Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[GodsGrace]

I made my point. I believe the scripture teaches the federal headship of Adam.

Who said it doesn't??????

You said this:
Im speaking about Adams federal headship. In Adam all sin and died Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I replied that everyone on this forum agrees with you.
I didn't understand what your point was....but you could forget about it if you wish.

 

[brightfame52]

Who said it doesn't??????

You said this:
Im speaking about Adams federal headship. In Adam all sin and died Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I replied that everyone on this forum agrees with you.
I didn't understand what your point was....but you could forget about it if you wish.

Okay then. What is the problem?

 

[PeterJens]

John 6:44, says by Jesus, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS THEM.
Luke 19:10, "The son of man came to SEEK AND SAVE the lost."

I hated God and everything about Him until He put His calling upon my heart. It was still up to me what to do about His calling. I could have rejected it, but my life was in a terrible place beyond what I could handle as a non-believer, and I found myself calling out to God and searching for His comfort and protection with everything I had.

Yes, before His calling I couldn't seek after God, but nowhere in scripture does it say I can't seek God AFTER he calls me, before I am saved.

For me, being called by God, and then seeking Him out before being saved, was a very powerful step in my process of eventually being led to salvation.
I remember pursuing Him with all I was made of, once I was called by Him, but not yet saved.

It was the greatest crossroads in my life, and praise be to God, with the power of Christ I made the best decision of my life.

Bless us all in His holy name.
My name is Seasoned by Grace

This balances so well with many are called. but few are chosen.

God calls all who will listen. But like the parable of the seed and the sower, some have hard hearts and the word literally bounces off.

It is the word that brings life. It is the knowledge of God's heart and intention is to save those who will follow, because they want to.

Some hear God desires to save but exclude following, listening and learning as if relationships are born free with no considerations or respect. The merciful king parable is such an example.

We earn nothing but show a.clean heart and loving walk,

God bless you

 

[JLB]

We earn nothing but show a.clean heart and loving walk,

Well said sir!


Amen.




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Thats correct, thats what I posted ! The natural man under sin doesnt seek after the True God Rom 3:11, he may seek after a god, a god of his own making and z

That contradicts Acts 17:24-28 (NIV):

24 ‘The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 “For in him we live and move and have our being.” As some of your own poets have said, “We are his offspring.”​

​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I don't particularly care for gotquestions.
It's a reformed site that pushes that theology.

However, I will read it.....

OK. As usual, it all sounds very nice,,,,but it's not meant the way WE understand it.

Here's one paragraph from that article:

When God saves us, we are born again. He opens our eyes to the truth; He gives us faith and forgiveness and fellowship with Him. We become new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). In our newness of life, we are given godly desires (Psalm 73:25), a cleansed heart (Hebrews 10:22), and a new mind (1 Corinthians 2:16). In the power of the Holy Spirit, we begin to truly seek after God.

Look at the steps to salvation:
1. God saves us.
2. We are born again.

1. God opens our eyes.
2. HE gives us faith.

1. By the power of the Holy Spirit
2. We not begin to seek after God.


It's backwards Oz.

wondering,

Isn't the free gift of God eternal life (Rom 6:23)? That is, God saves and at that time we are born again, our eyes are opened, and we are justified by grace through faith?

Eph 2:8-9 confirm God gives us faith.

I agree with your point that beginning to seek after God as the final step is the wrong way around. It is the first step.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

2 Chronicles 7:14
11Thus Solomon finished the house of the LORD and the king’s palace, and successfully completed all that he had planned on doing in the house of the LORD and in his palace.

12Then the LORD appeared to Solomon at night and said to him, “I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice.
13“If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, 14and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

It was meant for a specific time...agreed.
I would have to say, however, that this part is pertinent even today:
My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin.

Wouldn't you agree that we are to be humble before God, pray and seek His face, turn from our wicked ways and He will forgive our sin?

Honestly, I don't hear this quoted too much...maybe in Australia it is?

I agree about the humility, praying and seeking God's face. It has general application but is not an interpretation in context.

