Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[brightfame52]

This is the complete and total message of the bible?

After Adam sinned,,,did God make some kind of plan so that mankind could be saved?

What does man have to do to be saved?

Do you understand that when Adam sinned all whom he represented in him sinned Rom 5:12?

 

[OzSpen]

I would say God decrees everything and that is how He knows how people will respond. There is no other way to know what we call the future unless something predestines (predetermines) it.

I find that to be a dangerous and irrational position. If God decrees everything, then he decrees rape, slaughter of unborn infants, Hitler's Holocaust, and the ISIS terrorism that saw the martyrdom of many Christians in Mosul, Iraq.

Did God decree the Covid-19 worldwide disease?

That is not the God I worship.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Partiality from God's perspective is: God is independent of His creation and therefore they have no effect upon Him. The constitution of anything or creature is dependent upon Him as He is the “first cause” of all things without exception. (Acts 17:28; Col. 1:17, Heb. 1:3)

Deuteronomy 9:7-8 (NIV) disagrees: "7 Remember this and never forget how you [Israelites] aroused the anger of the Lord your God in the wilderness. From the day you left Egypt until you arrived here, you have been rebellious against the Lord. 8 At Horeb you aroused the Lord’s wrath so that he was angry enough to destroy you. "

Oz

 

[Lilac]

Lilac,
I wish I could make your friends believe too.
I wish I could make my husband believe...
But Jesus did say the road would be wide and many would follow it.
But the gate is narrow and few will be they that find it.
Sorrowfully, I'd have to say that we must trust what Jesus said.
Not everyone will be saved....and this of their own free choice.

but we can keep praying for them wondering, can't we.
(as long as they are alive)

 

[OzSpen]

This statement implicitly relies on the premise that ALL (everyone without exception) people can be saved. Since those who have not heard the gospel cannot be saved your conclusion is faulty. (Reason: an adult must be saved by faith and faith relies on content from hearing the gospel; such content being unknown to said people and thus faith is impossible and they are therefore lost.) (Ephesians 2:12; John 14:6)
Titus 2:11 ... says that God's grace has been manifested through Christ's work on the cross, but it does not say that God has thereby supplied the ability to believe to all people.

There are too many exegetical details to uncover in Titus 2:11 for this one post. I've pursued that work in: How to interpret ‘appeared’ in Titus 2:11.

God's grace is extended to all people so that when they hear the Gospel it is possible to be saved. It also covers the salvific benefits for infants and young children - of all nations.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

When Adam sinned, all men in him sinned Rom 5:12' So babies in Adam sinned when Adam sinned. Now they wont be guilty of numerous sins as will those who live longer lives and multiply their own actual sins. But Adams sin was the inlet sin for all whom he represented, and they sinned when he sinned.

I agree with you that Adam was "the inlet" for all whom he represented...all of humanity.
He let sin into the world.
We agree on that.

But to show that your point is correct that all men sinned when Adam sinned,,,you would have to support the two following
ideas:

1. Please show where in scripture it states that we are RESPONSIBLE for other men's sins.

2. Please show where in Romans 5:12 it states that we each sinned when Adam did.
I've already exegeted Romans 5:12 for you...could you do the same?

Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

In the very next verse it says that sin was NOT IMPUTED until the Law...
This is what I, and others, have been stating to you.....
Adam's sin is NOT IMPUTED to us...
we are not RESPONSIBLE for HIS sin...only for ours.
Death comes to us because we sin individually.

13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would say God decrees everything and that is how He knows how people will respond. There is no other way to know what we call the future unless something predestines (predetermines) it. Even God cannot know what nothing will do because nothing is no thing and God cannot determine something (the future) from 'no thing' as
'no thing' determining 'some thing' is a contradiction. In eternity, there was no time and the only 'something' was God. Since His knowledge does not change and He knows what we call 'the future', only that something (God) could determine everything.
If humans determine their future then God is NOT an independent God for he depends on us to determine what He will do. To some extent, if God is dependent upon man, then God becomes our puppet that must respond according to rules He prescribes; yet, a Sovereign is not under the law.


