Lilac
Member
sorry to read about your friend, ?
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Is man not really capable of seeking God?
- Thread starter Walpole
- Start date
No!!
The definition of a word does not depend on the person writing it.
It depends on what it means in reality or we would not be able to u nderstand each other.
The other member always posts his explanation of Libertarian Free Will.
The problem is that this is not the definition of Libertarian Free Will.
He no doubt gets this definition from a calvinist site and so it is explained the way THEY understand it to be.
He THINKS this is what libertarian free will is,,,,
BUT IT IS NOT!
Calvinists seem to understand everything their very own way that only they understand.
Every other Christian does not agree with them. And rightly so since the doctrine of calvinism were never accepted by
the Early Church. (I think we spoke about this).
They actually believe we do not have free will but are made to do what God wants us to do....
like robots that are programmed by Him. I don't think God wants robots loving Him...I believe He wants
true love and true love has to be love given in freedom.
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Wow, someone has been doing their homework.
Lilac
Member
Yep, cause I'm recently learning from some people on a forum
Compatibilism makes sense?
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Makes sense to me, but then I am in the minority. Majority are 'free will' because they feel good loves everyone.
Compatibilism holds that, when properly defined, human free will and divine determinism are complementary ideas; that is, it is possible to accept both without being logically inconsistent. Compatibilism contends that one’s will is free with the boundaries of one’s nature. Unregenerated human will is free only within the limitations of human finiteness and depravity. Since depraved human nature cannot obey God, fallen humans are free only to sin. Fallen humans sin freely in that they want to sin, doing so without coercion. A biblical theodicy accords with a compatibilistic view of human freedom. A biblical theodicy assumes not that man in his fallenness has the ability to obey God but rather that fallen humans in their corrupted nature chose only what serves their own pleasure and power. The following biblical principles explain how all this can be true:
- God predetermines all events (Ephesians 1:11b)
- The fall resulted in physical difficulties and catastrophes (Isaiah 45:7; Romans 8:20-22)
- God predetermines sin but makes man accountable for his sin (Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28; Acts 14:16)
- God hardens sinners in sin (Romans 9:18)
- God never tempts people to sin (James 1:13).
- God is never blamed in Scripture for sin or portrayed as enjoying the sin he permits (Psalm 5:4)
- God never coerces man to sin but ordains that man sin freely and thus be culpable (James 1:14-15)
- God controls people’s sin, working mysteriously through secondary causes (2 Samuel 24:1, 2 Samuel 24:10; 1 Chronicles 21:1).
- God is glorified in his justice when he causes calamites and judges sin (Isaiah 34:5-7; Ezekiel 28:22; John 9:2-5).
- God has graciously provided salvation from sin for those who believe in Christ (Romans 3:24-26).
John MacArthur Biblical Doctrine pg. 225
I don't think the forum is a good place to learn. It is a good place to consider contrary ideas I suppose. But the crux of the matter is how to discern "truth" when contrary theories are postulated?
Lilac
Member
This is the first time I am on a Christian forum. Usually I'd like to be present IRL.
However, this pandemic etc...
Our church has some activities online, but it's not the same. They now started to be more active on Facebook, but, well that's another discussion.
It's not prohibited for churches here in Northern Ireland to hold meetings, however, they get shamed from the public so much, they'd rather hold the doors closed (if you know a bit about the history here)
I might have expressed myself incorrectly. One way I learn: I read and check out the different comments people post, how they react/ respond.
- Does it make sense to me?
- Do I agree/ disagree?
- Or is it something that interests me and I would like to know more about it?
I have seen and heard a lot, lived in different countries and places, and attended a broad range of churches. Personally I was not always aware of the doctrine but most of the time, went on 'what felt good', at the moment in time.
So to me, here, I see a variety of viewpoints, some are new to me, interest me so I read, study and learn.
What is truth?
- I believe truth in general with us here, human beings on earth, can be quite subjective.
One can claim something as universal truth, and someone else can for themselves deny this.
If a Christian says, the bible is the truth, they take every word for it. But in practise? Do they also act upon it?
So I guess, as a Christian, in theory, I say, the bible is the truth. Period. Yes I "believe" this.
For another person, the bible is just a book. So, I can tell this other person, to believe in God, and accept the bible as the truth.
