Is Man Inherently Good or Inherently Bad?

[Imagican]

Mutz, you ARE 'the man'. Amaze me each time I read your words.

EXACTLY Novum. For without the 'true purpose' of one's actions being in line with the Creator, (WE WERE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE), our actions, whether GOOD or EVIL can ONLY be performed for OUR OWN benefit, (to satisfy OURSELVES). Performed for HOW it benefits ME rather than done out of the LOVE that is required to fulfill our TRUE purpose. For I find it difficult that 'this love' can even be understood or known without the revelation offered by our Father and His Son.

Nov, love is GIVING not taking. Yes, there are many that have sacrificed much or most of their lives to offer to others, yet have NO religious beliefs of God or Christ, (not many though), and even these do 'what' they do for their OWN gain. Whether it be to 'pat themselves on the shoulder', or 'show everyone else', etc..........

The love that was offered us through God's Son was a TOTAL GIVING of Himself so that we may prosper in this 'same love'. An example, if you will, of how this kind of sacrifice is 'the TRUE learning of love', and what we 'should' be striving for. Without the example, we are unable to understand TRUE love.

 

[Novum]

I had a feeling this would happen.

For without the 'true purpose' of one's actions being in line with the Creator,

Subjective; this is your own belief.

(WE WERE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE),

Subjective; this is your own belief.

our actions, whether GOOD or EVIL can ONLY be performed for OUR OWN benefit, (to satisfy OURSELVES).

Subjective; this is your own belief.

Performed for HOW it benefits ME rather than done out of the LOVE that is required to fulfill our TRUE purpose.

Subjective; this is your own belief.

For I find it difficult that 'this love' can even be understood or known without the revelation offered by our Father and His Son.

Subjective; this is your own belief.

Nov, love is GIVING not taking.

Yes.

Yes, there are many that have sacrificed much or most of their lives to offer to others, yet have NO religious beliefs of God or Christ, (not many though), and even these do 'what' they do for their OWN gain.

Whether it be to 'pat themselves on the shoulder', or 'show everyone else', etc..........

Evidence? Any at all? Something other than your own opinions?

The love that was offered us through God's Son was a TOTAL GIVING of Himself so that we may prosper in this 'same love'.

Subjective; this is your own belief.

An example, if you will, of how this kind of sacrifice is 'the TRUE learning of love', and what we 'should' be striving for.

Subjective; this is your own belief.

Without the example, we are unable to understand TRUE love.

Imagican, there is only one sentence in this entire post of yours that most people - including nonchristians - would likely agree with. I'm not sure what you think you're doing by throwing your beliefs rapid-fire at me; it's as if you see me as a moving target and are doing all you can to get something, anything, to hit. It won't work. I, and others, have no room for mere subjectivity and personal opinions when we are dealing with issues of ethics, morality, and religion.

 

[JM]

Is man (humans) inherently good or inherently bad?

Based on my observations and the various literature I have read, it would appear the secular world believes that mankind (humankind) is inherently good.

My opinion on the matter is based on what the Bible says and based on what I have studied it seems clear, at least to me, that mankind is inherently bad. I also personally believe, based on my study of Scripture, that mankind inherited this bad from the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. In fact I believe that mankind inherited a sin nature and are in fact a slave to that nature.

Now based on what I gather from Scripture, when one repents of their sin and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior they are freed from that sin nature, however; Christians are still affected by itâ€â€but Christians have what unbelievers do notâ€â€God working within them to fight the sin nature . I also believe that God not only frees a Christian from the sin nature but He also gives enabling grace that allows them to over come sin in their lives.

So please tell me what you think.

Absolute correct. I can’t believe I missed this thread.

