Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[brightfame52]

Where is your supporting scripture besides Romans 5:12 which is your new verse presented ad nauseam but never exegeted.....

Romans 5:12 DOES NOT state what you THINK it states.

Please exegete Romans 5:12

Thats all I need. One scripture is enough to declare a truth, if you refuse it, you refuse scripture, what God has said,

 

[brightfame52]

It's not that I don't like it...
It's just plain incorrect.

Why are you not posting additional verse to support your claim?

What does this mean to you?:

Ezekiel 18:20
20“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

and this:

Galatians 6:4-5
4But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.
5For each one will bear his own load.

No its not incorrect, scripture isnt incorrect. Rom 5:12 !

 

[Fastfredy0]

There are too many exegetical details to uncover in Titus 2:11 for this one post. I've pursued that work in: How to interpret ‘appeared’ in Titus 2:11.

It was too technical for me to get a good handle upon. I am sure James White could exegete it to fit my understanding of God. It did mention and interesting URL:

What's Wrong With Calvinism?

This is a talk I gave recently at City on a Hill Church in Seattle, Washington. (City on a Hill is a mostly Russian evangelical church. It's leaders are

www.patheos.com

Interesting points in the URL ...

Let me repeat. The most basic issue [between Arminianism and Calvinism] is not providence or predestination or the sovereignty of God. The most basic issue is God’s character.

In my opinion, strongly biblical cases can be made for both views. Of course, I happen to think the stronger case is in favor of Arminianism.

How to decide which system is less prone to error:
First, ask yourself which view is most consistent overall with the portrait of God given in Jesus Christ, God’s self-revelation, and in Scripture as a whole?
Second, ask yourself which view is internally consistent?

Interesting stuff ..thx

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, one must define 'puppet' first to facilitate discussing this further.


Google search I did estimated 2 billion people have never heard the Christian gospel.
Back in the time of Christ, only Israel was known by God and knew of God. (Eph. 2:12)

https://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html (here's one opinion)

FF,,,you also don't know what PUPPET means???
I'll get you a dictionary for Christmas.


And as to the 2 billion people...
Well, Lilac is right....but we'll let it go at that.

 

[GodsGrace]

No its not incorrect, scripture isnt incorrect. Rom 5:12 !

Then why don't you please exegete all the verses we're discussing?

Scripture is not incorrect brightfame,,,
You just refuse to read the entire bible.

 

[brightfame52]

Then why don't you please exegete all the verses we're discussing?

Scripture is not incorrect brightfame,,,
You just refuse to read the entire bible.

No i will not, that takes a lot of effort, which isnt needed, especially when its being done for a person that rejects what the plain written word says anyway. Rom 5:12 is exegete enough for you, at least from me.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is not our puppet, neither are we His. Is a relationship not much more than mere words and set doctrine? And somehow, God IS the Law (at least, it was His idea, see for instance even all the natural laws like gravity), I mean, Jesus says He came to fullfil the law, not to destroy in Matthew 5, 17-20
And were would our prayers go, that can change (some) things?

Having difficulty with this one, too. What happens to all the people in the world from the beginning of the counting (of the world, or the possible salvation) who have not heard of 'our' God? What is the percentage of those lived and died without ever hearing 'the' gospel the way it is perfectly delivered to us? Native people living in the jungle, Muslims who encounter Jesus in their dreams, etc.

Lilac,,,,the above was for another member.
You're right on both counts.
As to those that have never heard the gospel...
If you want the answer, just read Romans 1:19-20

Problem is, some on this forum prefer to adhere to the teachings of a PERSON, instead of the teachings of the bible.
That person's name is John Calvin -- who got everything wrong.

Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has always made Himself be known.
Man has always had the opportunity to accept or reject the one, true God.
He is not so small as some on this forum make Him....
He does not fit into a tiny little box.

 

[GodsGrace]

No i will not, that takes a lot of effort, which isnt needed, especially when its being done for a person that rejects what the plain written word says anyway. Rom 5:12 is exegete enough for you, at least from me.

You have not exegeted ANY verses because you don't really understand them.

You must be serving one mean god if he allows YOU to know the truth,
but keeps the truth hidden from me. He must be a god of confusion with no love, mercy or justice...
since He does not give to everyone what they deserve, but chooses to bring only some to heaven with him.

