Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

[Ricko]

Hebrews has plenty of verses that imply that some Christians have to maintain their faith, otherwise IMO they are lost. One is Hebrews 6:1-8. If as you say that no one can disown Jesus, the words "have fallen away" would not have been there. I would suggest that you read Hebrews and pay attention to the little word "if".

Salvation is not being addressed in Heb 6. If you would continue to read in v9 the author says he is speaking of things that accompany salvation. Rewards are at stake, not salvation.

 

[Ricko]

The difficulty I'm seeing with your prodigal son reference is the scripture says he was lost until he returned.

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet.
23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry;
24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’

My understanding is that we are all lost sinners. Some of us have a savior. The true son will always return to the father. For His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. John 10:27

 

[Brother Mike]

I find these 2 sentences puzzling, to say the least. I know what the word "omniscience" means, but maybe you have a different definition of it. But God does know everything. So to say that God knows everything is NOT to say that He is a liar. That's just a bizarre statement. Your second sentence makes no sense to me. Where does God "say one thing knowing fully ahead of time that it will end up differently"? Why would anyone even make that claim? I sure haven't.


OK, please provide the Scripture that tells us what God does not know. I can't wait.


Your error is that He DID give it to the Jews. Just not the first generation, who did screw up, as you noted. In fact, they hid behind their children as their "reason" (excuse) for not entering the promised land (Num 14:1-4) after the 12 spies came back and reported what they found. And God responded by saying that for such a lack of faith, He would give the land to their children, but they themselves would NOT enter. Num 14:22-23


God did give Eli the priesthood. In fact, even his sons were priests. Maybe reading Scripture would help you understand the truth.


So you deny God's attribute of omniscience. Sad, to say the least.

Forgive me, I am on a Tablet, and switching to mysword, then back to browser sometimes refreshes the page, so I try to avoid grabbing scriptures. God's omniscience means to know all things. I don't question that. I question the idea that God knows a persons end from their beggining. People often misquote Isa, even in my own church.

God declares the end from the beggining, His console will stand. Causing something is not looking into a crystal ball. What God speaks, comes to pass.

Is God in complete contol of every single life, or God sets a plan for each life to find and follow, through faith, obedience and patience they inherit the promise.

I see you geting lots of resistance, what is your stance? God knows all things like a medium, or having a crystal ball, or God causes everything?

 

[FreeGrace]

Forgive me, I am on a Tablet, and switching to mysword, then back to browser sometimes refreshes the page, so I try to avoid grabbing scriptures. God's omniscience means to know all things. I don't question that. I question the idea that God knows a persons end from their beggining.

This is a huge disconnect. You understand the meaning of omniscience and you ascribe it to God. Good. But then you deny His omniscience by your very next statement. Makes no sense. Because He is omniscient, He DOES know everyone's end from their beginning. If He did not, then He would not be omniscient.

God declares the end from the beggining, His console will stand. Causing something is not looking into a crystal ball. What God speaks, comes to pass.

Sounds very close to the Calvinist mindset. That what God knows is because God determines, or causes. No, He knows every free will choice that will ever be made.

Is God in complete contol of every single life, or God sets a plan for each life to find and follow, through faith, obedience and patience they inherit the promise.

No, God allows men and angels freedom to act as they want. Otherwise, we'd all be just robots or puppets.

I see you geting lots of resistance, what is your stance?

Resistance on what, exactly? OSAS?

My stance on what, exactly?

God knows all things like a medium, or having a crystal ball, or God causes everything?

No, God is not like a medium. They only know by looking into a crystal ball. That means they DON'T know until they look.

God never has to "look". He already completely knows. Everything. Totally unlike an idiot medium.

And no, God does not cause everything. If He did, He would be the direct cause of sin. That is blasphemous if believed.