Genesis 2:16-17 Adam's death for disobedience
Romans 5:12 That same death passes upon us
Ephesians 2:1-3 Necessary for us to be quickened who were dead
Colossians 2:13 Necessary for us to be quickened who were dead
Psalm 51:5 David a sinner from conception onward
Psalm 58:3 Wickedness from birth
John 3:5-6 New birth necessary to enter kingdom
Genesis 6:5 The thoughts of man's heart only evil continually
Genesis 8:21 The heart evil from youth
Ecclesiastes 9:3 Hearts are filled up with evil
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all else
Mark 7:21-23 Evil acts come from a depraved heart
John 3:19 Men love darkness rather than light
Romans 8:7-8 The mind is set against God and cannot please him.
1 Corinthians 2:14 Unregenerate cannot understand spiritual things
Ephesians 4:17-19 dark understanding & hardness of heart
Ephesians 5:8 We also were once darkness
Titus 1:15 The unbelievers very minds and consciences are corrupt
John 8:44 The will of the unbeliever is to do devil's will
Ephesians 2:1-2 following the prince of the power of the air
2 Timothy 2:25-26 captured by the devil
1 John 3:10 children of the devil
1 John 5:19 world in the power of the evil one
John 8:34 everyone who sins is slave to sin
Romans 6:20 slaves to sin
Titus 3:3 slaves to sinful passions
2 Chronicles 6:36 true of entire human race
Job 15:14-16 man cannot be clean
Psalm 130:3 nobody could stand if the Lord marked iniquity
Psalm 143:2 no living man is righteous before Lord
Proverbs 20:9 none can say they made their heart clean
Ecclesiastes 7:20 not a just man on earth
Ecclesiastes 7:29 not created that way, but fell
Isaiah 53:6 all have gone astray and each has gone astray
Isaiah 64:6 even righteous deed like a polluted garment
Romans 3:9-12 all are under the power of sin
James 3:2, 6, 8 unable to bridle any passion
1 John 1:8, 10 if we say we have no sin we are self-deceived
Job 14:4 impossible to bring a clean thing out of an unclean
Jeremiah 13:23 Cannot change ourselves
Matthew 7:16-18 a bad tree cannot bear good fruit
Matthew 12:33 Must make the tree good for fruit to be acceptable
John 6:44 No one can come apart from being drawn
John 6:65 Coming must be granted by the father
Romans 11:35-36 We cannot give a gift to God
1 Corinthians 4:7 If you are different, it is because God made you that way
2 Corinthians 3:5 We are not sufficient of ourselves (this deals with Paul's call
to the ministry primarily, of course)
2 Timothy 3:7-8 never able to come to a knowledge of truth
Titus 1:12-13 Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Titus 1:15-16 even their mind and conscience is defiled... reprobate
James 2:10-11 offense in one point of the law renders one guilty of the entire law
James 3:12 no fountain can bring forth both salt water and fresh.
Psalm 22:29 none can keep alive his own soul
- Compiled by Richard Bacon

I confess: Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof
1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )

2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

5._____ The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

 

[Vic C.]

Noc, allow me to backpedal a moment. I too, missed this thread.

Man is born without sin...and learns it. Very early and very quickly.

However, in alignment with Judaism, a child is not held to responsiblity until he is taught what sin is....you are taught what sin is by what is in the Torah.

In Judaism, the age of accountablity is around 12-13 when a Boy/Girl are Bar/Bat Mitzvahed. Until that age the parents are responsible and the child legally is not.

What are they (children) doing from birth to the Bar Mitzvah age? Learning the Torah...

PS.....inherited sin, and the thought that man is instinctively evil/bad is a basic Gnostic fundamental.

A great peice of cultural history. Thanks George. I think Thess shed some light on this when he related his experiences with his children to this topic. Yes, I agree that sin has corrupted our nature. So in effect, I believe it is this sin nature that we inherit.

Someone mentioned a verse in Psalm 51. I'd like to counter with:

Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

 

[Imagican]

I had a feeling this would happen.

For without the 'true purpose' of one's actions being in line with the Creator,

Subjective; this is your own belief.

[quote:2af6c](WE WERE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE),

Subjective; this is your own belief.

our actions, whether GOOD or EVIL can ONLY be performed for OUR OWN benefit, (to satisfy OURSELVES).

Subjective; this is your own belief.

Performed for HOW it benefits ME rather than done out of the LOVE that is required to fulfill our TRUE purpose.

Subjective; this is your own belief.

For I find it difficult that 'this love' can even be understood or known without the revelation offered by our Father and His Son.

Subjective; this is your own belief.

Nov, love is GIVING not taking.

Yes.

Yes, there are many that have sacrificed much or most of their lives to offer to others, yet have NO religious beliefs of God or Christ, (not many though), and even these do 'what' they do for their OWN gain.

Whether it be to 'pat themselves on the shoulder', or 'show everyone else', etc..........

Evidence? Any at all? Something other than your own opinions?

The love that was offered us through God's Son was a TOTAL GIVING of Himself so that we may prosper in this 'same love'.

Subjective; this is your own belief.

An example, if you will, of how this kind of sacrifice is 'the TRUE learning of love', and what we 'should' be striving for.

Subjective; this is your own belief.

Without the example, we are unable to understand TRUE love.

Imagican, there is only one sentence in this entire post of yours that most people - including nonchristians - would likely agree with. I'm not sure what you think you're doing by throwing your beliefs rapid-fire at me; it's as if you see me as a moving target and are doing all you can to get something, anything, to hit. It won't work. I, and others, have no room for mere subjectivity and personal opinions when we are dealing with issues of ethics, morality, and religion.[/quote:2af6c].

