Is Jesus God Almighty, Everlasting Father?

[Michael A Disciple]

Vic said:

I suppose that's not boasting either.

Me:

Why is it boasting? As far as I know all that have confessed by the poll Jesus as God the Eternal Father already believed so.

But it gives me joy to hear someone walks in truth.

4: I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. 2 John 4

That is the context of my pleasure concerning the poll.

Frankly I would have been surprised if the vote had been 50-50 on a strong Trinitarian board. But look on the bright side for a number of Oneness believers to be on this forum indicates it is an interesting site.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Who is "us" in the following verses?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Maybe we can discuss Elohiym, echad and the Godhead too.

Why should we assume YHWH is talking to others who are YHWH'S?

YHWH was simply including those of the heavenly host in what he was doing.

The very next verse proves it!

27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen. 1:27

Notice in the verse the word HIS and the words HE. Both in singular! So YHWH informs the Angels he will make man and includes them in the plan because Angels are also in Gods image and because of courtesy.

But when he created he did it ALONE and by HIMSELF. Isaiah 44:24

Here is several examples of God including those around him of his plans.

18: Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
19: And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
20: Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
21: And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 2 Chronicles 18:18-21

Notice there was only ONE YHWH mentioned at this counsel and Angels.

1: In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2: Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3: And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4: And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5: Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6: Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Isaiah 6:1-8

Notice in this portion of scripture Adonai says "who will go for us". But who is present? Himself (YHWH OF HOSTS) the Angels and Isaiah. No mention of anyone else who is God!

Why is that?

8: Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isaiah 44:8

Because the one thing YHWH does not know is another God!

 

[Michael A Disciple]

I've always thought of God being the father, and putting himself into a human form, but still being in Heaven at the same time.

So, Jesus is not God, but he is made from God.

So this basically fights for both sides :P

Actually this is very close to the Oneness position.

Trinitarianism teaches it was God the Son who put himself into human form. And that is essentially the difference between Oneness and Trinity doctrine.

 

[John the Baptist]

I've always thought of God being the father, and putting himself into a human form, but still being in Heaven at the same time.

So, Jesus is not God, but he is made from God.

So this basically fights for both sides :P

Actually this is very close to the Oneness position.

Trinitarianism teaches it was God the Son who put himself into human form. And that is essentially the difference between Oneness and Trinity doctrine.

********

John here:
This subject comes very near Johns Inspired Warning from the Godhead to us in 2 John 1:7-11. When one will not or does not believe in the Doctrine of Christ, as it is the very Word of the Christ God, as seen all through the Word itself! it must be seen in John other writings also surely! John 1:1-4 with John 1:11-14!! & must include 2 Timothy 3:16 Doctrine from Eternity! As seen by Christ's Words of Matthew 4:4. It we are told there is Nothing New! Or is Gods WORD not from ETERNITY? To believe otherwise is to 'deny the doctrine of Christ!'

Vic wrote:
Who is "us" in the following verses?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

*****
John here: Let me just add a thought after first doing the below here also, ok?? To be one of 'US' is telling eternity that this is two of the Godhead talking between themselves. Notice that for Their creation to become as one of US and then living in sin, that it would have taken the eating of the tree of life. And angels eat 'angels food' & are created beings. See Ezekiel 28:15 for Lucifer being created. All of the Godheads living creation have conditional immortality. Yes, the saved from earth also are among this group. See Revelation 22:1-2 (some more of John penmanship, huh? :wink
*****

Maybe we can discuss Elohiym, echad and the Godhead too.

----

Well Vic, there ia another verse from Genesis 11:7 that say's ..
"Let US go down, and confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

This sure would be Deity to have this supernatural power to do this 'tongues' working miracle! No created being has this ability. Only the Godhead!! These two were two separate persons of the Godhead as your above Gen. verse. The same two who have an image form. Did the 'unity' power come from the third person of Deity? The Holy Spirit? (Holy Ghost) Most likely,
as we see Him working in Genesis 1:2 on!

