Is the Son not in the bosom of the Father? John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
Jesus said the Father is greater than I. That crushes the co-equal thing.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Is the Son not in the bosom of the Father? John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
Jesus said the Father is greater than I. That crushes the co-equal thing.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
- Thread starter
- #342
[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION]..................... OK free.
We are back at square one again. You claim I have contradicted myself, I claim that you have. I never said I made you look stupid though. It will all come down to you hitting the wall of explaining the Mystery part anyway. No matter how many scriptures we use to get there.
God the Father on the Throne, Like Red crystal, both described in Eze and rev 4 Your Father is described twice in perfect detail as a translucent being of red crystal and brilliance.
Your big Brother, Jesus has hair as Wool, Eyes like fire. He is as brass and His voice sounds as many waterfalls. Our God, Our King of Kings. Sitting on His throne, by whom the father Gave him glory before the foundation of the world.
If you insistent on just counting 1 of them. Fine by me. I count different than you do. I don't deny the Mystery part of the doctrine itself. It's there, I have to deal with it, no matter what version you pick. You pick the best version to make your point I guess, but you still hit the same wall every single time.
I would like to discuss this more in Love, but I feel that may not be possible. One thing I do know that it don't matter who is right without Love. We both sound like someone beating trash cans in the ally.
My examination was of the doctrines themselves. I don't buy into the Mystery part but agree with (Most of them) until it's time to do the math. That is my stance.
If you want to be right, fine. Your right. I can't continue as it's hard knowing your my Brother in this manner.
God bless you Free. We can just answer others giving them a unique perspective to this amazing Doctrine that was formed over 100's of years into what it is today.
If this was a thread about the Blood of Jesus washes away our sin, and only through Jesus our Lord can we be saved, it would not be 23 pages long.......... Think about that.
Mike.
We are back at square one again. You claim I have contradicted myself, I claim that you have. I never said I made you look stupid though. It will all come down to you hitting the wall of explaining the Mystery part anyway. No matter how many scriptures we use to get there.
God the Father on the Throne, Like Red crystal, both described in Eze and rev 4 Your Father is described twice in perfect detail as a translucent being of red crystal and brilliance.
Your big Brother, Jesus has hair as Wool, Eyes like fire. He is as brass and His voice sounds as many waterfalls. Our God, Our King of Kings. Sitting on His throne, by whom the father Gave him glory before the foundation of the world.
If you insistent on just counting 1 of them. Fine by me. I count different than you do. I don't deny the Mystery part of the doctrine itself. It's there, I have to deal with it, no matter what version you pick. You pick the best version to make your point I guess, but you still hit the same wall every single time.
I would like to discuss this more in Love, but I feel that may not be possible. One thing I do know that it don't matter who is right without Love. We both sound like someone beating trash cans in the ally.
My examination was of the doctrines themselves. I don't buy into the Mystery part but agree with (Most of them) until it's time to do the math. That is my stance.
If you want to be right, fine. Your right. I can't continue as it's hard knowing your my Brother in this manner.
God bless you Free. We can just answer others giving them a unique perspective to this amazing Doctrine that was formed over 100's of years into what it is today.
If this was a thread about the Blood of Jesus washes away our sin, and only through Jesus our Lord can we be saved, it would not be 23 pages long.......... Think about that.
Mike.
- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,656
- 6,015
I'm not sure what that has to do with whether or not the Father and the Son are equal.
Only if you take that verse on its own, completely divorcing it from the rest of Scripture and ignoring the clear passages regarding the deity of Jesus.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
- Thread starter
- #344
Jesus is not the Father or creator. He did not send himself, the Father did. Jesus never made any remark saying He is greater than His father but the opposite. He did say though, If you seen me, you have seen the Father. A very strong indication that Jesus having spent all that time with the Father think and operate alike.
The co-equal is a Trinity Term and not used in every Trinity Doctrine. Let this mind be in use that was also in Christ Jesus who thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Here we are told to think the same way Jesus thought, that we are equal with God. I think that would be a good starting point to where we would be equal as He was Equal as we have the Mind of Christ.