It becomes truth for that person, if he/ she accepts it.
(I feel like I'm waffeling now but)
What I am trying to say I think, is, that if I find a certain thought process or new theory interesting, and I read about it and agree to it, then it becomes truth for me.
So about this compatibilism, I would need to read more about it to fully agree, and your posts helping me further in my search for security with/ in God.
Serving Zion
Member
Personally I think it is true that the one who is using the word has the right to be understood by the one hearing it. So if there is any dispute about what the word means, then it is the writer's intention that matters, not the definition of the word they have used.
If it turns out that they have chosen to use a word that they had mistakenly thought had a different meaning than they intended, then they have a responsibility to choose the more relevant word/s. However, the fact that they have chosen to use a word that doesn't reflect their intention should never be used to undermine their intention by claiming that they had actually meant to say what the words said instead of what they intended to say. In that way we can sometimes see people who don't use language well, and if we are going to get along with them, then we need to look past their words and speak to what they are actually saying.
Lilac
Member
and of course, in court for instance, truth is confirmed if one has evidence. Than the prosecution proofs to be correct. With faith, there is no evidence in that sense, as Jesus and God are 'invisible' in heaven. Well, there is evidence, in the form of Christians encountering healing, changing their life for the better, etc. But as stated before, This is only accepted as truth by believers, or the person who comes to believe through witness of faith.
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
I think we are of similar minds in our 'search for truth'. I've studied biblical a lot. I think I have a better of biblical truth than most people, but then there are many who feel they have a better biblical understanding.
To complicate the search for truth, there is the fact that smart people than I who have studied these things more than I have come to the same conclusion as I, or in some cases to a different conclusion. I sure hope God gives points for trying .... I assume so as He says to "study to show thyself approved".
Then there is the issue that a forum tends to stress the 10% we don't agree upon 90% of the time; and not the 90% we agree upon 10% of the time ... to further bias our outlook as to the amount of variation in ideas. I think I am "waffling" now too .....
I've read 10 to 15ish Systematic Theology books. From them I have about 1,000 pages of WELL ORGANIZED notes, including 18 pages on Compatibilism, Determinism and Free Will which is part of 60 pages about the sovereignty of God. You are welcome to a copy of the 18, 60 or 1000 pages if you give me your email; you can send me a private message if so inclined. The notes would be superior to ad hoc postings. (Or I can give you a list of 30ish books... lol ... a couple are written by Arminians .. Pope and Theissan and Barth)
Serving Zion
Member
I think everyone is inclined to accept the truth if they aren't afraid of it. When you look at the way children ask questions without any fear of the truth, you can see that something has gone badly awry when we find people who can't accept the logical truths that lead to faith in God. Even some Christians do not accept the truth and they become obstinate "Christians in name only", so it's not just the truths that lead to faith in God, but there is something about the truth itself that tends to frighten people enough that they won't go near it. The problem with that is that God is light, and in Him is no darkness... so therefore He is only able to be approached by those who are not afraid of the light. So I say that if everyone was honest enough, the truth alone would be sufficient for the world to have faith in God and there wouldn't be any need of proof beyond the logical sense that is intrinsic to the truth.
That's partly what Jesus was saying with regards to Sodom and Gomorrah. They didn't have the miracles to demonstrate God's power to them, and yet they were still judged because of their wickedness (Matthew 11:2-24, Luke 17:28-30).
SZ
A word has a meaning....
a person cannot change that meaning or we cease to communicate.
For instance:
FREE WILL means free will. It doesn't mean anything else.
SAVED means saved. It doesn't mean anything else.
In your example above...one of the parties is wrong in their understanding of the meaning of the word.
It's pretty easy.
There are dictionaries for those that are not sure of what a word means or of what word to use.
What does CHOICE mean?
Can it mean something different than what it means?
I don't think so.
And this, of course, is for those that speak English.
Those on this site speak English.
Serving Zion
Member
That's right, it's exactly right. The only thing I am saying is that if you get tied up with the definition of a word when you know full well what the writer means to say, then it doesn't change what the writer is saying. Their meaning is the important thing, not the word they have chosen. Look past the words and look to what is being said.
Agreed.
I've often said that we might be saying the same thing but using different words.
