Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[Lilac]

Hi Lilac.
The above is not meant for me....
but it's something that interests me.

Jesus will draw all men to Himself.
All men means all men.
In fact, as you've stated, He draws all men to Himself and they have the POSSIBILITY to come to Him and be saved.

He is INDEED actively seeking to draw all men to Himself.
Of course, what you mean by ACTIVELY may be misunderstood by me.
What would ACTIVELY mean?

about John 12, 32
references to: John 3, 14 and 15 and Romans 5, 18
Jesus says: ... " and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wildernis, even so the Son of man must be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life..." (John 3, 14-15)

Now I find this is getting increasingly interesting?
To me, this 'picking' or 'lifting up' is an act, I think meant to the one presented.

Romans 5 ,18:
"... even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life..."
Now, if I give a present to someone, do I not wrap it? And then give it to someone? Is it not fun to hide it a little, for the other, as a surprise? And, would you not let the person whom you give the gift, unwrap it themselves?

Also, the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He would not impose Himself to a person. (Proverbs 8)

Jesus Himself is in heaven. In my actual bible (NKJV, Thomas Nelson) the text says: ..."And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself..."

Because He is in heaven, He ultimately can draw all peoples to Himself, to 'automatically' make it possible for all men to look up to Him. But us here (avoiding the word 'we' ) on earth have to actively look up to Him, to seek Him, where He will be found.
So therefore I think, the action is up to us, because when He died for us on the cross, He said: 'it is finished'? And when I am saved, then I should pray and testify to my yet non-believing family and friends, again, my action needed.
Just a thought.

 

[Lilac]

Wondering,
I mean, with actively drawing, I see a fisher in front of me with a fishing rod, actively drawing this rod out trying to catch fish... But I thought, Christians should do that? At least, I thought that He told us to?

 

[GodsGrace]

All in Adam sinned in him, he was their federal head. So babies in Adam sinned in Adam, hence when He sinned, all sinned Rom 5:12

So babies sin.

So what sin did a one year old commit?

Or was he lost and damned from before time? Or the beginning of time?

So then a person is saved at birth.
So then why would any saved person have to experience regeneration?
Why would a time come when they become born again?
Weren't they saved from the beginning of time?

Since you believe that a baby could go to hell because he sinned ?

 

[GodsGrace]

about John 12, 32
references to: John 3, 14 and 15 and Romans 5, 18
Jesus says: ... " and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wildernis, even so the Son of man must be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life..." (John 3, 14-15)

Right...Jesus being lifted up in
John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Is referring to what Moses did in the desert:
Numbers 21:8
8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”

When anyone looked at the serpent would live...
and anyone believing in Jesus will live.

Now I find this is getting increasingly interesting?
To me, this 'picking' or 'lifting up' is an act, I think meant to the one presented.

Who would be the one presented?
Jesus presents Himself to all mankind...
He died for the whole world.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Romans 5 ,18:
"... even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life..."
Now, if I give a present to someone, do I not wrap it? And then give it to someone? Is it not fun to hide it a little, for the other, as a surprise? And, would you not let the person whom you give the gift, unwrap it themselves?

I don't know how the hiding of the gift relates to this topic.
God offers His free gift to everyone....
But not everyone accepts it.
Accepting the gift is pivotal .... I guess the unwrapping could be learning the word of God?

Also, the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He would not impose Himself to a person. (Proverbs 8)

Amen to that.
God offers the gift...
He does not force us to accept it.
The "believing" part is on us. (John 3:16)

Jesus Himself is in heaven. In my actual bible (NKJV, Thomas Nelson) the text says: ..."And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself..."

Because He is in heaven, He ultimately can draw all peoples to Himself, to 'automatically' make it possible for all men to look up to Him. But us here (avoiding the word 'we' ) on earth have to actively look up to Him, to seek Him, where He will be found.
So therefore I think, the action is up to us, because when He died for us on the cross, He said: 'it is finished'? And when I am saved, then I should pray and testify to my yet non-believing family and friends, again, my action needed.
Just a thought.

Yes, agreed on all....
Just want to say that God always makes the first move in revealing Himself to mankind...
THIS we can say is the "drawing" part.
Our part is to say yes.
And if we seek God, He will be found...as you've stated.
I know a priest that says that if we are seeking God...we've already found Him.
I think this is true.

 

[brightfame52]

So babies sin.

So what sin did a one year old commit?

Or was he lost and damned from before time? Or the beginning of time?

So then a person is saved at birth.
So then why would any saved person have to experience regeneration?
Why would a time come when they become born again?
Weren't they saved from the beginning of time?

