Is Jesus God Almighty, Everlasting Father?

[SpiritualSon]

God testified of the Son and the Son testified of the Comforter and the Comforter testified of truth. If these were not three separate beings united in one spirit, then all their testimonies would be lies.

They needed to be separate to give authority to their testimonies. One man testifying of himself could be a liar, but two men established truth.

God is not a man but he came in the body of one - therefore he was a being separate from God. If Jesus was God in the flesh then his very presence would have destoryed all of mankind. I can agree the spirit was the same but the beings were separate.

There just my thoughts. :D

The Lord operates of Himself from the Father, and not the reverse. To operate here means the same as sending the Holy Spirit

In the Word of the Old Testament the Holy Spirit is nowhere mentioned, and the "Spirit of Holiness" in three places only, once in David Ps. 51:11; and twice in Isaiah 43:10, 11). But in the Word of the New Testament, both in the Gospels and in the Acts of the Apostles, as also in their Epistles it is mentioned frequently. This is because the Holy Spirit first was, when the Lord had come into the world; for it goes forth out of Him from the Father; for:
The Lord alone is Holy Revelation 15:4
therefore also the angel Gabriel said to Mary the mother:
The holy thing that shall be born of thee Luke 1:35.
It is said:
The Holy Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified John 7:39
although it is previously declared that the Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth Luke 1:41, and Zacharias (Luke 1:67), as also Simeon (Luke 2:25).This is because the Spirit of Jehovah the Father filled them, which was called the Holy Spirit because of the Lord who was already in the world.

This is why nowhere in the Word of the Old Testament is it said that the prophets spoke from the Holy Spirit, but from Jehovah; for everywhere we read, "Jehovah spoke unto me," "The Word of Jehovah came unto me," "Jehovah said," "Thus said Jehovah." That no one may be in doubt about this I will refer to the passages in Jeremiah alone, where these expressions occur: Jeremiah 1:4-19;

If I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go away, I will send him to you. John 16:7.

hARRY :fadein:

 

[SpiritualSon]

I want to keep this topic alive.

Some Christians say, "Why didn't Jesus Himself say He was the Father?"
The answer to this question is so completely summed up in Philippians 2:5-8. He was humble. He did not think it a good thing to flaunt his deity before men. He did not choose to appear better than man, although he was better than all men for he was the creator of all men. He choose, instead, to have all men appear better than himself. John 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

When Jesus spoke of the Father it was always in a way that distanced his own identity from that of Father God. This action was in keeping with his character of not appearing as God, although he was. Concerning this very subject Jesus made the following promise: "These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall not more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father: John 16:25. Paul referred to this same event of revelation when he wrote unto Timothy, "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and the Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen" 1 Timothy 6:15-16.
In Revelation, concerning the white horse, Jesus Christ was call Lord of Lords and King of kings. There is only one God, one Lord, one King, one Saviour and one Redeemer.This God is Our Lord Jesus Christ

Harry :fadein:

 

[Klee shay]

God testified of the Son and the Son testified of the Comforter and the Comforter testified of truth. If these were not three separate beings united in one spirit, then all their testimonies would be lies.

They needed to be separate to give authority to their testimonies. One man testifying of himself could be a liar, but two men established truth.

God is not a man but he came in the body of one - therefore he was a being separate from God. If Jesus was God in the flesh then his very presence would have destoryed all of mankind. I can agree the spirit was the same but the beings were separate.

There just my thoughts. :D

In the following scripture, why did the Jews pick up stones to kill Jesus with?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them,[coilor=red] Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.[/color] 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:54-59

I'm guessing they thought he was a heathen/pagan for placing himself before their Father Abraham. He was afterall, in flesh, only a man as they were.

 

[Klee shay]

The Lord operates of Himself from the Father, and not the reverse. To operate here means the same as sending the Holy Spirit

And this cannot be achieved in the same unified spirit? Why then was Jesus baptised? What fell upon him as a dove when he rose from the water?

 

[SpiritualSon]

The Lord operates of Himself from the Father, and not the reverse. To operate here means the same as sending the Holy Spirit

And this cannot be achieved in the same unified spirit? Why then was Jesus baptised? What fell upon him as a dove when he rose from the water?

Klee shay,
We read that when Jesus was baptised, the heavens were opened and John saw the Holy Spirit coming down in the form of a dove Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:21; John 1:32,33. This was because baptism stands for regeneration and cleansing, and so does a dove. How can anyone fail to see that the dove was not the Holy Spirit, nor was the Holy Spirit in the dove? In heaven doves are often to be seen, and the angels know that, when they are, they are correspondences of affections and consequently of thoughts about regeneration and cleansing in the minds of some bystanders. So as soon as they approach them and engage them in conversation about any subject other than what they were thinking about when they appeared, the doves immediately vanish. This is similar to many of the visions seen by the prophets, as for instance John's vision of the Lamb on Mount Zion Rev. 14:1 and elsewhere.

