Is repentance needed for salvation?

[Rookie]

They don't commit sin, because they have been reborn from God's seed. (1 John 3:9)

Hmm, then what did Peter do here: Luke 24:54-62

As James makes it clear that sin requires lust, temptation, enticement, and conception, (James 1:14-15), it isn't possible for any sin to be committed without knowledge of it happening.

Here's a personal story for you, I was 5 or 6 years old, one of my earliest memories. And I was playing with a cat belonging to my cousins. For some reason in my 5 year old mind, I started tossing it up in the air like a ball (it was a baby cat), and it kept landing on concrete, which was too rough for it's baby body to handle so it started to bleed. I didn't know what was happening, so I continued doing it, over & over & over, until the baby cat stopped moving and the ground was spattered in this red liquid. Then an adult with my cousin came out, saw what I did, and the rest is history.

Looking back I clearly know that was murder, but I was 5 years old, I wasn't even capable of encapsulating what murder was, even at 7 when my uncle died, I didn't know why everyone was so sad, I just knew it brought my cousins around so I thought funerals were fun. That's until my aunt died 4 years later I understood what funerals were. I didn't know the concept of death, so you can very well sin unintentionally. The 3 year old that denies eating the chocolate cake, when it's all over their face, the 4 year old who flushes all the toilet paper down the toilet and breaks the pipes. The 5 year old who killed a cat. All unknowingly of what their actions were, what sin is, what sin does to us, what God is or any of that. Even some adults don't even fully encapsulate what sin is or what it does to us & our relationship with God.

Again you took James out of context, (as I'm also very familiar with that verse), if you look at the verse above, the purpose of 14 & 15 is to dictate how temptation is not from God but from ourselves and our own desire, it makes no such remarks about the origin of all sin. Beware of eisegesis my friend.

My "salvation" will be granted on the last day.
A better question would have been..."Have you sinned since your conversion, or, rebirth from God's seed?"

Again creating new doctrines and overcomplicating Scripture with personal ideas.

My answer is NO.
To the glory of God and the name of Jesus Christ !

So you never lied, lusted at someone in your heart, had an attitude, thought to do anyone wrong, or even thought to do something good for someone and didn't do it?

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His Word is not in us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hmm, then what did Peter do here: Luke 24:54-62

There is no Luke 24:54-62.
As your citing comes before Peter's reception of the Holy Spirit, (Acts 2), it means he was not yet converted.

Here's a personal story for you, I was 5 or 6 years old, one of my earliest memories. And I was playing with a cat belonging to my cousins. For some reason in my 5 year old mind, I started tossing it up in the air like a ball (it was a baby cat), and it kept landing on concrete, which was too rough for it's baby body to handle so it started to bleed. I didn't know what was happening, so I continued doing it, over & over & over, until the baby cat stopped moving and the ground was spattered in this red liquid. Then an adult with my cousin came out, saw what I did, and the rest is history.

I hope you got your butt beat, and were taught about life and death.

Looking back I clearly know that was murder, but I was 5 years old, I wasn't even capable of encapsulating what murder was, even at 7 when my uncle died, I didn't know why everyone was so sad, I just knew it brought my cousins around so I thought funerals were fun. That's until my aunt died 4 years later I understood what funerals were. I didn't know the concept of death, so you can very well sin unintentionally.

A sin requires temptation.
What were you tempted to do ?
Sin requires lust.
What did you lust for ?
With growth/wisdom comes knowledge.
If you don't intentionally kill, you are not a murderer.
Why look for condemnation where there is none ?

The 3 year old that denies eating the chocolate cake, when it's all over their face, the 4 year old who flushes all the toilet paper down the toilet and breaks the pipes. The 5 year old who killed a cat. All unknowingly of what their actions were, what sin is, what sin does to us, what God is or any of that. Even some adults don't even fully encapsulate what sin is or what it does to us & our relationship with God.

"Unknowingly".
That is the difference between being a sin and not being a sin.

