Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

[JLB]

Jesus said, you that have followed me will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes. Nothing about judas being predestinated to do that. Judas was predestinated to be the son of perdition, it was prophesied of hi before he ever born. He had no choice not to be born the son of perdition.

Do you believe any of the 12 were destined to reign with Christ in the age to come?

Do you understand the significance of sitting on a throne means?


Denying what God's word teaches isnt much of a theological position.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I'd say many Christians are confused. Calvinists are less confused as their doctrine is more systematic.

Ridiculous, Calvinists and non-calvinists understanding comes from the same Bible. Both get some things wrong.


Biblical 'true' from your perspective. I agree that you are not necessarily wrong because I think you are.



http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html ...it's the Baptist confession which came from the WCF and is almost the same. I don't agree with the baptism of babies so I favor the Baptist confession (not a big thing)
WCF: https://bpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/D-ConfessionOfFaith.pdf




Ridiculous ...
Calvinism believes Christ died and rose again. I don't think you mean to say "I do not agree with Calvinism AT ALL."


The question is based on a false premise, possibly indicating again that you don't understand Reformed Theology. Reformed Theology believes in compatibilism, not "TRICKING" people. I've never heard to the doctrine of TRICKING PEOPLE. You don't understand Reformed Theology.

If you want to continue your discussion of Calvinism, then start a thread on it.


This Thread is titled: Is Salvation really a free gift?


Any more posts about Calvinism, Catholicism, Hinduism or any other teaching of man will be deleted.



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

If you want to continue your discussion of Calvinism, then start a thread on it.


This Thread is titled: Is Salvation really a free gift?


Any more posts about Calvinism, Catholicism, Hinduism or any other teaching of man will be deleted.



JLB

The thread "IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?" has posts that mention Calvin/Calvinism. See Posts 9,10,11,15,17,19, 28,29 and 33. Could you please give the same warning to those people.

Thank you

 

[GodsGrace]

The thread "IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?" has posts that mention Calvin/Calvinism. See Posts 9,10,11,15,17,19, 28,29 and 33. Could you please give the same warning to those people.

Thank you

How come you're not on that thread?
I started it for you so we could discuss...

 

[Fastfredy0]

How come you're not on that thread?
I started it for you so we could discuss...

JLB said we shouldn't take about Calvinism (directly) unless the subject is Calvinism. Being true to his word, I assume he will delete your posts on that board that mention Calvinism. See post #402 above.

This Thread is titled: Is Salvation really a free gift?


Any more posts about Calvinism, Catholicism, Hinduism or any other teaching of man will be deleted.

So, you would have to start a new thread like ... "why Calvinism is horrible" or something similar.

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB said we shouldn't take about Calvinism (directly) unless the subject is Calvinism. Being true to his word, I assume he will delete your posts on that board that mention Calvinism. See post #402 above.


So, you would have to start a new thread like ... "why Calvinism is horrible" or something similar.

See you on the other thread FF.
But it's dinner time over here.
Later....

P.S. Just so you understand:

JLB wrote because we're derailing this thread - which is about the free gift of God - salvation.

Also, he really dislikes, and so do I, when we talk about writings that are extra-biblical.
IOW, I should refer to the bible for my beliefs, not a catechism book such as the WCF or the Baptist CF.
Problem is: When speaking to one of the reformed faith, we always end up discussing a person instead of
biblical verses. (such as Macarthur or Piper or Calvin, etc.).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Also, he really dislikes, and so do I, when we talk about writings that are extra-biblical.
IOW, I should refer to the bible for my beliefs, not a catechism book such as the WCF or the Baptist CF.

Well, I hear you. I only mention the WCF when asked for what Reformed people teach as that is the ultimate authority for that group of people. I won't even mention official Reformed theology teachings if not asked about it.