I may be scolded for saying this,,,but Calvinism is a heresy.
I'm not saying every calvinist is not saved....that is not for me to say.
What I'm stating is that calvinism comes from the ideas of Augustine of Hippo.
Augustine of Hippo was a gnostic manichean and he brought these ideas with him when he decided to become
a Catholic back in the 400's. Augustine was a manichean for about 10 years...he did not differentiate from the metaphysical
and the spiritual. This is the man that influenced the man you are following.
Good luck trying to understand the entire bible unless someone of your persuasion explains it, incorrectly, to you.

 

[brightfame52]

You have not exegeted ANY verses because you don't really understand them.

You must be serving one mean god if he allows YOU to know the truth,
but keeps the truth hidden from me. He must be a god of confusion with no love, mercy or justice...
since He does not give to everyone what they deserve, but chooses to bring only some to heaven with him.

I may be scolded for saying this,,,but Calvinism is a heresy.
I'm not saying every calvinist is not saved....that is not for me to say.
What I'm stating is that calvinism comes from the ideas of Augustine of Hippo.
Augustine of Hippo was a gnostic manichean and he brought these ideas with him when he decided to become
a Catholic back in the 400's. Augustine was a manichean for about 10 years...he did not differentiate from the metaphysical
and the spiritual. This is the man that influenced the man you are following.
Good luck trying to understand the entire bible unless someone of your persuasion explains it, incorrectly, to you.

Okay, if I dont understand them, dont ask me to exegete. You shouldn't want me to. I certainly dont want nobody explaining scripture to me who I feel dont understand scripture.

 

[Lilac]

Well, one must define 'puppet' first to facilitate discussing this further.

you used that term first, so
(for instance 1. a usu. small, doll-like figure representing a human being or an animal, moved by hand or by rods, wires, etc. Compare hand puppet, marionette. 2. a person, group, or government whose actions are prompted and controlled by another or others.)
and thank you for that other info

 

[OzSpen]

While it is unpleasant to defend the evil that exists in the world it is a given the God allows evil to exist as He is all powerful and He will one day abolish evil. He could do it today but He doesn't. As God is ALL WISE we can deduce that the evil God allows is for a good purpose. The bible gives examples in which God allows evil, in fact the most evil event of all what planned and allow to come to pass by God:

The most evil deed of all history, the crucifixion of Christ, was ordained by God. Acts 4:27 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur. Yet the apostles attach no moral blame to God, for the actions resulted from the willing choices of sinful men. Acts 2:23 This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men. God brought about his plan through their willing choices, for which they were nevertheless responsible. (Isaiah 53:10 Yet is pleased God to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt)​

​

FF,

You stated: "I would say God decrees everything and that is how He knows how people will respond. There is no other way to know what we call the future unless something predestines (predetermines) it."

Now you've moved the goal posts to, "it is a given the God allows evil to exist." God decrees everything is a country mile from God allowing evil to exist.

The point is: If God allows evil to exist, from where did that evil come?

Oz

 

[Fastfredy0]

you used that term first, so

Re: Puppet ... I use the term analogously to denote one beings control over another being. In other words, one being CAUSES the actions of another being either directly or indirectly
Examples 1: God causes your body to approach the center of the earth via gravity unless another greater force intervenes (here, man is the puppet)
Example 2: a person causes God to adopt him as a son via salvific faith (here, God is the puppet)

Aside: I grant the word 'puppet' is a pejorative.

(for instance 1. a usu. small, doll-like figure representing a human being or an animal, moved by hand or by rods, wires, etc. Compare hand puppet, marionette. 2. a person, group, or government whose actions are prompted and controlled by another or others.)

Using this definition, I agree the neither God or man is a puppet.

 

[Lilac]

Problem is, some on this forum prefer to adhere to the teachings of a PERSON, instead of the teachings of the bible.
That person's name is John Calvin -- who got everything wrong.

Like, can we have a new thread on this? In how much is a bible scholar/ teacher's input important for faith/ understanding the word of God? Why can I not trust the Holy Spirit to also help me understand the word of God? Pray for the pastor, when going to church on Sunday, and trust that God will use him to make me grasp the deeper meanings?

 

[Lilac]

Examples 1: God causes your body to approach the center of the earth via gravity unless another greater force intervenes (here, man is the puppet)
Example 2: a person causes God to adopt him as a son via salvific faith (here, God is the puppet)

Aside: I grant the word 'puppet' is a pejorative.

most of the time reading your comments, I need to grab a dictionary at least once. It's not a bad thing, learning new things
Example 1 meaning, die and go to hell?
Example 2 = yeh, I get this now, the way explained like this.
but: if I pray, prayer can change circumstances (not always). God is not Santa Claus (btw even children usually don't get everything they ask for, or else would be very unhealthy).
I mean, He IS a Father who hears His children, and sometimes, well, hears their heart's prayer?
and don't quite get the analogy with the little person and the gavel?