Agreed



You define "God's partiality" from a human perspective IMO. From a human perspective, God is partial as He favored Israel from Jacob to Christ's death. (Ephesians 2:12; Matthew 10:5; Matthew 15:24)
Partiality from God's perspective is: God is independent of His creation and therefore they have no effect upon Him. The constitution of anything or creature is dependent upon Him as He is the “first cause” of all things without exception. (Acts 17:28; Col. 1:17, Heb. 1:3)



This statement implicitly relies on the premise that ALL (everyone without exception) people can be saved. Since those who have not heard the gospel cannot be saved your conclusion is faulty. (Reason: an adult must be saved by faith and faith relies on content from hearing the gospel; such content being unknown to said people and thus faith is impossible and they are therefore lost.) (Ephesians 2:12; John 14:6)
Titus 2:11 ... says that God's grace has been manifested through Christ's work on the cross, but it does not say that God has thereby supplied the ability to believe to all people.



1. Because God asks you to preach/teach
2. We do not know whom God will save so one preaches/teaches hoping God will use us as a secondary cause in his work.

__________________________________
It is obvious that since God knows who will be saved, then how could you claim that He is attempting to save everyone as that is a contradiction.

Premise 1: God foresaw which sinners would be lost
Premise 2: it is not within God's will to allow these sinners to be lost
Premise 3: God loves everyone without exception and the definition of LOVE (agape) is "a volition to favor".
Conclusion: God could have just as easily refrained from creating those that He knew would go to Hell; had them die as infants and thus saved those He loves as opposed to having move of those he favors (loves) spend eternity in hell.

Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology
If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true, then it is absolutely certain that person #1 will believe and person #2 will not. There is no way their lives could turn out differently than this. Therefore the Arminian position paints itself into a corner by being forced to conclude that their destinies are determined, for they could not be otherwise. But now the question is, by what are their destinies determined? If God Himself determines them then we no longer have election based on foreseen faith, but rather on God's sovereign will (Calvinism). But if God does not determine their destinies then who or what determines them? Of course no Christian would say that there is some powerful being other than God controlling people's destinies. That is a scary possibility! In rejecting "divine determinism," the Arminian by default must embrace an impersonal determinism coming from some mysterious other source. And to be sure, this idea certainly does not leave much room for their much-boasted free will. The only possible alternative is to say their destinies are determined by some impersonal force, some kind of fate operative in the universe, making things turn out as they do. But of what benefit is this? We have then sacrificed election in love by a personal and compassionate God for a kind of determinism by an impersonal force and God is no longer to be given the ultimate credit for our salvation.

Just want to say that it is not necessary that God determine something for Him to now what the person will freely choose.

Why do you limit God so?

You like analogies...which I don't really.
But,,,,if I know because I'm omniscient that my child likes vanilla ice-cream....
why would I have to force him to take vanilla ice-cream....??
I only KNOW he will choose that flavor.

This seems like a simple enough concept for something intelligent.
You have an idea of what non-reformers believe that is not correct and that teaches a weak and fumbling God.
God is sovereign and does not have to follow YOUR beliefs --- about Him,,,which are not correct anyway.

Determinism does not come from a mysterios other source...
It comes from free will.

It is your refusal to accept that God is not fearful of giving us free will that deviated from the truth of every other
biblical concept.

You know a fearful God that cannot even give humans free will.
MY knowledge of God tell me He is a sovereign God and is not afraid to give us free will.

Think of it that way please....
Stop reading all those things written by man and start reading what Jesus taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you understand that when Adam sinned all whom he represented in him sinned Rom 5:12?

Do you understand that you should answer posts honestly and stop beating around the bush?

Please answer post no. 558
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

I find that to be a dangerous and irrational position. If God decrees everything, then he decrees rape, slaughter of unborn infants, Hitler's Holocaust, and the ISIS terrorism that saw the martyrdom of many Christians in Mosul, Iraq.

Did God decree the Covid-19 worldwide disease?

That is not the God I worship.

Oz

Oz,,,
the above is correct.