I would be happy not to mention peoples opinions that I agree with, but when I do you and this site insist I say where the quote came from. The fact that this site insists you mention your source validates the idea that extra-biblical writings are acceptable or the site is hypocritical.
The use of extra-biblical sources is itself biblical as the bible says people are given the gift of teaching (Romans 12:6-8; 1 Cor. 12:28) and the object of this teaching is to convey biblical information to people. Thus, the request to not use extra-biblical resources is an anti BIBLICAL request. Ideally, for validation, extra-biblical information should have biblical references.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you believe any of the 12 were destined to reign with Christ in the age to come?

Do you understand the significance of sitting on a throne means?


Denying what God's word teaches isnt much of a theological position.




JLB

I deny Judas was destined for that reign. He was destined for hell as the son of perdition !

 

[JLB]

I deny Judas was destined for that reign. He was destined for hell as the son of perdition !

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Again, the question is...


Do you believe any of the 12 were destined to reign with Christ in the age to come?

Do you understand the significance of sitting on a throne means?





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Again, the question is...


Do you believe any of the 12 were destined to reign with Christ in the age to come?

Do you understand the significance of sitting on a throne means?





JLB

I believe judas was an exception, predestined to be lost. Jesus singled him out as an exception to the rest of the twelve Jn 17:12


While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus was probably referring to this scripture Ps 109:8

Let his days be few, And let another take his office.

Do you remember someone took his place Acts 1:16-20

16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Did you know scripture being fulfilled is predestination ?

 

[JLB]

I believe judas was an exception, predestined to be lost. Jesus singled him out as an exception to the rest of the twelve Jn 17:12


While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus was probably referring to this scripture Ps 109:8

Let his days be few, And let another take his office.

Do you remember someone took his place Acts 1:16-20

16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Did you know scripture being fulfilled is predestination ?

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


For the third time, I asking you a direct question, please answer me.


Do you believe any of the 12 were destined to reign with Christ in the age to come?

Do you understand the significance of sitting on a throne means?




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


For the third time, I asking you a direct question, please answer me.


Do you believe any of the 12 were destined to reign with Christ in the age to come?

Do you understand the significance of sitting on a throne means?




JLB

I answered you, and Im through with it sir.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh Sahu You are putting the cart before the horse. You have to be saved first before becoming a true disciple. Jesus will then give you the grace to follow him. For the fact that someone is attending Church services and is active with Church and charity work does not qualify them as a disciple of Jesus Christ. First, experience salvation, then become a disciple.

" the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7.

You can have free entry into a university but you must do the hard work of studying to graduate. That does not mean you worked for your admission, does it?

Dear Couppy, Do you see anywhere , Father God , or Christ Jesus or any of the Prophets mention even once , we can be saved by Grace through Faith , as is popularly taught . In fact the architect of human salvation, Jesus Christ never mentioned Grace in His ministry. Somebody said He wanted to teach another Apostle( Paul) to teach grace . But what about thousands of people Jesus taught in His ministry . Thousands may have never gotten a chance to hear the word Grace in their lives. Why didnt He teach the true doctrine of salvation ( as is being rampantly preached now) that we are saved by Grace through Faith and not by works?
I feel terrible for the man who died on the cross, for his redemptive teaching did not revolve around Grace but around Obedience and LOVE. Reference Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 5:40-44, Matthew 7:12, a thought which John echoes in 1John 4:8, 1 John 4:16 ( nobody who does not love will be saved on the last daywarns John)
The unheeded words/ caveat of Christ( about Love) however took their toll on the Goats, the Christians who merely believed , but did not practice loving compassion and were rejected on the last day by the Messiah, a day we will all have to go through, " Saved" or " Unsaved" . Nobody is safe till the Judge announces His verdict on that day.
Did Jesus know this will happen ?
Sure He did. He knew Genesis to Revelation even before He had founded the world with Father God ( John 1:1-3)
He knew that there will be many Goats who will use excuses to not obey ( practice Loving kindness), and that is why He showed us the future day scene from ( an event waiting to happen) in which he will reject every christian ( and others) who did not pratcise loving kindness.
Jesus therefore quoted words of Father God in Matthew 13:13-15
This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled" the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I ( God) would heal them"

