Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

[brightfame52]

Yes, I agree Jesus has authority to give eternal life to the ones the Father gave Him out of this world.


Jesus goes on to clarify that those who the Father gave Him out of this world were His twelve disciples.

The Father gave Him twelve men in which to disciple and send out to continue His work of preaching the Gospel and making disciples.


“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. John 17:6-19

• Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

As we all can see, the context is clear. The men Jesus is referring to specifically the phrase “Those whom You gave Me“ refers His twelve disciples. Their purpose was to fulfill the great commission and teach their disciples all things that Jesus taught them.


My point:

They were given to Him by His Father for purpose, not for salvation. Jesus continually prayed for them. He prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail.

Eternal life is not automatic, as we see in the life of Judas Iscariot.

Eternal life comes at the end of a faithful life, in which they and we do not fall away.


You are attempting to take these words out of context, and use them to prop up your theory that eternal life is “given” to people without them hearing, and believing the Gospel.

Eternal salvation is given with a condition... that condition is to obey Jesus Christ.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



The Apostle Paul says it this way —


But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:27



Peter also —


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls

Again, I ask you to consider these verses as well as all the verses that that pant a complete picture of those who will inherit eternal life, and thereby receive the salvation of their soul.



Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7




JLB

He was given more than the disciples. They are part of a whole, the Body of Christ. He was given all that He prayed for. Jn 17:20-21

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus said to Peter, Get behind me Satan.


Is Peter Satan?


Do you believe Judas was a human being or a demon?



JLB

Yes he said that to Peter. But He said only one was a devil. Are you saying two were a devil? Are you saying Jesus called both Peter and judas a devil?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Wondering : Jesus said to count the cost before deciding to be an disciple.
I never hear this being preached either.
Luke 14:28....

I'm glad you quoted the Count the Cost Caveat of Christ in Luke 14:25-34
before anyone wants to become His disciple. Jesus wants EVERYTHING from His disciple and was giving a heads up to the prospective disciples.
Paraphrasing / summarizing the paragraph of Christ this si is what he was cautioning them " Hey guys consider all this before wanting to become my follower---- you may have to give up everything for me including your life!"

The same message is repeated in Matthew 10:37-38
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
’and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me"
Then again to the rich man and Jesus incident, this is what Jesus tells the Rich man who wanted to beecome Jesus dicsiple

Brother, I love you.

You are certainly entitled to your own perspective like everyone else. However, at this Forum, we have a Statement of Faith, which declares our position on the matter of scripture.


Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.


Please do not tear at the fabric of our community with such statements as ....




Please do not promote this idea here.


Just because God has chosen to reveal some unpleasant things in the Bible doesn’t mean they are not true.



Thank you.





JLB

Sorry JLB , my profound and unconditional apology to you and the website , who are both ( you and this website which is my church) dear to me for I have learned much here. I definitely didnt mean to hurt anybody's faith or feelings. But I understand my views on Paul are sometimes beyond the acceptable guidelines . I will make sure I do not cross that line again /\
This was a wake up call for me

 

[JLB]

Yes he said that to Peter. But He said only one was a devil. Are you saying two were a devil? Are you saying Jesus called both Peter and judas a devil?

Im saying Jesus referred to Peter as Satan, because he was opposing God’s will, and said Judas was a devil.


Can you answer the question?


Do you believe Judas Iscariot was a human being or an evil spirit?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm glad you quoted the Count the Cost Caveat of Christ in Luke 14:25-34
before anyone wants to become His disciple. Jesus wants EVERYTHING from His disciple and was giving a heads up to the prospective disciples.
Paraphrasing / summarizing the paragraph of Christ this si is what he was cautioning them " Hey guys consider all this before wanting to become my follower---- you may have to give up everything for me including your life!"

The same message is repeated in Matthew 10:37-38
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
’and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me"
Then again to the rich man and Jesus incident, this is what Jesus tells the Rich man who wanted to beecome Jesus dicsiple
Sorry JLB , my profound and unconditional apology to you and the website , who are both ( you and this website which is my church) dear to me for I have learned much here. I definitely didnt mean to hurt anybody's faith or feelings. But I understand my views on Paul are sometimes beyond the acceptable guidelines . I will make sure I do not cross that line again /\
This was a wake up call for me

Thanks bro.


