Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[JLB]

jlb



Easily. The Death/Obedience of Christ made many righteous before they were born. One doesnt have to be born for Christ to have died for their sins. If Christ died for ones sins, they have righteousness imputed to them 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So a person that Christ died for, doesnt know they have righteousness imputed to them, but they will know once God gives them Faith.

No sir, we are not made righteous, (justified) before we hear and believe the Gospel.


Based on your theory we are righteous by birth, which excludes the need to be born again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Interesting ... the verse always gave me pause ... didn't seem to fit with other scriptures (Matt. 9:2-7; Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21-26)
Tom Constable says concerning John 20:23 ... The second part of each conditional clause in this verse is in the passive voice and the perfect tense in the Greek text. The passive voice indicates that someone has already done the forgiving or retaining. That person must be God,

Greek is Greek to me (bad pun) ... but his Greek explanation would make John 20:23 fit with Matt. 9:2-7; Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21-26 so I want to trust Constable's explanation.

.... on the other hand, I could become a priest and absolve Wondering of her sins on the condition that she did penance and treated me nicely and became 'reformed' ... hmmm ... which way to go .. tough one

You're right about the explanation in Greek.
And even in the CC it's explained that it's God doing the forgiving and not the priest...
this is really stressed. (some don't understand it anyway - I won't stop to give examples).

Another explanation I've heard is close to yours....
The retaining or loosing is done in heaven FIRST...and then on earth.
This might actually be the same explanation....

Yes. Treating you nicely WOULD BE PENANCE!!!!!!
When are you going to become an "arminian" -- whatever that is...

 

[Fastfredy0]

The Death/Obedience of Christ made many righteous before they were born.
I'll take a shot at this.

God is eternal and immutable, he has no succession of moments, everything is known to Him at once. So in His mind things never change, people don't become saved (though God understands how men understand change and men change)
In God's mind His elect have always been righteous (before the foundation of the world I knew you). It's always been a 'done deal' to Him as there is no succession of time. In a similar fashion Jesus can die for those that do not yet exist; who are nothing ... or people can be saved looking into the future when Christ would die for them.

The old "you have been saved, you are being saved and you will be saved".

Aside: Eternity is a mystery to everyone

 

[Fastfredy0]

When are you going to become an "arminian" -- whatever that is...

LOL ... sanctification means moving forward toward the image of Christ, so there's no turning back. *giggles*

 

[GodsGrace]

The Death/Obedience of Christ made many righteous before they were born.
I'll take a shot at this.

God is eternal and immutable, he has no succession of moments, everything is known to Him at once. So in His mind things never change, people don't become saved (though God understands how men understand change and men change)
In God's mind His elect have always been righteous (before the foundation of the world I knew you). It's always been a 'done deal' to Him as there is no succession of time. In a similar fashion Jesus can die for those that do not yet exist; who are nothing ... or people can be saved looking into the future when Christ would die for them.

The old "you have been saved, you are being saved and you will be saved".

Aside: Eternity is a mystery to everyone

"you have been saved" does not refer to a moment before time...
it refers to the moment when a person BECOMES saved....

The problem is still present however....

Even your explanation above...which has been considered....
does not explain the NEED for GIVING FAITH to a person because it would mean they've
had this faith all along.

I hate to bring this up....
but this is why free will is so important and all-encompassing for every doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL ... sanctification means moving forward toward the image of Christ, so there's no turning back. *giggles*

Becoming a traditional Christian is not a step back...
it's a step forward...

 

[Walpole]

Apparently, you missed the theme of my post. I will try one more time.
The question: Is man not really capable of seeking God?
Your answer: Yes, Cornelius did of his own free will
My response: The Cornelius story does not state the cause of Cornelius attitude or seeking. It could be 'free will' as you assume, or God as I assume.
..... then I gave 6ish examples where Scripture shows God was the cause that you ignored

.... there, as simple as I can state it. Where in the Cornelius story did it say God was NOT the cause of Cornelius seeking GOD, where? Why are my examples not valid for showing God caused those I listed to seek him?



See post #246


We all believe that ... lol. When it come to believing salvifically it is NOT possible not to chose. The definition has no practical meaning. Put some 'meat' on it.
Where did this power to believe salvifically come from (what is the CAUSE)????
Is there an internal roulette wheel in your head? Your decision was an effect. What was/is the cause of that effect??

Apparently you missed Reformed theology 101 in Sunday school. Let me recap the Reformed Ordo Salutis for you...

- Predestination
- Election
- Calling
- Regeneration
- Faith
- Repentance
- Justification
- Adoption
- Sanctification
- Perseverance
- Glorification

Sources: Here and Here

"If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith." - R. C. Sproul


Now that the Reformed position is established - that regeneration precedes faith - we can turn again to that pesky Cornelius, whose example completely destroys and refutes the Reformed's Ordo Salutis.