Since both Father and Son mention this I'm convinced they didn't want to save many but only the few who like the idol worshipper and part pagan the Good Sanaritan went out of their way to practice loving kindness. That then was the TRUE GRACE that would finally save a person.
Thus will also once again come true Chriats words " For many are called but few are Chosen" .... And these chosen ones are the Sheep ( the ones who bot bbn only believed but also obeyed) in the future event of Goats as nd Sheep vision Jesus showed us in Matthew 25:31-46.
Even though all this was destined to happen even before Jesus created the er world, I still feel terribly sad for those brothers who look for excuses to skirt around the Clarion call of the savior of obedience. Anyhow I wonder why at all do I get sad and upset when I hear we can yet he saved, just by believing. Those who are destined for rejection on the last day, nobody can save them.
My prayer is we seriously reflect on this.
Love and blessings to everyone . Hope you guys make it on the last day. Hope I do as well. For even now I struggle to Love everyone as the Messiah commanded. I wish to work on that shortcoming of mine . Just find it hard to love some people . So easy for me to love Dogs n animals though ?
I was fervently asking the Lord the other day " Lord why don't we obey, why is it so hard to understand you sought obedience ( which finds its completion in love must 22:37-40) , why do we keep saying it's when we believe that we are saved?
After much "pestering " He finally told me "So many Believe , but How many TRUSTED me ?"
I was stunned to hear these words, for I had never read ir heard them before ....anywhere.
And then He pointed at Isaiah 53: 1

Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
The word there He said was NOT believed but TRUSTED . ( who has trusted our message... )
Because friends billions across the globe have believed the message. But the question is HOW MANY TRUSTED ? If we had trusted , we would have obeyed...even to the point of death as Peter, Thomas and almost every apostle of Christ did . They laid down their lives in obeying the great commission of the Lord, Matthew 28:18-20.
We all believed, but it's the ones who trusted Jesus enough to obey Him will finally find a dwelling with Him. None else.
That being said , it's just my thoughts. I have no proof that Jesus actually spoke to me . So please feel free to reject what I wrote ( my last paragraph). But to me , that was the truth. It cleared all the cobwebs in my mind about the message. If we have believed the gospel we must also trust the Lord enough to obey.

God bless everyone. May the Spirit of God lead us to His truths , that we may learn to turn away from sins and turn To Godly love for all, practicing acts of compassion as we journey through the remainder of our lives.
Blessings and love to all /\

 

[JLB]

Dear Couppy, Do you see anywhere , Father God , or Christ Jesus or any of the Prophets mention even once , we can be saved by Grace through Faith , as is popularly taught . In fact the architect of human salvation, Jesus Christ never mentioned Grace in His ministry. Somebody said He wanted to teach another Apostle( Paul) to teach grace . But what about thousands of people Jesus taught in His ministry . Thousands may have never gotten a chance to hear the word Grace in their lives. Why didnt He teach the true doctrine of salvation ( as is being rampantly preached now) that we are saved by Grace through Faith and not by works?
I feel terrible for the man who died on the cross, for his redemptive teaching did not revolve around Grace but around Obedience and LOVE. Reference Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 5:40-44, Matthew 7:12, a thought which John echoes in 1John 4:8, 1 John 4:16 ( nobody who does not love will be saved on the last daywarns John)
The unheeded words/ caveat of Christ( about Love) however took their toll on the Goats, the Christians who merely believed , but did not practice loving compassion and were rejected on the last day by the Messiah, a day we will all have to go through, " Saved" or " Unsaved" . Nobody is safe till the Judge announces His verdict on that day.
Did Jesus know this will happen ?
Sure He did. He knew Genesis to Revelation even before He had founded the world with Father God ( John 1:1-3)
He knew that there will be many Goats who will use excuses to not obey ( practice Loving kindness), and that is why He showed us the future day scene from ( an event waiting to happen) in which he will reject every christian ( and others) who did not pratcise loving kindness.
Jesus therefore quoted words of Father God in Matthew 13:13-15
This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled" the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I ( God) would heal them"