 

[Brother Mike]

This is a huge disconnect. You understand the meaning of omniscience and you ascribe it to God. Good. But then you deny His omniscience by your very next statement. Makes no sense. Because He is omniscient, He DOES know everyone's end from their beginning. If He did not, then He would not be omniscient.


Sounds very close to the Calvinist mindset. That what God knows is because God determines, or causes. No, He knows every free will choice that will ever be made.


No, God allows men and angels freedom to act as they want. Otherwise, we'd all be just robots or puppets.


Resistance on what, exactly? OSAS?

My stance on what, exactly?


No, God is not like a medium. They only know by looking into a crystal ball. That means they DON'T know until they look.

God never has to "look". He already completely knows. Everything. Totally unlike an idiot medium.

And no, God does not cause everything. If He did, He would be the direct cause of sin. That is blasphemous if believed.

OK, so more Arminianism point of view, not a Calvins point of view. OSAS is more a Election point of view though, right? God could know a person who would get saved then change their mind, right? Election belives once God picks someone to be saved, then nothing can change that despite what the person wants.

However, Is not God knowing everything still election? You don't want to make God out to be evil, like Calvinist do (though they won't admit that) but All knowing is still election, just another term. Instead of God planing, it's changed to God knew.

If I know that setting a cloth on the stove, it can catch on fire, yet set it on the stove anyway and it catches on fire, then that is not just foreknowledge but a plan to catch the cloth on fire.

Wisdom would dictate (Which God has far exceeding wisdom beyond our understanding) that I prevent the fire by not putting the cloth on the stove becuase of my foreknowledge that it may catch on fire.

If God's wisdom is more perfect than mine (Foreknowledge) and He knows for a fact it won't catch fire, then God could put the cloth on the stove, with no fire.

I don't put it on the stove, as I have limited foreknowledge, but wisdom that it may just catch fire.

It always reverts back to election. Some don't like it that simple, but there can't be such a thing as God knows everything, unless God is at fault for the good and the bad. It would have to be election again.

For if God places Adam in the Garden, knowing ahead of time that the conditions that God placed Adam in would end up in death causing grief for many years, then it's no longer God knowing Adam would blow it, but God knew and caused the death and pain anyway. God should have changed the conditions of Adam in the Garden if God knew, otherwise God is still responsible.

In court systems people are not confused about causing and foreknowledge. Talk about it in the bible they get confused. If I shoot someone knowing they would die, it's not my great foreknowledge that they would, its called premedatated murder.

My church is the same way, God knows the end from the beggining. My church does not ever want to make God out to be evil, and man must be responisble for his actions. However, God has to be all powerful in their minds, so they use foreknowledge. Calvinist use predestination.

I submit to you it's neither, and God is not evil.

Blessings.

 

[FreeGrace]

OK, so more Arminianism point of view, not a Calvins point of view.

I'm neither. Both have major problems with Scripture.

OSAS is more a Election point of view though, right?

No, not really. They are totally different.

God could know a person who would get saved then change their mind, right?

No, God doesn't change people's minds. He gives mankind freedom of thought.

Election belives once God picks someone to be saved, then nothing can change that despite what the person wants.

Not true. That is the erroneous Calvinist view of election. We find who God elects in Eph 1:4. "God chose US". The "us" is defined in Eph 1:19. Believers.

God doesn't choose who will become believers. He chooses believers. Big difference.

However, Is not God knowing everything still election?

No. God knowing everything is omniscience, not election.

You don't want to make God out to be evil, like Calvinist do (though they won't admit that) but All knowing is still election, just another term.

Wrong. Not even close to the same thing. I think you're confused on these terms.

If I know that setting a cloth on the stove, it can catch on fire, yet set it on the stove anyway and it catches on fire, then that is not just foreknowledge but a plan to catch the cloth on fire.

What in the world does this non example of omniscience have to do with anything??

Wisdom would dictate (Which God has far exceeding wisdom beyond our understanding) that I prevent the fire by not putting the cloth on the stove becuase of my foreknowledge that it may catch on fire.