Since you believe that a baby could go to hell because he sinned ?

Already answered !

 

[GodsGrace]

Already answered !

No brightfame.
This was not already answered.
Because you CAN'T answer it...

Try again.

Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

The above states that through one man, Adam, sin entered into the world...it did not exist before Adam sinned by disobeying God.

Due to Adam's sin...death spread to all men.
What death?
Physical death
Spiritual death

Spiritual death spread to all men because they all sinned.
They all sinned because of the effects of Adam's sin.
He lost INTEGRITY for all mankind...and thus all men sin.

What is integrity as is understood in Genesis 3?
What else was lost due to Adam's sin?

If you believe we are imputed with Adam's sin...please show scripture to validate that belief.
Thanks.

 

[OzSpen]

wondering


It means all the Fahter has given Him Jn 6:37,39

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Your statement I believe is inaccurate !

BF,

You can't take these verses in isolation from the rest of Scripture, especially in John's Gospel. It is true that all who are given to Jesus by the Father will come to Him. He will not lose any of them.

The big issue is: On what basis are people given to Jesus and they come to Him? John 12:32 (NIV) states: " And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." So, ALL are drawn to Jesus but ALL are not saved because they reject Jesus' drawing power.

Oz

 

[Fastfredy0]

So, ALL are drawn to Jesus but ALL are not saved because they reject Jesus' drawing power.

In Scripture the word “all” (as applied to humankind) is used in two senses—absolutely and relatively. In some passages it means all without exception; in others it signifies all without distinction (John Owens uses the word distributively). As to which of these meanings it bears in any particular passage, must be determined by the context and decided by a comparison of parallel Scriptures. That the word “all” is used in a relative and restricted sense, and in such case means all without distinction and not all without exception, is clear from a number of Scriptures, from which two or three samples follow: “And there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins” (Mark 1:5). Does this mean that every man, woman and child from “all the land of Judea and they of Jerusalem” were baptized of John in Jordan? Surely not.
Luke 3:21 distinctly says, “ Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized,” Then what does “all the people were baptized” mean? It does not mean all without exception, but all without distinction, that is, all classes and conditions of men. Again we read, “And early in the morning He came again into the Temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them” (John 8:2); are we to understand this expression absolutely or relatively? Does “all the people” mean all without exception or all without distinction, that is, all classes and conditions of people? Manifestly the latter; for the Temple was not able to accommodate everybody that was in Jerusalem at this time, namely, the Feast of Tabernacles.

Other Examples

• John 14:26 But the Helper (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor—Counselor, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will help you remember everything that I have told you. The Spirit has infinite knowledge so the transference of “ALL” without exception is not possible.
• Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men If ALL men are justified then we have universalism

John 12:32 cannot mean ALL without exception as faith cometh by hearing and many have not heard the gospel and therefore CANNOT be DRAWN in a salvific sense.

 

[brightfame52]

No brightfame.
This was not already answered.
Because you CAN'T answer it...

Try again.

Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

The above states that through one man, Adam, sin entered into the world...it did not exist before Adam sinned by disobeying God.

Due to Adam's sin...death spread to all men.
What death?
Physical death
Spiritual death

Spiritual death spread to all men because they all sinned.
They all sinned because of the effects of Adam's sin.
He lost INTEGRITY for all mankind...and thus all men sin.

What is integrity as is understood in Genesis 3?
What else was lost due to Adam's sin?

If you believe we are imputed with Adam's sin...please show scripture to validate that belief.
Thanks.

You just don't accept my answer. All for whom Adam represented, His seed in him, when he sinned, they sinned in him, that is God's reckoning. All sinned in Adam before they were born. Rom 5:12

 

[brightfame52]

BF,

You can't take these verses in isolation from the rest of Scripture, especially in John's Gospel. It is true that all who are given to Jesus by the Father will come to Him. He will not lose any of them.

The big issue is: On what basis are people given to Jesus and they come to Him? John 12:32 (NIV) states: " And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." So, ALL are drawn to Jesus but ALL are not saved because they reject Jesus' drawing power.

Oz

All that the Father gave Christ shall come to Christ, that is the all that Christ draws to Him.

The all Jesus draws don't reject Christ, they come to Him, they Willingly come to Him.

 

[PeterJens]

I'm sorry to say this brightfame...
but the problem is that you don't seem to read the whole bible and don't have
a correct interpretation of the ENTIRE bible, but perhaps take it piece by piece.