Again you took James out of context, (as I'm also very familiar with that verse), if you look at the verse above, the purpose of 14 & 15 is to dictate how temptation is not from God but from ourselves and our own desire, it makes no such remarks about the origin of all sin. Beware of eisegesis my friend.

Though not in context, it stands alone as a truth.
Without lust, temptation, enticement, and conception there is no sin.

Again creating new doctrines and overcomplicating Scripture with personal ideas.

How is remaining free from sin complicated ?
Jesus commanded it, and then lived it.
Then He provided us all we need to accomplish it.

So you never lied, lusted at someone in your heart, had an attitude, thought to do anyone wrong, or even thought to do something good for someone and didn't do it?

Correct.
Thanks be to God for repentance from sin and rebirth from His seed.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His Word is not in us.

Written to/of those walking in sin (darkness, Pro 4:19)
Sinners can't honestly say they have no sin.
Verses 6, and 10, also are written to/of those walking in darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 are written to/of those who walk in God, who is light.
As there is no darkness in God, there can't be darkness (sin) in those walking in Him.
John is juxtaposing light with darkness in chapter 1.
Juxtaposing those walking in sin with those who walk in God.

 

[Randy]

Yes, and repentance is a good start.

Jesus- repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Those that continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth don't know Jesus and should expect judgment.

We can be sure that we know Him if we obey His teaching. 4 Anyone who says, “I know Him,” but does not obey His teaching is a liar. There is no truth in him. 5 But whoever obeys His Word has the love of God made perfect in him. This is the way to know if you belong to Christ.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and understanding.

 

[Rookie]

There is no Luke 24:54-62.

This sentence blew any credibility completely out the water as there is: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 22:54-62&version=NIV

I hope you got your butt beat, and were taught about life and death.

I did alright, not your place to dictate that though, but that means it was sinful correct, yet I didn't know, I didn't even have the neurological capacity to know correct?

A sin requires temptation.
What were you tempted to do ?
Sin requires lust.
What did you lust for ?
With growth/wisdom comes knowledge.
If you don't intentionally kill, you are not a murderer.
Why look for condemnation where there is none ?

1. There was no temptation, at that time a cat & a ball was no different in my eyes.
2. There was no lust to even have
3. Murderer definition: any person who commits murder.
4. The Bible clearly says it's possible to sin unintentionally, God even addressed it directly to the Israelites, read your Bible:

Leviticus 4:2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,

Numbers 15:22 "But if you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments that the Lord has spoken to Moses,"

Hebrews 9:7, "But into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people."

Numbers 15:22-29 "“But if you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments that the Lord has spoken to Moses, all that the Lord has commanded you by Moses, from the day that the Lord gave commandment, and onward throughout your generations, then if it was done unintentionally without the knowledge of the congregation, all the congregation shall offer one bull from the herd for a burnt offering, a pleasing aroma to the Lord, with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the rule, and one male goat for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the people of Israel, and they shall be forgiven, because it was a mistake, and they have brought their offering, a food offering to the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord for their mistake. And all the congregation of the people of Israel shall be forgiven, and the stranger who sojourns among them, because the whole population was involved in the mistake"

Psalm 19:12 "Who could possibly know all that he has done wrong? Forgive my hidden and unknown faults."

"Unknowingly".
That is the difference between being a sin and not being a sin.

No Scripture to back that up, the difference from being in sin and not, is being in sin, and not being in sin.

Though not in context, it stands alone as a truth.

No, by taking it out of context, it supports your truth, by keeping Scripture in context as it always should, it supports THE TRUTH. That's like saying because the Scripture, "Take like east, eat, drink, and be merry", means we can be gluttons & drunkards and live carefree, which without context anyone would assume this.

How is remaining free from sin complicated ?

That's not your thesis, your thesis is we have no law to follow, for the law is sinful. The thing is, how can you know what sin is sinful and how sinful is sin, without the Bible to tell you so? Answer: Impossible. Unless you are alluding that you're perfect, which is blasphemous to state.