We in Australia or Italy are not guaranteed what Joshua promised his people that God would hear their prayers, forgive their sins, and heal Australia and Italy.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,
As I know your aware, Psalm 14 and Psalm 53 are directed toward the enemies of Israel who seek to destroy her. We understand that King David was among the Prophets of God. Psalm 14 can be viewed as a prophesy for the destruction of the first Temple by Nebecanezzer and Psalm 53 can be viewed as prophesy for the destruction of second Temple by Titus.

Isiah 55 is speaking to Gods people as a whole in covenant and prophesies the Messiah.

I since you are trying to make a distinction between the people of God and the enemies of God?

SB,

My point was that in 2 Chron 7:14 the "people of God" were the Israelites and not Christians since the time of Christ.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

2 Chronicles 7:14 does apply to the Israelites, but why can it not be applied to everyone today? Could you imagine if everyone today would turn back to God do you not think that that would be a healing to all the nations as per heal their land?

FHG,

That wasn't my point. The verse was directed specifically to the Israelites in a particular situation. To make it apply to any country is reefing it out of context and making it say what it was not meant to say.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Mmh, here is KJV: 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me...
if I read it like this and how the words in the chapter sound, I can imagine Jesus meaning, the fact that He makes it possible that all men CAN (theoretically) come to Him. I don't think this means, that He actively seeks to draw all men to Him. ?

Lilac,

Seems to me you're engaging in eisegesis by including "I can imagine.... He makes it possible.... I don't think this means that He actively seeks to draw all men to Him."

You have added to what the verse states.

Oz

 

[stovebolts]

SB,

My point was that in 2 Chron 7:14 the "people of God" were the Israelites and not Christians since the time of Christ.

Oz

Good morning Oz.
Lots going on in my head at the moment. I don’t think I’m following you on this one. Can you please bring this back full circle please?

thanks.

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

That wasn't my point. The verse was directed specifically to the Israelites in a particular situation. To make it apply to any country is reefing it out of context and making it say what it was not meant to say.

Oz

I realize it was directed specifically to the Israelites at that time as they fell to worshipping idols, but I also see it as being directed to all who are not yet His own, as in if everyone today would turn back to God then He would heal our land/nations/people. The teachings in the OT are for all, just not the Israelites in many cases. These are God's lessons of obedience to His commands that still stand today. Maybe I am wrong, but at least that is how I see it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay then. What is the problem?

I'm sorry to say this brightfame...
but the problem is that you don't seem to read the whole bible and don't have
a correct interpretation of the ENTIRE bible, but perhaps take it piece by piece.

If you want to know the problem...please read again
post 490, 492, 495

In post 490 you're IMPUTING to children the sin of Adam.
I'm telling you that we are not imputed with sin....we are only responsible for our own sins...not anybody else's,
including Adam.

We suffer the the EFFECTS of Adam's sin....
our physical and spiritual death and our sinning is due to the effect of Adam's sin...
not because we are guilty of it. I gave you scripture.

Do you understand that we are not imputed with Adam's sin?
If you think we are,,,please provide a verse that says so...
not one that states we have experienced death because of him....

 

[OzSpen]

I'm sorry to say this brightfame...
but the problem is that you don't seem to read the whole bible and don't have
a correct interpretation of the ENTIRE bible, but perhaps take it piece by piece.

If you want to know the problem...please read again
post 490, 492, 495

In post 490 you're IMPUTING to children the sin of Adam.
I'm telling you that we are not imputed with sin....we are only responsible for our own sins...not anybody else's,
including Adam.

We suffer the the EFFECTS of Adam's sin....
our physical and spiritual death and our sinning is due to the effect of Adam's sin...
not because we are guilty of it. I gave you scripture.

Do you understand that we are not imputed with Adam's sin?
If you think we are,,,please provide a verse that says so...
not one that states we have experienced death because of him....

wondering,

Rom 5:12 (NIV) clarifies this issue: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned."

Adam's sin meant death for "all people" and not for each person. Adam's sin led to all people experiencing death as all of them sinned. So, Adam's sin was imputed to all people.

Rom 5:12-21 (NIV) demonstrates how one person (Adam) acted on behalf of others. Adam is a representative of those under the tyranny of death and sin. However, Christ represents those who are set free to serve God in righteousness.