What you say is true when discussing theological issues.
Different denominations use different words.
So, yes, I agree with you in this case.
Free will is about choosing from ones own basis of choice.
Some determinists suggest that actually given the limited number of choice over which we choose, it is not free.
But this misses the point. If a creature can choose left or right, and change their mind part way through that is free will. Clearly the whole of creation has free will within constraints of existence. The dominating factor is cognition, the ability to abstract oneself outside of a situation and then choose options, and after analysis proceed with the best alternative.
A computer neural network can be programmed to create conclusions, and then based on an equation, choose one.
If one can create oneself as many layers as one likes, then that is free will. A computer system can only follow its line of logic. Given enough layers, a computer system could exercise free will. Determinists live in a free will world which is why they argue, because if the listener could not choose to agree or disagree why argue?
If you look at our biology. The reason we take so long to grow up, is because the layers of culture, language, knowledge need to be laid down so that the exercising of free will works within the limitations set, and is constructive not destructive. We learn in a linear fashion, so until the picture is reasonably complete there is actually only biased behaviour. It creates the situations where you could argue we are biased no matter what, which is true, but some biases are more healthy than others.
Jesus put it in reaping what you sow. Sow to life, reap life, sow to death, reap death.
Equally our linear experience of life, means our foundations are critical to the whole assembly lasting complete till we die and into eternity. Those with a limited and flawed approach will learn when the building collapses, but then it is too late. You cannot unmake in a day what takes a lifetime to walk.
One could suggest this puts a slant of free will, in the sense the elect will follow God, and the rest are lost, and there is nothing one can do, because if you do not see, shouting louder does not help. With regards to sin, it binds the soul of a sinner, because they cannot resolve their need for love from God with the void they have within. The shell of proving oneself before men, will finally come crashing down, when the time comes. It does not have to be this way, because love is always there waiting for the sinner to repent and open up, take the risk and let Jesus in.
God bless you
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Agreed...and the depravity of man ensures that 100.00% of the time man will NOT chose to believe in Christ in order to be saved.
This is an example of 'free will', but again does not explain what causes the will to do "X" or "Y".
Again, this does not explain what causes the will to do "X" or "Y" save for the fact that we have a mind. But what causes the mind to chose "X" or "Y".
As a software engineer I can state that a computer follows the logic of a program at all times. It has no freedom to chose. This logic is not relevant to 'free will' in any way.
Aside: I see little relevancy in the remainder of the post.
I really want to know more about your concept of "free will"; I dare say that it is the pinnacle of your theology of faith leading to salvation ....
Free of what? What thing(s) if anything determine whether you will believe salvifically or not? If any external thing causes you to believe, how can it be called “free will” .... after all, this is the crux of how so many of you think one comes to faith; it's because everyone has 'free will' that enables them to chose to believe salvifically. Well DEFINE FREE WILL !!!!!
Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty). At least the internet is not afraid to give a definition.
Hey FF,,,,
I guess we're just a computer to God.
He programmed us and that's it.
PeterJens explained about free will.
When Jesus said that one reaps what they sow...THAT is free will.
You're free to sow --- or else why would Jesus state that?
(you've never answered this type of question BTW)
(Guess God Father forget to tell God Son how the program works).
But to answer your question as to what causes a person to choose x or y:
I guess YOU would say that it is God that created or causes the choice.
So whatever you choose it is God determining your choice.
So when you choose to sin,,,it is God that is making you sin,
AND
He's going to hold you responsible for a choice that GOD actually made for you.
I know you won't reply...no problem.
This is good for those reading along that use their common sense to understand God.
Oh.
And, once again,
The above is NOT the definition of Libertarian Free Will.
RC Sproul doesn't even believe in free will,,,,
Why would you accept HIS definition of it.
And please remember to post the source of your italics.
Thanks.
Assumptions. Nothing is provable, all is assumption. Do you understand the meaning of this?
Biblical free will implies guilt and responsibility.
It is the foundation of integrity and justice. Our assumption is we exist and chose everything we do. You chose to read and respond to this thread. No one or anything forces you to do it
Your very desire to get me to choose to agree with you shows you believe and act with free will. Love can only exist with free will, or how else is a good act valued more than an evil act
Time exists to create movement and interaction. Nothing can exist without time because without time we are infinitely everywhere or nowhere.