Written to/of those walking in sin (darkness, Pro 4:19)

Proverbs 4:19 was written by Solomon, more than a thousand years earlier than the writer of 1 John was even born. And if you read the whole chapter of 1 John 1, He is talking to believers:

1 John 1:1 "And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete. This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."
Last time I checked, sinners don't make their fellowship with Jesus Christ.

Sinners can't honestly say they have no sin.

We are all sinners,

Romans 3:10-12 10 as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one; 11no one understands;no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
Romans 3:23 23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God's glorious standard.
Only difference between Christians in the world, is we are sinners saved by grace, while they are sinners away from grace.

Correct.
Thanks be to God for repentance from sin and rebirth from His seed.

I mean of course, you can tell me anything, but God knows the truth, that's between you and God, I'm not even going to delve into that, although Scripture clearly points that a statement like that is not truth.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This sentence blew any credibility completely out the water as there is: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 22:54-62&version=NIV

You did notice your citing was different from the one posted previously.

I did alright, not your place to dictate that though,

Hopes are not "dictates".

but that means it was sinful correct, yet I didn't know, I didn't even have the neurological capacity to know correct?

As you didn't "know" it was sinful, it was not sinful to you.
So not sinful to you.

1. There was no temptation, at that time a cat & a ball was no different in my eyes.
2. There was no lust to even have

So, according to James it was not sin.

3. Murderer definition: any person who commits murder.

Murder requires hate.
Did you hate that kitten ?

4. The Bible clearly says it's possible to sin unintentionally, God even addressed it directly to the Israelites, read your Bible:

He didn't address it in the NT.
Sin requires lust, enticement, temptation, and conception. (James 1:14-15)

Leviticus 4:2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,
Numbers 15:22 "But if you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments that the Lord has spoken to Moses,"
Hebrews 9:7, "But into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
Numbers 15:22-29 "“But if you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments that the Lord has spoken to Moses, all that the Lord has commanded you by Moses, from the day that the Lord gave commandment, and onward throughout your generations, then if it was done unintentionally without the knowledge of the congregation, all the congregation shall offer one bull from the herd for a burnt offering, a pleasing aroma to the Lord, with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the rule, and one male goat for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the people of Israel, and they shall be forgiven, because it was a mistake, and they have brought their offering, a food offering to the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord for their mistake. And all the congregation of the people of Israel shall be forgiven, and the stranger who sojourns among them, because the whole population was involved in the mistake"
Psalm 19:12 "Who could possibly know all that he has done wrong? Forgive my hidden and unknown faults."

No Scripture to back that up, the difference from being in sin and not, is being in sin, and not being in sin.

Are you still living in the OT, or are you living in the NT ?

No, by taking it out of context, it supports your truth, by keeping Scripture in context as it always should, it supports THE TRUTH. That's like saying because the Scripture, "Take like east, eat, drink, and be merry", means we can be gluttons & drunkards and live carefree, which without context anyone would assume this.

That "truth" would be the truth that can make you free...from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)
If we are under the NT, there is no accidental sin.
Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
That is what is required to gain eternal life.

That's not your thesis, your thesis is we have no law to follow, for the law is sinful. The thing is, how can you know what sin is sinful and how sinful is sin, without the Bible to tell you so? Answer: Impossible. Unless you are alluding that you're perfect, which is blasphemous to state.

You have forgotten that the truly repentant (of sin) receive the gift o the Holy Ghost, which keeps us keenly aware of what is or is not a sin.

Proverbs 4:19 was written by Solomon, more than a thousand years earlier than the writer of 1 John was even born.

So what ?
He writes that the way of the wicked is as darkness.
What is the way of the wicked ?
Sinfulness !
Darkness is sinfulness.

And if you read the whole chapter of 1 John 1, He is talking to believers:

Agreed.

1 John 1:1 "And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete. This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."
Last time I checked, sinners don't make their fellowship with Jesus Christ.

Correct !

