Is Man Inherently Good or Inherently Bad?

[Georges]

If the translators are not of Pauline Theology then the english will be more supportive of "a sinless child born into a world of sin".

In view of the sacrificial system, I would say,"no".

Children were not viewed as responsible adults.....so they didn't have to worry about the sacrificial system.

Name a few people in the Old Testament who didn't have to sacrifice to approach a Holy G-d.

Doesn't have anything to do with this thread.

Children may not have been viewed as responsible adults but they can still sin and Leviticus 16:16 says that they can make an atonement for all their sins. Verse 17 says that he can make "an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel."


Sothenes....if you choose to view the term "children of Israel" as "children" as in infants, then we'll have to leave the semantic's at that....I think the general acceptence of the term in this verse denotes responsible citizens of Israel of Law responsible age.

Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy [place], because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
Lev 16:17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy [place], until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.



"And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commanded that ye should do: and the glory of the LORD shall appear unto you."-Leviticus 9:6

Apparently, it was the whole congregation that stood before the Lord (Leviticus 9:5).

Yes, the congregation included families which include children...as they (the children) were included in worship in a learning situation.....Actually, I'll have to research to see if children were allowed to participate in Temple worship with the adults. Get back to you on that. Verse doesn't prove/disprove anything.

"And he brought the people's offering, and took the goat, which was the sin offering for the people, and slew it, and offered it for sin, as the first."-Leviticus 9:15

Again, no indication children were involved...people meaning adults.

When I see Leviticus 10:6 say that wrath would come upon all the people then I believe that "all" means "all".

Again, Parents are responsible for their children until they are of age...

"In the number of all the males, from a month old and upward, were eight thousand and six hundred, keeping the charge of the sanctuary."-Numbers 3:28

It is interesting that all the males from a month old and upward were counted if they weren't responsible adults.

Just because they were counted doesn't make them of responsible age....come on......

You win the debate.....actually...I'm smiling to see at what length you will go in this......every verse you have provided in no way shows any responsibiltiy (in regard to the Torah) to which a child would be held accountable....You may in your own mind try and justify (twist) the verse to try and support your point but in the end you haven't proven responsiblity or inherent sin.

 

[Sothenes]

Just because they were counted doesn't make them of responsible age....come on......

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

We have this inherited thing called "death". If everyone wasn't being held responsible then why do people with no supposed "inherited" sin die? Forget that its revealed in the New Testament. Answer why they have death in the Old Testament and especially for those who supposedly never sinned.

 

[DivineNames]

Is man (humans) inherently good or inherently bad?

I think, somewhat paradoxically, that the answer is both.

 

[Georges]

Just because they were counted doesn't make them of responsible age....come on......

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

We have this inherited thing called "death". If everyone wasn't being held responsible then why do people with no supposed "inherited" sin die? Forget that its revealed in the New Testament. Answer why they have death in the Old Testament and especially for those who supposedly never sinned.

Sothenes....come on.....children learn sin.....of course they do. Are they held responsible....no, not until they learn the law....and understand it. That is why the age of accountablilty 12-13.

I say if you keep a child in a bubble without outside contact they will grow up to be innocent. You saw keep a child in a bubble without outside contact and he will grow up to be evil. Why? Because of original sin.....

Sin is a learned thing...it's not passed down by genetic code. And, God does not hold the Child responsible for the sins of their father's.

 

[Sothenes]

Just because they were counted doesn't make them of responsible age....come on......

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

We have this inherited thing called "death". If everyone wasn't being held responsible then why do people with no supposed "inherited" sin die? Forget that its revealed in the New Testament. Answer why they have death in the Old Testament and especially for those who supposedly never sinned.

Sothenes....come on.....children learn sin.....of course they do. Are they held responsible....no, not until they learn the law....and understand it. That is why the age of accountablilty 12-13.

I say if you keep a child in a bubble without outside contact they will grow up to be innocent. You saw keep a child in a bubble without outside contact and he will grow up to be evil. Why? Because of original sin.....

Sin is a learned thing...it's not passed down by genetic code. And, God does not hold the Child responsible for the sins of their father's.

Can you answer the question?

 

[Drew]

Is man (humans) inherently good or inherently bad?

I understand the Scriptures as saying that man is born with a nature that is subject to temptation, but not one that necessitates that sin will happen. I realize that this is a huge debate (i.e. the whole "total depravity" question).

I have some sympathy with the notion that we learn to sin as I believe Georges is arguing. Of course, we are not born with "blank slates" in our brains. It appears that we are born with certain genetic programming.
So I suppose one could ask whether such programming is "for good or for bad".

I think that answer is clearly both. Some Christians will argue that the unredeemed person is utterly incapable of doing good and that they are "born that way". Whatever their status at birth, I think any person willing to look at the evidence of life has to admit that non-Christians do good things.