You didn’t hurt my feelings. Feelings are really not what is involved.


If you feel the need to discuss why you believe that all scripture is not inspired by God, then pm me and I will hear you out.




Thanks JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Im saying Jesus referred to Peter as Satan, because he was opposing God’s will, and said Judas was a devil.


Can you answer the question?


Do you believe Judas Iscariot was a human being or an evil spirit?


JLB

So then there were two devils instead of one correct ? Satan and the devil are the same correct. Jesus was mistakeen when He said quite clearly this Jn 6:70
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Maybe you think Peter is the One devil Jesus means here. Is that what you believe ?

 

[JLB]

So then there were two devils instead of one correct ?

If you mean evil spirits. No, both Peter and Judas were human beings.

Both Peter and Judas were called by Jesus to follow Him as disciples; both answered.

Both Peter and Judas were used by Satan to try and stop Jesus from fulfilling His destiny; both failed.


Both Peter and Judas were promoted to Apostles, and sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, both were empowered to cast out devils, heal the sick, and raise the dead, as well as cleanse the lepers.


Both Peter and Judas were predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come. Matthew 19:28


Both Peter and Judas deserted Jesus.



Peter repented and was restored.

Judas hung himself in shame.


The difference between victory and defeat, heaven and hell is in how we handle failure.


We can humble ourselves and return to God, and be restored.

or

We can try to bury the shame in suicide, drugs, alcohol and denial.


The choice is always ours, to repent or not.




JLB

 

[Walpole]

Yes he said that to Peter. But He said only one was a devil. Are you saying two were a devil? Are you saying Jesus called both Peter and judas a devil?

FYI, the devil = Satan

Revelation 12:9 ---> "And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him."

Revelation 20:2 ---> "And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years"

 

[brightfame52]

mistaken

If you mean evil spirits. No, both Peter and Judas were human beings.

Both Peter and Judas were called by Jesus to follow Him as disciples; both answered.

Both Peter and Judas were used by Satan to try and stop Jesus from fulfilling His destiny; both failed.


Both Peter and Judas were promoted to Apostles, and sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, both were empowered to cast out devils, heal the sick, and raise the dead, as well as cleanse the lepers.


Both Peter and Judas were predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come. Matthew 19:28


Both Peter and Judas deserted Jesus.



Peter repented and was restored.

Judas hung himself in shame.


The difference between victory and defeat, heaven and hell is in how we handle failure.


We can humble ourselves and return to God, and be restored.

or

We can try to bury the shame in suicide, drugs, alcohol and denial.


The choice is always ours, to repent or not.




JLB

Yes both were human beings. Now that said, you believe when Jesus said to Peter after Peter made his statement " get behind me satan" is the same exact thing as stating that someone among the twelve is a devil ?

 

[brightfame52]

FYI, the devil = Satan

Revelation 12:9 ---> "And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him."

Revelation 20:2 ---> "And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years"

You not telling me something I didnt know.

 

[GodsGrace]

I will explain it. I will simply quote from the site below which is a reform point of view and I agree with it.

"Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul

"A horrible decree. . . ." "Most ruthless statement. . . ." "A terrible theological theory. . . ." "An illegitimate inference of logic. . . ." These and other ... %}

www.ligonier.org

The sites explains how the non-reform view of Double Predestination as Positive-Positive which means "There is a symmetry that exists between election and reprobation. God works in the same way and same manner with respect to the elect and to the reprobate. That is to say, from all eternity God decreed some to election and by divine initiative works faith in their hearts and brings them actively to salvation. By the same token, from all eternity God decrees some to sin and damnation and actively intervenes to work sin in their lives, bringing them to damnation by divine initiative."
AGAIN, THIS IS NOT REFORMED POINT OF VIEW. Rather, this is how others present the REFORM point of view.

The Reformed View of Predestination
In sharp contrast to the caricature of double predestination seen in the positive-positive schema is the classic position of Reformed theology on predestination. In this view predestination is double in that it involves both election and reprobation but is not symmetrical with respect to the mode of divine activity. A strict parallelism of operation is denied. Rather we view predestination in terms of a positive-negative relationship.
In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives.