I got a warning from the site here for saying that the [post] was (bottom line) in the Revelation 17:5 Babbling group. So, it seems that I must be careful here? But I will once again say that this teaching is directly from the devil and his desired ones (for now at least) of Babylon confusion.

And numbers??? Who that is a real Christian is swayed by numbers??? Matthew 7:13-14, & the Rev. 17 verses again. I find it absurd that any professed Christian themselves are concerned with this 'majority' stuff!

It seems to me that the site has a statement of FAITH on this subject when one signs on?? Perhaps it was another site? :wink:

 

[Michael A Disciple]

John said:

John here:
This subject comes very near Johns Inspired Warning from the Godhead to us in 2 John 1:7-11. When one will not or does not believe in the Doctrine of Christ, as it is the very Word of the Christ God, as seen all through the Word itself! it must be seen in John other writings also surely! John 1:1-4 with John 1:11-14!! & must include 2 Timothy 3:16 Doctrine from Eternity! As seen by Christ's Words of Matthew 4:4. It we are told there is Nothing New! Or is Gods WORD not from ETERNITY? To believe otherwise is to 'deny the doctrine of Christ!'

Me:

Has Jesus Christ come in the flesh?

Of course he has. Is "Christ" Jesus last name? No. Christ is a title applied to this particular being.

6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

He is a Son given. A child born. His name shall be called ETERNAL FATHER.

That makes the Christ BOTH Father and Son.

That is the true meaning of THIS:

9: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.


I am teaching the doctrine of Christ. I have both the Father and the Son because Christ is BOTH. How is it people can read Isaiah 9:6 a prophetic revelation about the coming Messiah and not see he is both Son who is given and Eternal Father?

John said:

John here: Let me just add a thought after first doing the below here also, ok?? To be one of 'US' is telling eternity that this is two of the Godhead talking between themselves.

Me:

Here again Trinitarian doctrine forces one of its followers to confess God is MORE THAN ONE!

Yet nothing was more important to the Jesus than the truth that YHWH is one.

28: And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29: And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34: And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. Mark 12: 28-34

Verse 29 Jesus proclaims YHWH IS ONE.

Verse 32 the scribe agree YHWH is one and adds there is NONE OTHER BUT HE.

Verse 34 Jesus approves his words.

If there is NONE OTHER BUT HE that means there is ONLY HIM that is YHWH.

If there is NO OTHER BUT HE how is it one who is God is talking to another who is ALSO God?

How is such doctrine monotheistic?

 

[Michael A Disciple]

John said:

And numbers??? Who that is a real Christian is swayed by numbers??? Matthew 7:13-14, & the Rev. 17 verses again. I find it absurd that any professed Christian themselves are concerned with this 'majority' stuff!

Me:

Of course numbers has nothing to do with why I believe in Oneness. I also recognize they are thousands of member of this board overwhelmingly Trinitarians.

So my comments were made concerning this PARTICULAR thread.

So what is the purpose of taking a poll anyway? Is it not to calculate how many believe a certain way? Evidently someone wanted to know the numbers on it. It was not me but I am happy with the numbers.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, this is good reading! ---John
*********


Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:50 am Post subject: 123 Christian Forums - Statement of Faith

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the Statement of Faith of our forums, and of our leadership.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The bible is the inspired, infallible, and only authoritative Word of God.

Jesus Christ, God's only Son, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born a virgin birth, lived a sinless life, died an atoning death upon a cross, raised from the dead, and ascended to the right hand of the Father where He will one day return to the earth.

That man is in a lost and depraved condition by nature, and is in need of the new birth by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

In justification by faith apart from the works of the law.

That salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone, to whom we must respond with repentance, faith, and obedience. Through Christ we come into a right relationship with God, our sins are forgiven, and we receive eternal life.
_________________
Logan Thompson - 123 Christian Forums Owner

 

[Michael A Disciple]

In Answer To An Earlier Question About The Lamb Who Took The Book.

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

How does the vision PORTRAY GOD?



1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

What did he see on the throne?

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone:

Is God a sardine stone? Yet this is what John saw! Remember NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME. So the Spirit gives representations of God that we may understand certain truths.