So?

If God's wisdom is more perfect than mine (Foreknowledge) and He knows for a fact it won't catch fire, then God could put the cloth on the stove, with no fire.

I still have no idea what your non example of omniscience is about.

It always reverts back to election.

Uh, what "always" reverts back to election? Seems you don't understand what election is.

Some don't like it that simple, but there can't be such a thing as God knows everything, unless God is at fault for the good and the bad. It would have to be election again.

Yep, way confused. There IS such a thing as God knows everything, because…wait for it…that is what OMNISCIENCE actually means!!! And God is NOT "at fault" for the good and the bad. Again, your understanding of "election" is lacking.

For if God places Adam in the Garden, knowing ahead of time that the conditions that God placed Adam in would end up in death causing grief for many years, then it's no longer God knowing Adam would blow it, but God knew and caused the death and pain anyway.

This is just nonsense. Because God knows that Adam would sin doesn't mean in the slightest that God caused it. He allowed Adam to sin. But maybe you can't see the difference. But it's there and it's huge.

God should have changed the conditions of Adam in the Garden if God knew, otherwise God is still responsible.

Again, nonsense.

In court systems people are not confused about causing and foreknowledge. Talk about it in the bible they get confused. If I shoot someone knowing they would die, it's not my great foreknowledge that they would, its called premedatated murder.

These non examples are starting to pile high.

My church is the same way, God knows the end from the beggining.

I thought you previously posted that He couldn't. What do you believe?

My church does not ever want to make God out to be evil, and man must be responisble for his actions. However, God has to be all powerful in their minds, so they use foreknowledge. Calvinist use predestination.

More confusion.

I submit to you it's neither, and God is not evil.

You mean…all that just to say this?? Of course it's neither and of course God is not evil.

Blessings.

Confusion is not a blessing. I have no idea what your post was trying to accomplish.

 

[Brother Mike]

inability to follow along is disturbing.

If you know something, but go through with it, it is called "Causing" If God Knows Adam will blow it yet puts Adam in the Garden, then God caused it. God's Garden, God's Conditions, God's Tree of Good and evil. If God knew the outcome, then God is the author of death, not Adam.

If God predetermined Adam to blow it, then no question God's fault.

If you don't understand my examples, then how the heck you understand foreknowledge of your car running out of Gas when it's on empty? You just not buy gas? or, you just get this way talking about God?

I find it hard to believe my examples were really that hard to follow.

 

[Deborah13]

Forgive me, I am on a Tablet, and switching to mysword, then back to browser sometimes refreshes the page, so I try to avoid grabbing scriptures. God's omniscience means to know all things. I don't question that. I question the idea that God knows a persons end from their beggining. People often misquote Isa, even in my own church.

God declares the end from the beggining, His console will stand. Causing something is not looking into a crystal ball. What God speaks, comes to pass.

Is God in complete contol of every single life, or God sets a plan for each life to find and follow, through faith, obedience and patience they inherit the promise.

I see you geting lots of resistance, what is your stance? God knows all things like a medium, or having a crystal ball, or God causes everything?

God said that He did not cause the Israelites to offer the children in the fires of Molech.
KJV
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

[Brother Mike]

God said that He did not cause the Israelites to offer the children in the fires of Molech.
KJV
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Blessing Deborah, glad to get someone to respond back to me that has understanding. Always glad to hear from you.

Thanks for bringing up Jer 32:35.................... Ummm, what exactly do you think I am saying I believe?

My position is that God neither predestines mans action, or even knows mans future actions unless they obey him and follow his path. The Path of the just.

On God's path, all God planned happens, and God can tell you exactly what you will be doing 20 years from now because it's in the plan, according to his purpose. Off his plan is darkness, and they don't know why they stumble.

Of course it did not even enter into God's mind they would do such horrible things, which proves God is not using forknowledge on man, or predestination. As Freegrace has been contesting with me.