I've noticed that you give likes to me at times, and to @brightfame at times.
This is impossible since we are at polar opposites of what we believe.

We sin because Adam sinned and passed this damage onto us.
We do not bear the responsibility of Adam's sin however.
If we did, babies would be lost at birth.
Please consider what Brighfame is saying in its totality and not just post by post.

 

[OzSpen]

But to show that your point is correct that all men sinned when Adam sinned,,,you would have to support the two following
ideas:

1. Please show where in scripture it states that we are RESPONSIBLE for other men's sins.

2. Please show where in Romans 5:12 it states that we each sinned when Adam did.
I've already exegeted Romans 5:12 for you...could you do the same?

wondering,

Rom 5:12 (NIV): "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned --" The NLT gives a clarifying translation, "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned."

There is a sequence in this verse:

1. First sin by Adam.
2. Then death.
3. Who are the people who die? All human beings from the time of Adam.
4. How can people die when there is no law to break? This death originated because of Adam's sin.
5. Thus, Adam's sin was imputed to all human beings. The word "imputed" does not have to be used when the doctrine is taught. We know this from the doctrine of the Trinity which is taught in Scripture but the word itself is not used.
6. Verse 13 tells us, "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law." So there could be no individual sin until a law was given to be broken.
7. However, people died before the Law was given.
8. Where did this sin that brought death come from?
9. There is an answer.The sin in question was not the guilt that came from breaking a law. It came through the single sin/transgression of Adam.
10. The single act of that one man, Adam, brought sin and death to all people.
11. This imputation of sin to all people came from one man, Adam, and has this counterpart. The single act of Jesus, the Redeemer, imputed to all believers forgiveness of sins.

Oz

Oz,,,
the above is correct.

I've noticed that you give likes to me at times, and to @brightfame at times.
This is impossible since we are at polar opposites of what we believe.

We sin because Adam sinned and passed this damage onto us.
We do not bear the responsibility of Adam's sin however.
If we did, babies would be lost at birth.
Please consider what Brighfame is saying in its totality and not just post by post.

wondering,

That is not my approach to the use of "like." If I like an individual post I'll give the person credit, based on its merits.

For example, in my own theology I would "like" 85-90% of posts of Calvinists. Therefore, I will give credit to such posts. My major objections come with their doctrine of soteriology and the nature of God's decrees.

Oz

 

[brightfame52]

I agree with you that Adam was "the inlet" for all whom he represented...all of humanity.
He let sin into the world.
We agree on that.

But to show that your point is correct that all men sinned when Adam sinned,,,you would have to support the two following
ideas:

1. Please show where in scripture it states that we are RESPONSIBLE for other men's sins.

2. Please show where in Romans 5:12 it states that we each sinned when Adam did.
I've already exegeted Romans 5:12 for you...could you do the same?

Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

In the very next verse it says that sin was NOT IMPUTED until the Law...
This is what I, and others, have been stating to you.....
Adam's sin is NOT IMPUTED to us...
we are not RESPONSIBLE for HIS sin...only for ours.
Death comes to us because we sin individually.

13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When Adam sinned, they who were in him sinned. Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
All have sinned is in the 2nd aorist which usually means the past tense All men in Adam sinned in Adam in the past

 

[brightfame52]

Do you understand that you should answer posts honestly and stop beating around the bush?

Please answer post no. 558
Thanks.

I gave you my answer ! You may not like it. All men in Adam sinned when Adam sinned, its plain as the noon day sun

 

[Fastfredy0]

I find that to be a dangerous and irrational position.

Well, I find your position "that God does not predetermine ALL things" to be dangerous and irrational ... and I will give evidence for my statement.

