The workman was the first and the Christ was the last. By in name I mean the workman and God had the same name. 'I,I am the LORD. I,I am He. It's like an echo.

 

[Eugene]

You say asleep as in Dead? Not some "soul Sleep"?

Our spirit goes to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8), our body sleeps (Dig up any Christian you want to), and one day will be caught up. Many already experienced this in Matthew 27:51-52.