Is there anyone who does not know that the Lord was not the Lamb, nor in it, but that the Lamb was a representation of His innocence? This makes clear as daylight the error of those who deduce the three persons of the Trinity from the dove seen over the Lord at His baptism, and the voice then heard from heaven saying, 'This is my beloved Son.' The way the Lord brings about a person's regeneration by faith and charity is meant by what John the Baptist said:

I baptise you with water for repentance, but he who will come after me will baptise with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Matt. 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16.

To baptise with the Holy Spirit and with fire is to regenerate by means of the Divine truth of faith and by means of the Divine good of charity. The following words of the Lord have a similar meaning:

Unless a person has been born by water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. John 3:5.

Water here as elsewhere in the Word means truth in the natural or external man; spirit means truth arising from good in the spiritual or internal man.

The book of Genesis represents the regeneration of man, born again, palingenesis, life from death. A person is dead before they are regenerated by the Lord's Holy Spirit.

Harry

 

[Free]

We read that when Jesus was baptised, the heavens were opened and John saw the Holy Spirit coming down in the form of a dove Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:21; John 1:32,33. This was because baptism stands for regeneration and cleansing, and so does a dove. How can anyone fail to see that the dove was not the Holy Spirit, nor was the Holy Spirit in the dove?

You reading what you are writing Harry?

In heaven doves are often to be seen, and the angels know that, when they are, they are correspondences of affections and consequently of thoughts about regeneration and cleansing in the minds of some bystanders. So as soon as they approach them and engage them in conversation about any subject other than what they were thinking about when they appeared, the doves immediately vanish.

Where do you get this from?

 

[SpiritualSon]

We read that when Jesus was baptised, the heavens were opened and John saw the Holy Spirit coming down in the form of a dove Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:21; John 1:32,33. This was because baptism stands for regeneration and cleansing, and so does a dove. How can anyone fail to see that the dove was not the Holy Spirit, nor was the Holy Spirit in the dove?

You reading what you are writing Harry?

In heaven doves are often to be seen, and the angels know that, when they are, they are correspondences of affections and consequently of thoughts about regeneration and cleansing in the minds of some bystanders. So as soon as they approach them and engage them in conversation about any subject other than what they were thinking about when they appeared, the doves immediately vanish.

Where do you get this from?

I get it from the writings of Swedenborg. The dove is not the Holy Spirit, it only represents it. The Word was written in correspondences.
Correspondences are the spiritual sense of the Word.

Without the spiritual sense no one would know why the prophet Jeremiah was commanded
To buy himself a girdle, and put it on his loins; and not to draw it through the waters, but to hide it in a hole of the rock by Euphrates, Jeremiah 13:1-7.

Or why the prophet Isaiah was commanded
To loose the sackcloth from off his loins, and put the shoe from off his foot, and go naked and barefoot three years Isaiah 20:2-3.

Or why the prophet Ezekiel was commanded
To pass a razor upon his head and upon his beard, and afterwards to divide the hairs, and burn a third part in the midst of the city, smite a third part with the sword, scatter a third part in the wind, and bind a few of them in his skirts, and at last throw them into the midst of the fire Ezekiel 5:1-4.

Or why the same prophet was commanded to lie upon his left side three hundred and ninety days, and upon his right side forty days, and to make himself a cake of wheat, and barley, and millet, and spelt, with the dung of an ox, and eat it; and in the meantime to raise a rampart and a mound against Jerusalem, and besiege it Ezekiel 4:1-15.

Why the prophet Hosea was twice commanded
To take to himself a harlot for a wife Hosea 1:2-9; Hosea 3:2-3).

Harry :fadein:

 

[lecoop]

SpiritualSon says

How can anyone fail to see that the dove was not the Holy Spirit, nor was the Holy Spirit in the dove?

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

How can anyone fail to read such plain English? What or who was descending?
Answer: the Holy Spirit. Not a dove, but the Holy Spirit, seen in appearance as a dove. The HS was not in a dove; neither was there a real dove. It was the Holy Spirit, the third person of the trinity.

Jesus and the HS could not be one and the same, for then the HS would be descending onto Himself: impossible. Where did the voice come from? It said the voice came from heaven. Was it an angel speaking? No, for if that were the case, Jesus would be the son of an angel. No, the voice came from heaven from Father God, the first person of the trinity. Jesus did not "throw his voice." No, the voice came from heaven. God the Father, the first person of the trinity, was at that very time, in heaven, and spoke to all those that saw Jesus get baptized. What did He say? "This is my beloved Son..." Who was HE referring to? He was referring to Jesus, the second person of the trinity, who had just been baptized.

