Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[GodsGrace]

Re: Puppet ... I use the term analogously to denote one beings control over another being. In other words, one being CAUSES the actions of another being either directly or indirectly
Examples 1: God causes your body to approach the center of the earth via gravity unless another greater force intervenes (here, man is the puppet)
Example 2: a person causes God to adopt him as a son via salvific faith (here, God is the puppet)

Aside: I grant the word 'puppet' is a pejorative.


Using this definition, I agree the neither God or man is a puppet.

In YOUR belief system, man is a puppet.
It cannot be denied and I hope Lilac understands this since your conversations are not very clear.

 

[Lilac]

Paul did not state that those who heard the message from him were to trust the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture. The new Christians who received the message he preached were to examine the Scriptures daily to confirm if Paul was teaching the truth.

Thank you for this enlightening post, Oz. Guess I never read Acts 17 before...

 

[Lilac]

In YOUR belief system, man is a puppet.
It cannot be denied and I hope Lilac understands this since your conversations are not very clear.

Yes, I think I understand, as I read through the lines (don't always read only words). In writing, one can only express about 20% of the meaning of one's communication. Some things are hard to put into words? God is above us, so to speak. He knows everything. We don't. That makes us already less 'free'. If we then, as Christian, confess our faith, and give God our lives, that makes us even more dependent on Him. (Romans 6) Yesterday a few pastors had discussion again about Wednesday nights biblestudy, Cain murdering Abel. In essence, Suicide is murder, too. If a Christian would want to do this to him/ herself, he/ she'd set themselves above God. Everything we do, think, etc if I put myself above God, technically I cannot call myself a Christian. And of course this is not what I want. Therefore, what fastfredy was saying about the different definitions of 'puppet' - to me, a puppet has no own free will what so ever. I do have free will, but I put my will subject to His.

 

[Lilac]

If you pray for something that is God's will, then I agree.
If you pray for something that is contrary to God's will, then I don't agree.

If God caused you to pray "X" and God wanted "X" to happen, then "X" will happen.

(no dictionary used this time) Soo
if I pray for someone's healing and it does not happen
1. it is not God's will for that person to heal in the first place?
2. my prayer is wrong?
I'm inclined to stick to 'keep it simple'
God is God, and He knows everything. I pray, and if the person heals, praise God. If he/ she doesn't, then I let go and hope and believe that 'all things work together for our good'. (maybe I need more teaching on this one, too)

 

[Lilac]

I do that to try to fool people into thinking I know what I am talking about.

? ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I think I understand, as I read through the lines (don't always read only words). In writing, one can only express about 20% of the meaning of one's communication. Some things are hard to put into words?

I agree. Sometimes two persons are saying the same thing but using different language.
Sometimes it SOUNDS like it's the same, but it really isn't.
It could work either way.
And yes, some spiritual things are very difficult to put into words.

God is above us, so to speak. He knows everything. We don't. That makes us already less 'free'. If we then, as Christian, confess our faith, and give God our lives, that makes us even more dependent on Him.

I think we're fully dependent on God.
I don't think we can do anything without His strength.
Jesus said this:
John 15:5b
"For apart from Me you can do nothing".

Why do you always put quotation marks for the word FREE?
Do you believe we are not free?

(Romans 6) Yesterday a few pastors had discussion again about Wednesday nights biblestudy, Cain murdering Abel. In essence, Suicide is murder, too. If a Christian would want to do this to him/ herself, he/ she'd set themselves above God. Everything we do, think, etc if I put myself above God, technically I cannot call myself a Christian. And of course this is not what I want. Therefore, what fastfredy was saying about the different definitions of 'puppet' - to me, a puppet has no own free will what so ever. I do have free will, but I put my will subject to His.

Every Christian puts God's will above his...every Christian subjects himself to God,,,or at least does so to the best of his ability since we all
sin.

The way free will is understood is pivotal to Christianity.
Fastfredy0, being of the reformed faith, cannot believe in true free will because of what that faith paradigm teaches.

As to suicide....it is murder, and a murder that we can't forgive because we are not longer alive.
However, I have had this discussion and I do want to say that persons that kill themselves usually are no longer reasoning.
If a person isn't reasoning, I believe God will have mercy on that person. Who, in their right mind, is able to take their own life?