Notice also verse 8 says of the one who sits on the throne:

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

The Lord God Almighty is the one WHO IS COMING! Are two divine persons coming to the earth? Or could it be this is Yeshua himself IN HIS DEITY? After all the prophet said HE IS THE MIGHTY GOD.


Who else does he see?

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

He sees a lamb. He doesn't see a human being but a lamb. Is Yeshua really a lamb? Of course not no more than the Father is a sardine stone. So John is seeing a vision that PORTRAYS
the Father giving authority to the Son. This is certainly bible truth. Everywhere it is the Father who gives to the Son. The Father is greater than the Son. The Father is God the Son is man. Yet in another vision given to John later on we see in vision form that the two BECOME ONE.

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Notice this vision calls God and the Lamb HIM not them. Verse 3.
God and the Lamb has ONE FACE not two. Verse 4.
The name of God and the Lamb is HIS NAME not their names.
God and the Lamb have only ONE THRONE not two. Verse 1 and 3.

Now according to some God in this context is the Father and the Lamb is Jesus, two seperate divine persons. If that is true
the LORD GOD OF THE HOLY PROPHETS in verse 6 should be God the Father. He is the one who shares the throne with the Lamb RIGHT?

Who is the Lord God of the Prophets?

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Yes friends STUNNING but nonetheless true! Yeshua/Jesus HIMSELF is the Lord God! So when the visions have all been seen and revealed we have God and the Lamb ON THE THRONE AND IT IS BOTH JESUS!

Is this deep? Yes
Is it mysterious? Yes
Is it true? Yes

This is the mystery of Christ. Christ is BOTH the Father and the Christ.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
I have a suggestion for the moderators on this thread. There surely are enough verses given to make a Romans 8:14 'Holy Spirit led decision' on this subject on the 'Doctrine of Christ'. 2 John 1:6-11.

Perhaps between yourselves you might just decide to lock up (down?) the subject? :wink:

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Alpha And Omega:The Ultimate Vindication Of Oneness Doctrine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The book of Revelation is RICH in proof texts concerning the deity of Yeshua/Jesus.

The foundation for this study is Rev. 22:12-13

Representing the Byzantine (majority) text we have the World English Bible.

22:12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Representing the Alexandrian Text we have the New International Version.

Behold I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the end.

Representing the Aramaic text is the James Murdock Version.

12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to recompense every one according to his work.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Commencement and the Completion.

As you can see these somewhat (at times) variant manuscript families all agree as to the text for these verses. They all show that one is coming to judge everyone. Then they all have him identifying himself as the Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End.

Now practically EVERYONE would agree that verse 12 is showing that Jesus is the one who is coming! Our hope as Christians is the COMING of Christ. His coming is mentioned frequently in the sacred writings.

So there should be no problem in understanding the next verse also refers to him. That would mean that he (Jesus) is the Alpha and Omega. Now these words are simply the FIRST and LAST letters of the Greek alphabet. So then Alpha Omega is for all intents and purposes the same thing as First and Last. And what is First and Last if it is not the BEGINNING and the END?

So the scriptures enjoin us to the truth that our Lord Jesus is all 3 of these things and that each of them have the same meaning.

Jesus as Alpha Omega.

1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,*†says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.†World English Bible

I am the Alpha and the Omega says the Lord God, who is and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. Rev. 1:8 New International Version

08 I am Alpha, also Omega, saith the Lord God; who is, and was, and is to come, the omnipotent. Rev. 1:8 Aramaic Text, Murdock Version.

Once again all 3 manuscript types confirm the same reading as Apostolic.

Getting down to the hard hitting truth, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. Yet the sacred writings also tell us Alpha Omega is THE LORD GOD!

Oh disciple of Jesus Christ let the force of this truth have its rightful impact on your mind! You trust that he is the Son of God. You are perfectly right in doing so. But now you understand it is perfectly right to trust in the same Jesus as THE LORD GOD!

Yes our Lord is BOTH. The Lord God and Gods Son. We walk by faith as believers. The scriptures teach this. What will you do with it? Why not be a believer and believe?