We are all sinners,

Then nobody has fellowship with God or Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:6)
I am glad you are wrong, and that some men actually do "turn from" sin.

Romans 3:10-12 10 as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one; 11no one understands;no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
Romans 3:23 23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God's glorious standard.

Paul's citings from the OT were made to show the Law keeping Jews that the Law was not sufficient to get them eternal life.
The Jews needed a Redeemer as much as the Gentiles did.

Only difference between Christians in the world, is we are sinners saved by grace, while they are sinners away from grace.

You have bought the devil's lies.
What good did Jesus' suffering and death do if we are still servants of sin ?

I mean of course, you can tell me anything, but God knows the truth, that's between you and God, I'm not even going to delve into that, although Scripture clearly points that a statement like that is not truth.

Jesus said the truth could free us from service to sin, in John 8:32-34.
He was right.
Paul writes..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Peter writes..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
John writes..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Which of them is wrong ?
None are wrong.

 

[Rookie]

You did notice your citing was different from the one posted previously.

Don't know what you're talking about, still doesn't change the fact that I refuted your understanding. I mere took what you said here:

There is no Luke 24:54-62.

And plugged in "Luke 24:54-62" into google, and Got my answer. It's ok to admit you made a mistake, it saves your credibility.

Hopes are not "dictates".

Dictates are a form of saying, you said it, so I just used a synonym.

As you didn't "know" it was sinful, it was not sinful to you.
So not sinful to you.

Who cares about if it wasn't sinful to me, I'm not the standard God is. This is the flaw in your theology, that we can define what's sin and what's not sin to us. So it's easy to tell why you say you never sinned because sin is defined by you, not God, which since you disregarded His Law, you are free to define the Law for yourself.

So, according to James it was not sin.

According to you not James 1:13-15.

Are you still living in the OT, or are you living in the NT ?

This shows you didn't read my comment, as last time I checked, Hebrews isn't in the Old Testament.

That "truth" would be the truth that can make you free...from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)
If we are under the NT, there is no accidental sin.

Then what is Hebrew 9:7 for?

Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
That is what is required to gain eternal life.

No, faith is Romans 10:9-10

You have forgotten that the truly repentant (of sin) receive the gift o the Holy Ghost, which keeps us keenly aware of what is or is not a sin.

From Got Questions.org
"The apostle Paul clearly taught that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. First Corinthians 12:13 declares, “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” Romans 8:9 tells us that if a person does not possess the Holy Spirit, he or she does not belong to Christ: “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches us that the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation for all those who believe: “Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

Agreed.

Correct !

So you now contradicted yourself, first you said that 1 John 1:8-10 was for those in darkness, but then I pointed that is was to believers, who don't walk in darkness. Are you saying they do now? Which if you do, that contradicts what you said about us believers, once having the Holy Spirit after full repentance, do not sin, sinfulness=darkness as you also said:

Darkness is sinfulness.

Then nobody has fellowship with God or Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:6)
I am glad you are wrong, and that some men actually do "turn from" sin.

Think again, we are all sinners as that is what the carnal state of the flesh we are living in everyday. Until we are taken from this body to the next, we are only righteous because of the blood covering our sins.

Paul's citings from the OT were made to show the Law keeping Jews that the Law was not sufficient to get them eternal life.
The Jews needed a Redeemer as much as the Gentiles did.

While true, it doesn't negate the fact that all have sinned.

You have bought the devil's lies.
What good did Jesus' suffering and death do if we are still servants of sin ?

A sinner saved by grace isn't a servant of sin, hence the process of sanctification, which lasts for a lifetime as we are in this flesh for this life, then we'll be free from not only the stain & power of sin, but also from it's presence. You're fighting a losing battle Hopeful 2.

None are wrong.

The first two do not negate anything I've said, and for the last one, the Amplified version is useful for these instances, because it gives the original Hebrew & Greek connotations and is directly translated word-for-word and context of the original language and writing style

1 John 5:18
We know [with confidence] that anyone born of God does not habitually sin; but He (Jesus) who was born of God [carefully] keeps and protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Don't know what you're talking about, still doesn't change the fact that I refuted your understanding. I mere took what you said here:
And plugged in "Luke 24:54-62" into google, and Got my answer. It's ok to admit you made a mistake, it saves your credibility.