I would think more about them being Father and Son, equal in that respect.
Mike.
- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,656
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I must call you on this one. We are never once told in Scripture that we are equal to God nor are we ever told to think we are. That is not at all the thrust of Phil 2. What hubris to think that the creature can be equal with the Creator. Context is everything, so let's look at the context:
Php 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)
While this is a good passage supporting the deity of Jesus and there is much to be pointed out, the main point of this passage is humility. That's Paul's whole reason for saying that the believers were to "have this mind among yourselves."
He first says for each believer to "Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves," and to "look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." This is clearly all about humility. Those two verses then are what lead into Paul's comments about Jesus, who "was in the form of God...but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself."
So what's the thrust of this passage? Not at all that we are to think we are equal with God. The whole point is that even though Jesus was God in nature, he willingly humbled himself to take on the nature of a creature, a servant, to die for the purpose of redeeming creation. That is the greatest humility ever shown, that God would willingly take on the form of one of his creatures. That is the mind we are to have.
lowrab777
Member
- Mar 9, 2013
- 359
- 16
JESUS is the creator!
HE is not the Father!
JESUS is our Technician.
HE CREATED US according to the will of the Father and according to
His own will.
This earth and the humans here is and always has been his project.
That is why He was willing to save this creation by the sacrifice of his Glory.
His delight was in the Light of men.
The Father allowed this and agreed that IT IS GOOD!
They both knew that his blood shed would have to take place and still they agreed it was worth it. And so the Words / JESUS'S Atonement, Hard Work , and Sacrifice was established even from the foundations of the earth.
GOD KNEW,. THE WORD KNEW,.
It would have to be done for the birth of there sons and daughters,..
and they agreed AS ONE, even as man and woman become one flesh so God and Jesus are ONE in Spirit. / Will.
By our Saviors sacrifice we are borne of the Spirit.
I speak to you in Spiritual terms,...
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Jesus and God are not man and woman as we were created they do not abide by the gender laws that we were created by. As some false religions teach of their deities.
We were created in their image,... they are one, Elohim created us,....
Not them created in our image,... we did not create Elohim,...
They simply are together as one performing the same will they are and have always been ELOHIM accomplishing their will by the implementation of the Holy Spirit.
This is and has been the case from the Beginning.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him,
Pro 8:30 Then I was with him, his master craftsman—I was his delight daily, continuously rejoicing in his presence,
Pro 8:30 Then I wasH1961 byH681 him, as one brought upH525 with him: and I wasH1961 dailyH3117 H3117 his delight,H8191 rejoicingH7832 alwaysH3605 H6256 beforeH6440 him;
H525
אמון
'âmôn
aw-mone'
From H539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like H542): - one brought up.
HE is not the Father!
JESUS is our Technician.
HE CREATED US according to the will of the Father and according to
His own will.
This earth and the humans here is and always has been his project.
That is why He was willing to save this creation by the sacrifice of his Glory.
His delight was in the Light of men.
The Father allowed this and agreed that IT IS GOOD!
They both knew that his blood shed would have to take place and still they agreed it was worth it. And so the Words / JESUS'S Atonement, Hard Work , and Sacrifice was established even from the foundations of the earth.
GOD KNEW,. THE WORD KNEW,.
It would have to be done for the birth of there sons and daughters,..
and they agreed AS ONE, even as man and woman become one flesh so God and Jesus are ONE in Spirit. / Will.
By our Saviors sacrifice we are borne of the Spirit.
I speak to you in Spiritual terms,...
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Jesus and God are not man and woman as we were created they do not abide by the gender laws that we were created by. As some false religions teach of their deities.
We were created in their image,... they are one, Elohim created us,....
Not them created in our image,... we did not create Elohim,...
They simply are together as one performing the same will they are and have always been ELOHIM accomplishing their will by the implementation of the Holy Spirit.
