Is repentance needed for salvation?

[Hopeful 2]

So I never thought about this: You are saying Peter was not converted when He denied Christ?

That is right, as he didn't yet have the gift of the Holy Ghost which is given to the truly repentant

And
Peter was not converted when He ate with the Gentiles?

I see no sin in going out of one's way to host visitors.
Do you put out the good towels and the good plates when you have company ?
If you do, aren't you doing the same thing Peter did ?
Making concessions for visitors isn't a sin

So when the Hebrews were told to labor to enter God's rest they had yet to be converted.

I'm not familiar with that episode.
Did Jesus say it ?
Where ?
All Christians must "labor" to manifest Christs' life, and death, each day we walk among the unconverted.
Even a slight slip could be our undoing.

So when Abraham slept with His Maid servent He was not yet converted? I have to look into these.

The OT characters were still walking in and after the flesh.
Besides, without a Law saying such and such was evil, it isn't evil.
The NT folks have all shed the flesh and all walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh.

Back to discussion:
Growing in grace in this one way has to do with how we relate to God.
Outcome:
Jesus said He alway did what was pleasing(im sure that included his obedience) to the father and His father never left Him alone.

Can't we say the same ?
We should be thanking God everyday that we can.

But Jesus also learned obedience, even unto death.
Now my only question to you is how did He learn obedience ?

Place a demand on someone and they will either learn obedience or rebellion to the giver of the demand.
Jesus learned obedience by submitting to His Father.

Im taking a look at this passage:
By grace are ye saved through faith and this not of yourself but a gift from God. EPH 2:8
Now if in that passage the grace is being quickened together with Christ.

Why would God's grace need quickening ?

THEN WE NOW HAVE SOMEONE TO LOOK TO.
Now St John 3:16... whosoever believes in him (my words: continues to believe) should not perish but have everlasting life.

Agreed.

The power that we then feed on is Life (back in the garden)

Quit philosophizing.

FOR ME THIS IS LIKE: When you believe, then Jesus is in you,

(I added a comma after "believe" so it made sense.)
It takes more than belief to usher Christ into you.
You have to be (water) baptized into Him.

Just a thought: but the 2nd part is walking in what you say you believe which is Trust, then you are in Him. Jesus ate from every word that proceeded from the mouth of God.

So I asked God recently what it meant to put away the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit and I think I've got my answer. The location.

Was that His answer ?
You put away the deeds of the flesh by crucifying the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Anyway enough of my rambling tks for the discussion
Everyday we get up to breathe is another day of grace to live for God.
There is Grace in Christ as well to do what we cannot do in our own ability.
......
From this discussion this is what I'm going to look into
Meaning of a Convert, The statement Christ in you the HOPE of Glory.

To be able to explain something I have said.
Christ is in you but are you in Christ.

We are one, as Jesus and His Father were/are one.

 

[Hopeful 2]

We are at the mercy of our own Ideals. And scripture does say
be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

We will act according to our own beliefs.
My mind was renewed when the rest of me was reborn of God's seed.
I continue to grow in grace and knowledge from that point of renewal.

I always saw transformation as sanctification growth in righteousness as we obey God sanctifying ourself by the word.

Those reborn of God start out sanctified.

Maybe You are passed where Paul was when He said He had not obtained but presses on toward the Mark.....Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Nope, I still await the resurrection of the dead, (v11), and the glorified body, (v21), Paul wrote about in Phil 3.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on Lordship Salvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject.



The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matthew 7:13-23).



Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.



This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.

The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation



There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.



What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.



First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.



Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.



Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.



Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.



Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.



Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.



Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.



Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.



Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.



Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.



This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations.

 

[Corinth77777]

That is right, as he didn't yet have the gift of the Holy Ghost which is given to the truly repentant

I see no sin in going out of one's way to host visitors.
Do you put out the good towels and the good plates when you have company ?

Im refering to a specific passage

If you do, aren't you doing the same thing Peter did ?
Making concessions for visitors isn't a sin

I'm not familiar with that episode.
Did Jesus say it ?
Where ?

Hebrews

All Christians must "labor" to manifest Christs' life, and death, each day we walk among the unconverted.
Even a slight slip could be our undoing.

The OT characters were still walking in and after the flesh.
Besides, without a Law saying such and such was evil, it isn't evil.
The NT folks have all shed the flesh and all walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh.

Can't we say the same ?
We should be thanking God everyday that we can.

So where is this conflated with grace?

Place a demand on someone and they will either learn obedience or rebellion to the giver of the demand.
Jesus learned obedience by submitting to His Father.