So after that meandering, I will say thay my answer is "both", because I believe that we are indeed not blank slates and, while we do learn to both sin and do good, there is some existing mental infrastructure, present at birth, that inclines us to both good and evil.

 

[lecoop]

Unfortunately, when we are born, we are born into an "earth suit." This earthsuit, that we inherited from Adam, is a terrible thing, bent on sin and rebellion towards God. If we could just be born into a ressurection body!

It is written that "God gives the spirit." Again, there is debate on this issue also. I believe God gives the human spirit at the time of conception. The human spirit is innocent: neither sinful nor bent on sin - neither does it have any sinful nature: the sinful nature is our earth-suits we inherit from Adam! This human spirit comes from God. Would God give a sinful spirit? Never! However, this innocent spirit is like a sponge, just like the soul is, and will learn from the enviroment.

If this innocent spirit gets born again early, say at age 7, as I was, then this human being will never know the life of a sinner. However, when the age of accountability comes, and the earthsuit is tempted, the flesh will sin. Does it have to? No, but it always does, because it is an earth suit that carries the DNA of Adam. Does this person, born again before the age of accountability, have a sinful nature? No! They have a nature (spirit) that is born of God! Their spirit man only desires to follow God. However, this spirit, born of God, is still trapped in the earth-suit, that is bent on rebellion against God. Therefore, there will be constant warfare between the spirit and the flesh. The spirit cannot sin, because it is born of God. The earth-suit cannot help but sin, because it is from Adam and earthy.

If this innocent spirit reaches the age of accountability, and does not become born again, when temptation comes and sin follows, the name is blotted out of the book of life, and will remain blotted out until or if this person becomes born again.

I will REALLY be glad to get rid of my earth-suit!

Coop

 

[Featherbop]

In my eyes, man.....appears to inherently possess certain qualities that tend to lead to a negative existence.

 

[Georges]

Just because they were counted doesn't make them of responsible age....come on......

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

We have this inherited thing called "death". If everyone wasn't being held responsible then why do people with no supposed "inherited" sin die?

Come on S....With all due respect, how old are you?...We have this thing called death because Man sinned....Adam was not at child. Death came into the world because Adam and Eve sinned...and were held responsible. Adam and Eve were not 6 year old children...

Forget that its revealed in the New Testament. Answer why they have death in the Old Testament and especially for those who supposedly never sinned.

Sothenes....come on.....children learn sin.....of course they do. Are they held responsible....no, not until they learn the law....and understand it. That is why the age of accountablilty 12-13.

I say if you keep a child in a bubble without outside contact they will grow up to be innocent. You saw keep a child in a bubble without outside contact and he will grow up to be evil. Why? Because of original sin.....

Sin is a learned thing...it's not passed down by genetic code. And, God does not hold the Child responsible for the sins of their father's.

Can you answer the question?

Answered it and I'm sure not to your satisfaction....you logic is strange...so forgive me if I don't continue trying to outguess you....

Let's leave it at you WIN.........

 

[Sothenes]

I say if you keep a child in a bubble without outside contact they will grow up to be innocent. You saw keep a child in a bubble without outside contact and he will grow up to be evil. Why? Because of original sin.....

Sin is a learned thing...it's not passed down by genetic code. And, God does not hold the Child responsible for the sins of their father's.

Can you answer the question?

Answered it and I'm sure not to your satisfaction....you logic is strange...so forgive me if I don't continue trying to outguess you....

Let's leave it at you WIN.........

If children are sinless then why can't they choose to be sinless?

How did death enter in if children are sinless? Why aren't sinless children immune to death and treated any differently than sinful beings? They die because they have inherited the sinful nature of their parents. I already have a child and he already doesn't have to be taught to do wrong because he was born selfish, needy, etc., and my child has to be taught to do good. If children were born sinless then the curse could be removed.

 

[Georges]

I say if you keep a child in a bubble without outside contact they will grow up to be innocent. You saw keep a child in a bubble without outside contact and he will grow up to be evil. Why? Because of original sin.....

Sin is a learned thing...it's not passed down by genetic code. And, God does not hold the Child responsible for the sins of their father's.

Can you answer the question?

Answered it and I'm sure not to your satisfaction....you logic is strange...so forgive me if I don't continue trying to outguess you....

Let's leave it at you WIN.........

If children are sinless then why can't they choose to be sinless?

I wasn't going to continue..but will for a while...Ans...they can choose. We have free will to choose right from wrong. If a child doesn't know (isn't taught) right from wrong...do they sin? are they held responsible until they are taught?

And to keep answering your twisting of words....I never said the Children are not sinless, I said they are held not accountable. When they learn the Law (or what is lawful or not), then they are held accountable for their actions.


How did death enter in if children are sinless?


Never said they weren't....said they are born sinless and learn it...