God's Wisdom

• It is part of wisdom to proceed in every undertaking according to a plan. The greater the undertaking, the more needful a plan. Wisdom, moreover, shows itself in a careful provision for all possible circumstances and emergencies that can arise in the execution of its plan. It belongs to infinite wisdom, therefore, not only to have a plan, but to embrace all, even the minutest details, in the plan of the universe. Given that God has a plan (Acts 15:18; Psalm 33:11), which is all-inclusive (Ephesians 1:11) and because of God’s nature the plan must be the “best plan” … how is it possible to have the “best plan” when it is dependent upon the will of men who by nature are sinful. Why would an all knowing, perfect, rational God leave any part of His plan to evil, irrational beings as you portend?
• How can the supposed “free will” of man with all it ancillary consequences be of superior wisdom to the decisions of God?
• Arminianism denies the sovereignty of God in salvation. If God's will is steadily and surely determined in everything by supreme wisdom, then it is in everything necessarily determined to that which is most wise. And, certainly, it would be a disadvantage and indignity, to be otherwise. For if the Divine Will was not necessarily determined to what in every case is wisest and best, it must be subject to some degree of undesigning contingence; and so in the same degree liable to evil.

If God decrees everything, then he decrees rape, slaughter of unborn infants, Hitler's Holocaust, and the ISIS terrorism that saw the martyrdom of many Christians in Mosul, Iraq.

While it is unpleasant to defend the evil that exists in the world it is a given the God allows evil to exist as He is all powerful and He will one day abolish evil. He could do it today but He doesn't. As God is ALL WISE we can deduce that the evil God allows is for a good purpose. The bible gives examples in which God allows evil, in fact the most evil event of all what planned and allow to come to pass by God:

The most evil deed of all history, the crucifixion of Christ, was ordained by God. Acts 4:27 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur. Yet the apostles attach no moral blame to God, for the actions resulted from the willing choices of sinful men. Acts 2:23 This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men. God brought about his plan through their willing choices, for which they were nevertheless responsible. (Isaiah 53:10 Yet is pleased God to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt)​

​

Did God decree the Covid-19 worldwide disease?

Yes.
Many things have come to pass, not because of his will and action, but because he has left the general laws, under which he has placed the world, to work out their results without action or influence on His part; this idea makes a God that lacks purpose (Deism) and a power that God did not create (Dualism).

That is not the God I worship.

God is incomprehensible, yet knowable. We can't worship accurately what we don't understand. We all lack understanding.

I appreciate your view point.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Partiality from God's perspective is: God is independent of His creation and therefore they have no effect upon Him. The constitution of anything or creature is dependent upon Him as He is the “first cause” of all things without exception. (Acts 17:28; Col. 1:17, Heb. 1:3)

Deuteronomy 9:7-8 (NIV) disagrees: "7 Remember this and never forget how you [Israelites] aroused the anger of the Lord your God in the wilderness. From the day you left Egypt until you arrived here, you have been rebellious against the Lord. 8 At Horeb you aroused the Lord’s wrath so that he was angry enough to destroy you. "

Your response lacks clarity. I assume your example shows that the action of the Israelites CAUSED anger in God and you are saying God is therefore NOT independent of His creatures; rather, God is partial to their actions.

My response: The verse is an Anthropomorphism.
Proof:

1. Wrath/anger is not an emotional response. If God’s infinite hatred against sin included “pain and grief” over each sin, then the countless sins committed by demons and men would cause God to “suffer infinite pain, every day” and make him “the most miserable of all beings”—whereas in truth, God is “perfectly happy,” for he sovereignly uses the evil of sin for his glory. Johathon Edwards
2. The force of this is, it is impossible to bring the Almighty under obligations to the creature; God gains nothing from us which harmonizes with His immutability. Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”
3. We cannot affect God, who is all-blessed in Himself. “When ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants” (Luke 17:10)

 

[GodsGrace]

Oz,,,
the above is correct.

I've noticed that you give likes to me at times, and to @brightfame at times.
This is impossible since we are at polar opposites of what we believe.

We sin because Adam sinned and passed this damage onto us.
We do not bear the responsibility of Adam's sin however.
If we did, babies would be lost at birth.
Please consider what Brighfame is saying in its totality and not just post by post.

OzSpen

Oz,,,how could you give me a like for the above and then disagree with all of it?
There's something wrong with your likes.....