Tks 4 answering

Why would God's grace need quickening ?

Thats not what I said

Agreed.

Quit philosophizing.

(I added a comma after "believe" so it made sense.)
It takes more than belief to usher Christ into you.
You have to be (water) baptized into Him.

I could say the same "quit philosophizing"

Was that His answer ?
You put away the deeds of the flesh by crucifying the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Had to do with location

We are one, as Jesus and His Father were/are one.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Im refering to a specific passage

Which passage ?

Hebrews

Can you narrow it down a bit ?

So where is this conflated with grace?

I can't say that it is.

Tks 4 answering

Glad to answer when I can.

Thats not what I said

It seemed like it was.
Lets rephrase your sentence...
You wrote..."Now if in that passage the grace is being quickened together with Christ."
Did you mean..."Now the grace, in that passage, is being quickened with Christ." ?
Truly, hearing is a lot more conducive to communication than reading.

I could say the same "quit philosophizing"

LOL...OK.

Had to do with location

Explain the revelation, please.

 

[GodsGrace]

What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on Lordship Salvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject.



The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matthew 7:13-23).



Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.



This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.

The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation



There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

I agree with all of the above.
Could you expound more on item no. 4?

(4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation;

What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.



First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.



Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.



Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.



Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.



Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.



Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.



Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.



Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.



Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.



Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.



This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations.

Although not in favor of reformed theology,
the above are 100% correct for any denomination that is teaching what Jesus taught.
(and not washed down, as you've stated).

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Corinth77777]

Which passage ?

Gal2:11

Can you narrow it down a bit ?

Hebrews4:9

I can't say that it is?

You did earlier.

Glad to answer when I can.

It seemed like it was.
Lets rephrase your sentence...
You wrote..."Now if in that passage the grace is being quickened together with Christ."
Did you mean..."Now the grace, in that passage, is being quickened with Christ." ?

Yes, grace is not only unmerited favor but, God doing what we
Cannot do in our own ability.

Truly, hearing is a lot more conducive to communication than reading.

LOL...OK.

Explain the revelation, please.

Well the location is in Christ, a relationship.

Jesus was tempted after fasting, I believe He prepared Himself for the challenges He would have. While the Holy Spirit convicts us, one still has to have the power to overcome.
So where did the power come from? His relationship. Yes God is our helper. But it was a test that He had needed to go through. Why? Maybe, to prove His Loyalty and other reasons. He lived off every word of God, but How? Why would anyone obey the word of God? because His words are life sustaining. Jesus had a relationship and knew this. For God said He was well pleased with Him. Jesus himself said He always did what was pleasing to the father and His father never left Him alone. So his souce of power to overcome Satin was in God. (Life in God)
Who is God? Spirit; unbodily personal power.

Added note: because He had the ability and did not sin, it proved His nature. Or where He came from.

As Adam must have proved something about His- for in Adam we all die.

Which beggs the question: why did Adam Fall?

 

[Corinth77777]

About Peters conversion

[Now, as a result of the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, Peter had experienced the “conversion” which Jesus referred to when, on the night before the crucifixion he said to him, “When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” (Luke 22:32) This was not a conversion from sin to righteousness, but a conversion from one viewpoint to another. Peter held to the common human viewpoint that only evildoers should suffer, and he knew that Jesus was not an evildoer, so he tried to save his life. Now he knew that the plan of human redemption called for the suffering and death of those counted as righteous in God’s sight, and that it was the divine will that the holy and perfect Jesus should voluntarily submit to being put to death by his enemies. What a conversion of understanding this was!]

The Conversion of Peter

The Conversion of Peter, an article from the Christian Life and Doctrine section of The Dawn Magazine, August 2012

www.dawnbible.com

Conversion defined
the process of changing or causing something to change from one form to another.

So Peter was converted when? Matthew 16:18 his nane was changed ...
You say that Jesus had yet died to send the Holy Spirit, But who is Jesus that Peter LEFT everything to follow, to you?

[Ihave put together these passages from the Gospels, that we may have before us, at one view, all the steps in that "conversion," or restoration of Peter's soul, of which they speak to us. Conversion, in Scripture, is not by any means always the first grand turning of the soul to God, but is the term used for any turning from sin also, into which even as converted (in the ordinary sense now) the soul may have got. Peter long before this had been converted (that is, in the sense of being born again,) as is plain by the Lord's words in Matthew16. He had had Christ revealed to him by the Father, and had believed that revelation — was a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus. The conversion the Lord speaks of is his restoration of soul after the denial of his Lord and Master.]