This is and has been the case from the Beginning.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him,
Pro 8:30 Then I was with him, his master craftsman—I was his delight daily, continuously rejoicing in his presence,
Pro 8:30 Then I wasH1961 byH681 him, as one brought upH525 with him: and I wasH1961 dailyH3117 H3117 his delight,H8191 rejoicingH7832 alwaysH3605 H6256 beforeH6440 him;
H525
אמון
'âmôn
aw-mone'
From H539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like H542): - one brought up.
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- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,656
- 6,015
Yes, it has the meaning of "not something to be forcibly retained or held on to." And this fits very well the context of the passage that I have given above.
Let me ask you a question Mike. Are you the physical body or the thinker who sees the physical body?
It means it is not a thing you can grasp. It's not something you can attain. Jesus said the Father is greater than all. There's no one greater. He has no equal. You can not attain equality with God.
Jesus never tried to be God. He never thought he was God or that he was equal to God or that he could be equal to God. Unlike Satan.
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B
Brother Mike
Guest
- Thread starter
- #352
Ummm. I am not sure I understand the Question. It is clear Jesus always gave reverence to the Father. In my fathers house, He would say. Not his house, but His fathers. Even in Rev after He ascended back to the Father and was given all things we still see that utmost respect.
If they are exactly Equal then we have no mediator. The Holy Spirit makes it very clear that it takes TWO!!! to mediate. Trinity folks can only count one.
I believe by Nature they are Equal, Just as we are told to be perfect Like God but it came off as Love you enemies, so that would be by Nature. Just be liked Daddy. In that sense equal does not put power into the equation.
So, reword the question, I got lost here. However, I use the KJV (Trinity Bible) The point above makes me look at that statement again. Thank you Brothers for bringing this out for me.
Php 2:6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [ possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [c] think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [d] or retained,
Php 2:6 To whom, though himself in the form of God, it did not seem that to take for oneself was to be like God;
Some translations make it sound He thought it OK to be equal with God.
Very interesting.
Thank you guys.
God bless.
Mike.
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- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,656
- 6,015
Ignoring, for now, that you are once again taking Jesus' statement out context from the entirety of Scripture, it must be pointed out that you are also ignoring the immediate context of Phil 2, which I have given.
Your understanding of Phil 2:6 simply and clearly does not fit the context, at all. It most certainly can mean "not something to be forcibly retained or held onto." That is a legitimate definition and one that coheres perfectly with the context.
Hey sorry about the caps :nod
lowrab777
Member
- Mar 9, 2013
- 359
- 16
Jesus is the creator!
He is not the father!
Jesus is our technician.
He created us according to the will of the father and according to
his own will.
This earth and the humans here is and always has been his project.
That is why he was willing to save this creation by the sacrifice of his glory.
His delight was in the light of men.
The father allowed this and agreed that it is good!
They both knew that his blood shed would have to take place and still they agreed it was worth it. and so the Words / Jesus's atonement, hard work , and sacrifice was established even from the foundations of the earth.
God knew,. the Word knew,.
It would have to be done for the birth of there sons and daughters,..
And they agreed as one, even as man and woman become one flesh so God and Jesus are one in spirit / will.
By our saviors sacrifice we are borne of the spirit.
I speak to you in spiritual terms,...
gen 1:27 so god created man in his own image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.
Jesus and God are not man and woman as we were created they do not abide by the gender laws that we were created by. as some false religions teach of their deities.
We were created in their image,...they are one , Elohim created us,....
Not them created in our image,... we did not create Elohim,...
They simply are together as one performing the same will they are and have always been Elohim accomplishing their will by the implementation of the holy spirit.