 

[Lilac]

I think we're fully dependent on God.
I don't think we can do anything without His strength.
Jesus said this:
John 15:5b
"For apart from Me you can do nothing".

Why do you always put quotation marks for the word FREE?
Do you believe we are not free?

Hello wondering
you give the answer yourself ;) - 'I think we are fully dependent on God'. Well, We wish... In real life, we are mere human beings and sometimes make our choices, not always in accordance with the Holy Spirit. At least, I do. I am still aware of my sinful nature, although I am learning, and since I am now a whole person, which happened all last year somewhere around May and now I actually feel I do have a choice NOT to sin - because I believe I have lived under a curse all my life but that is another story...

1. biblically spoken, we are either slaves to sin, or obedient in Christ. The issue with new translations is, they use the words bondservant and slaves interchangable. I think this is a huge error. (forgive me for my wordings sometimes as I am not native English and also I am not a bible scholar so I might express myself with less grandeur) we are not slaves in Christ. A slave has no choice than to serve the master, under any given circumstance.
2. what is the definition of being free? (it feels so wrong not to put it in quotiation)
3. I think being free is an illusion - because - we are born into a family. Then we are to go to school. Then study and/ or work. have a relationship (or not). etc.
The world delutes itself into thinking they are free to choose whatever they want.

 

[Lilac]

The way free will is understood is pivotal to Christianity.

okay
the way I see it:
Since I am freed from that curse, all I want is for God to lead me, guide me and be in my life. I want to be with Him, and for Him to protect me, teach me the true ways in obedience to Him.
In a way, this I choose, with my 'free' will.
now good?

 

[Lilac]

Who, in their right mind, is able to take their own life?

that is so.
I know people who gave up too early, one would say. And others, who gave up after trying everything from their perspective, to find some peace, answers and relieve in this earthly life. Without actually finding it, of course.
And again others who encountered too much pain and suffering, and called it a day...
sad but true.
So for us, as Christians, there should be a key lying around somewhere, to prevent us from even thinking in those directions. Thoughts welcome -
1. if a person is only partially saved, say split personality, for whatever reason (trauma, inherited bad mental health genes etc.) yet, part of that person is saved, so God is keeping him / her alive
2. weak personality, demeanor
3. God has a purpose for that life, therefore makes sure that person stays alive because He is going to use that person to glorify His name?
Trust fully in His guidance and protection, even if situation one finds itself in does not make sense at all?
The header of this thread is: Is man not really capable of seeking God?
So, for this particular issue of people not wanting to live anymore, there has to be an opportunity given to man - of course I can seek God? Matthew 7
...7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened...

However, why are there people who say they seek, and not find, and then decide to not want to live anymore? Okay, that for a new thread
5 steps for non-believers to successfully seek God

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello wondering
you give the answer yourself ;) - 'I think we are fully dependent on God'. Well, We wish... In real life, we are mere human beings and sometimes make our choices, not always in accordance with the Holy Spirit. At least, I do. I am still aware of my sinful nature, although I am learning, and since I am now a whole person, which happened all last year somewhere around May and now I actually feel I do have a choice NOT to sin - because I believe I have lived under a curse all my life but that is another story...

1. biblically spoken, we are either slaves to sin, or obedient in Christ. The issue with new translations is, they use the words bondservant and slaves interchangable. I think this is a huge error. (forgive me for my wordings sometimes as I am not native English and also I am not a bible scholar so I might express myself with less grandeur) we are not slaves in Christ. A slave has no choice than to serve the master, under any given circumstance.
2. what is the definition of being free? (it feels so wrong not to put it in quotiation)
3. I think being free is an illusion - because - we are born into a family. Then we are to go to school. Then study and/ or work. have a relationship (or not). etc.
The world delutes itself into thinking they are free to choose whatever they want.

I agree with the above and understand why you put free in quotation marks.
But there's no need to and I'll explain why.

1. We are either slaves to sin or free in Christ. Romans 6 does say that we present ourselves and are slaves to whom we present ourself.
That is a way of speaking....IOW, better to be a slave to Christ than to satan.

However, we of the Christian faith understand that we are not SLAVES to Christ but are FRIENDS to Christ.
A slave MUST obey....a friend WANTS to obey.