Jesus as Alpha Omega, Beginning and the End.

21:5 He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.†He said, “Write, for these words of God are faithful and true.†21:6 He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 21:7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. Rev. 21:5-7 World English Bible

He who was seated on the throne said, I am making everything new! Then he said to me: It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. Rev. 21:5-7
New International Version

05 And He who sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said: Write; because these are the faithful and true words of God.
06 And he said to me: I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Completion: to him who thirsteth, will I give of the fountain of living water, gratis.
07 He that overcometh, shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev. 21:5-7
Aramaic Text Murdock Version

In amazing harmony, again the three manuscript types speak with one voice. The one sitting on the throne says I am Alpha Omega the Beginning and the End! We know from Revelation 22:13 this is none other than our Lord Jesus the Christ!

The one sitting on the throne (Christ) says if we overcome he will be OUR GOD and we will be HIS SONS! Friends Jesus is revealing the mystery of the doctrine of Christ as plain as he knows how!

Throughout all eternity we will know HIM as our heavenly Father! It is his face we will see! Oh how we will rejoice that we have been partakers of his grace!

So we have now seen that Jesus, because he himself is the Alpha and Omega is indeed both our God and our Father.

This is what Isaiah prophesied God was going to do several thousand years back.

For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from that time on, even forever. The zeal of YHWH of Armies will perform this. Isaiah 9:6-7

He said it and he will make it good. The Son given will be called Mighty God-Everlasting Father. When you begin to do it you will be fulfilling this prophecy

 

[SpiritualSon]

The Divine Trinity is not made up of three Divine persons, it is one Divine Person. God is one in Person and in Essence, and that God is Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Every person has a soul, body and spirit. This is what a trinity is, soul, body and spirit. The Soul, Body and Spirit of Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Lord's Trinity is Divine, ours is human. Jesus is the Father, as in John 14:8-11
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

This means the Soul and Body of Jesus Christ is the Father and Son. It was the Father who assumed a Human under the name Jesus Christ.Amen

Harry :fadein:
[/quote]

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Hi Harry,

What you said reminds me of what Paul said:

9: For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
10: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: Col. 2:9-10

If the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost then the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is IN JESUS. We are complete in him. It pleased the Father that all the fulness would dwell in him.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi, John here:
I have a suggestion for the moderators on this thread. There surely are enough verses given to make a Romans 8:14 'Holy Spirit led decision' on this subject on the 'Doctrine of Christ'. 2 John 1:6-11.

Perhaps between yourselves you might just decide to lock up (down?) the subject? :wink:

I agree John. Minds aren't going to be changed by human words or flesh. Only the Spirit can do these things.

11th. hour rebuttals anyone?

 

[SpiritualSon]

Hi Harry,

What you said reminds me of what Paul said:

9: For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
10: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: Col. 2:9-10

If the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost then the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is IN JESUS. We are complete in him. It pleased the Father that all the fulness would dwell in him.

There are many place in the Gospels, which makes it seem as if the Father and Son were two persons. Here is one: Jesus said, the Father is greater than the Son. This means the Soul is greater than the Body, or the Divine is greater than the Human, since the Soul direct is. At the Lord's baptism, this is My Son in whom I am well please. John heard the Lord's Soul speaking. It pleased the Father, that He Himself became Man. His Human self was His Son. I don't believe that there was a trinity of three Divine persons from eternity before creation, because there are many places in the Old Testament that contradicts that belief.

God is one, and Jesus Christ is that God
From the numerous passages quoted from the Word in the preceding chapter, it is evident that the Lord is called Jehovah, the God of Israel and of Jacob, the Holy One of Israel, Lord, and God, and also King, the Anointed, and David, from which it may be seen, as yet however as through a glass, darkly, that the Lord is God Himself, from and about whom is the Word. Now it is known in the whole world that God is one, and no man possessed of sound reason denies it. It remains therefore to confirm this from the Word and, in addition, that the Lord is that God.