Why aren't sinless children immune to death and treated any differently than sinful beings?

Children learn sin by imatation...not held accountable until they learn the law.

They die because they have inherited the sinful nature of their parents.

They die because they are taught the sinful behavior of thier partents....it's hard for me to believe Abraham is going to hell because of his parents...he did live before Christ BTW.

I already have a child and he already doesn't have to be taught to do wrong because he was born selfish, needy, etc., and my child has to be taught to do good. If children were born sinless then the curse could be removed.

OK....you have your opinion....

 

[Reformationist]

Georges, not sure if you missed the questions I asked, or if I missed your response, so I'll post my questions to you again in hopes that we can both be edified.

Is it your contention that children are born free of the stain of sin, a position that the heretic Pelagius took, or are you simply purporting that children are not held accountable for their sin until such time as they reach a certain age?

Also, it seems as if you're implying that one cannot come to a proper understanding of God's Word if they subscribe to Pauline theology or, rather, that Pauline theology is not consistant with God's revelation. Have I misunderstood you on that point?

Thanks for your response.

God bless

 

[Georges]

Georges, not sure if you missed the questions I asked, or if I missed your response, so I'll post my questions to you again in hopes that we can both be edified.

Missed it...apologies...

Is it your contention that children are born free of the stain of sin, a position that the heretic Pelagius took, or are you simply purporting that children are not held accountable for their sin until such time as they reach a certain age?

My current position (I say that because as a born and bred Lutheran, I was taught inherent/inherited sin) is that Children are born with a clean slate. They learn to sin very quickly as well as how to act rightly. Even though they sin, they don't know they have until they are taught that that action is a sin.

In Judaism, it is the responsiblity of the parent to teach the children Torah. Systematically, this is accomplished by 12-13 when at the Bar Mitzvah they are considered accountable adults (in religion that is).

Also, it seems as if you're implying that one cannot come to a proper understanding of God's Word if they subscribe to Pauline theology or, rather, that Pauline theology is not consistant with God's revelation. Have I misunderstood you on that point?

It's more complicated than that...It's quite clear that Paul (or the Paul of the Letters) includes Gnostic/Mystery Religion terminology in his work....If you hold my feet to the fire...I would have to say that your observation is mostly accurate. I do think Pauline Christianity as it has evolved today is false Christianity. I think true Christianity should have evloved from style and practices of the Church at Jerusalem which is different than what Paul taught...but that is for another thread, no? Still I don't completely disregard Paul...I just look at his letters much more closely. I do feel that the Paul of Acts is not the same writer as the Paul of the Letters...the consistancy between action and words are lacking. Still....Paul knows enough about Judaism to make authentic points...so I don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Thanks for your response.

My pleasure always....that is if I don't overlook the question..

God bless

Back at ya bruddah...

me in red....

 

[lecoop]

I say if you keep a child in a bubble without outside contact they will grow up to be innocent. You saw keep a child in a bubble without outside contact and he will grow up to be evil. Why? Because of original sin.....

Sin is a learned thing...it's not passed down by genetic code. And, God does not hold the Child responsible for the sins of their father's.

Can you answer the question?

Answered it and I'm sure not to your satisfaction....you logic is strange...so forgive me if I don't continue trying to outguess you....

Let's leave it at you WIN.........

If children are sinless then why can't they choose to be sinless?

How did death enter in if children are sinless? Why aren't sinless children immune to death and treated any differently than sinful beings? They die because they have inherited the sinful nature of their parents. I already have a child and he already doesn't have to be taught to do wrong because he was born selfish, needy, etc., and my child has to be taught to do good. If children were born sinless then the curse could be removed.

Death entered in before there were any children! And death passed to each generation from Adam. It is the earth suit that had death in it, not the spirit. The human spirit lives forever. The earth suit is conceived in sin, as the scritpures say. But the spirit comes from God and is innocent. The sinful nature is not the spirit or in the spirit - it is the earth suit the child must be born with. Children are born innocent (the spirit) but are also born with the earth suit, which is the fleshly body we are born with: evil and with the nature of sin. The spirit of a child remains innocent until the age of accountability is reached. There is nothing evil in a spirit given by God. However, because of the earth suit with the sinful nature, it is not long before the spirit of a child is involved with sin: such as lying, or stealing. However, this sin is not imputed until a certain age is reached.

Therefore, it matters little if there is a bubble. The earth suit - the fleshly body we are born with, will soon be tempted with something: even in a bubble! If nothing else, then rebellion because of the bubble! : -))

Coop

 

[Sothenes]

How did death enter in if children are sinless?


Never said they weren't....said they are born sinless and learn it...

Why aren't sinless children immune to death and treated any differently than sinful beings?

Children learn sin by imatation...not held accountable until they learn the law.