Peter's "Conversion"

 As to my original thought of why I state to my cohort, "Christ is in us but are we in Him," And Why it's belief on who Jesus is with intent to follow that one receives His Spirit is because my thought is
That the latter conversion is as the writer says, a soul change.
And for me this is what it meant to grow in grace and in knowledge of our savior Jesus Christ. For Knowledge has to do with relationship. For scripture says: and this is eternal life- that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ who you have sent (Don't quote me..off top of my head)

The key is to remain in His love: His teachings, his commands, His word. (Now here come my philosophizing, lol) As i think I may have said earlier eating from the tree of life to be in the will of God. My thoughts...

Doesn't mean I can't be wrong in many things I have said. For I am sure I've been wrong many times in my life.

Christ is in us the Hope of Glory, so it seems its about loyality unto death.

For the will of the father is that everyone who looks to the son and believes in him will have life and be raised on the last day.
So key to me is to maintain our relationship with the father walking by the living word.

THis is how I see this passage but It can mean "author" instead of source: Sense Christ is the source of salvation to all who believe, I believe He is the source of life.
I believe it is life we need before we die. Getting life into us now while on earth will be a smooth transition into the next.

"Herein is that love perfect in us, that we should have boldness in the day of judgment: for as he is, even so are we in this world."

Jesus is alive- and God is not the God of the dead but the living.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Gal2:11

Too much time has passed for me to comment.

Hebrews4:9

Same here, as the gist of your post are long gone.

You did earlier.

Too long ago to comment.

Yes, grace is not only unmerited favor but, God doing what we
Cannot do in our own ability.

OK.

Well the location is in Christ, a relationship.

Yes.

Jesus was tempted after fasting, I believe He prepared Himself for the challenges He would have. While the Holy Spirit convicts us, one still has to have the power to overcome.
So where did the power come from? His relationship. Yes God is our helper. But it was a test that He had needed to go through. Why? Maybe, to prove His Loyalty and other reasons. He lived off every word of God, but How? Why would anyone obey the word of God? because His words are life sustaining. Jesus had a relationship and knew this. For God said He was well pleased with Him. Jesus himself said He always did what was pleasing to the father and His father never left Him alone. So his souce of power to overcome Satin was in God. (Life in God)
Who is God? Spirit; unbodily personal power.

Added note: because He had the ability and did not sin, it proved His nature. Or where He came from.

As Adam must have proved something about His- for in Adam we all die.

Aren't you glad we have a new, divine nature, after rebirth from God's seed ?
I sure am.

Which beggs the question: why did Adam Fall?

Make a new thread.

 

[reddogs]

So if the "turn from" isn't from sin, God won't hear us...right ? (1 Peter 3:12)

The sin remains, that does not stop Gods work of helping us to break what binds us in iniquity.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The sin remains, that does not stop Gods work of helping us to break what binds us in iniquity.

Why would any sin remain ?
After Peter commanded repentance, he commanded baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin. (Acts 2:38)
Once a sinner quits sinning, (repentance from sin), and is washed of past sins, he is sanctified to host the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[reddogs]

What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on Lordship Salvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject.



The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matthew 7:13-23).



Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.



This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.

The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation



There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.



What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.



First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.



Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.



Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.



Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.



Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.



Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.



Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.



Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.



Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.



Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.



This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations.

The thing is, we still have to choose and that is basically from freewill....

 

[Josef]

What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on Lordship Salvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject.



The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matthew 7:13-23).



Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.



This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.

The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation



There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.



What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.



First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.



Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.



Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.



Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.



Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.



Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.



Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.



Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.



Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.



Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.



This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations.

Hey All,
Good stuff here Alfred Persson. Thanks for sharing.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Why would any sin remain ?
After Peter commanded repentance, he commanded baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin. (Acts 2:38)
Once a sinner quits sinning, (repentance from sin), and is washed of past sins, he is sanctified to host the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Hey All,
Do you leave your car in a mud pit when you wash it clean? Or do you pull it out of the pit first? Jesus saves while we are still sinners. We realize this when we have "ears to hear" what the Holy Spirit is telling us.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We, then, ask for forgiveness because we now can understand what salvation truly means. (By grace through faith in Jesus) We understand it because it has happened to us. This process is the gift of God.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We repent, and start to move ourselves into alignment with the Holy Spirit, who now dwells within us. Our response is to what has happened; and not to make it happen.