God does not get the blame for anything. You obey him, good things happen. God is not thinking anyone won't make it. Jer 29:11 Man choose not to make it on their own.

When I use to repent, I told the Lord that He knows ahead of time that I will do what I said, He has a plan, and knows all things.

After God helped me see some things in scripture, I found out this repent and all things are well and restored to they way they should be is not exactly true. You prove yourself.

This is why Jesus said, who is faithful in little, more is given and who is faithful in anothers, your own things will be given.

Gen 18:19 kjva For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The Lord says "I know him." It was the Lord knowing Abraham personally that allowed him to do for Abraham all that He said. Whats the Lord know about me? That I'll just do the same things again once they are presented to me and have to just repent again? Not much to work with there.

Gen 22:12 kjva And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

When did the Lord know? Puts a whole different perspective on this sin and repent cycle. Did for me anyway. I want the Lord to know I can be trusted, through all situations. I won't waiver, I won't even not believe and trust him.

If it's some Thing God already knew, then many scriptures would not be in the Word, if it was just God causing everything, then all the believe this scriptures would be missing.

Blessings.

 

[FreeGrace]

inability to follow along is disturbing.

I'd agree with that.

If you know something, but go through with it, it is called "Causing" If God Knows Adam will blow it yet puts Adam in the Garden, then God caused it.

No, it isn't. Allowing an action is NOT causing it. No way.

God's Garden, God's Conditions, God's Tree of Good and evil. If God knew the outcome, then God is the author of death, not Adam.

Sorry, but your statement is wrong. Knowing an outcome is NOT causing the outcome. Permission does NOT equal causation. Permission is allowing another's freedom of choice to act. Causing is one's own will to act. Big difference.

If God predetermined Adam to blow it, then no question God's fault.

Predetermined in what way? This is always the problem when debating Calvinists; trying to figure out what they actually mean by the words they choose. Because God IS omniscient, He has always known every choice that will be made by any of His creatures; angelic or human. But that isn't "predetermined". If one determines, then that one's will is involved and is causation.

Your view puts all blame of sin on God. That is preposterous.

If you don't understand my examples, then how the heck you understand foreknowledge of your car running out of Gas when it's on empty?

So what? Of course I understand that when the tank is emptied of fuel, it won't run. But that had nothing to do with anything we've been discussing. Again, another non example.

btw, to be clear, the 2 phrases you just used; "car running out of gas" and "on empty" mean the same, and foreknowledge has nothing to do with them.

You just not buy gas? or, you just get this way talking about God?

Another example of a confused sentence. Please re-read your sentence and see if it makes any sense to you.

I find it hard to believe my examples were really that hard to follow.

They weren't hard to follow. Your point continues to be. Esp given the non examples. From all your posts, I suspect that you aren't real clear on the meaning of foreknowledge or omniscience.

 

[FreeGrace]

Blessing Deborah, glad to get someone to respond back to me that has understanding. Always glad to hear from you.

Thanks for bringing up Jer 32:35.................... Ummm, what exactly do you think I am saying I believe?

Interesting. a bit of "snark" regarding my posts, then you compliment Deborah in one breath and aren't sure of what she understands of your view. Maybe she also doesn't undestand your view.

My position is that God neither predestines mans action, or even knows mans future actions unless they obey him and follow his path. The Path of the just.

This statement demonstrates that you do not understand the meaning of "omniscience". Thanks for clearing that up.

Of course it did not even enter into God's mind they would do such horrible things, which proves God is not using forknowledge on man, or predestination.

If that were correct, then God would NOT be omniscient. But He is.

God does not get the blame for anything. You obey him, good things happen. God is not thinking anyone won't make it. Jer 29:11 Man choose not to make it on their own.

Whatever God is the cause of means He is directly responsible for it. If He causes sin, then He is directly responsible for it. But we know that He is perfectly holy, therefore He cannot be responsible for sin. Allowing sin to occur is not causation.

