Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Hopeful]

Thanks for moving off the external and into the realm of factoring the unseen adversary at the heart of this issue.

The laws are much more interesting when we see the motions of sin and evil, which are demonically sourced, and are actually advanced by the laws.

Romans 7:
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

We don't hold up the law so that people will obey it. We hold it up so that they fail and fall.

That's the power of the law.

1 Cor. 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Jesus shows us exactly how this works. So does Paul.

The commandment comes. Then immediately resistance comes in our minds to that law, in many disguises I might add.

That resistance if from our adversary, the tempter. The law proves it. Not many believe it, unfortunately.

They are falsely led to think it's just them, there in their own minds. When nothing could be further from the truth

Thanks be to God we are no longer under the Law !

 

[Hopeful]

And you want to continue to read it as "I was" rather than as Paul said, "I am."

Paul does this not to diminish himself, but to point to the fact that we all engage temptations of the tempter internally, and the tempter is assuredly the worst sinner that has ever existed

You write as though being tempted is a sin.
Why?

 

[Hopeful]

I can assure you that God in Christ has let the evil present in NO ONE off the hook. No, not even in believers.

I accept the guilt and condemnation of the law, knowing it's sentence is DEATH

Thankfully we can experience that death with Christ at our baptism into His death.
It is written..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:3-5)
Once we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, temptations don't stand a chance of bringing forth evil fruit.

 

[Hopeful]

anyone who did not live by God's laws would have been rejected as the jewish Messiah - if the people were commanded to keep Gad's laws how much more so would Messiah have had to do so - and in fact God said so clearly - Matthew 5:17-20

Perhaps that was why they rejected Him.
He worked on the Sabbath.
He made Himself equal to God.
He forgave sins.
He renounced the dietary Laws.
I hope that they won't reject Him now for the same reasons.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yeah, sorry. I don't buy the "I am not a sinner" stories just like I didn't buy Nixon's "I am not a crook" story

Not that I expect too many to truthfully concede that evil thoughts defile us all, as Jesus said. But that's the crux of it

How can evil thoughts that are not acted upon defile us if they are only in our mind? Scriptures teaches us different as there is a big difference between thoughts of the mind that we can not control, but when those thoughts go to our heart then they are acted upon.


Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

 

[Truthfrees]

God's laws eternal - Psalm 111:7-8
God's laws are life - Proverbs 7:2 - Proverbs 4:22
Establish Gad's laws - Romans 3:31
Do and teach God's laws to be great - Matthew 5:19
Law not abolished - Matthew 5:17
Act and live by the law - James 2:12
The law does not save/justify - Romans 3:28
God's laws are pure/true/life/restoration - Psalm 19:7
Sin is still lawlessness - 1 John 3:4
Lawless ones are separated from God eternally - Matthew 7:23
If we love God we keep His commandments - 1 John 5:3
We know God if we keep His commandments - 1 John 2:3-4
The law is not for righteousness - faith is for righteousness - Romans 10:4
I delight in the law - Romans 7:22
Until heaven and earth pass away the law will not - Matthew 5:18
Breaking God's laws and teaching so makes one the least - Matthew 5:19
Keep God's law by Spirit/faith vs flesh/sin/death - Romans 8:2
God's law is spiritual the flesh is not - Romans 7:14
A person is justified by works and faith together - James 2:24
All scripture is God-breathed and useful for training - 2 Timothy 3:16
Walk in the Spirit and not flesh - Galatians 5:16

 

[Truthfrees]

Perhaps that was why they rejected Him.
He worked on the Sabbath.
He made Himself equal to God.
He forgave sins.
He renounced the dietary Laws.
I hope that they won't reject Him now for the same reasons.

Actually the people followed him and that made the religious leaders jealous - John 12:19

He said he wasn't abolishing the law so he wasn't - Matthew 5:17-20

he also said anyone who keeps God's laws and teaches them is great - Matthew 5:19

 

[Hopeful]

God's laws eternal - Psalm 111:7-8
God's laws are life - Proverbs 7:2 - Proverbs 4:22
Establish Gad's laws - Romans 3:31
Do and teach God's laws to be great - Matthew 5:19
Law not abolished - Matthew 5:17
Act and live by the law - James 2:12
The law does not save/justify - Romans 3:28
God's laws are pure/true/life/restoration - Psalm 19:7
Sin is still lawlessness - 1 John 3:4
Lawless ones are separated from God eternally - Matthew 7:23
If we love God we keep His commandments - 1 John 5:3
We know God if we keep His commandments - 1 John 2:3-4
The law is not for righteousness - faith is for righteousness - Romans 10:4
I delight in the law - Romans 7:22
Until heaven and earth pass away the law will not - Matthew 5:18
Breaking God's laws and teaching so makes one the least - Matthew 5:19
Keep God's law by Spirit/faith vs flesh/sin/death - Romans 8:2
God's law is spiritual the flesh is not - Romans 7:14
A person is justified by works and faith together - James 2:24
All scripture is God-breathed and useful for training - 2 Timothy 3:16
Walk in the Spirit and not flesh - Galatians 5:16

Is circumcision necessary for salvation?