Think also about the parable of the sower.
(Luke 8:5-8)
The seed that fell on "good ground" grew and bore fruit. So the ground made the difference. Why? What made it "good ground?" The good ground had been prepared, by the sower, to receive the seed. The seed had nothing to do with any of the circumstances. The seed has one job; to grow where it is planted.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

The thing is, we still have to choose and that is basically from freewill....

The thing is, we still have to choose and that is basically from freewill....

Hey All,
How can we choose what we do not understand? How do we even begin to acquire understanding?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

After we have been given "ears to hear" what the Holy Spirit is telling us, we begin to understand what salvation means. Is that free will? Do you use free will to understand that 1+2=2?
Our thoughts do not cause 1+1 to = 2. We, then, are just agreeing with what is obviously already true.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
Do you leave your car in a mud pit when you wash it clean? Or do you pull it out of the pit first? Jesus saves while we are still sinners. We realize this when we have "ears to hear" what the Holy Spirit is telling us.

Of course.
But after the "car" is clean we don't drive back into the mud !
Jesus saves us while we are still sinners, but if He is now our new Lord, we won't serve any other master.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

That is the first step to salvation...hearing about salvation.

We, then, ask for forgiveness because we now can understand what salvation truly means. (By grace through faith in Jesus) We understand it because it has happened to us. This process is the gift of God.

I'ld hate to think you are trying to serve two lords. (Matt 6:24)

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We repent, and start to move ourselves into alignment with the Holy Spirit, who now dwells within us. Our response is to what has happened; and not to make it happen.
Think also about the parable of the sower.
(Luke 8:5-8)
The seed that fell on "good ground" grew and bore fruit. So the ground made the difference. Why? What made it "good ground?" The good ground had been prepared, by the sower, to receive the seed. The seed had nothing to do with any of the circumstances. The seed has one job; to grow where it is planted.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course.
But after the "car" is clean we don't drive back into the mud !
Jesus saves us while we are still sinners, but if He is now our new Lord, we won't serve any other master.

That is the first step to salvation...hearing about salvation.

I'ld hate to think you are trying to serve two lords. (Matt 6:24)

Maybe it's not like driving the car back into the mud.
Maybe it's more like picking up some dust while driving and then you just give it a quick wash.

No one can serve 2 lords.
No grey area I faith and which lord we serve.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Maybe it's not like driving the car back into the mud.
Maybe it's more like picking up some dust while driving and then you just give it a quick wash.

As "mud" was a picture of sin, your redefinition of it only serves the disobedient

No one can serve 2 lords.
No grey area I faith and which lord we serve.

Serve God, or serve sin.
Those are the only two options.

 

[GodsGrace]

As "mud" was a picture of sin, your redefinition of it only serves the disobedient

Serve God, or serve sin.
Those are the only two options.

My redefinition is how the world works.
I know you don't accept this.

As to serving:
According to your definition,
If I'm serving God then I never sin.

If I'm serving satan then I'm sinning every moment of the day.

It's not a matter of sinning Hopeful, it's a matter of WHO you belong to.
No one NEVER SINS
and No one SINS CONSTANTLY.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Galatians 2:26
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
2 Timothy 3:14-15
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.


We're saved through faith and trust and belief.
This will lead us to a righteous life, not a perfectly sinless life.
The Apostles did not teach this.

Even the history of baptism does not help you to understand,
which it should.

 

[Hopeful 2]

My redefinition is how the world works.
I know you don't accept this.

I am not "of this world".
Are you ?
I hope not !

As to serving:
According to your definition,
If I'm serving God then I never sin.

Correct, as no man can serve two masters (Matt 6:24)

If I'm serving satan then I'm sinning every moment of the day.

That would appear to be the case.
If you are not serving God, you are not serving God every moment of the day.

It's not a matter of sinning Hopeful, it's a matter of WHO you belong to.
No one NEVER SINS
and No one SINS CONSTANTLY.

Everyone either walks in the "flesh" or in the Spirit constantly.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Galatians 2:26
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
2 Timothy 3:14-15
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

We're saved through faith and trust and belief.

If one isn't free from sin, where is the faith, trust, and belief ?

This will lead us to a righteous life, not a perfectly sinless life.
The Apostles did not teach this.

Is there really a difference between "righteous" and "free from sin" ?
I can't think of any righteous sins.

Even the history of baptism does not help you to understand,
which it should.

Would that be water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?
Or the baptism of the Holy Ghost for repenting of sin and getting baptized in Jesus' name ?
Or are you referring to one of the other baptism's in scripture ?

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)