When I use to repent, I told the Lord that He knows ahead of time that I will do what I said, He has a plan, and knows all things.

Do you believe He knows "ahead of time" because He is causing you to sin? Or causing you to repent? Which is it?

After God helped me see some things in scripture, I found out this repent and all things are well and restored to they way they should be is not exactly true. You prove yourself.

More confusion. How is repentance "not exactly true"? And "you prove yourself".

When did the Lord know?

Omniscience means always has known.

Puts a whole different perspective on this sin and repent cycle. Did for me anyway. I want the Lord to know I can be trusted, through all situations.

So He won't know until you tell Him, huh? Seriously?

If it's some Thing God already knew, then many scriptures would not be in the Word

Could you clarify you what are really saying here? For me, omniscience means that God has already known everything, so the first part of your sentence is irrelevant, as if there are some things He doesn't know. But given your scenario that there is "some thing God already knew", then which Scriptures would not be in the Word, specifically? I really can't imagine what you're suggesting.

if it was just God causing everything, then all the believe this scriptures would be missing.

What does " then all the believe this scriptures would be missing" mean? Did you forget to put quotation marks around "believe this scriptures"? If you didn't intend to use quotation marks, your sentence makes no sense at all.

 

[Ricko]

inability to follow along is disturbing.

If you know something, but go through with it, it is called "Causing" If God Knows Adam will blow it yet puts Adam in the Garden, then God caused it. God's Garden, God's Conditions, God's Tree of Good and evil. If God knew the outcome, then God is the author of death, not Adam.

If God predetermined Adam to blow it, then no question God's fault.

If you don't understand my examples, then how the heck you understand foreknowledge of your car running out of Gas when it's on empty? You just not buy gas? or, you just get this way talking about God?

I find it hard to believe my examples were really that hard to follow.

We have free will to choose. We often choose wrong and that's where evil comes in. He intends us to learn from our mistakes. Let's follow your reasoning and apply it elsewhere. Why would any parent let their child learn to walk? We all know that that child will fall before he learns, right? That poor child may even get hurt before he masters walking. According to you we shouldn't let our children try to walk because we know they are going to fall. We should protect these kids and keep them strapped into a safe place. What would others think if we let them hurt themselves?

 

[Brother Mike]

We have free will to choose. We often choose wrong and that's where evil comes in. He intends us to learn from our mistakes. Let's follow your reasoning and apply it elsewhere. Why would any parent let their child learn to walk? We all know that that child will fall before he learns, right? That poor child may even get hurt before he masters walking. According to you we shouldn't let our children try to walk because we know they are going to fall. We should protect these kids and keep them strapped into a safe place. What would others think if we let them hurt themselves?

Ricko, I am reading your response back over and over. I don't know what to say. I am amazed and overwhelmed that you see so clearly.

There is this demonic blindness that keeps people seeing he nature of God, for who He is, and what he can do, and does know. I see this in FreeGrace to the point He does not even understand simple examples middle school children could follow. You will see it in many others, point them to scripture and they will reword it back to what the blindness tells them.

It's not that complicated at all though, and that is the disturbing thing. Simple verses where God shows us he hears Cries in heaven. Do a study on cries, and you will see it.

Gen 18:20-21 kjva 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

How is God going to find out? There is they great cry coming up to him, He hears it. So He is going to personally GO DOWN and check it out to see if what He is hearing Matches what is actually going on. God says, then i'll know.

That is not foreknowledge, or predestination. God is telling us how he knows, how he operates, and what we should expect.

Job 34:28 kjva So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him, and he heareth the cry of the afflicted.

Psa 145:19 kjva He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

When does God save them? After he hears their cry.

If God has foreknowledge of everything, then God would have saved them before their suffering that caused them to cry. He was going to save them anyway, why let the suffer?

Someone might say, God was waiting to see of they would call out to him. That is why He waited. But wait a minute, if God knows everything, then He already knew they would cry out to him, and that He would save them.