Since both Father and Son mention this I'm convinced they didn't want to save many but only the few who like the idol worshipper and part pagan the Good Sanaritan went out of their way to practice loving kindness. That then was the TRUE GRACE that would finally save a person.
Thus will also once again come true Chriats words " For many are called but few are Chosen" .... And these chosen ones are the Sheep ( the ones who bot bbn only believed but also obeyed) in the future event of Goats as nd Sheep vision Jesus showed us in Matthew 25:31-46.
Even though all this was destined to happen even before Jesus created the er world, I still feel terribly sad for those brothers who look for excuses to skirt around the Clarion call of the savior of obedience. Anyhow I wonder why at all do I get sad and upset when I hear we can yet he saved, just by believing. Those who are destined for rejection on the last day, nobody can save them.
My prayer is we seriously reflect on this.
Love and blessings to everyone . Hope you guys make it on the last day. Hope I do as well. For even now I struggle to Love everyone as the Messiah commanded. I wish to work on that shortcoming of mine . Just find it hard to love some people . So easy for me to love Dogs n animals though ?
I was fervently asking the Lord the other day " Lord why don't we obey, why is it so hard to understand you sought obedience ( which finds its completion in love must 22:37-40) , why do we keep saying it's when we believe that we are saved?
After much "pestering " He finally told me "So many Believe , but How many TRUSTED me ?"
I was stunned to hear these words, for I had never read ir heard them before ....anywhere.
And then He pointed at Isaiah 53: 1

Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
The word there He said was NOT believed but TRUSTED . ( who has trusted our message... )
Because friends billions across the globe have believed the message. But the question is HOW MANY TRUSTED ? If we had trusted , we would have obeyed...even to the point of death as Peter, Thomas and almost every apostle of Christ did . They laid down their lives in obeying the great commission of the Lord, Matthew 28:18-20.
We all believed, but it's the ones who trusted Jesus enough to obey Him will finally find a dwelling with Him. None else.
That being said , it's just my thoughts. I have no proof that Jesus actually spoke to me . So please feel free to reject what I wrote ( my last paragraph). But to me , that was the truth. It cleared all the cobwebs in my mind about the message. If we have believed the gospel we must also trust the Lord enough to obey.

God bless everyone. May the Spirit of God lead us to His truths , that we may learn to turn away from sins and turn To Godly love for all, practicing acts of compassion as we journey through the remainder of our lives.
Blessings and love to all /\

Thank you for your thoughtful and meaningful post.

God bless you brother.


Much of what you have posted is what Paul also wrote in his letters. I think if we understand what some of the biblical words mean, it could possibly bridge the gap in our differences of perspective, especially concerning Paul.


The biblical word “believe” in the original, and what Jesus and the Apostles understood it to mean, is vastly different than what the word means today in our modern world.


Believe: - pisteuō Strongs # G4100 - verb


The KJV translates Strong's G4100 in the following manner: believe(239x), commit unto (4x), commit to (one's) trust (1x), be committed unto (1x), be put in trust with (1x), be commit to one's trust (1x), believer (1x).


I. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
A. of the thing believed
i. to credit, have confidence
B. in a moral or religious reference
i. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
ii. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
iii. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
II. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
A. to be intrusted with a thing


Believe carries the meaning of obey —


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



It is noteworthy to understand that unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word and are used interchangeably in the Bible based on translation.


Example: Unbelief - Disobedience



Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


The word “believe” as it relates to Christ and His gospel, commandments and doctrine should be understood as follows.