If you want to know the problem...please read again
post 490, 492, 495

In post 490 you're IMPUTING to children the sin of Adam.
I'm telling you that we are not imputed with sin....we are only responsible for our own sins...not anybody else's,
including Adam.

We suffer the the EFFECTS of Adam's sin....
our physical and spiritual death and our sinning is due to the effect of Adam's sin...
not because we are guilty of it. I gave you scripture.

Do you understand that we are not imputed with Adam's sin?
If you think we are,,,please provide a verse that says so...
not one that states we have experienced death because of him....

When I first started going to church for myself at age 16, it was the group I relied upon to understand the wider meaning of christianity.

It became obvious to me what the group said they believed I accepted out of loyalty rather than understanding.
The bible is vast and very complicated so it is easier to hang ones faith on key verses, and not have things joined together.

I therefore have a lot of sympathy for those who use these few verses to construct a model of what faith is. It is a way of creating security and foundations, which is no bad thing. What changed me was this simple idea.

If Jesus is the truth, then expanding and considering other perspectives is no threat but rather the means to gain a better insight into Jesus. But this risks me losing my faith and my foundations, which though is true, it is also proof that I actually believe. If my faith is real, I will challenge it and help it grow, or else it is just a comfort blanket, which is of value for a short time, will in the end fall away like something that has died.

I have met many like this, who have come to a fork in the road, and could not cope with the cost so withdrew and lived a life away from faith and the church. I like pilgrims progress because truth is defined by our response to it and our walk. Realisation of a solution is not putting it into affect, and the bigger the fool is the man who sees the answer and then chooses to walk away, because they had the chance and then gave it up like it was nothing.

God bless you

 

[Lilac]

and the bigger the fool is the man who sees the answer and then chooses to walk away, because they had the chance and then gave it up like it was nothing.

somehow this to me would imply, that it is the fault of the person him/ herself to choose not to take on salvation?
What about if the person is full of guilt, shame, lack of self-worth? Say you were praying for someone to come to church with you. One day, the person comes to church with you. But still, does not 'see' nor repent, accept Jesus. Do you then stop praying for them? Are they lost forever? Surely they will get another chance? What about back-sliders? Thinking about all my friends who know a lot about Jesus yet still struggle to accept Him fully, (just yet, I would like to add). Wish I could make them believe...

 

[Lilac]

Is a 'solution' not much more complex? Like, try to dissolve oil in water. Almost impossible. But if you change the chemical compound of the water, it would make it possible. Or, try to melt honey in cold milk. But heat up the milk, and it gets much easier. Sometimes a solution might hit a person, who is not ready for it?

 

[GodsGrace]

You just don't accept my answer. All for whom Adam represented, His seed in him, when he sinned, they sinned in him, that is God's reckoning. All sinned in Adam before they were born. Rom 5:12

You have a few persons here telling you the same thing....
that you cling to a verse without considering the total or complete message of the bible.

What do you think the complete message of the bible is?

I believe it is this:
GOD CREATED US.
WE SINNED AND WERE SEPARATED FROM HIM.
GOD LOVES HIS CREATION AND MADE A PLAN TO SAVE THEM.
THE BIBLE TEACHES US THAT PLAN.
GOD REVEALS HIMSELF TO MANKIND.
THOSE THAT WISH TO ANSWER TO HIM IN LOVE AND OBEDIENCE.
JESUS SAVES THOSE THAT WILLINGLY BELIEVE IN HIM.
ONE DAY THOSE THAT CHOSE GOD OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL CHOICE WILL BE WITH GOD AGAIN.

 

[GodsGrace]

somehow this to me would imply, that it is the fault of the person him/ herself to choose not to take on salvation?
What about if the person is full of guilt, shame, lack of self-worth? Say you were praying for someone to come to church with you. One day, the person comes to church with you. But still, does not 'see' nor repent, accept Jesus. Do you then stop praying for them? Are they lost forever? Surely they will get another chance? What about back-sliders? Thinking about all my friends who know a lot about Jesus yet still struggle to accept Him fully, (just yet, I would like to add). Wish I could make them believe...

Lilac,
I wish I could make your friends believe too.
I wish I could make my husband believe...
But Jesus did say the road would be wide and many would follow it.
But the gate is narrow and few will be they that find it.

Sorrowfully, I'd have to say that we must trust what Jesus said.
Not everyone will be saved....and this of their own free choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

When I first started going to church for myself at age 16, it was the group I relied upon to understand the wider meaning of christianity.

It became obvious to me what the group said they believed I accepted out of loyalty rather than understanding.
The bible is vast and very complicated so it is easier to hang ones faith on key verses, and not have things joined together.