Not one time have I ever set up something for my daughter knowing she would get hurt on it. I set it up knowing she won't.

Nobody likes to say God is evil, so they twist things up in the land of confusing trying to explain their election, or foreknowledge doctrines that came from a confused time back in the early 1500's If God has foreknowedge of all things, then God is evil, and wasted his time sending us his word to heal us and deliver us from our own destructions.

As you said, we often don't make choices that end up well, and as I told the wife, if every choice I made was right and good, then I would not need Jesus, or a advoctate to stand up for me. I still need him, and I still need his help as I don't follow him perfectly like most everyone else. Getting better at it though, but not water proof yet.

The good news!!!!!

In the OT, God had no idea what was going on with man until he checked it out, or got a report from the angels. He found men that would obey him and keep watch on them personally. People were not filled with the Holy Spirit but the Spirit came on them from time to time.

Man had broken that connection between Him and God. Jesus fixed that.

Eph 2:16-18 kjva 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

So now we have direct and constant access through the Spirit to the Father. The Holy Spirit speaks that which He hears, and What we see, God knows and see's. It use to not be that way, and why Jesus is so important for every person on the planet.

Thank you for blessing me with your post. I was getting concerned about some folks here and thought there is none that understand.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is this demonic blindness that keeps people seeing he nature of God, for who He is, and what he can do, and does know.

What is demonic is denying God's attribute of omniscience.

I see this in FreeGrace to the point He does not even understand simple examples middle school children could follow. You will see it in many others, point them to scripture and they will reword it back to what the blindness tells them.

Your non-examples have no relevance to God's omniscience. But you don't understand that.

In the OT, God had no idea what was going on with man until he checked it out, or got a report from the angels.

Since God is omniscient your claims are patently false.

 

[Gregg]

If God has foreknowledge of everything, then God would have saved them before their suffering that caused them to cry. He was going to save them anyway, why let the suffer?

Mike,
God had foreknowledge of everything before He created anything.

"according as He chose us [to be] in Him before the foundation of the world . . ." (Eph 1:4).

". . . according to His own purpose and grace given to us in Christ Jesus before eternal times," (2Tim 1:9 LITV).

"indeed having been foreknown before the foundation of the world . . ." (1Pet 1:20 LITV).

In the OT, God had no idea what was going on with man until he checked it out, or got a report from the angels.

Do you think Adam's sin in the Garden was unexpected by God?

Is God sovereign over all things?

 

[Brother Mike]

Mike,
God had foreknowledge of everything before He created anything.

"according as He chose us [to be] in Him before the foundation of the world . . ." (Eph 1:4).

". . . according to His own purpose and grace given to us in Christ Jesus before eternal times," (2Tim 1:9 LITV).

"indeed having been foreknown before the foundation of the world . . ." (1Pet 1:20 LITV).





Do you think Adam's sin in the Garden was unexpected by God?

Is God sovereign over all things?

Hey Greg, glad to meet you. I am very serious about the Word, and scripture only, not religion. You don't take a few scriptures and ignore other scriptures. That is what Calvinist–Arminian have done, there is another, but it's a bit out there and not popular.

God is sovereign over all things is not a scripture, and sovereign is made up by men and depending on what doctrine, Defines what exactly Sovereign means, none of it in scripture.

I don't mind talking about this with you, the problem with these doctrines is that they are a no fault religion doctrines. They are based on man not wanting to take spiritual responsibility over what happens to them. After all, if God wants you sick to build character, or test your faith, then bless God your gonna be sick. Some say God knows if your going to get well or not, not up to us, but whatever that outcome may be that God already knows, He is mysterious in all his ways, who could figure it out?

God is none of these things, and no, God did not know Adam was going to blow it. The possibility was always there of course, as God put the tree in the Garden, but Adam was not suppose to disobey him.