Cornelius is not regenerated when he prays to God. He hadn't heard the Gospel. He was not a believer in Jesus Christ. He did not receive the Holy Spirit. He even tried to worship Peter. Remember faith comes by hearing and he didn't hear anything yet! In Reformed theology, without any regeneration, he has no capacity to respond to God in any favorable way. Yet Cornelius is a righteous centurion who pleased and seeks God (Acts 10:22). According to Reformed theology, this is impossible!

Finally, here is St. Peter putting the death knell into Reformed theology...

Acts 11
13“And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15“And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16“And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

 

[JLB]

The Death/Obedience of Christ made many righteous before they were born.
I'll take a shot at this.

God is eternal and immutable, he has no succession of moments, everything is known to Him at once. So in His mind things never change, people don't become saved (though God understands how men understand change and men change)
In God's mind His elect have always been righteous (before the foundation of the world I knew you). It's always been a 'done deal' to Him as there is no succession of time. In a similar fashion Jesus can die for those that do not yet exist; who are nothing ... or people can be saved looking into the future when Christ would die for them.

The old "you have been saved, you are being saved and you will be saved".

Aside: Eternity is a mystery to everyone

So you agree with brightfame52 in his assessment that we were made righteous, before we were born?

Just trying to make sure I am understanding you.


I agree, eternity is a mystery.




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yet Cornelius is a righteous centurion who pleased and seeks God (Acts 10:22). According to Reformed theology, this is impossible!

You did not address my comments for a second time.

Cause and Effect, cause and effect.

 

[Walpole]

You did not address my comments for a second time.

Cause and Effect, cause and effect.

Previously addressed in a post YOU replied to...

"Not only would he be contradicting his own words and the words of Scripture, but he would be contradicting our very nature. We are creatures made in the image and likeness of our Creator. Hence man has an intellect and a will. He can thus know and love. Man is therefore a creature attuned to seeking causes and ends, and since God is necessarily the cause and the end of man, it is natural that man would seek Him. From the beginning, man has sought God, even those who were not privileged with receiving His revelation, i.e. the Greek philosophers. It is only when man acts contrary to his nature and his reason is clouded by his sin does God seem hard to find." - My post, #237

 

[Serving Zion]

Penal substitution is a Protestant belief. Catholics and Orthodox do not hold it.

Alright, well as I've said already, my experience of having approached the Catholic church in the past has rather put me off. I am now genuinely unsure of how to approach them at all because of the last time I asked I got so rudely fobbed off. I wouldn't mind approaching them if they were in fact approachable, but the fact is that their system and the size of their institution tends to empower their condescension to the degree that it is practically incapable of acquiring serious adherents.

I was suggesting the goat that was sacrificed for the sins of the people, would “pay the price”, the punishment that was due for their sins,

Is it no wonder then, that the blood of animals could never take away sin? (Hebrews 10:26-31). This is why we speak of a better covenant. I don't think of Jesus Christ as a scapegoat because that is to punish the innocent in order to acquit the guilty - both of which are an abomination in the eyes of Adonai (Proverbs 17:15).

 

[Serving Zion]

After reading the summary of Christian theories on Christs work it brought into focus where I have come to.
Jesus had to die, to take the worst that could be done to Him and to say to the Father, "forgive them for they do not know what they are doing"
Jesus could forgive sins, by saying your sins are forgiven. He delegated this authority to the apostles.

By Jesus taking the worst man could throw at Him and forgiving them, if we can accept we also are part of that crowd, we too are forgiven. By being part of the crowd we accept we need to walk the way of Jesus which He demonstrated, in reality there is no other way.

Our calling is to walk as Jesus walked. From heart to skin, love, clarity, openness, purity and truth, is Gods way.
The group we walk with, just need to be willing to learn to speak in these ways. The problem transcends our circumstances or those around us, it is the light shinning from within that matters.

It is clear until people have open hearts and are prepared to deal with their direction in life and how they love and care for others, all the theology in the world adds up to nothing. These forums declare often how at a simple level, accepting Jesus asks us to be open, is not accepted as the beginning place of walking with Jesus, or even walking with Jesus is bring a believer. I spent one year, about, pointing out to a church leader on a forum their venom mouth and closed heart testified of something very different about the reality of Christ in their lives. In the end they did repent, but I do not know to what degree. It seems often these realities matter more than theology. Without the right heart things will never be clear.

God bless you

Absolutely! That is why Jesus said that the weeds are to be pulled out and burned before the crop is harvested. There is no way, literally, that the crop can yield it's proper fruit when it is continually being choked by thorns.