Imputation is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ) [Easton's Bible Dictionary]​

I'm convinced the Bible teaches the imputation of Adam's sin to all human beings and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all believers.

Oz

 

[brightfame52]

That contradicts Acts 17:24-28 (NIV):

24 ‘The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 “For in him we live and move and have our being.” As some of your own poets have said, “We are his offspring.”​

​

Oz

Its a contradiction in your mind ! Its not one in scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm sorry to say this brightfame...
but the problem is that you don't seem to read the whole bible and don't have
a correct interpretation of the ENTIRE bible, but perhaps take it piece by piece.

If you want to know the problem...please read again
post 490, 492, 495

In post 490 you're IMPUTING to children the sin of Adam.
I'm telling you that we are not imputed with sin....we are only responsible for our own sins...not anybody else's,
including Adam.

We suffer the the EFFECTS of Adam's sin....
our physical and spiritual death and our sinning is due to the effect of Adam's sin...
not because we are guilty of it. I gave you scripture.

Do you understand that we are not imputed with Adam's sin?
If you think we are,,,please provide a verse that says so...
not one that states we have experienced death because of him....

All in Adam sinned in him, he was their federal head. So babies in Adam sinned in Adam, hence when He sinned, all sinned Rom 5:12

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Isn't the free gift of God eternal life (Rom 6:23)? That is, God saves and at that time we are born again, our eyes are opened, and we are justified by grace through faith?

Eph 2:8-9 confirm God gives us faith.

I agree with your point that beginning to seek after God as the final step is the wrong way around. It is the first step.

Oz

You yourself have written in an article that the free gift in Ephesians 2:8-9 is salvation...it is the total packages: Not just grace and not just faith,,,but salvation itself.

So, yes, the free gift of God is eternal life. It's free because we cannot purchase it as some tried to do in Acts....and it cannot be gained by works but only by faith.

However, don't miss what I stated in my part of the post in no. 526.
The other member, listed the order of salvation the opposite of what it really is.
He said that we are given faith FIRST and THEN our eyes are open.

Aren't our eyes open to God first....We reply to Him
Then through faith, we become saved and justified.

This could maybe be debated,,,however, the ordo salutis of the reformed faith cannot be debated....they believe a person must be regenerated first and then they become born again. This is the opposite of what every other denomination believes.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mmh, here is KJV: 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me...
if I read it like this and how the words in the chapter sound, I can imagine Jesus meaning, the fact that He makes it possible that all men CAN (theoretically) come to Him. I don't think this means, that He actively seeks to draw all men to Him. ?

Hi Lilac.
The above is not meant for me....
but it's something that interests me.

Jesus will draw all men to Himself.
All men means all men.
In fact, as you've stated, He draws all men to Himself and they have the POSSIBILITY to come to Him and be saved.

He is INDEED actively seeking to draw all men to Himself.
Of course, what you mean by ACTIVELY may be misunderstood by me.
What would ACTIVELY mean?

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

Jesus will draw all men to Himself.
All men means all men.

It means all the Fahter has given Him Jn 6:37,39

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Your statement I believe is inaccurate !

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Rom 5:12 (NIV) clarifies this issue: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned."

Adam's sin meant death for "all people" and not for each person. Adam's sin led to all people experiencing death as all of them sinned. So, Adam's sin was imputed to all people.

Rom 5:12-21 (NIV) demonstrates how one person (Adam) acted on behalf of others. Adam is a representative of those under the tyranny of death and sin. However, Christ represents those who are set free to serve God in righteousness.

Imputation is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ) [Easton's Bible Dictionary]​

I'm convinced the Bible teaches the imputation of Adam's sin to all human beings and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all believers.

Oz

Oz....
We are only responsible for our own sins.
We are not imputed with Adam's sin since we did not commit the first sin.
We suffer the consequences of his sin....
our physical death
our spiritual death
loss of our infused knowledge
loss of our integrity --- and thus we now deal with the sin nature with which we are born.

If you think we're IMPUTED with Adam's sin...
could you show how scripturally?

Galatians 6:5​

5For each will have to bear his own load.​

2 Corinthians 5:10​

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.



John 5:28-29

28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.