Believe - Trust, commit to obey.


When Jesus says “believe and be saved”, He means something far different than what we may think.



Grace and Faith also carry a different meaning that we may not be aware of.





JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Thank you for your thoughtful and meaningful post.

God bless you brother.


Much of what you have posted is what Paul also wrote in his letters. I think if we understand what some of the biblical words mean, it could possibly bridge the gap in our differences of perspective, especially concerning Paul.


The biblical word “believe” in the original, and what Jesus and the Apostles understood it to mean, is vastly different than what the word means today in our modern world.


Believe: - pisteuō Strongs # G4100 - verb


The KJV translates Strong's G4100 in the following manner: believe(239x), commit unto (4x), commit to (one's) trust (1x), be committed unto (1x), be put in trust with (1x), be commit to one's trust (1x), believer (1x).


I. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
A. of the thing believed
i. to credit, have confidence
B. in a moral or religious reference
i. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
ii. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
iii. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
II. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
A. to be intrusted with a thing


Believe carries the meaning of obey —


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



It is noteworthy to understand that unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word and are used interchangeably in the Bible based on translation.


Example: Unbelief - Disobedience



Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


The word “believe” as it relates to Christ and His gospel, commandments and doctrine should be understood as follows.

Believe - Trust, commit to obey.


When Jesus says “believe and be saved”, He means something far different than what we may think.



Grace and Faith also carry a different meaning that we may not be aware of.





JLB

You explained very well brother ?, it is my utmost prayer, with my head bowed , I pray to all , to pay heed . Finally there will be no one, but our own words and actions as we stand before the judge Jesus and are judged on the last day. Had we been saved by Faith alone , Jesus would not have rejected all who did not pratcise Loving compassion in their early lives . No other criterion was cited by Judge on that day. I thank you brother JLB for explaining it scripurally. May God bless each one of us with His wisdom and discerning faith that we may do His Will ....always .

 

[Randy]

You explained very well brother ?, it is my utmost prayer, with my head bowed , I pray to all , to pay heed . Finally there will be no one, but our own words and actions as we stand before the judge Jesus and are judged on the last day. Had we been saved by Faith alone , Jesus would not have rejected all who did not pratcise Loving compassion in their early lives . No other criterion was cited by Judge on that day. I thank you brother JLB for explaining it scripurally. May God bless each one of us with His wisdom and discerning faith that we may do His Will ....always .

Made alive in Christ when they were dead in their transgressions. (grace)
Paul also notes those who are still under the power of the spirit of "disobedience"
Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh a and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Light given and turn them from power of disobedience to obedience -sanctified by faith in Jesus
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

It takes the Son for the change. Not of ourselves but the power of God
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

So it is those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey Gods commands that inherit life. But it is by the power of God giving victory over the power of sin. He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Made alive in Christ when they were dead in their transgressions. (grace)
Paul also notes those who are still under the power of the spirit of "disobedience"
Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh a and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Light given and turn them from power of disobedience to obedience -sanctified by faith in Jesus
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

It takes the Son for the change. Not of ourselves but the power of God
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

So it is those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey Gods commands that inherit life. But it is by the power of God giving victory over the power of sin. He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world.

/QUOTE]
3 quick questions Randy:
1) Why was " saved by grace" never taught even once by the architect of human salvation Jesus Christ in His entire ministry ( and after resurrection) ?
2) Why weren't the Goats in judgment day vision of Goats and Sheep account imparted Grace , rather than condemnation ?
3) In John 6:53–57, Jesus says, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Upon hearing these words, many of Jesus’ followers said, “This is a hard teaching” (verse 60), and many of them actually stopped following Him that day (verse 66). They deserted Jesus, who lost most of his followers that day. The question here is Why didnt Jesus call them back and tell them " You are saved by Grace " instead of losing most of His church that day ( He let them go and made no effort to call them back) Why?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