 

[Walpole]

Absolutely! That is why Jesus said that the weeds are to be pulled out and burned before the crop is harvested. There is no way, literally, that the crop can yield it's proper fruit when it is continually being choked by thorns.

You actually have it backwards. It is at the harvest, not beforehand, when the weeds are separated from the wheat...

Matthew 13:24-30 ---> He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’"

Christ is teaching that uprooting the weeds while still growing would actually destroy the wheat.

 

[Walpole]

Alright, well as I've said already, my experience of having approached the Catholic church in the past has rather put me off. I am now genuinely unsure of how to approach them at all because of the last time I asked I got so rudely fobbed off. I wouldn't mind approaching them if they were in fact approachable, but the fact is that their system and the size of their institution tends to empower their condescension to the degree that it is practically incapable of acquiring serious adherents.

Is it no wonder then, that the blood of animals could never take away sin? (Hebrews 10:26-31). This is why we speak of a better covenant. I don't think of Jesus Christ as a scapegoat because that is to punish the innocent in order to acquit the guilty - both of which are an abomination in the eyes of Adonai (Proverbs 17:15).

I am sorry you were treated rudely. I am a Catholic and if you are genuinely curious, I would be happy to try and answer your questions. Feel free to send me a private message.

 

[Serving Zion]

You actually have it backwards. It is at the harvest, not beforehand, when the weeds are separated from the wheat...

That's exactly what I said! First the weeds are removed and then the wheat is gathered into the barn. .. or do you think the word tote in Matthew 13:43 is not really saying that Matthew 13:42 must come first?

 

[Walpole]

That's exactly what I said! First[/u] the weeds are removed and then the wheat is gathered into the barn. .. or do you think the word tote in Matthew 13:43 is not really saying that Matthew 13:42 must come first?

I'm confused.

You said: "That is why Jesus said that the weeds are to be pulled out and burned before the crop is harvested. There is no way, literally, that the crop can yield it's proper fruit when it is continually being choked by thorns."

But Jesus said: "Let both grow together until the harvest"


Jesus is stating that uprooting the weeds while still growing would actually destroy the wheat. There is a message there for those of us trying to be wheat in the midst of the weeds of this world.

 

[brightfame52]

But then,,,,according to you....
they would be saved even at birth BEFORE receiving this faith....

And how could that be if it's FAITH that saves us??

Ephesians 2:8-9
IT IS BY GRACE...THROUGH THE INSTRUMENT OF FAITH THAT WE HAVE BEEN SAVED....


Something is wrong with this concept of yours.

I already stated that those whom Christ died, rendered obedience to God for, were made righteous by that before they are born. Rom 5:19 Later they are given Faith to apprehend that, hence they become Justified by Faith, faith apprehends that one had been Justified by Christs Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[Serving Zion]

I am sorry you were treated rudely. I am a Catholic and if you are genuinely curious, I would be happy to try and answer your questions. Feel free to send me a private message.

Typical.

I'm confused.

You said: "That is why Jesus said that the weeds are to be pulled out and burned before the crop is harvested. There is no way, literally, that the crop can yield it's proper fruit when it is continually being choked by thorns."

But Jesus said: "Let both grow together until the harvest"


Jesus is stating that uprooting the weeds while still growing would actually destroy the wheat. There is a message there for those of us trying to be wheat in the midst of the weeds of this world.

It's because the young wheat is not sufficiently established that there is a real risk to it, that by pulling out the weeds it may dry up and die. God clearly shows His priorities in that He would prefer to suffer loss of the potential of His field than to lose even one of His precious plants.

The fact remains though, which you have evaded, the first word in Matthew 13:43 says that the weeds must be pulled out before the crop can be harvested.

 

[brightfame52]

Why would someone need to be righteous who had never been born; who had never had the opportunity to sin?

Why did Christ die for people that had not been born ? Thats an odd question Or maybe you dont believe Christ died for sinners unless they are born, which is a odd belief.

 

[Walpole]

Typical.


It's because the young wheat is not sufficiently established that there is a real risk to it, that by pulling out the weeds it may dry up and die. God clearly shows His priorities in that He would prefer to suffer loss of the potential of His field than to lose even one of His precious plants.

The fact remains though, which you have evaded, the first word in Matthew 13:43 says that the weeds must be pulled out before the crop can be harvested.

I have not avoided anything. I directly replied to your post. Again, I disagree entirely with your post. Your claim is contrary to the parable Jesus tells. He states the weeds are NOT pulled out from the wheat UNTIL the harvest time. Not beforehand, as you asserted in your post.

"Let both grow together until the harvest" - Matthew 13:30

When Jesus explains this parable, He explicitly states, "the harvest is the END of the world." (Mt. 13:39)