I therefore have a lot of sympathy for those who use these few verses to construct a model of what faith is. It is a way of creating security and foundations, which is no bad thing. What changed me was this simple idea.

If Jesus is the truth, then expanding and considering other perspectives is no threat but rather the means to gain a better insight into Jesus. But this risks me losing my faith and my foundations, which though is true, it is also proof that I actually believe. If my faith is real, I will challenge it and help it grow, or else it is just a comfort blanket, which is of value for a short time, will in the end fall away like something that has died.

I have met many like this, who have come to a fork in the road, and could not cope with the cost so withdrew and lived a life away from faith and the church. I like pilgrims progress because truth is defined by our response to it and our walk. Realisation of a solution is not putting it into affect, and the bigger the fool is the man who sees the answer and then chooses to walk away, because they had the chance and then gave it up like it was nothing.

God bless you

Hi Peter,

The above is all true.
Maybe we get indoctrinated into a way of believing and are threatened to hear anything else.

I love what you said here:
If Jesus is the truth, then expanding and considering other perspectives is no threat but rather the means to gain a better insight into Jesus. But this risks me losing my faith and my foundations, which though is true, it is also proof that I actually believe. If my faith is real, I will challenge it and help it grow, or else it is just a comfort blanket, which is of value for a short time, will in the end fall away like something that has died.

I have met many like this, who have come to a fork in the road, and could not cope with the cost so withdrew and lived a life away from faith and the church. I like pilgrims progress because truth is defined by our response to it and our walk. Realisation of a solution is not putting it into affect, and the bigger the fool is the man who sees the answer and then chooses to walk away, because they had the chance and then gave it up like it was nothing.

I see that Lilac has also responded to you. I have an acquaintance here that goes to a church whose denomination believes that a person could be saved after death. It's difficult to understand how these ideas are created....but I do think that it doesn't allow for the bible to come together as a complete thought...a complete teaching of what Jesus was all about.

Other than that, I pray that we don't get into heaven based on our doctrinal beliefs but based on our faith in God's saving grace toward
us.

 

[brightfame52]

You have a few persons here telling you the same thing....
that you cling to a verse without considering the total or complete message of the bible.

What do you think the complete message of the bible is?

I believe it is this:
GOD CREATED US.
WE SINNED AND WERE SEPARATED FROM HIM.
GOD LOVES HIS CREATION AND MADE A PLAN TO SAVE THEM.
THE BIBLE TEACHES US THAT PLAN.
GOD REVEALS HIMSELF TO MANKIND.
THOSE THAT WISH TO ANSWER TO HIM IN LOVE AND OBEDIENCE.
JESUS SAVES THOSE THAT WILLINGLY BELIEVE IN HIM.
ONE DAY THOSE THAT CHOSE GOD OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL CHOICE WILL BE WITH GOD AGAIN.

When Adam sinned, all men in him sinned Rom 5:12' So babies in Adam sinned when Adam sinned. Now they wont be guilty of numerous sins as will those who live longer lives and multiply their own actual sins. But Adams sin was the inlet sin for all whom he represented, and they sinned when he sinned.

 

[GodsGrace]

When Adam sinned, all men in him sinned Rom 5:12' So babies in Adam sinned when Adam sinned. Now they wont be guilty of numerous sins as will those who live longer lives and multiply their own actual sins. But Adams sin was the inlet sin for all whom he represented, and they sinned when he sinned.

This is the complete and total message of the bible?

After Adam sinned,,,did God make some kind of plan so that mankind could be saved?

What does man have to do to be saved?

 

[OzSpen]

All that the Father gave Christ shall come to Christ, that is the all that Christ draws to Him.

The all Jesus draws don't reject Christ, they come to Him, they Willingly come to Him.

So you believe in unconditional election?

The Bible bases election on God's foreknowledge (Rom 8:28-30; 1 Pet 1:1-2). We need to differentiate between God’s foreknowledge and His randomly determining all things and the distinction between God’s efficient and permissive decrees.

God foresaw sin’s entering the world but he did not decree it. God knows how people will respond to the Gospel invitation but he does not deliberately determine that response.

Regarding election we must have regard to God’s justice. Let’s admit it. God is not under any obligation to save anyone even though Jesus has provided salvation that is sufficient for all.

God would not be partial if he did nothing to provide salvation for all. But how can He be other than playing favourites if he selects some from the multitude of people throughout history and does nothing for the remainder who are doomed.