There is no Luke 24:54.
Your next post cited Luke 22:54-62, which made a lot more sense.
But it was still before Peter's reception of the Holy Ghost.
He sinned while unconverted.

Dictates are a form of saying, you said it, so I just used a synonym.

OK.
I think more of "giving orders" when I see the word.

Who cares about if it wasn't sinful to me, I'm not the standard God is. This is the flaw in your theology, that we can define what's sin and what's not sin to us. So it's easy to tell why you say you never sinned because sin is defined by you, not God, which since you disregarded His Law, you are free to define the Law for yourself.

If it is a sin to you, it is a sin to you.
But charging a 5 year old with murder is ludicrous.

According to you not James 1:13-15.

James 1:14-15.

This shows you didn't read my comment, as last time I checked, Hebrews isn't in the Old Testament.

The Hebrews quote was from the OT.

Then what is Hebrew 9:7 for?

It is a recounting of the OT ways.

No, faith is Romans 10:9-10

You change the subject.
I didn't mentioned "faith".

From Got Questions.org
"The apostle Paul clearly taught that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. First Corinthians 12:13 declares, “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.”

The baptism of the Holy Spirit will only occur after a true repentance from sin.
If you want to equate reception of, or belief in, Christ with reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost, I can't agree with you.

Romans 8:9 tells us that if a person does not possess the Holy Spirit, he or she does not belong to Christ: “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”

Agreed.
But remember, the Holy Spirit will not reside in a polluted temple.
Again repentance from sin and the washing away of past sins at baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins must first occur.

Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches us that the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation for all those who believe: “Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

The seal of the inheritance will be lost if one rebels against God.
His seal can be broken by our actions.

So you now contradicted yourself, first you said that 1 John 1:8-10 was for those in darkness, but then I pointed that is was to believers, who don't walk in darkness.

Believers don't walk in sin/darkness.
They walk in the light/God in whom is no darkness.

Are you saying they do now? Which if you do, that contradicts what you said about us believers, once having the Holy Spirit after full repentance, do not sin, sinfulness=darkness as you also said:

I can separate "believer" from "sinner".
You don't seem to be able to see a difference.

Think again, we are all sinners as that is what the carnal state of the flesh we are living in everyday. Until we are taken from this body to the next, we are only righteous because of the blood covering our sins.

Why not do it now ?
Get water baptized into Christ's death and burial and get raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ! (Rom 6:3-4)
Crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts, and walk as Jesus walked ! (Gal 5:24)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:4)
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Gal 5:16)
Walking in the Spirit precluded sin.
Thanks be to God !

While true, it doesn't negate the fact that all have sinned.

Most have sinned, but we don't have to keep on sinning.
Jesus freed us from the devil, the flesh, and the Law.

A sinner saved by grace isn't a servant of sin, hence the process of sanctification, which lasts for a lifetime as we are in this flesh for this life, then we'll be free from not only the stain & power of sin, but also from it's presence. You're fighting a losing battle Hopeful 2.

Anyone who commits a sin is a servant of sin...according to Jesus in John 8:34.

The first two do not negate anything I've said, and for the last one, the Amplified version is useful for these instances, because it gives the original Hebrew & Greek connotations and is directly translated word-for-word and context of the original language and writing style
1 John 5:18
We know [with confidence] that anyone born of God does not habitually sin; but He (Jesus) who was born of God [carefully] keeps and protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

I'ld get rid of what ever source you use.
It enables sin.
There is no "habitual" in the bible I use.
Besides. if one never actually quits committing sin, isn't every sin habitual ?
If it never stops, it is habitual.
A true repentance from sin will garner a life without sin.

 

[Corinth77777]

That doesn't really make any sense......