John 15:14 Jesus said:
"You are my FRIENDS if you do what I command you".

In John 16:7 Jesus tells the Apostles that He will send a HELPER when He (Jesus) goes away.
7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

Jesus is sending a helper...not someone who will force us to obey.
This is because we are friends.

2 & 3. You feel like this about being free and you're right. We're not really free. We can't do whatever we want to.
However, when it come to theology or biblical understanding of the word FREE, it just means that we have a choice as to what
we want to do in a MORAL sense. We have a choice to obey God or not to obey...we can choose to follow Him and be saved, or not
follow Him and be lost...if we're presented with sinning or not sinning, we have a choice as to what we want to do.

So, when on this site, or when speaking about biblical freedom, you do not have to put it in quotation marks because it's speaking about
a different type of freedom....it's a moral freedom.

Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

John 15:14
"You are my friends, IF you do what I command you."

In both the O.T. and the N.T. God gives us the choice to choose HIM.
With our free will we have a moral choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

okay
the way I see it:
Since I am freed from that curse, all I want is for God to lead me, guide me and be in my life. I want to be with Him, and for Him to protect me, teach me the true ways in obedience to Him.
In a way, this I choose, with my 'free' will.
now good?

LOL
I just answered this.

 

[Fastfredy0]

forgive me for my wordings sometimes as I am not native English

Wow, I couldn't tell. You organize your ideas well so it's easy to follow.

what is the definition of being free?

*giggles* ... it is very rare to have someone articulate what 'free will' means. They say they know what it means, but when asked specific questions and/or to elaborate they respond with silence.

The world delutes itself into thinking they are free to choose whatever they want.

Again, what does "free to choose" mean. I believe I am 'free to choose', but then my definition is "I always chose what I desire most at the time" (definition stolen from Augustine). (Aside: God is capable of changing my natural desires. When I die He will change my desires to be the same as His desires for me. )

Another definition:
Libertarian Free Will - Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty).

The majority of this forum's definition of 'Free Will' IMO is 'UNKNOWN' or 'UNSTATED' or "STATED so generally as to have no real meaning".

 

[GodsGrace]

that is so.
I know people who gave up too early, one would say. And others, who gave up after trying everything from their perspective, to find some peace, answers and relieve in this earthly life. Without actually finding it, of course.
And again others who encountered too much pain and suffering, and called it a day...
sad but true.
So for us, as Christians, there should be a key lying around somewhere, to prevent us from even thinking in those directions. Thoughts welcome -

Yes, there should be this key somewhere.
I like to say that when things are going well and all is good...it is a good time to consider things of the bible.
What it means that there is evil in the world...
how to overcome it and not let it overcome us.

Because when things go bad...and they will someday, we have some kind of base to stand on.
We understand better what is happening to us.

If we wait till the bad comes, it's too late because we can't think correctly anymore.
I think the key is to trust God and also to seek help.
Depression alone does not cause one to commit suicide....there has to be some other element involved...
not that I would know what that element is. Maybe it's as easy as you've stated in this post...too much pain...
not waiting long enough for things to resolve, etc.

1. if a person is only partially saved, say split personality, for whatever reason (trauma, inherited bad mental health genes etc.) yet, part of that person is saved, so God is keeping him / her alive
2. weak personality, demeanor
3. God has a purpose for that life, therefore makes sure that person stays alive because He is going to use that person to glorify His name?
Trust fully in His guidance and protection, even if situation one finds itself in does not make sense at all?
The header of this thread is: Is man not really capable of seeking God?
So, for this particular issue of people not wanting to live anymore, there has to be an opportunity given to man - of course I can seek God? Matthew 7
...7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened...

However, why are there people who say they seek, and not find, and then decide to not want to live anymore? Okay, that for a new thread
5 steps for non-believers to successfully seek God

The above makes sense and you've thought this through well.
I had a friend, many years ago, that committed suicide. She had an 8 year old daughter that was left behind and her husband and sisters.
They never really got over this. I feel like it's also a very egotistical thing to do, but, like I said earlier, I don't think these persons know what they're doing. This one folder her clothes neatly in a pile by the lake before she walked in. Why??? No answer. We can't ask her.