That God is one, is confirmed by these passages of the Word:
Jesus said, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord; therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul Mark 12:29-30.

Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah; and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul Deuteronomy 6:4- 5.

That all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone art Jehovah Isaiah 37:20.

I am Jehovah and there is none else there is no God besides Me that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is no God besides Me: I am Jehovah and there is none else Isaiah 45:5-6.

O Jehovah of Armies, God of Israel, that dwellest on the cherubim, Thou art the God, even Thou alone, over all the kingdoms of the earth Isaiah 37:16.

Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any Isaiah 44:8.

Who is God save Jehovah? and who is a Rock save our God? Psalm 18:31.

That the Lord is that God, is confirmed by these passages of the Word:
Surely God is in thee, and there is none else, there is no God. Verily Thou art a God that hidest Thyself, O God of Israel, the Savior Isaiah 45:14-15.

Have not I Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me, a just God and a Savior, there is none besides Me. Look unto Me that ye may be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else Isaiah 45:21- 22.

I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior Isaiah 43:11.

I am Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt acknowledge no God but Me; for there is no Savior besides Me Hosea 13:4.

Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel, and his Redeemer Jehovah of Armies, I am the First and I am the Last, and besides Me there is no God Isaiah 44:6.

Jehovah of Armies is His name, and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel the God of the whole earth shall He be called Isaiah 54:5.

In that day Jehovah shall be king over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Jehovah, and His name one Zechariah 14:9.

Jehovah God the Father was the one who became man under the Holy Name Jesus Christ. The Divine Essence of Jehovah God the Father is Divine Love or Divine Good and Divine Wisdom or Divine Truth, and these are meant by the name Jesus Christ. The Holy Name Jesus means Divine Good or Divine Love. The Name Christ means Divine Truth or Divine Wisdom. Good is of charity and truth is of faith, but it is the Holy Name Jesus that bring tears to a person's eyes, not the name Christ. I know Catholics have habit of saying or posting the name Christ. Christ this, Christ that. Christ said this, Chirch said that. Even their prayers ends with, through Christ our Lord amen.

Harry

 

[Heidi]

Jesus said in John 14: 24, "These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." Jesus again makes a clear distinction between himself and our Father in heaven. He is not lying. if more people believed him, there would be less arguing on this forum, especially under the guise of "interpretation." Christ's words are clear enough for a child to understand them which is why he asks us to come to him like little children. All we have to do is bleieve him. :wink:

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Heidi said:

Jesus said in John 14: 24, "These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." Jesus again makes a clear distinction between himself and our Father in heaven.

Me:

I have upheld that distinction consistently through this thread. Trinitarianism wants the distinction to be between God and God. Scripture will have nothing to do with it.

The distinction between the Father and Son is not a distinction between 2 members or persons who are BOTH God. If they are distinct as two seperate beings who are BOTH GOD then there is no point in trying to defend monotheism, the doctrine of only One God.

But if we hold there to be One God AND One Man we are staying with the word.

5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Tim. 2:5

All you then have to decide is Jesus God?

We know he is the man in question. But that same scripture means the same thing when referring to ONE GOD as it means when referring to ONE MAN.

If there is one God that means there is not more than one.

Is Jesus God? Yes in his deity he is YAH. In his humanity he is a MAN in whom YAH has chosen to dwell.

The distinctions are found in this truth. Not between God and God making two gods but between God and Man of which Jesus is both.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Since 11th hour rebuttals are being solicited I take it that my work in this thread is done. I have posted an abundance of scriptures that if were read in their entirety would give an accurate understanding of the Oneness of God and deity of Christ.

I will now offer my summation in my own words.

Before the beginning God was simply omni present spirit. He had no form because he did not need one since nothing else existed. He existed with himself forever before he made the first thing.

The first thing he made or we might say FORMED was an image of HIMSELF. It was not another separate person but the image of the invisible God. The Angel of YHWH. AKA THE WORD.

At creation the WORD was God. The Word dwelled in unapproachable light-omni present spirit. So that the Angels did not see him as omni present but in an image like their own. There were not 2 gods but God himself existing in two distinct modes of being. The WORD spoke, the Spirit moved, and all was created.