There is no scripture that God had foreknowledge before he created everything either, more stuff made up by men, God lives outside of time, bla, bla, bla.

The son of God, by whom all things were created and through him were all things made was in the plan before the foundation of the World. The Worlds were even made for him.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Heb 1:1-2)

Everything was chosen to be subject under him before the foundation of the World whom he was ordained (Greek word meaning known before hand) before the earth was made.

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
(Col 1:16-17)

Everything made was for him before the earth was even formed, all things consisted in him before the World begin.

Lords, principalities, authorities, everything is elected to be in Christ Jesus. Not some picking and choosing or some foreknowledge of those that would and those that would not. EVERYTHING.

Adam blew it, separated Man from God. That did not change the plan though, as all things are under him, and every knee will bow.

So, was those that believed on Jesus designed to serve God with a purpose? yep. As everything ever made is designed to be under Jesus.
Are we foreordained before the foundation of the Word to be in Jesus? Yep, sure are. God choose everything to be in the Son, just like the scripture said.

None of it says God picked and choose anyone to make it or not. Jesus said whosoever believers gets put in the body of Christ, for God's purpose as He places us where he wants.

We don't ignore 30 scriptures and focus on 8. They all have to fit, and there is no contradictions in the Word. That is the issue with Religion, and bad doctrines, they bypass a bunch of scriptures to prove something that is not so.

Did God know Adam would blow it? Was that so Jesus could be sent and the Father save us through the son?

Zero scriptures denote that was the case.

If God knew ahead of time Adam would blow it, then the conditions of the Garden were unfair, and God gets the blame for all the sin and death. Scripture says Adam caused it, not God.

If God predestined Adam to blow it without choice, then God's fault again for sure. Calvinist make things easy and to the point, one thing I like about them. God is no better than Satan then, and God was unjust to Satan for cursing him in the Garden. Satan did as he was programmed to do.

I submit that God is not to blame, and not at all evil. Man did things to themselves.

Blessings.

 

[FreeGrace]

If God knew ahead of time Adam would blow it, then the conditions of the Garden were unfair, and God gets the blame for all the sin and death. Scripture says Adam caused it, not God.

Your unbiblical view is driven by your faulty understanding of words. God's knowing something (Adam would blow it) doesn't mean God caused it. Why do you think it does? Do you understand the principle of permission? Seems that you do not.

If God predestined Adam to blow it without choice, then God's fault again for sure.

God didn't predestine Adam to blow it. He allowed him to. For reasons you seem totally ignorant of.

I submit that God is not to blame, and not at all evil. Man did things to themselves.

Of course He is not to blame. Nor evil. And, yes, man surely did all these things to himself.

Why you claim that God is not omniscient is quite puzzling. Your view of God is unbiblical. Because your understanding of His Word is lacking.

 

[smaller]

Fact 1: It is mandatory to be a sinner in order to be 'in truth.'

1 John 1:8 advises us that we can NOT say we 'have' [present tense application] NO SIN and be in truth.

Paul shows us that sin indwelt his flesh in Romans 7:17-21, even showing that evil was present with him when he desired to do good, presumably all the time desiring to do good, being an Apostle and all.

No one ever becomes sinless, even temporarily, upon belief in Jesus Christ.

If Fact 1 is a scriptural fact, then all issues of being 'legal' under any law evaporates and discontinues any credible conversations of believers being either legal or sinless.

Then, Fact 2: There is no status of willfully continuing to sin, since no one stops being a sinner to begin with.

To put this matter to rest Paul shows himself to be the chief of sinners in 1 Tim. 1:15. Paul dragged himself to the bottom of the totem pole of sinners. And yes, that is a post salvation statement where Paul deployed the term as "I AM" [present tense] the chief of sinners, not "I was" or "I used to be."

enjoy!

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[Brother Mike]

Your unbiblical view is driven by your faulty understanding of words. God's knowing something (Adam would blow it) doesn't mean God caused it. Why do you think it does? Do you understand the principle of permission? Seems that you do not.