 

[Hopeful]

Actually the people followed him and that made the religious leaders jealous - John 12:19

That is one of the reasons.

He said he wasn't abolishing the law so he wasn't - Matthew 5:17-20

He fulfilled it.

he also said anyone who keeps God's laws and teaches them is great - Matthew 5:19

He was also talking to OT men who were under the Law.
He was not addressing NT men who are dead to the Law.

 

[smaller]

How can evil thoughts that are not acted upon defile us if they are only in our mind?

Jesus said they do:

Matt. 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matt. 5:28

So did Paul:
Romans 7:7-13

And primary cause, shown here: Mark 4:15

 

[smaller]

Romans 3:19, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God." This refers to "those who are under the law", i.e., Jews. This doesn't apply to everyone and has nothing to do with driving "a solid stake of guilty through the hearts of everyone" (a very gruesome image!)

I can only point to Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4, Jesus' statements that man shall live by every word of God. Not just the ones we happen to like or dislike

 

[smaller]

So Jesus was defiled by evil thoughts?
I hope you can see the error of that line of thought, as Jesus, with those baptized into Him, don't allow evil thoughts to defile us or anyone else by us.
That is the testimony of the Lord's death and resurrection on earth today.

Jesus, the sole exception. Spotless

No one else gets to make that claim, in honesty anyway

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus said they do:

Matt. 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matt. 5:28

So did Paul:
Romans 7:7-13

And primary cause, shown here: Mark 4:15

Do you notice the word "heart" in all those verses?

It's only when the evil thoughts that enter our mind reaches the heart and are then acted on is what defiles us.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Nothing can proceed out of the mind as we can not control thoughts that pop in there, but we can control the actions that proceed out of the heart as we make choices.

 

[smaller]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God.

It's problematic to rule God out of anything in creation, seeing He created all things, and powers, etc. etc.

As to Pharaoh, I do not see Pharaoh as a freestanding individual in any case. He was subject to Mark 4:15 just like everyone else, and as such was a captive pawn, as noted by Paul in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and by John in 1 John 3:8

Pharaoh's are also a figures or similitude's of Satanic rule in the O.T.

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

 

[smaller]

Do you notice the word "heart" in all those verses?

It's only when the evil thoughts that enter our mind reaches the heart and are then acted on is what defiles us.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Nothing can proceed out of the mind as we can not control thoughts that pop in there, but we can control the actions that proceed out of the heart as we make choices.

The word heart does not seem to diminish evil thoughts as being defiling

 

[JLB]

And you want to continue to read it as "I was" rather than as Paul said, "I am."

Paul does this not to diminish himself, but to point to the fact that we all engage temptations of the tempter internally, and the tempter is assuredly the worst sinner that has ever existed

It’s about temptations from the tempter.



It’s you claiming the Apostle Paul, as well as all Christians are “sinners”, because you don’t know the difference between a sinner and a saint; in Christ or separated from Christ.


Your doctrine has everyone lumped into one category; sinner.


Paul claimed he was the chief sinner that Christ came to save.


Once a person is indeed saved; born again, and in Christ, they have been sanctified and cleansed by the blood of Jesus, and are now called a saint; a holy one.


Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:1

Saint — Strong's G40 - hagios

1. most holy thing, a saint

…just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:4




Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos​

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
   1. not free from sin
   2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
         1. tax collectors, heathen

Do you believe Paul was devoted to sin, and wicked; not free from sin?







JLB

 

[smaller]

Paul claimed he was the chief sinner that Christ came to save.

We seem to be having a continuing basic semantics issue at play here with Paul's presentation

Here is Paul's term:

1 Tim. 1:
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I am is not I was

If, as you seem to concede above, that temptations of the tempter do transpire in people, and yes, in believers, then there is little reason for me to ignore the sinner in that equation, the tempter. Why would I see only Paul? Answer: I don't. Paul himself said he engaged invisible agents, in particular, the devil:

Eph. 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[smaller]

Thanks be to God we are no longer under the Law !

The evil within all people remains under God's laws, both exposed, and condemned.

Which is a good thing, in my sight.

Heb. 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

There is always need for cleansing

 

[for_his_glory]

[ACMP=announcement]
A few of us have strayed from the topic of the OP about if the laws are dead, as I am guilty also.
For all of us that are discussing Satan, I made a new thread in Theology forum entitled "The fall of Lucifer/Satan". Let's move the discussion over to that thread as I will no longer reply here.

Thank you
[/ACMP]

 

[smaller]

You write as though being tempted is a sin.
Why?

The tempter is a sinner,1 John 3:8, , as are his acts, in mankind, sin, Mark 4:15