This is and has been the case from the beginning.
gen 1:1 in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
gen 1:2 and the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. and the spirit of god moved upon the face of the waters.
gen 1:3 and god said, let there be light: and there was light.
joh 1:1 in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.
joh 1:2 the same was in the beginning with god.
joh 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
joh 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
joh 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
pro 8:22 the lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
pro 8:23 i was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
pro 8:24 when there were no depths, i was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled, before the hills was i brought forth:
pro 8:26 while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
pro 8:27 when he prepared the heavens, i was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
pro 8:29 when he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
pro 8:30 then i was by him, as one brought up with him: and i was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
pro 8:31 rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
pro 8:30 then i was by him, as a master workman; and i was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him,
pro 8:30 then i was with him, his master craftsman—i was his delight daily, continuously rejoicing in his presence,
pro 8:30 then i wash1961 byh681 him, as one brought uph525 with him: and i wash1961 dailyh3117 h3117 his delight,h8191 rejoicingh7832 alwaysh3605 h6256 beforeh6440 him;
h525
אמון
'âmôn
aw-mone'
from h539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like h542): - one brought up.
JESUS is the architect / designer.
He is not the father!
Jesus is our technician.
He created us according to the will of the father and according to
his own will.
This earth and the humans here is and always has been his project.
That is why he was willing to save this creation by the sacrifice of his glory.
His delight was in the light of men.
The father allowed this and agreed that it is good!
They both knew that his blood shed would have to take place and still they agreed it was worth it. and so the Words / Jesus's atonement, hard work , and sacrifice was established even from the foundations of the earth.
God knew,. the Word knew,.
It would have to be done for the birth of there sons and daughters,..
And they agreed as one, even as man and woman become one flesh so God and Jesus are one in spirit / will.
By our saviors sacrifice we are borne of the spirit.
I speak to you in spiritual terms,...
gen 1:27 so god created man in his own image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.
Jesus and God are not man and woman as we were created they do not abide by the gender laws that we were created by. as some false religions teach of their deities.
We were created in their image,...they are one , Elohim created us,....
Not them created in our image,... we did not create Elohim,...
They simply are together as one performing the same will they are and have always been Elohim accomplishing their will by the implementation of the holy spirit.
This is and has been the case from the beginning.
gen 1:1 in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth.
gen 1:2 and the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. and the spirit of god moved upon the face of the waters.
gen 1:3 and god said, let there be light: and there was light.
joh 1:1 in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.
joh 1:2 the same was in the beginning with god.
joh 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
joh 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
joh 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
pro 8:22 the lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
pro 8:23 i was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
pro 8:24 when there were no depths, i was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled, before the hills was i brought forth:
pro 8:26 while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
pro 8:27 when he prepared the heavens, i was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
pro 8:29 when he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
pro 8:30 then i was by him, as one brought up with him: and i was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
pro 8:31 rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
pro 8:30 then i was by him, as a master workman; and i was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him,
pro 8:30 then i was with him, his master craftsman—i was his delight daily, continuously rejoicing in his presence,
pro 8:30 then i wash1961 byh681 him, as one brought uph525 with him: and i wash1961 dailyh3117 h3117 his delight,h8191 rejoicingh7832 alwaysh3605 h6256 beforeh6440 him;
h525
אמון
'âmôn
aw-mone'
from h539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like h542): - one brought up.
JESUS is the architect / designer.
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B
Brother Mike
Guest
- Thread starter
- #356
The Son created everything? I have 4 scriptures that says He did not. The rest sounds good though. The KJV does make Him Creator but was not consistent. Jesus is also a Heir, of all things His Father created, by Jesus whom the father made the worlds. He did not make everything being His, and become an Heir to it. Right? That would not make much sense.
Your taking Jesus to mean the "Literal Word" His name means the Word in Rev, God sent his son in the last days to speak His word. Jesus always said I only Speak what I hear my father Speak.
I have not seen this Position, but heard the term in WOF camps "Jesus is the Word"
Robbers take. They don't retain. Since when does a robber retain? The RSV has it, 'who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." The best understanding is equality with God is not something to be stolen or grasped. It's not a thing to be taken from God. Also it is not something that can be attained.
Also Paul did not say he was God in nature. He said he was in the form of God. Speaking of context, you can not create the context and say it fits the context.
Jesus said the Father is greater than I, and everything in the Bible must be seen in that light. Therefore the Trinity context and the co-equal thing is crushed.