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Rom 5:12 (NIV): "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned --" The NLT gives a clarifying translation, "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned."

There is a sequence in this verse:

1. First sin by Adam.
2. Then death.
3. Who are the people who die? All human beings from the time of Adam.
4. How can people die when there is no law to break? This death originated because of Adam's sin.
5. Thus, Adam's sin was imputed to all human beings. The word "imputed" does not have to be used when the doctrine is taught. We know this from the doctrine of the Trinity which is taught in Scripture but the word itself is not used.
6. Verse 13 tells us, "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law." So there could be no individual sin until a law was given to be broken.
7. However, people died before the Law was given.
8. Where did this sin that brought death come from?
9. There is an answer.The sin in question was not the guilt that came from breaking a law. It came through the single sin/transgression of Adam.
10. The single act of that one man, Adam, brought sin and death to all people.
11. This imputation of sin to all people came from one man, Adam, and has this counterpart. The single act of Jesus, the Redeemer, imputed to all believers forgiveness of sins.

Oz






wondering,

That is not my approach to the use of "like." If I like an individual post I'll give the person credit, based on its merits.

For example, in my own theology I would "like" 85-90% of posts of Calvinists. Therefore, I will give credit to such posts. My major objections come with their doctrine of soteriology and the nature of God's decrees.

Oz

1. You could give a like to whom you will....
What is confusing to me is how you could LIKE a post of mine and then, either to me or to another member, you disagree with all you LIKED! This is all I'm saying.


2. Romans 5:12 does not state that we are responsible for Adam's sin.
It just states that we all have sinned and this is due to the fallen nature with which we're born.

You want to impute Adam's sin to ME.
You want to make ME responsible for Adam's sin.
Please show me scripturally HOW we can possibly be responsible for the sin of another person.
I gave you scripture to support my belief --- which is a mainline denominational belief....
Now please show me verses that state we are RESPONSIBLE for another's sin.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

When Adam sinned, they who were in him sinned. Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
All have sinned is in the 2nd aorist which usually means the past tense All men in Adam sinned in Adam in the past

Where is your supporting scripture besides Romans 5:12 which is your new verse presented ad nauseam but never exegeted.....

Romans 5:12 DOES NOT state what you THINK it states.

Please exegete Romans 5:12

 

[GodsGrace]

I gave you my answer ! You may not like it. All men in Adam sinned when Adam sinned, its plain as the noon day sun

It's not that I don't like it...
It's just plain incorrect.

Why are you not posting additional verse to support your claim?

What does this mean to you?:

Ezekiel 18:20
20“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

and this:

Galatians 6:4-5
4But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.
5For each one will bear his own load.

 

[Lilac]

To some extent, if God is dependent upon man, then God becomes our puppet that must respond according to rules He prescribes; yet, a Sovereign is not under the law.

God is not our puppet, neither are we His. Is a relationship not much more than mere words and set doctrine? And somehow, God IS the Law (at least, it was His idea, see for instance even all the natural laws like gravity), I mean, Jesus says He came to fullfil the law, not to destroy in Matthew 5, 17-20
And were would our prayers go, that can change (some) things?

Since those who have not heard the gospel cannot be saved your conclusion is faulty.

Having difficulty with this one, too. What happens to all the people in the world from the beginning of the counting (of the world, or the possible salvation) who have not heard of 'our' God? What is the percentage of those lived and died without ever hearing 'the' gospel the way it is perfectly delivered to us? Native people living in the jungle, Muslims who encounter Jesus in their dreams, etc.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God is not our puppet, neither are we His.

Well, one must define 'puppet' first to facilitate discussing this further.

What happens to all the people in the world from the beginning of the counting (of the world, or the possible salvation) who have not heard of 'our' God? What is the percentage of those lived and died without ever hearing 'the' gospel the way it is perfectly delivered to us? Native people living in the jungle, Muslims who encounter Jesus in their dreams, etc.

Google search I did estimated 2 billion people have never heard the Christian gospel.
Back in the time of Christ, only Israel was known by God and knew of God. (Eph. 2:12)

https://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html (here's one opinion)