/QUOTE]
3 quick questions Randy:
1) Why was " saved by grace" never taught even once by the architect of human salvation Jesus Christ in His entire ministry ( and after resurrection) ?
2) Why weren't the Goats in judgment day vision of Goats and Sheep account imparted Grace , rather than condemnation ?
3) In John 6:53–57, Jesus says, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Upon hearing these words, many of Jesus’ followers said, “This is a hard teaching” (verse 60), and many of them actually stopped following Him that day (verse 66). They deserted Jesus, who lost most of his followers that day. The question here is Why didnt Jesus call them back and tell them " You are saved by Grace " instead of losing most of His church that day ( He let them go and made no effort to call them back) Why?

In Simple words Jesus did not even ONCE mention the concept of GRACE . Instead He taught like Father God and the Prophets .He taught if anything can save it is DOING THE WILL OF GOD ( Matthew 7: 21, Mark 3:35. )
He also explains it is through strict and willful Obedience that we do the Will of God as He Himself did continually and even in moments before crucifixion with the legendary Words " Can the cup not pass, yet not as I will but as you will....
So it's only through wilful obedience that we do the Will of God as the Son did.
But how can we obey all the commandments?
Our excellent and loving Lord made that possible by teaching us to LOVE. ..Love God, and the fellow human being , love each other and love even the enemy. ( matthew 22:37:42, Mathhew 7:12 , Matthew 5:42-46)
For when we learn to turn away from sin ( repent) and turn TO PRACTICING Loving kindness even to strangers ( like the Good Samaritan ) ALL our sins are forgiven ( proverbs 10:12, 1Peter 4:8) and we are now good with Father God
The salvation message of Christ Jesus thus was NOT Grace but LOVE.

 

[Randy]

In Simple words Jesus did not even ONCE mention the concept of GRACE . Instead He taught like Father God and the Prophets .He taught if anything can save it is DOING THE WILL OF GOD ( Matthew 7: 21, Mark 3:35. )
He also explains it is through strict and willful Obedience that we do the Will of God as He Himself did continually and even in moments before crucifixion with the legendary Words " Can the cup not pass, yet not as I will but as you will....
So it's only through wilful obedience that we do the Will of God as the Son did.
But how can we obey all the commandments?
Our excellent and loving Lord made that possible by teaching us to LOVE. ..Love God, and the fellow human being , love each other and love even the enemy. ( matthew 22:37:42, Mathhew 7:12 , Matthew 5:42-46)
For when we learn to turn away from sin ( repent) and turn TO PRACTICING Loving kindness even to strangers ( like the Good Samaritan ) ALL our sins are forgiven ( proverbs 10:12, 1Peter 4:8) and we are now good with Father God
The salvation message of Christ Jesus thus was NOT Grace but LOVE.

I think Jesus taught to believe in Him. What I received, Christ in me, I asked for based on His message and I received. It was freely given. If one was once dead in their sins and were MADE alive in Christ it was by grace and mercy and a act of a loving God. Not of themselves. Even now when I ask something of Jesus its based on His mercy not my righteousness.

We are purchased for God by the blood of Christ.

Paul though showing Gods grace and mercy did not teach we are free to continue to sin.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I think Jesus taught to believe in Him. What I received, Christ in me, I asked for based on His message and I received. It was freely given. If one was once dead in their sins and were MADE alive in Christ it was by grace and mercy and a act of a loving God. Not of themselves. Even now when I ask something of Jesus its based on His mercy not my righteousness.

We are purchased for God by the blood of Christ.

Paul though showing Gods grace and mercy did not teach we are free to continue to sin.

Who are these righteous people that Jesus talks about in Mark 2:17 and Luke 5:31-32 ( they also find abundance of mention in book of proverbs as well ) Who are these righteous folks then?

Mark 2:17
It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jesus's words are repeated in Luke 5:31 -32 also:
"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."