God didn't predestine Adam to blow it. He allowed him to. For reasons you seem totally ignorant of.


Of course He is not to blame. Nor evil. And, yes, man surely did all these things to himself.

Why you claim that God is not omniscient is quite puzzling. Your view of God is unbiblical. Because your understanding of His Word is lacking.

I am asking God for wisdom on how to explain to you on how this works. You believe some of the same things I believe.

You and I agree, God did not under his divine power and election cause Adam to sin in the Garden. We both agree God would not do that.
There are many out there that believe you and I would be wrong.

You say there is a law of permission.

God never gave Adam permission to eat from the tree. No more than I would give my son permission to go play in the street (If he was young again)

So, what you mean to say is not permission, but God instead allowed Adam to eat from the tree, knowing ahead of time Adam would do so.

You say it's permission, because God had power to stop Adam. God knowing Adam would disboey, simpley could have just plucked the tree out of the Garden, problem solved. Instead, God allowed Adam free choice and did nothing, Knowing before He placed man in the garden, Adam would sin against him.

Freegrace, that is like saying I know placing the baby near the edge of the pool they can fall in and drown. So I place the baby near the edge of the pool anyway and watch them drown.

I put up cookies and chips because I know my daughter will take them to her room and eat them all. She does this despite me telling her not to, and she is 7 and knows my rules on just eating junk until its gone. I take measures to protect her health because I know the temptation to find the cookies and just eat them all is to strong for her, despite her knowing better.

You make it sound as if God does not plan things out very well, and does things He knows will end in epic failure. God knew Adam would cause death and grief on this planet because of Adam sinning, yet God just places man in the garden anyway, is not to bright on God's part.

Not one time have I ever put something back together, anyway, knowing I was doing it wrong so it would not work again. If I know it's going to end up wrong, I avoid doing it.

I submit that God has always done everything perfect for man to have success, not failure, and not one time has God ever planned failure, or set up things knowing it will fail, unless man causes the failure on his own.

God tried to keep his promise to Abraham, Gathered Israel under Pharoah for 400 years until they became many, then delivered them out of Eqypt, split the red sea for them, fed them, promised them the land with milk and honey, made it so their shoes did not wear out, protected them from enemies, kept all the sickness away.

That does not sound like someone who knows they will eventually fail and not make it to the promise land. God is not stupid, to go through all that knowing it won't work anway.
God said I am breaching my promise to you, because of your unbelief.

God does not plan, or foreknow that He is every going to break a promise. He does not think that way, or even consider it. Man, changes the conditions along the way.

Scripture does not say God knows all mens actions from start to end. It says He knows all things about the heart. He even searches the earth for a heart perfect toward him so that he can show himself strong in that persons life.

He searches.......................... Not know beforehand.

God can tell us how many grains of sand are on the planet, can tell us how many hairs we have, knows how all things work down to the exact science of it.

The factor God also knows is the heart of man. Our real intentions, and thoughts, and how we act and how we will respond.

The thing about the heart though is that it can change for good or bad. That changes how God reponds.

God "FOUND" iniquity in Satan. Not knew before hand, not caused it. Found it. Satan was not created to disobey him.

 

[Gregg]

Your unbiblical view is driven by your faulty understanding of words. God's knowing something (Adam would blow it) doesn't mean God caused it. Why do you think it does? Do you understand the principle of permission? Seems that you do not.


God didn't predestine Adam to blow it. He allowed him to. For reasons you seem totally ignorant of.


Of course He is not to blame. Nor evil. And, yes, man surely did all these things to himself.

Why you claim that God is not omniscient is quite puzzling. Your view of God is unbiblical. Because your understanding of His Word is lacking.

I am in agreement, FreeGrace.

I do not understand how one places faith in a god who is not sovereign, all knowing, perfect in love, and full of grace and truth.