At Bethlehem the WORD part of God was made flesh in Mary. The omni present Spirit was still of course omni present Spirit. This is what we call the Holy Spirit. This is what took the WORD and placed it in Mary and was the Father of the child who was born.

The child was called the Son of God for that reason. Jesus told Nicodemus he was living in Heaven at the same time he was living on Earth. In Heaven he was the omni present Spirit on Earth the son of man.

In one mode of being he was the Eternal Father. Yet in a distinct mode of being he was the begotten son. The Father always aware of everything with the Son but the Son not aware of everything with the Father.

At his resurrection he as a glorified spiritual being went back to the unapproachable light which is the omni present spirit. He dwells there today. In him dwells all of God in bodily form.

Right now he is both God and man existing similtaneously. In one mode of being he is YHWH the only true God. In another he is Gods son or the Son of man. So that just like Isaiah said we have a Son who is called Eternal Father.

Peter said God has made him BOTH LORD AND CHRIST. YHWH AND ADON.

Not just Christ. YHWH AND CHRIST. Acts 2:36

This is Gods plan. This is how he wants us to perceive Jesus. If anyone has read all of my posts I thank you for your sincerity and patience. I hope you have been encouraged to see that all important truth that God is one and ALSO the wonderfully glorious truth that Jesus/Yeshua is the only God, King Of Kings and Lord of Lords.

I stand ready to answer any further questions if needed and allowed.

Moderators:

Since this thread was a poll asking our belief about whether Jesus is the Eternal Father I assumed the issue could be freely discussed. Thanks for the opportunity to present my case.

 

[SpiritualSon]

Jesus said in John 14:24, "These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." Jesus again makes a clear distinction between himself and our Father in heaven. He is not lying. if more people believed him, there would be less arguing on this forum, especially under the guise of "interpretation." Christ's words are clear enough for a child to understand them which is why he asks us to come to him like little children. All we have to do is bleieve him. :wink:

Heidi,
The Divine operates through the Human, as the soul does through the body:
The Son can do nothing from Himself, but what He seeth the Father doing John 5:19. The Divine Human in the Lord can't do nothing unless directed by the Divine in Himself Called the Father. What is in a person is the soul.

I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things and He that hath sent Me is with Me He hath not left Me alone John 8:28-29 John 5:30. The Human part of God was not fully Divine until all things were done. By temptations and continual victories over hell, and by the passion of the cross, which was the last of the temptations, He fully conquered the hells, and glorified the Human. The Lord was led by His own Divine, not someone elses. To glorified, means to make Divine.

I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father who sent Me, He hath given Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak John 12:49.
It was the Lord's Divine Love in Himself called the Father, is what sent Him and Commanded Him to speak and do.

The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself, but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works John 14:10. The Divine operates through the Human, as the soul does through the body:

I am not alone, because the Father is with Me John 16:32. God and Man in Jesus Christ are one Person, just as the Soul and Body of Jesus are one Person.The Human or the Body of Jesus did not act by itself without the Divine in Him called the Father. It is not impossible from the Father and Son to be one Person..

Harry :fadein:

 

[SpiritualSon]

Ask any Christian, "What is the single most important teaching in the Bible?" He should be able to answer, "That God is One."

This is in fact the answer that Jesus Christ Himself gave. A man asked Him, "What is the most important commandment of all?"

Jesus began, "The First is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is One...'" Mark 12: 20-32 The Jew who asked this was not at all surprised by the answer. He knew that this commandment about loving the One Lord was to be written on their hearts, taught to their children, and discussed at home and while travelling, morning and evening. Deuteronomy 6: 4-7 He knew also that the first of the Ten Commandments was to "have no other gods." Exodus 20:3

Again and again the Bible emphasizes the oneness of God. "Thou art God, and Thou alone." 2 Kings 19:15 "There is no God with Me." Deuteronomy 22:39 "I am Jehovah (Yahweh) and there is none else." Isaiah 45:5 My glory will I not give to another." Isaiah 42:8, 48:11 It is very clear that the Unity of God must be central to all our thought about Him.