Nov,

I thought I already went over this. Of course one MUST believe for what I offer to be understood. That is a 'given'. That you set 'yourself' up to be God could ONLY result in your understanding being that which it is. No surprise here.

And as far as your analogy of 'moving targets', NOV, I am a marksman. Rarely am I able to miss my target, for the ammo and equipment that I use is not of 'my own design', but so much greater than our puny imaginations that our material creations and technology pale in comparison.

So, you want to deal with ethics. No problem. We have already been through that also. Your ethics are based on NOTHING more than the mere understanding of man. This is a weak weapon when compared to the understanding of that which 'created' our minds themselves.

I know, I know. You 'think' therefore you ARE. I have been to your schools, my friend. I have fallen, (in the past), to their teachings of 'self' AS GOD. It too pales in comparison to TRUE knowledge that goes beyond the 'flesh'. And, Nov, I realize that these words that I speak to you are seemingly nothing but the 'apparent 'ramblings' of a man that is deluded into thinking that there is something beyond the mere power of the human mind. But the reality is, I don't THINK, I KNOW.

I dig you Nov. You are about speaking your mind and offering the objective rather than the spiritual. That is the nature of the educators that believe that they can master the mind and therefore are 'beyond' anything that they can neither touch, or feel, or taste. The problem lies within the nature of 'whether this is ALL' that exists in the 'true' reality of our lives. You have chosen YES as your answer. I have opened not only my mind, BUT MY HEART also and herein lies the differece. God is NOT only the ability to DO what He has chosen to DO, but the WHY He has chosen to DO IT. If you would only come to THIS reality, your understanding could surpass ALL the professors that you could 'learn from'.

I say these things NOT to belittle you my friend, but in the hopes that maybe a word or two that I may offer may allow you to question 'your reality' and seek something BIGGER and BETTER. Something with substance that goes beyond mere mortal understanding and that offers 'truth' beyond compare.

Love ya bro,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and might I add, "Get behind me Satan", for the wiles of the devil WILL not prevail against those that are prepared. And God HAS prepared for battle those that 'believe'. Therefore your weapons are of NO EFFECT whatsoever. Those that Satan OWNS are his to master as his pupets. But, those that belong to God are FREE to live as they were created to live. Without the chains or ropes that bind those that live for themselves through 'their god'. And an impotent god indeed, with ONLY the power that was given, NOTHING of his own. Weak and impotent when compared to the 'CREATOR'. Good luck, my friend, for so long as this planet remains, there will ALWAYS be a remnant to warn those willing to listen.

 

[Imagican]

Nice additions, JM. Once again, I see that you are a man that chooses to be 'led' by the Spirit rather than simply accept the teachings of men. That is a 'good' thing, for there is ONLY one answer that IS the truth.

 

[Novum]

I thought I already went over this. Of course one MUST believe for what I offer to be understood. That is a 'given'.

I'm glad we're in agreement then. Can you provide any reason why one should believe, then?

That you set 'yourself' up to be God could ONLY result in your understanding being that which it is. No surprise here.

You continue to claim that I set myself up as my own god. This annoys me - not because what you're saying is even remotely true, but because you just keep saying it as if it were true. I'll repeat my earlier challenge to you, then:

Imagican, please provide for this forum an exact quote from me where I stated that I am my own god, or stop making up lies about me. This has gone far enough. Put up, or shut up.

You don't see me spreading libel about you; it is therefore rather unfair for you to do the same to me.

And as far as your analogy of 'moving targets', NOV, I am a marksman. Rarely am I able to miss my target, for the ammo and equipment that I use is not of 'my own design', but so much greater than our puny imaginations that our material creations and technology pale in comparison.

How lovely for you. Yet despite your supernatural array of equipment, a good old-fashioned ad hominem is never beyond you.

So, you want to deal with ethics. No problem. We have already been through that also. Your ethics are based on NOTHING more than the mere understanding of man.

Yes. Such "mere understanding" is the best we'll ever have.

This is a weak weapon when compared to the understanding of that which 'created' our minds themselves.

More wishful thinking. How about you use your supernatural ammo and equipment to drum up some evidence for your claims? Put up, or shut up.

I know, I know. You 'think' therefore you ARE. I have been to your schools, my friend. I have fallen, (in the past), to their teachings of 'self' AS GOD.

Please provide some evidence for your outrageous claim that "my schools" teach that the self is god. Put up, or shut up.