So, regarding REFORM theology...

1. if you define Double Predestination as the positive-positive point of view and assign it to Reformed theology, then that is false.
2. if you define Double Predestination as the positive-negative point of view and assign it to Reformed theology, then that is true.

My guess is you define Double Predestination as the positive-positive, in which case your view is wrong. If you define Double Predestination as the positive-negative, then you are correct and we have a semantics issue/communication issue.

Aside: This is why I like definitions
Aside: Short summation of Reform Doctrine. Everyone is going to hell unless God intervenes. God chooses to intervene for some ... the rest He does nothing. If this is what you mean by double predestination, I agree.

Postive-Positive
Positive-Negative
What's the difference?

Does it matter what John Calvin taught since it's called Calvinism?
Also, you again post a paragraph of something someone wrote and you agree with, but I don't see the source.
I might have missed it.

And why are these statements even necessasry?
You keep quoting persons instead of the bible...
IF you're going to quote someone....quote John Calvin.
Some try to make calvinism more palatable....but the truth is that it's a rather horrifying teaching.

Try this:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

source:
J. Calvin's Institutes
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

Calvin agree with the positive-positive view.

Although it doesn't matter --- the reprobate are going to hell BECAUSE God passed over them.

Cheap shot .... not worry of a reply.

Why is my posting John Piper a cheap shot?
You keep posting authors that I've never even heard of and am supposed
to use THEM as support for your beliefs?

Piper even believes God loves all people !!
Listen to how he understands John 3:16....
He makes it sound so normal, doesn't he?

I think we both try to understand the incomprehensible God.

God is much more comprehensible to everyone else...
Calvinists have a difficult time understanding a lot...
There are many mysteries in the Calvinist doctrine.
How many times have I heard that the teaching is a mystery we cannot understand.

Agreed if you mean God predestined man would do evil as opposed to causes man to do evil.

No FF.
Calvinism believes God created evil.

Please read the following:

For Calvin said God “wills and wills not the very same thing” and yet God ‘remains free of any taint.’ (Institutes, 1:18.1 [See CCEL 1230 of the PDF of Institutes, at pages 193-200, viz., 193-94].) In context, Calvin meant God wills evil and wills not evil at the very same identical time, but is not morally culpable for having willed evil.
With this odd doctrine in hand, Calvin could see in himself the same divine spirit he saw in God. Calvin could will and will not the very same deed. Thus, if God could live with such a contradiction between His purposes and will, and will Himself murder but be free of any taint, then Calvin too could imagine he could will a murder but likewise be free of any taint.
This may all sound a bit bizarre, but that is only because dear Reader you have not yet encountered the bizarre theological view of Calvin on the role of God in evil.

Calvin’s Belief About Free-Will and God’s Control​

Calvin believed Satan has no free will. Neither does any human. Calvin reasoned that to give man a moment of free will disrespected God’s honor of controlling everything.2 Calvin thus taught God directs all the evil thoughts as well as the good thoughts of both humans and Satan. The idea of free-will is a false “idol.” (Institutes 1.5.11.) Free-will is supposedly a name without substance. (Institutes 3.2.16.) [See also 2.5 "The Arguments Alleged in Support of Free-Will Refuted" at Institutes PDF page 260.]
Calvin taught this idea about God as the driving force behind every evil thought and deed most pointedly in Chapter Eighteen in Book One of the Institutes of the Christian Religion. This chapter was entitled “The Instrumentality of the Wicked Employed by God While He Continues Free from Every Taint.” The citation is Institutes, 1:18. [See PDF Institutes pages 193-94.]

source: https://www.jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/755-calvin-doctrine-god-predestines-all-evil.html

Please note that the above is quoting Calvin's institutes

You don't believe in an all knowing God. He was surprised when man did evil, he LEARNED who would save themselves by looking into the future. You don't believe He is eternal for He looks into the future to learn and therefore is dependent upon time. You don't believe God is immutable. He changes as His knowledge changes as He learns from us and our decisions. You deny God total freedom; rather, he is subject to our decisions. In the same way you deny God's sovereignty over all things; rather, He advocated the throne to immoral men to determine the future. You define God as all wise, yet you force God to be controlled by the decisions of man. You believe God is righteous; yet your model of righteousness is guided by your idea of fairness based on man's ideals, yahda, yahda, yahda

Please don't tell me what I believe.
All of your above statements demonstrate to me that calvinists believe God is impotent unless man has no free will.
I DO believe God is much more sovereign than any calvinist does.

