Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[smaller]

My point is that IMO you might have read all 613 laws within the Bible by just only reading your Bible, but do you know what all 613 laws are and where to find them in the scriptures?

This is very important to the topic of this thread.

All 613 laws are listed by Paul, in

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Where they are located and what they seem to say on the surface is irrelevant in the light of Paul's discourse.

Jesus said the same, in

Matthew 22:
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Paul said the law is spiritual and allegory, Romans 7:14, Gal. 4:24

Hos. 12:10 says that God spoke to the prophets employing similitude. Since Moses was also a prophet, his statements should be likewise considered, allegory, spiritual, parable, similitude.

Hosea 12:10

I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Jesus defined the word as parable:

Luke 8:11

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

As did the Spirit of Christ say in the O.T.

Psalm 78:2
I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Paul took an obscure law of the O.T. and turned the meaning of it completely on its head in

1 Cor. 9:
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Yet there is no such written law as Paul states in his spiritual translation of it in the O.T.

Now, tell me about the 613 laws in light of the above.

Needless to say I do not read a single one of them through external empirical lenses

 

[for_his_glory]

All 613 laws are listed by Paul, in

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Where they are located and what they seem to say on the surface is irrelevant in the light of Paul's discourse.

Jesus said the same, in

Matthew 22:
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Paul said the law is spiritual and allegory, Romans 7:14, Gal. 4:24

Hos. 12:10 says that God spoke to the prophets employing similitude. Since Moses was also a prophet, his statements should be likewise considered, allegory, spiritual, parable, similitude.

Hosea 12:10

I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Jesus defined the word as parable:

Luke 8:11

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

As did the Spirit of Christ say in the O.T.

Psalm 78:2
I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Paul took an obscure law of the O.T. and turned the meaning of it completely on its head in

1 Cor. 9:
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Yet there is no such written law as Paul states in his spiritual translation of it in the O.T.

Now, tell me about the 613 laws in light of the above.

Needless to say I do not read a single one of them through external empirical lenses

If we do not know all 613, which include the ten that many want to separate from them, then how do we know which ones are yet to be followed. Love is only the greatest commandment of all 613. If we could just keep this one commandment then we would know which ones we are all to keep. Here is a break down of how many laws are within the 34 Categories. You can find this at 613 laws

Love and Brotherhood are numbered from 26-39 in the listing of the 613.

The first ten pertain to God:
1. To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1). See What Do Jews Believe?.
2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3) (CCN8). See What Do Jews Believe?.
3. Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).
4. To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCA5). See The Name of G-d.
5. Not to profane G-d's name (Lev . 22:32) (CCN155). See The Name of G-d.
6. To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) (CCA2). See What Do Jews Believe?.
7. To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) (CCA3). See What Do Jews Believe?.
8. To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) (CCA4).
9. Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).
10. To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9) (CCA6).
Torah

There are 6 laws in Torah, 5 in Signs and Symbols, 4 in Prayer and Blessings, 13 in the Poor and Unfortunate, 6 in Treatment of Gentiles, 23 in Marriage, Divorce and Family, 25 in Forbidden Sexual Relations, 36 in Times and Seasons, 27 in Dietary Laws, 14 in Business Practices, 19 in Employees, Servants and Slaves, 7 in Vows, Oaths and Swearing, 17 in The Sabbatical and Jubilee Years, 36 in The Court and Judicial Procedure, 4 in Injuries and Damages, 11 in Property and Property Rights, 7 in Criminal Laws, 24 in Punishment and Restitution, 3 in Prophecy, 46 in Idolatry, Idolaters and Idolatrous Practices, 7 in Agriculture and Animal Husbandry. 3 in Clothing, 4 in The Firstborn, 30 in Kohanim and Levites, 24 in T'rumah, Tithes and Taxes, 33 in The Temple, the Sanctuary and Sacred Objects. 102 in Sacrifices and Offerings, 16 in Ritual Purity and Impurity, 4 in Lepers and Leprosy, 7 in The King, 10 in Nazarites, 16 in Wars.

 

[smaller]

If we do not know all 613, which include the ten that many want to separate from them, then how do we know which ones are yet to be followed. Love is only the greatest commandment of all 613. If we could just keep this one commandment then we would know which ones we are all to keep. Here is a break down of how many laws are within the 34 Categories. You can find this at 613 laws

If we read every command as Paul defined for us to read them in Romans 13:9, there is no use to denigrate or discard a single law of them, and I doubt too many other than folks who insist on strictly literal external sight impositions would disagree

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus, the sole exception. Spotless

No one else gets to make that claim, in honesty anyway

Too bad you think that way, in spite of verses like..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:12)
Jesus came and condemned sin while in the flesh, (Rom 8:3), and in Him, we partake of that victory.
It is written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)

Do you believe?