It does, because people perish because of lack of knowledge.
And people do not always come to what they could because of that same reason.
The harvest is ripe but laborers are said to be few.

It is our choice on whether or not to be perfectly obedient to God.

Those that have found the escape have already made their choice.

Jesus did the "jumping" for us.
Our freedom from sin is His legacy.

Of course.

It is our choice of whether or not to flourish or be cast away.

How can that be, as it is the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus that makes us free from the law of sin and death ? (Ro 8:2)
How is that a natural law ?

I see that transformation happening instantly, at one's rebirth from God's seed.

An apple seed has no choice but to be an apple tree, and God's seed has no choice but to bear Godly fruit.

I have no idea what that means.

Because it is of this natural, fallen, world.

Yes, it is...especially since afterward this is written..."and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

OK.

 

[Corinth77777]

That doesn't really make any sense......

It is our choice on whether or not to be perfectly obedient to God.

Those that have found the escape have already made their choice.

That's not always true.
For example We are told to grow in grace.
However why do many not grow- Because as said earlier Humans are at the mercy of our own ideals. Like the ideal that many who believe Jesus died, rose, and gave them the Spirit believe He does it all so they do nothing, even as nothing with Him. So where does that leave spiritual growth? It leaves Mean people.

Jesus did the "jumping" for us.
Our freedom from sin is His legacy.

Of course.

It is our choice of whether or not to flourish or be cast away.

How can that be, as it is the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus that makes us free from the law of sin and death ? (Ro 8:2)
How is that a natural law ?

I see that transformation happening instantly, at one's rebirth from God's seed.

An apple seed has no choice but to be an apple tree, and God's seed has no choice but to bear Godly fruit.

I have no idea what that means.

Because it is of this natural, fallen, world.

Yes, it is...especially since afterward this is written..."and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

OK.

 

[Corinth77777]

That doesn't really make any sense......

It is our choice on whether or not to be perfectly obedient to God.

Those that have found the escape have already made their choice.

Jesus did the "jumping" for us.
Our freedom from sin is His legacy.

I said:

For example: if you know of the board came checkers. Sometimes you don't have no other move with one checker until your opponent must jump your other men. Now your checker has a way of escape. So its not in bondage because a way of escape was made.

Of course.

It is our choice of whether or not to flourish or be cast away.

How can that be, as it is the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus that makes us free from the law of sin and death ? (Ro 8:2)
How is that a natural law ?

I see that transformation happening instantly, at one's rebirth from God's seed.

An apple seed has no choice but to be an apple tree, and God's seed has no choice but to bear Godly fruit.

I have no idea what that means.

Because it is of this natural, fallen, world.

Yes, it is...especially since afterward this is written..."and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

OK.

That doesn't really make any sense......

It is our choice on whether or not to be perfectly obedient to God.

Those that have found the escape have already made their choice.

Jesus did the "jumping" for us.
Our freedom from sin is His legacy.

Of course.

It is our choice of whether or not to flourish or be cast away.

Yes, and where are choices made from?
As said earlier We are at the mercy of our own Ideals.

How can that be, as it is the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus that makes us free from the law of sin and death ? (Ro 8:2)
How is that a natural law ?

I see that transformation happening instantly, at one's rebirth from God's seed.

An apple seed has no choice but to be an apple tree, and God's seed has no choice but to bear Godly fruit.

I have no idea what that means.

Because it is of this natural, fallen, world.

Yes, it is...especially since afterward this is written..."and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

OK.

 

[Corinth77777]

That doesn't really make any sense......

It is our choice on whether or not to be perfectly obedient to God.

Those that have found the escape have already made their choice.

Jesus did the "jumping" for us.
Our freedom from sin is His legacy.

Of course.

It is our choice of whether or not to flourish or be cast away.

How can that be, as it is the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus that makes us free from the law of sin and death ? (Ro 8:2)
How is that a natural law ?