It too pales in comparison to TRUE knowledge that goes beyond the 'flesh'. And, Nov, I realize that these words that I speak to you are seemingly nothing but the 'apparent 'ramblings' of a man that is deluded into thinking that there is something beyond the mere power of the human mind. But the reality is, I don't THINK, I KNOW.

Emphasis mine. Imagican, you'll just have to do better than that. If we had the money, we could visit the Islamic nation of your choice, line up thousands of citizens, and hear "I don't THINK, I KNOW Islam is true." repeated thousands of times. Your claim to "know" is thoroughly unremarkable.

I dig you Nov. You are about speaking your mind and offering the objective rather than the spiritual.

Sure.

That is the nature of the educators that believe that they can master the mind and therefore are 'beyond' anything that they can neither touch, or feel, or taste.

You appear to have some kind of vendetta against the education system. That's way out of the scope of this forum; take your ranting elsewhere.

The problem lies within the nature of 'whether this is ALL' that exists in the 'true' reality of our lives. You have chosen YES as your answer. I have opened not only my mind, BUT MY HEART also and herein lies the differece. God is NOT only the ability to DO what He has chosen to DO, but the WHY He has chosen to DO IT. If you would only come to THIS reality, your understanding could surpass ALL the professors that you could 'learn from'.

I say these things NOT to belittle you my friend, but in the hopes that maybe a word or two that I may offer may allow you to question 'your reality' and seek something BIGGER and BETTER. Something with substance that goes beyond mere mortal understanding and that offers 'truth' beyond compare.

I have, currently do, and will continue to question my beliefs. All that I ask is for evidence - for a reason to question them. You have provided nothing but empty, baseless rhetoric, and that is no reason to convert.

In fact, forget about me for a moment. If you desire to convert or convince anyone who has even a middle-school education in critical thinking, you will suffer nothing but failure until you can show evidence. Once again, Put up, or shut up.

I have purposely avoided calling you a liar, and that is because I want to think you're better than that. If you cannot provide serious evidence for your claims about your god, that's fine with me. Just say so and I will stop calling you out on it. The same goes for your oft-repeated, yet never-supported claims about me as "my own god".

 

[Novum]

Oh, and might I add, "Get behind me Satan", for the wiles of the devil WILL not prevail against those that are prepared.

I'm confused. Why do you want Satan on your side?

And God HAS prepared for battle those that 'believe'. Therefore your weapons are of NO EFFECT whatsoever.

My weapons? Are you claiming that you and I are in some kind of war? I thought we were only discussing here, but it seems you've taken things a few levels farther.

Those that Satan OWNS are his to master as his pupets.

Are you implying that Satan somehow "owns" me? What is that supposed to mean, and how is that possible, given that I don't believe satan exists?

But, those that belong to God are FREE to live as they were created to live. Without the chains or ropes that bind those that live for themselves through 'their god'. And an impotent god indeed, with ONLY the power that was given, NOTHING of his own. Weak and impotent when compared to the 'CREATOR'. Good luck, my friend, for so long as this planet remains, there will ALWAYS be a remnant to warn those willing to listen.

I'm starting to think you're mildly delusional. This is quickly leaving the realm of rational debate in favor of the realm of personal wild-eyed fantasy. Logic has no place where you're going.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Reminder, this topic is about: Is Man Inherently Good or Inherently Band?

I notice two member are having a personal discussion that has nothing to do with the topic at handâ€â€personal discussions are to be done in private via PM’s. Any other posts that have nothing to do with the topic will be deleted.

 

[Imagican]

I apologize Noc and by NO MEANS have intentions of 'hijacking' this thread. Really!!! I was goaded and fell for it. I apologize and will do my best to deal with it as instructed.

MEC

 

[Soma-Sight]

Man is inherently neutral.

 

[father]

Is man (humans) inherently good or inherently bad?

Based on my observations and the various literature I have read, it would appear the secular world believes that mankind (humankind) is inherently good.

My opinion on the matter is based on what the Bible says and based on what I have studied it seems clear, at least to me, that mankind is inherently bad. I also personally believe, based on my study of Scripture, that mankind inherited this bad from the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. In fact I believe that mankind inherited a sin nature and are in fact a slave to that nature.

Now based on what I gather from Scripture, when one repents of their sin and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior they are freed from that sin nature, however; Christians are still affected by itâ€â€but Christians have what unbelievers do notâ€â€God working within them to fight the sin nature . I also believe that God not only frees a Christian from the sin nature but He also gives enabling grace that allows them to over come sin in their lives.

So please tell me what you think.

I also personally believe, based on my study of Scripture, that mankind inherited this bad from the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. In fact I believe that mankind inherited a sin nature and are in fact a slave to that nature.