 

[Truthfrees]

the 613 is a moniker - every group chooses a different 613 - God never called them the 613 because He said to live by EVERY word that comes out of His mouth which is far more than 613 recorded

there was a a good list by kawalski.com or something like that but i can't find it

this one is the next best thing to show how awesome God's laws are

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

many of the civil and criminal laws of many countries are based on God's laws because most cultures agree there has never been such profoundly wise laws to live by - NOT to be saved by - no one ever said God's laws were for salvation but paul - why did paul say such a strange thing? - jews know God never said this - anyone who lives by God's laws knows God never said this - so what exactly was paul talking about? -

paul also said when anyone hears God's laws sin immediately rises up in them - strange also? - has anyone here ever started to hate God when you heard the command to love God? - again what is paul talking about? -

paul said there was no sin before God's laws but God says the reason He brought the flood was that people were evil all the time centuries before the torah laws were given to moses - Genesis 6:5 - so what is paul talking about

God said keeping God's laws and teaching others likewise makes one great in God's kingdom - Matthew 5:19 - paul seems to say the opposite

so is paul contradicting God continuously or are people misunderstanding what paul is really talking about?

 

[Hopeful]

The evil within all people remains under God's laws, both exposed, and condemned.

Which is a good thing, in my sight.

Heb. 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

There is always need for cleansing

If the need for cleansing never goes away, then Jesus died for nothing.
The need for cleansing was part and parcel of the OT.
You seem to be assuming we are all still living in the past covenant.
I live under a new covenant, in which, by our faith in Christ Jesus we can resist temptations unto death.
Those "in Christ" have no evil in them, as there is no evil "in Christ".
If one wants do be, or do evil, they are not in Christ.
They are still under the Law.

 

[Hopeful]

The tempter is a sinner,1 John 3:8, , as are his acts, in mankind, sin, Mark 4:15

I agree, the devil is a sinner.
But, thanks be to God, we have the power to resist the devil and he will flee. (James 4:7)..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
Submit yourself to God, and the tempter will flee from you.

 

[Hopeful]

the 613 is a moniker - every group chooses a different 613 - God never called them the 613 because He said to live by EVERY word that comes out of His mouth which is far more than 613 recorded

there was a a good list by kawalski.com or something like that but i can't find it

this one is the next best thing to show how awesome God's laws are

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

many of the civil and criminal laws of many countries are based on God's laws because most cultures agree there has never been such profoundly wise laws to live by - NOT to be saved by - no one ever said God's laws were for salvation but paul - why did paul say such a strange thing? - jews know God never said this - anyone who lives by God's laws knows God never said this - so what exactly was paul talking about? -

paul also said when anyone hears God's laws sin immediately rises up in them - strange also? - has anyone here ever started to hate God when you heard the command to love God? - again what is paul talking about? -

paul said there was no sin before God's laws but God says the reason He brought the flood was that people were evil all the time centuries before the torah laws were given to moses - Genesis 6:5 - so what is paul talking about

God said keeping God's laws and teaching others likewise makes one great in God's kingdom - Matthew 5:19 - paul seems to say the opposite

so is paul contradicting God continuously or are people misunderstanding what paul is really talking about?

Jesus and Paul were speaking from different perspectives.
Jesus from the OT and Paul from the NT.

 

[Hopeful]

Circumcision of the heart? Yes. Circumcision of the foreskin? No.

Agreed, but you lost the context from which I was writing to someone else.

 

[Truthfrees]

Jesus and Paul were speaking from different perspectives.
Jesus from the OT and Paul from the NT.

so God goes into that category? - God is ot and paul is nt? - so basically paul says things that contradicts God? - rather than people misunderstanding paul? - peter said people misunderstand paul - 2 Peter 3:16

didn't the apostles state they must obey God rather than man? - Acts 4:19 - could you blame anyone for obeying God rather that what you are saying paul is saying?