 

[GodsGrace]

Like, can we have a new thread on this? In how much is a bible scholar/ teacher's input important for faith/ understanding the word of God? Why can I not trust the Holy Spirit to also help me understand the word of God? Pray for the pastor, when going to church on Sunday, and trust that God will use him to make me grasp the deeper meanings?

You got it!
Tomorrow morning ,,,
Or start one in Theology if you prefer.

 

[Lilac]

Or start one in Theology if you prefer.

i'm scared... :D I'll sleep over it see what tomorrow says

 

[Fastfredy0]

Now you've moved the goal posts to,

I don't follow. If I did so, I did not mean to. This method of communication is not ideal. Perhaps the 'goal posts' need to be clarified.

The point is: If God allows evil to exist, from where did that evil come?

Sorry ... I've lost the point you are trying to make. Too many posts and lack of reference to specific point that is trying to be made.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I pray, prayer can change circumstances (not always).

If you pray for something that is God's will, then I agree.
If you pray for something that is contrary to God's will, then I don't agree.

If God caused you to pray "X" and God wanted "X" to happen, then "X" will happen.
If God caused you not to pray "X" and God wanted "X" to happen, then "X" will happen.
If God caused/allowed you to pray "Y" and God wanted "X" to happen, then "X" will happen.
God is all wise and all knowing so the ONLY way the best possible plan can occur is if God controls every aspect of the plan.

Prayer is (1) an offering up of our desires unto God for things (2) agreeable to His will and (3) done with faith, (4) with confession of our sins, (5) with worship, thanksgiving, sincerity, (6) humbleness, (7) with obedience, (8) persistence, (9) in the name of Christ, (10) in the Spirit, (11) as a method by which God accomplished His sovereign will via second causes, with (12) reverence, (13) we should be animated to pray with the sure hope of succeeding, (14) with boldness and (15) the intersession of the Spirit.

Prayer also is the out working of God. Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.

To ensure you always get what you want, just end all your prayers with: "not my will but Thy will be done" and you will be 100% successful. This is preferable and less successful than: "not Your will but my will be done".

most of the time reading your comments, I need to grab a dictionary at least once

I do that to try to fool people into thinking I know what I am talking about.

Have a good day.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you pray for something that is God's will, then I agree.
If you pray for something that is contrary to God's will, then I don't agree.

If God caused you to pray "X" and God wanted "X" to happen, then "X" will happen.
If God caused you not to pray "X" and God wanted "X" to happen, then "X" will happen.
If God caused/allowed you to pray "Y" and God wanted "X" to happen, then "X" will happen.
God is all wise and all knowing so the ONLY way the best possible plan can occur is if God controls every aspect of the plan.

Prayer is (1) an offering up of our desires unto God for things (2) agreeable to His will and (3) done with faith, (4) with confession of our sins, (5) with worship, thanksgiving, sincerity, (6) humbleness, (7) with obedience, (8) persistence, (9) in the name of Christ, (10) in the Spirit, (11) as a method by which God accomplished His sovereign will via second causes, with (12) reverence, (13) we should be animated to pray with the sure hope of succeeding, (14) with boldness and (15) the intersession of the Spirit.

Prayer also is the out working of God. Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.

To ensure you always get what you want, just end all your prayers with: "not my will but Thy will be done" and you will be 100% successful. This is preferable and less successful than: "not Your will but my will be done".


I do that to try to fool people into thinking I know what I am talking about.

Have a good day.

Why would a calvinist ever pray since he believes everything is predestined by God?
You state many times that God is immutable,,,He does not change.

So you think God will change His mind just because you pray about something?

So you think God is Your Puppet?
You think HE answers to YOU??

When will you realize that your calvinistic Theology makes no sense??

 

[OzSpen]

Like, can we have a new thread on this? In how much is a bible scholar/ teacher's input important for faith/ understanding the word of God? Why can I not trust the Holy Spirit to also help me understand the word of God? Pray for the pastor, when going to church on Sunday, and trust that God will use him to make me grasp the deeper meanings?

Lilac,

That was not Paul's recommendation. He stated what Christians ought to do with all Bible scholars and teachers: "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" (Acts 17:11 NIV).

Paul did not state that those who heard the message from him were to trust the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture. The new Christians who received the message he preached were to examine the Scriptures daily to confirm if Paul was teaching the truth. Remember these Christians only had the OT to refer to.

Blessings,
Oz