You have yet to show me where, in the bible, free will has been taken away from man since Adam and Eve had it
in the garden.

Smiles, I am always content to be among the remnant. (Aside: mainline Christianity ideals change with time. It doesn't take much of an historian to know that; therefore, your premise is invalidated.

What premise?
However, if I stated something historical...it'll be correct if you check it out.
Please repeat what I said in your replies.

Re: https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A189/is-god-responsible-for-evil
John MacArthur quotes:

1. Many Scriptures affirm that God is not the author of evil: "God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13).
2. Evil originates not from God but from the fallen creature. I agree with John Calvin
3. God's role with regard to evil is never as its author.

You won't give quotes, so I will.

Well,,,we agree on God not creating evil !!
Then come on over to my side, because you're side believes God created evil.

 

[JLB]

Yes both were human beings. Now that said, you believe when Jesus said to Peter after Peter made his statement " get behind me satan" is the same exact thing as stating that someone among the twelve is a devil ?

Different.



Peter was trying to convince Jesus not to go to the cross.


Jesus foresaw that Judas would become a guide for those who arrested Him, in which he would becone a traitor.


Definition of devil; diablos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Different.



Peter was trying to convince Jesus not to go to the cross.


Jesus foresaw that Judas would become a guide for those who arrested Him, in which he would becone a traitor.


Definition of devil; diablos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

JLB

Jesus was calling judas, his person a devil. With Peter, He was rebuking a satanic idealogy, Peters philosophy was wrong, inspired by satanic influence, Jesus was not calling Peter a Satan, as He did with judas calling him a devil.

 

[JLB]

Jesus was calling judas, his person a devil. With Peter, He was rebuking a satanic idealogy, Peters philosophy was wrong, inspired by satanic influence, Jesus was not calling Peter a Satan, as He did with judas calling him a devil.

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us.

Both Peter and Judas were predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come. Matthew 19:28


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28




Both Peter and Judas were called by Jesus to follow Him as disciples; both answered.

Both Peter and Judas were used by Satan to try and stop Jesus from fulfilling His destiny; both failed.


Both Peter and Judas were promoted to Apostles, and sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, both were empowered to cast out devils, heal the sick, and raise the dead, as well as cleanse the lepers.


Both Peter and Judas were predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come. Matthew 19:28


Both Peter and Judas deserted Jesus.



Peter repented and was restored.

Judas hung himself in shame.


The difference between victory and defeat, heaven and hell is in how we handle failure.


We can humble ourselves and return to God, and be restored.

or

We can try to bury the shame in suicide, drugs, alcohol and denial.


The choice is always ours, to repent or not.


JLB

 

[Walpole]

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us.

Both Peter and Judas were predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come. Matthew 19:28


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28




Both Peter and Judas were called by Jesus to follow Him as disciples; both answered.

Both Peter and Judas were used by Satan to try and stop Jesus from fulfilling His destiny; both failed.


Both Peter and Judas were promoted to Apostles, and sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, both were empowered to cast out devils, heal the sick, and raise the dead, as well as cleanse the lepers.


Both Peter and Judas were predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come. Matthew 19:28


Both Peter and Judas deserted Jesus.



Peter repented and was restored.

Judas hung himself in shame.


The difference between victory and defeat, heaven and hell is in how we handle failure.


We can humble ourselves and return to God, and be restored.

or

We can try to bury the shame in suicide, drugs, alcohol and denial.


The choice is always ours, to repent or not.


JLB

Another great post!


Judas was a "sheep" (Mt. 10:16), a "disciple" (Mt. 10:1), an "Apostle" (Mt. 10:2-4), one of "the twelve" (Luke 22:47) , sent to "proclaim the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:2), "chosen" (John 6:70), and a "friend" (Mt. 26:50). These are all words used by Jesus Himself and the Scriptures to refer to Judas.

