Is Jesus FULLY God & Praying

[lowrab777]

My answer hasn't changed since you first asked. They are co-equal to each other. That is what the term "co-equal" implies.

I'm willing to believe FREE does believe that there is one sovereign and supreme decision maker out of those three parts. I cannot express to you guys how many times the trinity doctrine has run me around in circles and I cannot stress to you how much I believe that it will continue to run other people around in circles as long as it is viewed as dogma to certain sects of Christianity.

Something I read once in the bible about simplicity, and taking fault, and not creating a stumbling block for a brother, and loving my neighbor as myself, lead me to believe that Constantines' Trinity in which he forced people to believe in at his counsels,
might very well be a MUTE POINT with GOD
REND YOUR HEART NOT TO THE DOCTRINES OF MEN

BUT INSTEAD UNTO THE ONE TRUE LIVING GOD

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION] The answer I'm looking for is that God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are co-equal with the thoughts of God the Father. That's what Brother Mike means when he says three Gods inside ONE BIG GOD. Two God deities per say inside ONE BIG GOD.

 

[lowrab777]

What are you not seeing.

really I hope you can love me like you should love yourself and have patience with me as far as the point of the HS being a person.
I really cannot see it that way,...
The way I see the Holy Spirit is as an extension of GOD the one and only GOD the one GOD that JESUS prayed to, the one GOD that I pray to by the vehicle of the holy spirit, and by the permission of the LAMB / OUR LORD AND SAVIOR / THE WORD, which is and was also a part of the one GOD.
You see scripture plainly proves that the element of GOD that was call the WORD did become a human being and live among us, therefor he is a person. And his singular entity did come out from GOD by the HOLY SPIRIT.
But scripture does not plainly state that the holy spirit apart from GOD and JESUS became a person in any way shape form or fassion, as far as I can tell.
And I do speak english and I can study greek to compare it with english and I dont care to much if you disagree with that,
It is up to you.
I love you guys and I will admit that I am not GOD and I could be mistaken on some of these matters, but as for now GOD has given me this wisdom and knowledge, And until he reveals something else to me,.. this is where I am.
Pray for me about it if you think you need to. As for me I feel like GOD will show you what he means for you to see, and he will show me what he means for me to see, and I can do very little if nothing at all to change that.
I am your brother and I will not try not to cause you guys to stumble.

PEACE!

 

[Guest]

The way I see the Holy Spirit is as an extension of GOD

Let's take this discussion a little bit slower. I do love you bro, and I will pray over you for this revelation. The Holy Spirit is in fact a person. There is also plenty of scripture to align with this, but scriptures will do you no good if you don't understand who God is first. So let's keep it simple.

First off, scripture plainly states that the Holy Spirit is a helper and comforter. Well......I'm helping you understand this and comforting you in saying that I love my brethren, so does that mean I can think for myself and have my own feelings. Yes. It's exactly the same thing when discussing the Holy Spirit. You say the Holy Spirit is an extension of God, but HOW is he an extension. What's the purpose of the Holy Spirit? What is the Holy Spirit's job? The Holy Spirit has a job to do, just like a person that goes to work every day. Are you starting to understand? The word God isn't just a three letter word in scrabble. God created babies, babies that turn into people, and he also created the universe and you don't think the Holy Spirit is also a person that thinks and feels?? God is alive in heaven my friend. ALIVE! Blessings.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=95373]lowrab777[/MENTION] The teaching that you did in this thread was amazing. Pg 3 and on.. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=50827&page=8 - You caught me off guard when you asked about the Holy Spirit. I thought I remembered you from somewhere. How are you doing man. Is everything ok?

 

[MarkT]

John saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on Jesus. And lo, a voice from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." John bore witness, "I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him." Jn. 1:32

John saw a dove. He didn't see a person. Is the 3rd person of the Trinity equal to a dove? Or perhaps the 3rd person of the Trinity is not a person at all. You're probably better off thinking of the 3rd person as a dove anyway.

 

[Brother Mike]

You state the Trinity is false but that Jesus is God, just as the Father is God. That is precisely what the Trinity states. Except that it goes further and acknowledges the Scriptural truth that there is only one God; that there only has ever been and only ever will be one God.

Your position is polytheism which goes against Scripture. You say you'll "stick with Scriptures," but you don't.

Free, this is your post............... Jesus is God......... your words. You now claim Jesus is just a person...

would you please address my Post you have ignored. I have you saying two different things now, flip flopping positions. You asked me to come back and I did. You should have just left it alone.

If you like, I will drop out of this. I am not here to make you look stupid, but just firmly believe something, anything..... Because right now your all over the place. Just say the Word, and I will drop out of this discussion. Otherwise please be kind to me and answer my post you have ignored.

I can refute the Trinity at any level. I have the doctrine itself that clearly tells you it's a mystery Free. If you believe there is one God, then fine. No more arguments. However if you really want to refute something that is a mystery then I will stay and do that.