To argue against free will is to make valueless the cross, love and a righteous life, God is both good and evil, and a puppet master of all.
With free will, we doom ourselves in rebellion against Him, always wanting to prove ourselves. But we fear freedom because we fear the path, so much safer to say it's outside our grasp.
God bless you
Free will propositions that think words can define objective and subjective reality when we exist as only linear subjective creatures are vapourware.
Choice is real, but my thoughts exist within my brain, molded by culture, education, age, feelings, health etc. What is clear in nature is choice is manipulated to be free but focused, random but predictable. Did I choose to fall in love, have kids, follow Jesus? In part, but also in context. Emotions drive the train, but it can crash and burn or shine like a light.
Overplay the emotions and we are guiltless, underplay them, we are perfect. Love levels the conversation, seeing truth and it guiding us home in Christ.
God bless you
Choice is real, but my thoughts exist within my brain, molded by culture, education, age, feelings, health etc. What is clear in nature is choice is manipulated to be free but focused, random but predictable. Did I choose to fall in love, have kids, follow Jesus? In part, but also in context. Emotions drive the train, but it can crash and burn or shine like a light.
Overplay the emotions and we are guiltless, underplay them, we are perfect. Love levels the conversation, seeing truth and it guiding us home in Christ.
God bless you
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Heb 11:6
Imagine if we say God only rewards those who He causes to earnestly seek Him, would this not make a farce of this verse. If there was no choice why a reward? Its like running a computer program and counting the winner of the algorithm when it will always be the same, because the winners cannot lose and the losers can never win.
Imagine you can grasp one word, infinity. Imagine also the divide between two letters is infinitely complex.
No matter how small that gap, it would define everything, because infinity never stops. Start counting now and never stop. Whatever number you meet, you know you will get higher, forever. Choice stops infinity, it provides a break, an unpredictable creative movement. It makes things interesting, allows for the unexpected, the creative.
Look around you, everything is built for change, variation, development, exploration, new possibilities. Once you begin to see how 10 different things can be arranged, and add 10 layers of complexity, things go insane. Look at the universe we know, it is variety gone wild, so different it is realised earth is currently unique.
Listen to the beatitudes. A few sentences, but within them our emotional life and future, a truthful perspective and a role of God, love, forgiveness, mercy and hope. Embracing sadness as the cost for life and freedom, while the world denies pain and embraces laughter and enjoyment at the cost of suffering for others.
Chaos theory is interesting, like quantum mechanics. How can these "possible outcomes" bring about order and control? Choice is the key. God chooses and created, and made us in His image. Our choosing brought about sin and rebellion, but our embracing Christ brings life and freedom with forgiveness.
Emotionally Jesus chose us, we just agreed.
God bless you
Imagine if we say God only rewards those who He causes to earnestly seek Him, would this not make a farce of this verse. If there was no choice why a reward? Its like running a computer program and counting the winner of the algorithm when it will always be the same, because the winners cannot lose and the losers can never win.
Imagine you can grasp one word, infinity. Imagine also the divide between two letters is infinitely complex.
No matter how small that gap, it would define everything, because infinity never stops. Start counting now and never stop. Whatever number you meet, you know you will get higher, forever. Choice stops infinity, it provides a break, an unpredictable creative movement. It makes things interesting, allows for the unexpected, the creative.
Look around you, everything is built for change, variation, development, exploration, new possibilities. Once you begin to see how 10 different things can be arranged, and add 10 layers of complexity, things go insane. Look at the universe we know, it is variety gone wild, so different it is realised earth is currently unique.
Listen to the beatitudes. A few sentences, but within them our emotional life and future, a truthful perspective and a role of God, love, forgiveness, mercy and hope. Embracing sadness as the cost for life and freedom, while the world denies pain and embraces laughter and enjoyment at the cost of suffering for others.
Chaos theory is interesting, like quantum mechanics. How can these "possible outcomes" bring about order and control? Choice is the key. God chooses and created, and made us in His image. Our choosing brought about sin and rebellion, but our embracing Christ brings life and freedom with forgiveness.
Emotionally Jesus chose us, we just agreed.
God bless you