However, that is not how the Bible sees it. The common grace of God has been extended to all people so that everyone has the ability restored to be “willing to do His will” (John 7:17). God’s grace has appeared to all people (Titus 2:11) bringing or offering them salvation. Sadly for many this grace is futile.

Understanding this biblical view of election has the logical and practical ramifications, leading to great missionary and evangelistic actions. If God arbitrarily chooses some and damns the rest, why should the Christian be bothered with preaching or witnessing? When we know salvation is available to everyone, it stimulates resounding evangelistic and missionary activity.

Oz

 

[Fastfredy0]

God foresaw sin’s entering the world but he did not decree it. God knows how people will respond to the Gospel invitation but he does not deliberately determine that response.

I would say God decrees everything and that is how He knows how people will respond. There is no other way to know what we call the future unless something predestines (predetermines) it. Even God cannot know what nothing will do because nothing is no thing and God cannot determine something (the future) from 'no thing' as
'no thing' determining 'some thing' is a contradiction. In eternity, there was no time and the only 'something' was God. Since His knowledge does not change and He knows what we call 'the future', only that something (God) could determine everything.
If humans determine their future then God is NOT an independent God for he depends on us to determine what He will do. To some extent, if God is dependent upon man, then God becomes our puppet that must respond according to rules He prescribes; yet, a Sovereign is not under the law.

Regarding election we must have regard to God’s justice. Let’s admit it. God is not under any obligation to save anyone even though Jesus has provided salvation that is sufficient for all.

Agreed

God would not be partial if he did nothing to provide salvation for all. But how can He be other than playing favourites if he selects some from the multitude of people throughout history and does nothing for the remainder who are doomed.

You define "God's partiality" from a human perspective IMO. From a human perspective, God is partial as He favored Israel from Jacob to Christ's death. (Ephesians 2:12; Matthew 10:5; Matthew 15:24)
Partiality from God's perspective is: God is independent of His creation and therefore they have no effect upon Him. The constitution of anything or creature is dependent upon Him as He is the “first cause” of all things without exception. (Acts 17:28; Col. 1:17, Heb. 1:3)

However, that is not how the Bible sees it. The common grace of God has been extended to all people so that everyone has the ability restored to be “willing to do His will” (John 7:17). God’s grace has appeared to all people (Titus 2:11) bringing or offering them salvation. Sadly for many this grace is futile.

This statement implicitly relies on the premise that ALL (everyone without exception) people can be saved. Since those who have not heard the gospel cannot be saved your conclusion is faulty. (Reason: an adult must be saved by faith and faith relies on content from hearing the gospel; such content being unknown to said people and thus faith is impossible and they are therefore lost.) (Ephesians 2:12; John 14:6)
Titus 2:11 ... says that God's grace has been manifested through Christ's work on the cross, but it does not say that God has thereby supplied the ability to believe to all people.

If God arbitrarily chooses some and damns the rest, why should the Christian be bothered with preaching or witnessing?

1. Because God asks you to preach/teach
2. We do not know whom God will save so one preaches/teaches hoping God will use us as a secondary cause in his work.

__________________________________
It is obvious that since God knows who will be saved, then how could you claim that He is attempting to save everyone as that is a contradiction.

Premise 1: God foresaw which sinners would be lost
Premise 2: it is not within God's will to allow these sinners to be lost
Premise 3: God loves everyone without exception and the definition of LOVE (agape) is "a volition to favor".
Conclusion: God could have just as easily refrained from creating those that He knew would go to Hell; had them die as infants and thus saved those He loves as opposed to having move of those he favors (loves) spend eternity in hell.

Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology
If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true, then it is absolutely certain that person #1 will believe and person #2 will not. There is no way their lives could turn out differently than this. Therefore the Arminian position paints itself into a corner by being forced to conclude that their destinies are determined, for they could not be otherwise. But now the question is, by what are their destinies determined? If God Himself determines them then we no longer have election based on foreseen faith, but rather on God's sovereign will (Calvinism). But if God does not determine their destinies then who or what determines them? Of course no Christian would say that there is some powerful being other than God controlling people's destinies. That is a scary possibility! In rejecting "divine determinism," the Arminian by default must embrace an impersonal determinism coming from some mysterious other source. And to be sure, this idea certainly does not leave much room for their much-boasted free will. The only possible alternative is to say their destinies are determined by some impersonal force, some kind of fate operative in the universe, making things turn out as they do. But of what benefit is this? We have then sacrificed election in love by a personal and compassionate God for a kind of determinism by an impersonal force and God is no longer to be given the ultimate credit for our salvation.