You said way early in the Post Jesus is God, and the Father is God, now you back track. I believe you came into this unprepared. I don't think you ever examined why you believe what you believe. I think you felt is was 100% right and could be well defended. Your not talking to a JW or Moron here. I already told you the doctrine can't be defended and yet you don't believe that for some odd reason, even though the ones that made the doctrine said it can't be. Why is that?

If you believe in your heart there is only ONE GOD, then that is fine. You don't have to explain yourself and be questioned. It's what you believe, and there are scriptures that clearly back it up. If you want to defend something man came up with though, then your not defending scriptures, your defending what someone else wrote and their version of it.

Just say the Word, and I will be done. It's gotten out of hand at this point. Your all over the place, so give yourself a break.

Blessings..........

Mike.

 

[MarkT]

The word holy means set apart, as in, the people of Israel were a holy people set apart from the other tribes. The Holy Spirit is therefore set apart.

I would not have a problem with an image of a dove set apart from the birds of the air. Now if the Trinitarians would allow, the 1st person the LORD, the 2nd person the LORD, have the same name.

 

[Free]

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION] The answer I'm looking for is that God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are co-equal with the thoughts of God the Father. That's what Brother Mike means when he says three Gods inside ONE BIG GOD. Two God deities per say inside ONE BIG GOD.

They cannot be co-equal with the "thoughts of God the Father." Co-equal means they are all "equal with one another," hence the term co-equal.

It doesn't make sense to say that someone is co-equal with their own thoughts, never mind saying that others are as well. Not to mention that now you have introduced a fourth--the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Father's thoughts.

So, no, they are not co-equal with the Father's thoughts.

 

[Free]

John saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on Jesus. And lo, a voice from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." John bore witness, "I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him." Jn. 1:32

John saw a dove. He didn't see a person. Is the 3rd person of the Trinity equal to a dove? Or perhaps the 3rd person of the Trinity is not a person at all. You're probably better off thinking of the 3rd person as a dove anyway.

Your point is moot. The Holy Spirit is spirit, not a dove. Your argument that John didn't see a person but a dove would mean that you believe the Holy Spirit is a literal dove.

 

[Brother Mike]

I would not have a problem with an image of a dove set apart from the birds of the air. Now if the Trinitarians would allow, the 1st person the LORD, the 2nd person the LORD, have the same name.

I would have to go back and look again. The name would be Father, Word, Holy Spirit. Each doctrine of Trinity is different in how the 3 are defined. That is the issue, there is no set standard but what someone defined. Father, Word, and Holy Spirit is a scripture, Most don't use that language. In some versions of the Doctrine, Trying to keep the Son and Our Lord Jesus from being washed into a God goo, they define Jesus as Jesus, the Son, Not the father but 2nd person of the Trinity. If you don't define it that way, some folks get upset because they feel you diminish the Son who saved us by His precious blood.

When someone says I believe in Trinity, You ask? What version of it? I don't think many realize there are different version that make each of the 3 different by wording. Even Southern Baptist, their wording offends other Baptist. It's amazing ......... I was just reading the battle about this among Baptist. The pentecostal versions are not defined, and you can ask most of them and they could not begain to explain it to you because they have to take parts of all the defined one.

The AG version........ (Assemblies of God) Largest pentecostal group.

a. Terms Defined
The terms "Trinity" and "persons" as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in harmony with Scripture, whereby we may convey to others our immediate understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as distinguished from "gods many and lords many." We therefore may speak with propriety of the Lord our God who is One Lord, as a trinity or as one Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural.

There version can't be found in scriptures (Most of this type of language is included in all versions, Mystery, Puzzle and so on) They quote Paul but forget one of them........ God the father by whom all things consist and One Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things. They believe there are 3 and each are God, but there is One God.

I doubt we will find any other well defined version in the Charismatic circles.

So Mark, it would depend on the version you pick to see if your comparison would be acceptable. I think it best to say, I Believe In One God. Then just smile and wave. To go into a explanation you have to define who's explanation your trying to explain.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[lowrab777]

So Mark, it would depend on the version you pick to see if your comparison would be acceptable. I think it best to say, I Believe In One God. Then just smile and wave. To go into a explanation you have to define who's explanation your trying to explain.

Doctrines of men = STUMBLING BLOCK .:yes

 

[Free]

You state the Trinity is false but that Jesus is God, just as the Father is God. That is precisely what the Trinity states. Except that it goes further and acknowledges the Scriptural truth that there is only one God; that there only has ever been and only ever will be one God.

Your position is polytheism which goes against Scripture. You say you'll "stick with Scriptures," but you don't.

Free, this is your post............... Jesus is God......... your words. You now claim Jesus is just a person...

You really do not seem to be following the discussion and/or simply don't understand context. The fact that you think my position has changed proves this because my position has been consistent throughout the entire thread. I cannot help but think that either you don't understand what is meant by context or you don't understand how necessary it is or perhaps you just don't care about it. But whether reading Scripture, reading books, or reading posts in a forum such as this, you simply cannot read one thing at a time while ignoring the larger context of the whole.