Now, how many persons of God did we count?
1. God the father speaking from heaven.
2. Jesus the Christ, who had just been baptized, and on whom the HS was now descending.
3. The Holy Spirit Himself, who was descending upon Jesus.

Hmm. Three equals three. Can you see why the Church has said that God is a triune God? It is because He is a God in three persons just as we are a human in three persons created in His image. We are Spirit, soul, and body. He is God the Father (voice from heaven), God the son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit (descending down on Jesus.)

What could be simpler? I believe a 3rd grader could get this. One God in three persons.

Coop

 

[Free]

I get it from the writings of Swedenborg. The dove is not the Holy Spirit, it only represents it.

Oh right, Swedenborg. The Holy Spirit is the dove:

Mat 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; (ESV)

Mar 1:10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opening and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. (ESV)

Luk 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." (ESV)

Joh 1:32,33 And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'" (ESV)

It was the Holy Spirit that came down from heaven; this is absolutely and plainly clear from Scripture. Also, notice that it only says "like a dove," not "in the form of a dove". And this is consistent through all four gospels.

Without the spiritual sense

There is no "spiritual sense" in this instance. The Holy Spirit descended from heaven onto Christ, plain and simple. You really should stop reading Swedenborg; he is a heretic.

 

[SpiritualSon]

I get it from the writings of Swedenborg. The dove is not the Holy Spirit, it only represents it.

Oh right, Swedenborg. The Holy Spirit is the dove:

Mat 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; (ESV)

Mar 1:10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opening and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. (ESV)

Luk 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." (ESV)

Joh 1:32,33 And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'" (ESV)

It was the Holy Spirit that came down from heaven; this is absolutely and plainly clear from Scripture. Also, notice that it only says "like a dove," not "in the form of a dove". And this is consistent through all four gospels.

Without the spiritual sense

There is no "spiritual sense" in this instance. The Holy Spirit descended from heaven onto Christ, plain and simple. You really should stop reading Swedenborg; he is a heretic.

When Jesus was baptized, the heavens were opened, and He saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:21-22; John 1:32-33). It saids, like a dove, not as a dove, which means it is only representing the Holy Spirit, not being the Holy Spirit. God is a Man, not an animal. Would you get on you knees and pray to an animal? An animal is a represent ative of man's thoughts and affection, good or bad. A dove is a representative of purification and regeneration by means of Divine Truth of the Word.

Stop calling Swedenborg a heretic.
Harry

 

[Michael A Disciple]

On Jesus baptism:

If the Father spoke to Jesus at his baptism or ANYTIME for that matter as one person of the Godhead to another person of the Godhead how is that Monotheism?

God speaking to God yields 2 gods. Did God need to be baptized in water? Far be it. But MAN does need to submit to Gods program (baptism) and be obedient to him.

And THAT is the explanation. Jesus was both God and man. His existence in heaven was as the Father. His existence on Earth was as a man.

This scripture clears up that mystery.

13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

Jesus was in Heaven and Earth both at the same time.

 

[Free]

When Jesus was baptized, the heavens were opened, and He saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:21-22; John 1:32-33). It saids, like a dove, not as a dove, which means it is only representing the Holy Spirit, not being the Holy Spirit. God is a Man, not an animal. Would you get on you knees and pray to an animal? An animal is a represent ative of man's thoughts and affection, good or bad. A dove is a representative of purification and regeneration by means of Divine Truth of the Word.

Stop calling Swedenborg a heretic.
Harry

Again, you have missed the totally obvious which I even bolded. It clearly and unequivocally states that "the Holy Spirit came down". Period. It is the method of coming down that is "like a dove," but it is still the Holy Spirit that is coming down. That is absolutely clear.

I will try and stop calling Swedenborg a heretic, but I had to make it known for the record that that is what he was. If I stop calling him a heretic it doesn't mean that he ceases to be one.

If the Father spoke to Jesus at his baptism or ANYTIME for that matter as one person of the Godhead to another person of the Godhead how is that Monotheism?

Simple: one God, three "persons".

Perhaps you can clear up the absurdity of how one can be both the Father and Son of oneself.

God speaking to God yields 2 gods.

No. The Father speaking to the Son yields a loving relationship between two distinct persons who both share in the nature of being of God. That is how love and relationship work. Love, by definition, is a willful action directed towards another, not towards oneself - that is narcissism and eogism.