I said:
"Well you are putting 2 diff passages together that I do not believe mean the same thing..The law of the life giving Spirit is a natural law,"

Meaning the natural law keeps its perishon, comes to what it suppose to be as long as it meets certain conditions. As I explained with the example of a seed of a flowering plant.

If you recall way back you put 2 scriptures together that were not the same.
....
I call it a natural law, one of Spirit nature,for if one is in Christ then you grow to His likeness, eating from, by obeying His word.

Thought:
Can a person who has no knowlegde of all that another may have be judged for it? It's his conscience that will accuse or excuse Him.

Thought:
So can a person be in Christ and be stunted in their Spiritual life because they are at the mercy of their own ideals?

Or is Christ merely in him?

Were the Corinthians in Christ? Or was Christ merely in them?


Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Thought:
Isn't it one conscience before God that is a issue.

I see that transformation happening instantly, at one's rebirth from God's seed.

that's good you see that.

An apple seed has no choice but to be an apple tree, and God's seed has no choice but to bear Godly fruit.

Why do not all apple seeds become apple trees then?

I have no idea what that means.

Because it is of this natural, fallen, world.

Yes, it is...especially since afterward this is written..."and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

OK.

 

[Corinth77777]

That doesn't really make any sense......

It is our choice on whether or not to be perfectly obedient to God.

Those that have found the escape have already made their choice.

Jesus did the "jumping" for us.
Our freedom from sin is His legacy.

Of course.

It is our choice of whether or not to flourish or be cast away.

How can that be, as it is the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus that makes us free from the law of sin and death ? (Ro 8:2)
How is that a natural law ?

I see that transformation happening instantly, at one's rebirth from God's seed.

An apple seed has no choice but to be an apple tree, and God's seed has no choice but to bear Godly fruit.

I have no idea what that means.

Because it is of this natural, fallen, world.

Yes, it is...especially since afterward this is written..."and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

What I meant is the one scripture is not the same as the other scripture. They don't have the same meaning but one can lead to the other.

OK.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It does, because people perish because of lack of knowledge.

OK, like one not knowing they can live without sinning, so continues to sin, and is destroyed in the end.
I see it now.

And people do not always come to what they could because of that same reason.
The harvest is ripe but laborers are said to be few.

I don't feel that God will let anyone who wants to know Him "slip through the cracks".

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's not always true.
For example We are told to grow in grace.
However why do many not grow- Because as said earlier Humans are at the mercy of our own ideals. Like the ideal that many who believe Jesus died, rose, and gave them the Spirit believe He does it all so they do nothing, even as nothing with Him. So where does that leave spiritual growth? It leaves Mean people.

I can't conflate obeying God with growing in grace.
Even the newest convert can say no to temptation.
Especially with the fact that nobody is ever tempted above what they can handle.
1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, and where are choices made from?
As said earlier We are at the mercy of our own Ideals.

Choices are the answer to options.
Lie, or tell the truth.
Steal, or either buy or live without.
Commit adultery, or live monogamously or celibately.
Those choices are based on what our heart is set on.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I said:
"Well you are putting 2 diff passages together that I do not believe mean the same thing..The law of the life giving Spirit is a natural law,"
Meaning the natural law keeps its perishon, comes to what it suppose to be as long as it meets certain conditions. As I explained with the example of a seed of a flowering plant.
If you recall way back you put 2 scriptures together that were not the same.

Some times different scriptures can over-lap.
Jesus used that principle many times with His parables.
"Seed" means the word of God in one place, and the actual seed of God in another.
"Sea" can mean a body of water one place, but a crowd of people in another.

I call it a natural law, one of Spirit nature, for if one is in Christ then you grow to His likeness, eating from, by obeying His word.

If one is "in Christ" he started out "like Christ".
Our rebirth is from the same seed Jesus was gendered from.

Thought:
Can a person who has no knowlegde of all that another may have be judged for it?

Nope.

It's his conscience that will accuse or excuse Him.

Yep.
Which should apply to your "kitten" episode.

Thought:
So can a person be in Christ and be stunted in their Spiritual life because they are at the mercy of their own ideals?