Reading up on EVOLUTION, couldn't possibly hurt, now could it !?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Is man (humans) inherently good or inherently bad?

Based on my observations and the various literature I have read, it would appear the secular world believes that mankind (humankind) is inherently good.

My opinion on the matter is based on what the Bible says and based on what I have studied it seems clear, at least to me, that mankind is inherently bad. I also personally believe, based on my study of Scripture, that mankind inherited this bad from the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. In fact I believe that mankind inherited a sin nature and are in fact a slave to that nature.

Now based on what I gather from Scripture, when one repents of their sin and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior they are freed from that sin nature, however; Christians are still affected by itâ€â€but Christians have what unbelievers do notâ€â€God working within them to fight the sin nature . I also believe that God not only frees a Christian from the sin nature but He also gives enabling grace that allows them to over come sin in their lives.

So please tell me what you think.

I also personally believe, based on my study of Scripture, that mankind inherited this bad from the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. In fact I believe that mankind inherited a sin nature and are in fact a slave to that nature.

Reading up on EVOLUTION, couldn't possibly hurt, now could it !?

What?

 

[father]

[quote="Nocturnal_Principal_X":3a3eb]Is man (humans) inherently good or inherently bad?

Based on my observations and the various literature I have read, it would appear the secular world believes that mankind (humankind) is inherently good.

My opinion on the matter is based on what the Bible says and based on what I have studied it seems clear, at least to me, that mankind is inherently bad. I also personally believe, based on my study of Scripture, that mankind inherited this bad from the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. In fact I believe that mankind inherited a sin nature and are in fact a slave to that nature.

Now based on what I gather from Scripture, when one repents of their sin and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior they are freed from that sin nature, however; Christians are still affected by itâ€â€but Christians have what unbelievers do notâ€â€God working within them to fight the sin nature . I also believe that God not only frees a Christian from the sin nature but He also gives enabling grace that allows them to over come sin in their lives.

So please tell me what you think.

I also personally believe, based on my study of Scripture, that mankind inherited this bad from the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. In fact I believe that mankind inherited a sin nature and are in fact a slave to that nature.

Reading up on EVOLUTION, couldn't possibly hurt, now could it !?

What?[/quote:3a3eb]


Your personal belief as to why mankind is inherently bad ( Adam sinned )) is absolutely irrelevant and it does not hold any water. My suggestion to you was to read up on evolution because evolution is a FACT. If you can reconcile evolution with your observation that mankind is inherently bad, there might be some credibility there for you !!

 

[gazzamor]

Father, I’m absolutely astounded at your statement that evolution is a FACT! To suggest the us humans evolved from the lower forms of life which evolution teaches; that we are here by accident is rubbish. For one thing it takes God out of the equation. And another thing: Jesus Christ did not come down to this earth to save the sons of apes; he came to save his children that he created. And as far as man being inherently bad, the bible says that we have fallen natures and are incapable of doing good. That is why we have to be born again. Jeremiah 13: 23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

And for those who seem to believe that children learn sinful practices from their parents, I would suggest that you go to a library and read the book “Lord of the Fliesâ€Â. It’s about a group of children marooned on an Island after the plane they were travelling in crashed into the sea. Left to their own devices, with no guidance for right and wrong, degenerated lower than depraved animals. Did they learn that from their parents? No! But it was their fallen sinful natures. Man left to his own devices degenerate lower than the animals. That is why God gave this world His Ten Commandment laws. This is why we have to have laws to govern our lives in the countries that we live in.

God Bless

gazzamor

 

[Novum]

Father, I’m absolutely astounded at your statement that evolution is a FACT! ... For one thing it takes God out of the equation.

Not true. Millions of Christians, including a number on this very forum, have reconciled their belief in God with the fact that evolution has, does, and will continue to occur.

And for those who seem to believe that children learn sinful practices from their parents, I would suggest that you go to a library and read the book “Lord of the Fliesâ€Â. It’s about a group of children marooned on an Island after the plane they were travelling in crashed into the sea. Left to their own devices, with no guidance for right and wrong, degenerated lower than depraved animals. Did they learn that from their parents? No! But it was their fallen sinful natures. Man left to his own devices degenerate lower than the animals. That is why God gave this world His Ten Commandment laws. This is why we have to have laws to govern our lives in the countries that we live in.

The concept of "fiction" is beyond some people. :roll:

 

[Rick the holypig]

put one toy in a crib with two babies & you will have your answer.

one will have the toy while the other one cries. we are born sinners.

 

[Imagican]

nice point!