They die because they have inherited the sinful nature of their parents.

They die because they are taught the sinful behavior of thier partents....it's hard for me to believe Abraham is going to hell because of his parents...he did live before Christ BTW.

The definition of sin is to miss the mark. Since children have to learn to be good, they sin because they miss the mark. God may not hold them accountable as Children but they are still sinful and I didn't teach my toddler to disobey me so you can't say that all sin is learned from the parents.

 

[Sothenes]

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.(Psalms 53:3)

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[Georges]

How did death enter in if children are sinless?


Never said they weren't....said they are born sinless and learn it...

Why aren't sinless children immune to death and treated any differently than sinful beings?

Children learn sin by imatation...not held accountable until they learn the law.

They die because they have inherited the sinful nature of their parents.

They die because they are taught the sinful behavior of thier partents....it's hard for me to believe Abraham is going to hell because of his parents...he did live before Christ BTW.

The definition of sin is to miss the mark. Since children have to learn to be good, they sin because they miss the mark. God may not hold them accountable as Children but they are still sinful and I didn't teach my toddler to disobey me so you can't say that all sin is learned from the parents.

Amazing S......Children learn both Good and Bad....period. They are quick learners...born clean, learn quick. Thanks for at least acknowledging the accountability part.

As I said in an earlier post....YOU WIN...... :bday: :bday: :bday: You've convinced me....Children are born/concieved sinful......I'm sure there are millions of aborted babies burning in hell right now cause they haven't been baptised yet......the Devils domain is full of little children burning because of Adams sin.....

HOW STUPID IS THAT?

Of course they are not........the God I know is a merciful God who (I'm convinced) would not cause children to suffer because of Adams sin.

My apologies to the people in this thread and forum for the graphic description above...it just frustrates me a little.

 

[Sothenes]

As I said in an earlier post....YOU WIN...... :bday: :bday: :bday: You've convinced me....Children are born/concieved sinful......I'm sure there are millions of aborted babies burning in hell right now cause they haven't been baptised yet......the Devils domain is full of little children burning because of Adams sin.....

HOW STUPID IS THAT?

Of course they are not........the God I know is a merciful God who (I'm convinced) would not cause children to suffer because of Adams sin.

My apologies to the people in this thread and forum for the graphic description above...it just frustrates me a little.

But Jesus said, "Allow the little children, and don't forbid them to come to me; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to ones like these."-Matthew 19:14 WEB

 

[Imagican]

"Good" and "bad" are extraordinarily, irreducibly subjective. Different people from different religions, cultures, and countries will give you completely different answers to this question; so different, in fact, that I honestly view this question as meaningless.

And Nov, you would.

Since you 'have no religion' other than that you are 'your own God', it is left up to YOU to decide what is 'right' or what is 'wrong'. This being the case, I am sure that it IS difficult for you to understand the concept.

As Christians, however, we are given a 'code of ethics' of a sort and the acceptance of this gives us a 'general' idea of what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. And contrary to what many believe that view Christianity from the 'outside', this does NOT make them better than anyone else. It simply shows that they accept the Creator and wish to follow His will.

 

[Imagican]

Actually the 'truth' of this matter is children are born with the stain of Adam's sin and they need redemption if they will be saved when they die (no matter what age ) because 'no one' goes to the Father unless they go through Christ. All human beings need Christ’s merits applied to them if they will be saved in the end.

Babies of course are not born or guilty of any personal sins or evil until they reach an age of reason where they begin to know right from wrong and chose to sin against God and neighbor or against their own body.

So how do we go about redeeming a child who can not speak or consciously chose to accept Christ on a personal level?

Baptism. Redemption from the fall of mankind is free and for 'all' and baptism is the normal (but not limited to) means of man receiving God’s grace of redemption.

Now salvation, that’s another topic altogether.

Boy, I hope there are none that accept what you have offered, my friend. For what you offer is that a 'baby' MUST be sprinkled or baptised in order to be 'saved'. That is a Catholic doctrine that COMPLETELY contradicts the Word.

Now, I, personally choose the Word over the teachings of man, for man CANNOT save. So, no matter WHAT one believes through the wisdom of men, it WILL not stand up when it comes to the 'truth'. And the 'truth' is that a child is UNABLE to be held responsible for their actions util they are able to discern what they do and realize that it is wrong.

And NO amount of sprinkling or dunking makes a BIT of differnce until one is able to understand what the purpose is. And this takes NO age into consideration. Two years of age, two hundred years of age, it makes NO difference whatsoever for one to be baptised if their acceptance of Christ isn't the purpose.

I believe that the Jews offer an pretty good time frame to this question in their rituals of man-hood and woman-hood. I think that it's 13 or so that boys become men and girls become women. Don't quote me on this, but I believe that there IS a reason for this ritual that goes BEYOND man's wisdom.