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lowrab777
Member
- Mar 9, 2013
- 359
- 16
I really think thats what the scripture says here,...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
At least thats what I read any way.
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We have more!
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds
B
Brother Mike
Guest
- Thread starter
- #360
Right, in the beginning there was the Word, with God, was God the same (verse 2)
John used with God, was God, the same as God.
It's a hard passage for Trinity and Non Trinity. We can't put (a) God that is not in the Greek. The word was God, the same.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
John reverts back to the same was with God in the very beginning. Jesus is God, with God, always been with God, is the Word the same as God.
John keeps them both equal and same but with each other. God in the last days sent his son to speak the Word. God is sending His Word, the same that was with God at the beginning.
Rev_19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
So, God sends the son, the word, spoken to us through the son, who's name means the Word. Whom was with God at the begging. John is the one that Called Jesus the True God, The Word sent that was with God from the begging.
Jesus only Spoke what he heard his father say, so Jesus is not the literal Word, or spiritual Word. The Word is spirit. Yet, Jesus is the Word that God sent, Is God.
The Word was born............................. God did it. The Word of God was made flesh, the only begotten of the Father.
I want to translate this without a doctrine in the way. The Word was made flesh, This is how the Word was begotten, or how Jesus came. It was not by men, or by flesh, but by the spoken Word.
The Word also made everything else we see around us, God made it though the spoken Word. An account of How Jesus was divinely begotten in Flesh. Not Jesus being the literal Word because flesh is not the Word, the Word is spirit and life. Jesus is also the sent Word of God for us, by whom God used to speak His word to us in these last days.
John gives us a description of How Jesus came, and why He came. God's Word was sent to us. He sent his Word through Mary, not by the will of man. Mary became pregnant because God said.....
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
So, the Word that was Made flesh came from something God said or spoken and it was fulfilled. Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.....................
Hence John said...........
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Word made flesh was something coming to pass As God said it would being fulfilled that Jesus was begotten by God through Mary by the spoken Word. It takes a (Trinity) doctrine to mess up How we understand God speaking something and it coming to pass and this day this scripture is fulfilled before us all.
Doctrines Blind and make us change our consistency in how we translate the Word. We have to be careful. No other place something God spoke and it was fulfilled would we call it part of the Trinity. Only in this one verse of scriptures to those that Believe in Trinity twist it around and become inconsistent in their understanding of something Spoken and coming to pass. All the other scriptures that were fulfilled they gain back their common sense and understand that if God speaks, it happens.
This is What John is saying. Jesus did not come into the World by human will, or by the normal way people are born. God spoke His Word, and Mary Got pregnant by that spoken Word, by God, not man.
Jesus the Creator?
The KJV does make Jesus the Creator. So, it would be natural to believe that. I myself only use the KJV, I think it's the best translation, hands down. The problem is that the scribes of the KJV did their best to included the Trinity Doctrine where they could. It makes sense because they felt the Doctrine was correct and no need to confuse anyone. Give them the proper understanding according to what is right.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Both these scriptures clearly make Jesus the Creator. It does not explain How Jesus is an heir though of what God the Father created. The KJV writers also missed a scripture.
Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
In this verse God the Father made everything for his son, through His son and because of His son. This does not make Jesus creator. Jesus also is a heir of all things created, we are joint heir with Him. He can't be creator and be a joint heir with us.
However this contradicts those other 2 scriptures. ..... Thank you KJV scribes for your Trinity Doctrine!!!!
What they did was take the Greek Word DIA and just translate it into "BY" Everything was made "BY" Jesus.
That is sort of correct, but the reader can be confused.
dia= BY
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; by reason of, by the act of, through something, because of something. By the means of something, By the grounds of something.
Something done through something else. (Strongs and Thayer)
YLT: (Youngs Literal translation)
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
God made everything through Jesus, for Jesus, because of Jesus and For Jesus.
Now that lines up with the KJV that God made the worlds through, for, because of Jesus. Whom He gave Jesus all things, by which through Jesus is also Joint heir, with us.
I hope this made sense. Sorry it was to long.
Mike.