Sometimes sheep, like Judas, get lost and fall away. (Acts 1:25). You cannot fall away from that which you never belonged to.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Postive-Positive
Positive-Negative
What's the difference?

Well, that why you don't understand Double Predestination from a Reformed perspective.

Also, you again post a paragraph of something someone wrote and you agree with, but I don't see the source.
I might have missed it.

I included a link.

And why are these statements even necessasry?
You keep quoting persons instead of the bible...

The Bible has nothing to say about Arminianism, Calvinism, Roman Catholicism, etc. Since the topic at hand is Calvinism and its understanding of the Bible ... one must go to an authority on Calvinism which is not the Bible. This is elementary logic. Example: we talk about the color of your hair... we don't go to the Bible to site evidence ... we goes to an authority like a relative of yours. Same as when you talked about a recipe/food with Oz, you didn't quote the Bible.

Some try to make calvinism more palatable....but the truth is that it's a rather horrifying teaching.

Some try to make non-calvinism more palatable....but the truth is that it's a rather horrifying teaching.
Both statements are an empty pejoratives.

Most of the doctrines of Calvinism are the same as other denominations. I just read Henry Thiessen's Lectures in Systematic Theology. Thiessen is an Arminian as best I can tell (prevenient grace, election). 95% (my guess) of the book could have been written by a Calvinist in my opinion.
My point is, your statement, if taken on face value, says the teachings of protestants is "a rather horrifying teaching". Thus, to the degree that Protestant teachings mirror the Bible you are implying that the Bible is "a rather horrifying teaching".
I think you not to consider your thoughts and their implications before writing them down. Your hatred of Calvinism has distorted your perception of it's teachings as many (most?) of your posts on the subject clearly imply.

Aside: I believe Arminians are my brothers in Christ and that I agree with 95% of their doctrines and that in no way would I describe their doctrines as "a rather horrifying teaching". Any Arminian teaching I disagree with I would not describe as "a rather horrifying teaching". For the most part their teachings that deviate from my understanding has some evidence to substantiate it.

No FF.
Calvinism believes God created evil.

Ridiculous.

 

[brightfame52]

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us.

Both Peter and Judas were predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come. Matthew 19:28


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28




Both Peter and Judas were called by Jesus to follow Him as disciples; both answered.

Both Peter and Judas were used by Satan to try and stop Jesus from fulfilling His destiny; both failed.


Both Peter and Judas were promoted to Apostles, and sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, both were empowered to cast out devils, heal the sick, and raise the dead, as well as cleanse the lepers.


Both Peter and Judas were predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come. Matthew 19:28


Both Peter and Judas deserted Jesus.



Peter repented and was restored.

Judas hung himself in shame.


The difference between victory and defeat, heaven and hell is in how we handle failure.


We can humble ourselves and return to God, and be restored.

or

We can try to bury the shame in suicide, drugs, alcohol and denial.


The choice is always ours, to repent or not.


JLB

I disagree with your opinion about Judas, he was predestinated to be the son of perdition so the scripture may be fulfilled Jn 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

What is " the son of perdition" ? What is perdition ? Paul uses the word in Phil 1:28

And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, G684 but to you of salvation, and that of God.

 

[Randy]

In this short a time (3-3/1/2 years) the influence Jesus had on Judas was He became wicked?
I think not. Judas was noted as a thief in the testimony and the fault was already in his heart.
It was Judas's own doing, NOT GOD, that led to his perishing.

 

[JLB]

Sometimes sheep, like Judas, get lost and fall away. (Acts 1:25). You cannot fall away from that which you never belonged to.

Amen.


A simple and profound truth that many choose to ignore.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I disagree with your opinion about Judas, he was predestinated to be the son of perdition so the scripture may be fulfilled Jn 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

What is " the son of perdition" ? What is perdition ? Paul uses the word in Phil 1:28

And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, G684 but to you of salvation, and that of God.

By saying Judas was lost, it’s clear he once belonged.


One can not lose what one does not own.




JLB