It might seem that the birth, life, and resurrection of Jesus Christ presents a challenge to this. Did the One God Himself come to earth? Or was Jesus someone else? Some Christians have accepted the idea that the One God is made up of Three equal and eternal Persons. Others have said that Jesus is not God, but the Son of God, or just "a child of God" like everyone else.

We can understand better who Jesus is, by comparing the things that are said of Jesus with the things that are said of the One God, Jehovah. The table below summarizes some of the passages which indicate that Jehovah and Jesus are the same Divine Person.

The following passages show that "Jehovah" and "Jesus" are two names for One Divine Person:

Jehovah is Our Savior
"Besides Me there is no Savior"--Isaiah 43:3,10; 45:21,22; 60:16; 49:26
Jesus is Our Savior
"Savior of the World"--1 John 4; Luke 2:11; 2 Timothy 1; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1

Jehovah is Our Redeemer
As for our Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts is His name--Jeremiah 1:34, Isaiah 47:4.
Jesus is Our Redeemer
Christ has redeemed us--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9; Titus 2:14; Luke 24:21.

Jehovah is Our Creator
I am Jehovah who makes all things...alone, by Myself--Isaiah 44:24
Jesus is Our Creator
All things were made by Him--John 1:3 All were created by Him--Colossians 1:16

Jehovah is Our Source of Life
He gives life to all--Acts 17:25 He is your life--Deuteronomy 3:20 Deuteronomy 32:39
Jesus is Our Source of Life
He gives life to the world--John 6:33 I am the life--John 14:6 John 11:25 John 6:27-47

Jehovah is Our Father
Jehovah our Father--Isaiah 63:16 Isaiah 64:8
Jesus is Our Father
Father of Eternity--Isaiah 9:6

Jehovah is The I AM
His name is I AM--Exodus 3:14 Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He Is."
Jesus is The I AM
Before Abraham was, I AM--John 8:58 Who is, was, and is to come--Revelation 1:8

Jehovah is Lord of Lords
Deuteronomy 10:17
Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords
Revelation 17:14.

Jehovah is Our Shepherd
Jehovah is my Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:11
Jesus is Our Shepherd
I am the Good Shepherd--John 10:11

Jehovah is The Almighty
The Almighty God--Genesis 17:1; 28:3; etc. Thine is the power--1 Chronicles 29:11; Matthew 6:18
Jesus is The Almighty
The Almighty--Revelation 1:8 The Mighty God--Isaiah 9:6 He has all power in heaven and earth--Matthew 28:18.

Jehovah is The Holy One
You alone are Holy--Isaiah 6:3 The Holy One--Isaiah 30:15; 54:5
Jesus is The Holy One
The Holy One--Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Acts 3:14

Jehovah is Our Light
Jehovah is my light--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:20
Jesus is Our Light
The Light of the world-- John 8:12; John 1:9

Jehovah is Our Rock
He alone is my Rock--Psalms 62:6 Psalms 18:2
Jesus is Our Rock
Christ is the Rock--1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 2:8

Jehovah is Our King
Jehovah is King forever. Psalms 10:16
Jesus is Our King
King of Kings--Revelation 17:14; Matthew 21:5

Jehovah is The First and Last
Isa. 43:10; 41:4, 48:12
Jesus is The First and Last
Revelation 22:13; Revelation 1:8

Jehovah is Our Hope
Jehovah my Hope--Jer. 17:13, 17; 50:7
Jesus is Our Hope
Jesus Christ our Hope--1 Tim. 1:1