Go back and re-read the definition of the Trinity that I gave. In fact, I suggest you go back and re-read every post I have made and take everything I have said within the context of all that I have said.

would you please address my Post you have ignored.

Which post? You'll have to point it out.

I have you saying two different things now, flip flopping positions. You asked me to come back and I did. You should have just left it alone.

Again, I have been saying the same things throughout this thread. Any perceived flip-flopping seems to be due to a lack of understanding on your part, not in anything that I've posted.

And, no, I did not ask you to come back.

If you like, I will drop out of this. I am not here to make you look stupid, but just firmly believe something, anything..... Because right now your all over the place. Just say the Word, and I will drop out of this discussion. Otherwise please be kind to me and answer my post you have ignored.

Do you think you've made me look stupid? lol

I can refute the Trinity at any level. I have the doctrine itself that clearly tells you it's a mystery Free. If you believe there is one God, then fine. No more arguments. However if you really want to refute something that is a mystery then I will stay and do that.

You have said this before yet I have not seen you refute anything yet.

You said way early in the Post Jesus is God, and the Father is God, now you back track. I believe you came into this unprepared. I don't think you ever examined why you believe what you believe. I think you felt is was 100% right and could be well defended. Your not talking to a JW or Moron here. I already told you the doctrine can't be defended and yet you don't believe that for some odd reason, even though the ones that made the doctrine said it can't be. Why is that?

If you believe in your heart there is only ONE GOD, then that is fine. You don't have to explain yourself and be questioned. It's what you believe, and there are scriptures that clearly back it up. If you want to defend something man came up with though, then your not defending scriptures, your defending what someone else wrote and their version of it.

Just say the Word, and I will be done. It's gotten out of hand at this point. Your all over the place, so give yourself a break.

Not at all. Again, any perceived back-tracking on my part, any being "all over the place," etc., seems to be due to a lack of understanding and/or inability to follow the discussion on your part. My position has been consistent.

 

[Free]

So Mark, it would depend on the version you pick to see if your comparison would be acceptable. I think it best to say, I Believe In One God. Then just smile and wave. To go into a explanation you have to define who's explanation your trying to explain.

Doctrines of men = STUMBLING BLOCK .:yes

And yet everything you believe is a doctrine of men, even if it is just of yourself. :yes

 

[lowrab777]

And yet everything you believe is a doctrine of men, even if it is just of yourself.

Exactly!!!!

Thats why we must all be willing to take fault as the scripture suggests

1Co_6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
Gal_6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.


I not try be the authority on the spiritual things of GOD, but instead witness what I know and let GOD do the rest.

Could my understanding be flawed,...? Of course it could be I AM A HUMAN BEING.
Therefor I cannot expect every other Christian to see things the way I do,..
And I can never condemn some one for trying to understand the Word of GOD the best way they can according to what GOD gives them.

But just because we disagree on theology doesnt make it impossible for us to be of the same body or believe the same faith / be of one mind.
TOMATO or TOMAUTO the fact is People have preferences people are different and as long as that is the case people will disagree with one another. FACT

Conider this.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Guest]

@Free The answer I'm looking for is that God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are co-equal with the thoughts of God the Father. That's what Brother Mike means when he says three Gods inside ONE BIG GOD. Two God deities per say inside ONE BIG GOD.

They cannot be co-equal with the "thoughts of God the Father." Co-equal means they are all "equal with one another," hence the term co-equal.

It doesn't make sense to say that someone is co-equal with their own thoughts, never mind saying that others are as well. Not to mention that now you have introduced a fourth--the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Father's thoughts.

So, no, they are not co-equal with the Father's thoughts.

Ok, but if their not co-equal with each others thoughts, then HOW are they co-equal with each other?

 

[Free]

@Free The answer I'm looking for is that God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are co-equal with the thoughts of God the Father. That's what Brother Mike means when he says three Gods inside ONE BIG GOD. Two God deities per say inside ONE BIG GOD.

They cannot be co-equal with the "thoughts of God the Father." Co-equal means they are all "equal with one another," hence the term co-equal.

It doesn't make sense to say that someone is co-equal with their own thoughts, never mind saying that others are as well. Not to mention that now you have introduced a fourth--the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Father's thoughts.

So, no, they are not co-equal with the Father's thoughts.

Ok, but if their not co-equal with each others thoughts, then HOW are they co-equal with each other?

It simply means that they are each fully, or truly, God, with none above the others and none subordinate to the others.

 

[Guest]

It simply means that they are each fully, or truly, God, with none above the others and none subordinate to the others.

There are not three Gods. Period.

 

[Free]

It simply means that they are each fully, or truly, God, with none above the others and none subordinate to the others.

There are not three Gods. Period.

Each of the three Persons are fully God (same nature and essence), not each fully a God. Try reading this:

http://www.monergism.com/Trinity.html

And this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

There is a lot of information out there.

 

[Guest]

Each of the three Persons are fully God (same nature and essence), not each fully A God. Try reading this:

I don't need to read it. I know what you mean. I can agree with this statement. Very good. :nod