 

[Klee shay]

We read that when Jesus was baptised, the heavens were opened and John saw the Holy Spirit coming down in the form of a dove Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:21; John 1:32,33. This was because baptism stands for regeneration and cleansing, and so does a dove. How can anyone fail to see that the dove was not the Holy Spirit, nor was the Holy Spirit in the dove? In heaven doves are often to be seen, and the angels know that, when they are, they are correspondences of affections and consequently of thoughts about regeneration and cleansing in the minds of some bystanders. So as soon as they approach them and engage them in conversation about any subject other than what they were thinking about when they appeared, the doves immediately vanish. This is similar to many of the visions seen by the prophets, as for instance John's vision of the Lamb on Mount Zion Rev. 14:1 and elsewhere.

The dove was the narrative (description) as was the lamb. Does this make the HS and the sacrifice Jesus became; any less real?

Is there anyone who does not know that the Lord was not the Lamb, nor in it, but that the Lamb was a representation of His innocence?

Let us follow this logic to it's rational conclusion. You say he wasn't the lamb but it was rather a representation of his innocense. By this logic, if there is no lamb (as you say) then there is nothing to represent either - for the lamb does not exist right?

Jesus is the lamb more than any baby sheep you will ever meet in your life. The lamb may have even been created for the purpose of Jesus; for he was created long before the world. How can you believe the things which were obviously brought about by the hand of God; were misrepresentations?

 

[SpiritualSon]

On Jesus baptism:

If the Father spoke to Jesus at his baptism or ANYTIME for that matter as one person of the Godhead to another person of the Godhead how is that Monotheism?

God speaking to God yields 2 gods. Did God need to be baptized in water? Far be it. But MAN does need to submit to Gods program (baptism) and be obedient to him.

And THAT is the explanation. Jesus was both God and man. His existence in heaven was as the Father. His existence on Earth was as a man.

This scripture clears up that mystery.

13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

Jesus was in Heaven and Earth both at the same time.

Hi Micheal,
It was the Lord's Soul that spoke those word at His baptizm. The comforter, the spirit of truth, remains among you and is in you. John 14:17.

The Comforter is Divine Truth proceeding from the Lord, which is why He is also called the Spirit of truth. Divine Truth makes heaven, and also the angels, because they receive that truth. For the Divine proceeding from the Lord being Divine Truth, the source of the heaven of angels.
These words of the Lord too have a similar meaning: The kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21. By the kingdom of God is meant the Lord, and the Church from Him.
What Jesus meant, when He spock these words:
"I am come from God" John 8:42- the Body came forth from the Soul.

"The Son can do nothing of Himself, - but what He seeth the Father do" John 5:19 - the Body can do nothing of Itself, but what it is directed to do by the Soul.

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" Matthew. 16: 16- The Messiah, the Body of the Infinite itself, which alone is Life-in-itself.

"This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" Matthew. 3:17 - the Divine Body in which it pleased the Father to dwell while on earth.

"My Father is greater than I" John 14:28 - the Soul is greater than the Body, since it directs it.

"No Man cometh unto the Father but by Me" John 14:6 - Just as we cannot know a man's soul except insofar as his body reveals it.

Jesus was in Heaven and Earth both at the same time. That is true. The Lord preached before the angels also when He lived on earth. They read the Word in its spiritual sense, man reads it in the natural sense, but man, like an angel has a will and understanding. Only the Lord can bring a man's understanding up a high level. He does this to all who approach Him as the Divine Trinity and live according to His Commandments. The Soul, Body and Spirit of the Jesus Christ, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Harry :fadein:

 

[lecoop]

SpiritualSon said

I get it from the writings of Swedenborg.

May I be so bold as to suggest that you throw his writings away? They are leading you astray. As I said before, a third grader level reader could get this.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

SpiritualSon said

I get it from the writings of Swedenborg.

May I be so bold as to suggest that you throw his writings away? They are leading you astray. As I said before, a third grader level reader could get this.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

SpiritualSon said

I get it from the writings of Swedenborg.

May I be so bold as to suggest that you throw his writings away? They are leading you astray.

Coop

 

[SpiritualSon]

SpiritualSon said

I get it from the writings of Swedenborg.

May I be so bold as to suggest that you throw his writings away? They are leading you astray.

Coop

The Lord had led me to the writings of Swedenborg in the year 1966. The second coming is through him. The second coming will not be in person, but in the spiritual sense of the Word, because the Lord is the Word, and the Word is Divine Truth.

Harry

 

[Solo]

I would toss Swedenborg's books of false doctrine and stick with the Word of God which are on two opposite banks of the chasm.

 

[Heidi]

I would toss Swedenborg's books of false doctrine and stick with the Word of God which are on two opposite banks of the chasm.

Absolutely. It doesn't matter what anyone believes. What matters is what the bible says and Jesus calles himself the Son all over the place.