As to everyone not finding....Jesus said we only need the faith of a mustard seed for salvation.
But to fully have the advantages of our faith, we need to understand it well and that requires some study.
We need a deep relationship with God in order for His Holy Spirit to work in our lives.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow, I couldn't tell. You organize your ideas well so it's easy to follow.


*giggles* ... it is very rare to have someone articulate what 'free will' means. They say they know what it means, but when asked specific questions and/or to elaborate they respond with silence.


Again, what does "free to choose" mean. I believe I am 'free to choose', but then my definition is "I always chose what I desire most at the time" (definition stolen from Augustine). (Aside: God is capable of changing my natural desires. When I die He will change my desires to be the same as His desires for me. )

Another definition:
Libertarian Free Will - Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty).

The majority of this forum's definition of 'Free Will' IMO is 'UNKNOWN' or 'UNSTATED' or "STATED so generally as to have no real meaning".

When I posted the above to the other member,,,this page came up.
I won't reply to it since we've been through this before.
I'll only repeat that you need a dictionary because biblical free will is VERY EASY to understand.
But for some reason,,,YOU make it very difficult.

God meant for ALL to understand His word...not just those that spend pages trying to understand what free will is
and end up not understanding it at all !

Like, what does WHAT I DESIRE MOST AT THE TIME mean anyway?
If I desire that diamond ring the jeweler left in front of me while he left...
and it is what I desire most at the time, am I supposed to steal it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow, I couldn't tell. You organize your ideas well so it's easy to follow.


*giggles* ... it is very rare to have someone articulate what 'free will' means. They say they know what it means, but when asked specific questions and/or to elaborate they respond with silence.


Again, what does "free to choose" mean. I believe I am 'free to choose', but then my definition is "I always chose what I desire most at the time" (definition stolen from Augustine). (Aside: God is capable of changing my natural desires. When I die He will change my desires to be the same as His desires for me. )

Another definition:
Libertarian Free Will -https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/280331/jewish/Nitzevet-Mother-of-David.htm(equilibrium in uncertainty).

The majority of this forum's definition of 'Free Will' IMO is 'UNKNOWN' or 'UNSTATED' or "STATED so generally as to have no real meaning".

BTW,,,you keep posting an INCORRECT definition of libertarian free will.
When you use other's words, you should always post the source.
Can you please post the source for your definition of libertarian free will?
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

BTW,,,you keep posting an INCORRECT definition of libertarian free will.
When you use other's words, you should always post the source.
Can you please post the source for your definition of libertarian free will?
Thanks.

For Fastfredy0

Please reply to above.

 

[Lilac]

Wow, I couldn't tell. You organize your ideas well so it's easy to follow.

? Thank you.

 

[Lilac]

What is libertarian free will? | GotQuestions.org

What is libertarian free will? Is free will the only way humans can be morally responsible for their actions?

www.gotquestions.org

Question: "What is libertarian free will?"

Answer: Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces...

... The first thing to take into account regarding the biblical position of libertarian free will is what the Bible says about God. The Bible describes God as sovereign, and sovereignty designates control....

...So we need to ask ourselves how does libertarian free will fit in with God’s sovereignty? Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs: “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps” (Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God....

= this I understand.

...Now, we must be careful not to swing to the (equally) unbiblical view that God is the divine Puppet Master and we are merely His puppets. This is the view of hard determinism in which man is reduced to an automaton making robotic responses to situations. The Bible presents a third option between hard determinism and libertarian free will, and that is the view called compatibilism, or soft determinism. In this view, man makes real choices and will be held responsible by God for those choices.

-The choices that man makes emanate from his desires. - ( Fastfredy0 )

God grants the creature a certain amount of freedom, but that freedom always operates within the boundaries of God’s sovereignty....

 

[Lilac]

God grants the creature a certain amount of freedom, but that freedom always operates within the boundaries of God’s sovereignty....

because I am saved. I'd still have the freedom to sin, but, most of the time, I don't even want to anymore.

 

[Lilac]

BTW,,,you keep posting an INCORRECT definition of libertarian free will.

wondering, how can a definition be incorrect?
Cambridge dictonary of the word 'definition':
a statement that explains the meaning of a word or phrase:

does a definition of something not depend on the person observing and writing it?