Nope.
Their "ideals" will be Christ's ideals.
We have one mind.
A differing mind is the sign that one is not "in Christ".

Or is Christ merely in him?
Were the Corinthians in Christ? Or was Christ merely in them?

The sinners were not "in Christ".
As it is written in 1 John 1:5, there is no darkness (sin) in God.
So those walking in darkness (sin) are not in God.

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

God is able to make us all stand.

Thought:
Isn't it one conscience before God that is a issue.

Sure.

that's good you see that.

That is puzzling, as you don't see it that way.
You infer an eventual transformation.

Why do not all apple seeds become apple trees then?

In the context of parable and teaching, they all do become apple trees.
They cannot ever become fig trees.

 

[Hopeful 2]

What I meant is the one scripture is not the same as the other scripture. They don't have the same meaning but one can lead to the other.

Over-lapping sentiments...

 

[Corinth77777]

GOOD

Even the newest convert can say no to temptation.
Especially with the fact that nobody is ever tempted above what they can handle.
1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

 

[Corinth77777]

I can't conflate obeying God with growing in grace.
Even the newest convert can say no to temptation.
Especially with the fact that nobody is ever tempted above what they can handle.
1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

So I never thought about this: You are saying Peter was not converted when He denied Christ? And
Peter was not converted when He ate with the Gentiles?
So when the Hebrews were told to labor to enter God's rest they had yet to be converted. So when Abraham slept with His Maid servent He was not yet converted? I have to look into these.

Back to discussion:
Growing in grace in this one way has to do with how we relate to God.
Outcome:
Jesus said He alway did what was pleasing(im sure that included his obedience) to the father and His father never left Him alone.

But Jesus also learned obedience, even unto death.
Now my only question to you is how did He learn obedience ?

Im taking a look at this passage:
By grace are ye saved through faith and this not of yourself but a gift from God. EPH 2:8

Now if in that passage the grace is being quickened together with Christ. THEN WE NOW HAVE SOMEONE TO LOOK TO.
Now St John 3:16... whosoever believes in him (my words: continues to believe) should not perish but have everlasting life.

The power that we then feed on is Life (back in the garden)

FOR ME THIS IS LIKE: When you believe then Jesus is in you, Just a thought: but the 2nd part is walking in what you say you believe which is Trust, then you are in Him. Jesus ate from every word that proceeded from the mouth of God.

So I asked God recently what it meant to put away the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit and I think I've got my answer. The location.

Anyway enough of my rambling tks for the discussion


Everyday we get up to breathe is another day of grace to live for God.
There is Grace in Christ as well to do what we cannot do in our own ability.
......
From this discussion this is what I'm going to look into
Meaning of a Convert, The statement Christ in you the HOPE of Glory.

To be able to explain something I have said.
Christ is in you but are you in Christ.

 

[Corinth77777]

Some times different scriptures can over-lap.
Jesus used that principle many times with His parables.
"Seed" means the word of God in one place, and the actual seed of God in another.
"Sea" can mean a body of water one place, but a crowd of people in another.

If one is "in Christ" he started out "like Christ".
Our rebirth is from the same seed Jesus was gendered from.

Nope.

Yep.
Which should apply to your "kitten" episode.

Nope.
Their "ideals" will be Christ's ideals.
We have one mind.
A differing mind is the sign that one is not "in Christ".

The sinners were not "in Christ".
As it is written in 1 John 1:5, there is no darkness (sin) in God.
So those walking in darkness (sin) are not in God.

God is able to make us all stand.

Sure.

That is puzzling, as you don't see it that way.
You infer an eventual transformation.

We are at the mercy of our own Ideals. And scripture does say
be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

I always saw transformation as sanctification growth in righteousness as we obey God sanctifying ourself by the word.

Maybe You are passed where Paul was when He said He had not obtained but presses on toward the Mark.....


Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

In the context of parable and teaching, they all do become apple trees.
They cannot ever become fig trees.