The coming of the Messiah had been foretold for ages. Most Christians are quite familiar with prophecies such as, "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son." It is interesting that so many of these prophecies tell that God Himself--the One Lord, Jehovah--would come on earth to be with His people. For example, the passage just quoted goes on to say, "His name shall be called God-With-Us." Isaiah 7:14 Another passage declares that the Child who would be born would be "the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father." Isaiah 9:6 And when John the Baptist was announcing the coming of Jesus, he quoted the prophecy which says, "Prepare the way of Jehovah; make straight in the desert a highway for our God." This passage continues, "The glory of Jehovah shall be revealed... Say to the cities of Judah, `Behold your God!' Behold the Lord Jehovah shall come." (Isaiah 40:3,5,10; Luke 3:4) People prayed for the coming of the One God: "Bow Your heavens, Jehovah, and come down." Psalm 144:5 His coming is the source of our joy: "And it shall be said in that day, `This is our God. We have waited for Him that He may deliver us; this is Jehovah... We will rejoice and be glad in His salvation.'" Isaiah 25:9 So of course, it should be--it must be--that the One God would want to be with His people: "`Behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,' says Jehovah." Zechariah 2:10

These prophecies were fulfilled when Jesus Christ was born. In Jesus Christ, the One God had come to manifest Himself to mankind and dwell with them. Consequently, there are many passages in the New Testament which identify Jesus as that One God. He is called the True God, 1 John 5:20 Savior, Luke 2:11; Matthew 1:21 God With Us. Matthew 1:23 The Wise Men knew the prophecies, so they recognized Jesus as their King and God: they came and worshipped Him. Matthew 2:2-11 And all the angels worshipped Him at His birth. Hebrews 1:6 Jesus identified Himself as the One God when He spoke of Himself as the One who came down from heaven to give life to the world, John 6:33, 38 and when He said "He who has seen Me has seen the Father," John 14:9. and "I and My Father are One." John 10:30

Although these many passages show that Jesus and Jehovah are One Divine Person there are other passages which show a distinction between the Father and the Son. We cannot come to a complete understanding of the Bible or of God by looking at only one set of passages. Instead, we need some way of reconciling all the teachings.

It may help us integrate the various teachings to keep in mind the fact that Jesus changed between the time of His birth and His resurrection. During His life on earth Jesus was tempted. Luke 4:1-13 He was not yet glorified, John 12:28 But had to enter into His glory Luke 24:26 by degrees. John 7:39 He "increased in wisdom and stature." Luke 2:52 Before the resurrection, the union of Jehovah and Jesus was not yet complete, so Jesus said, "I am going to My Father, for My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28; 16:16 It was only after this work was finished John 19:30 that He could say, "All power has been given to Me in heaven and earth." Matthew 28:18 It was not till then that He was completely and fully God.

This explains why Jesus was so often called the "Son of God." Jesus had come forth from God, and God was gradually manifesting Himself in Jesus. So at first, Jesus was the Son of God, and later became One with Jehovah and fully Divine.

Generally, the passages which distinguish between Father and Son do not describe the kind of relationship that would exist between two Persons. It is more like the kind of relationship that exists between Soul and Body. For example, Jesus said, "The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." John 14:10 We don't speak of one person dwelling in another person, but it does make sense to think of the soul dwelling within the body, or in this case, of the infinite Divine Soul dwelling within Jesus Christ. So Jesus Christ is called the "image of the invisible God" Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4 and "the form of God." Philemon 2:6 As Paul said, we see "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," 2 Corinthians 4:6 and "in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2:9

Other passages describe a similar relationship. John said, "No one has seen God at any time. The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has revealed Him." John 1:18 The Divine Soul is invisible like a human soul. "You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." John 5:37; John 6:46) But in Jesus, that Soul is revealed, as in Its own Body. Since you communicate with a person's soul only by means of his body, Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but by Me." John 14:6 And by coming to Jesus Christ we can draw near to the One God of the universe Who has come to earth to show Himself to us in His own loving and gentle Human Form.

Zechariah 9:9 Has something to do the prophecy of Jesus entering Jerusalem. Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
There is only one King of heaven, and that is Jesus Christ.

Harry :fadein:

 

[Vic C.]

Moderators:

Since this thread was a poll asking our belief about whether Jesus is the Eternal Father I assumed the issue could be freely discussed. Thanks for the opportunity to present my case.

You're welcome Michael. Since there has been dialog without tempers flaring, I think I will just let this thread die out instead of locking it. Carry on brother. 8-)