 

[for_his_glory]

If we read every command as Paul defined for us to read them in Romans 13:9, there is no use to denigrate or discard a single law of them, and I doubt too many other than folks who insist on strictly literal external sight impositions would disagree

Paul and all the new covenant saints from the day of Pentecost and up to the time of Christ return are still under the moral parts of the 613 laws. If we could only keep the greatest command of God which is to love then we will carry out to the T the moral parts. Do you know which one's those are? We are to fulfill the moral parts of the laws through love as in what Paul is teaching in Romans 13:8-11, he only list 5, but not the full as an example of what we are to follow.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Jesus has already fulfilled those parts. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.​

 

[Hopeful]

so God goes into that category? - God is ot and paul is nt?

Not God, but Jesus was OT; and Paul is now part of the NT.
If Jesus gave a command today, it would be a NT commandment.

- so basically paul says things that contradicts God? - rather than people misunderstanding paul? - didn't the apostles state they must obey God rather than man? - Acts 4:19 - could you blame anyone for obeying God rather that what you are saying paul is saying?

Some things of the OT don't apply to us.
God's commands concerning temple worship and priesthoods are no longer part of the NT man's life.
They counted for a lot in the OT, but not anymore.
God's commandments concerning sacrifices involving animals no longer need be accomplished since Jesus' final sacrifice for sin.
So many OT things were "pictures" of upcoming things.
Things fulfilled by Jesus Christ.
They are, however, no longer relevant to daily, or yearly, life.

 

[for_his_glory]

the 613 is a moniker - every group chooses a different 613 - God never called them the 613 because He said to live by EVERY word that comes out of His mouth which is far more than 613 recorded

there was a a good list by kawalski.com or something like that but i can't find it

this one is the next best thing to show how awesome God's laws are

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

many of the civil and criminal laws of many countries are based on God's laws because most cultures agree there has never been such profoundly wise laws to live by - NOT to be saved by - no one ever said God's laws were for salvation but paul - why did paul say such a strange thing? - jews know God never said this - anyone who lives by God's laws knows God never said this - so what exactly was paul talking about? -

paul also said when anyone hears God's laws sin immediately rises up in them - strange also? - has anyone here ever started to hate God when you heard the command to love God? - again what is paul talking about? -

paul said there was no sin before God's laws but God says the reason He brought the flood was that people were evil all the time centuries before the torah laws were given to moses - Genesis 6:5 - so what is paul talking about

God said keeping God's laws and teaching others likewise makes one great in God's kingdom - Matthew 5:19 - paul seems to say the opposite

so is paul contradicting God continuously or are people misunderstanding what paul is really talking about?

That is a great website to learn from. I've had it bookmarked for years.

 

[Truthfrees]

Not God, but Jesus was OT; and Paul is now part of the NT.
If Jesus gave a command today, it would be a NT commandment.

Some things of the OT don't apply to us.
God's commands concerning temple worship and priesthoods are no longer part of the NT man's life.
They counted for a lot in the OT, but not anymore.
God's commandments concerning sacrifices involving animals no longer need be accomplished since Jesus' final sacrifice for sin.
So many OT things were "pictures" of upcoming things.
Things fulfilled by Jesus Christ.
They are, however, no longer relevant to daily, or yearly, life.

so let the land lay fallow was about upcoming things?

don't kill is about upcoming things?

those who live by God's laws find them very applicable to real life

 

[Hopeful]

so let the land lay fallow was about upcoming things?

don't kill is about upcoming things?

those who live by God's laws find them very applicable to real life

How do you find animal sacrifice applicable to "real" life?
The big 9 commandments are written on our hearts without the Mosaic Law being in effect.
They occur naturally in those with the new divine nature.
But wearing blue and abstaining from pork don't make a man More holy.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus and Paul were speaking from different perspectives.
Jesus from the OT and Paul from the NT.

I can't agree with this. God gave Jesus what to speak and do, John 12:49-50, as Jesus taught the Apostles, the Apostles teach all of us that which God gave to the Prophets and Disciples to write. None of them strayed away from God's word. Many do misinterpret some of Paul's teachings, but if we read the full context we will then see what Paul is teaching are those things God has given him to write. Paul might have written a large portion of the NT, but yet God's word never changes, nor did Paul change anything.

We are not followers of Paul, but of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

How do you find animal sacrifice applicable to "real" life?
The big 9 commandments are written on our hearts without the Mosaic Law being in effect.
They occur naturally in those with the new divine nature.
But wearing blue and abstaining from pork don't make a man More holy.

The ten commandments are a part of the 613, not a separate set we are to follow.

 

[Truthfrees]

How do you find animal sacrifice applicable to "real" life?
The big 9 commandments are written on our hearts without the Mosaic Law being in effect.
They occur naturally in those with the new divine nature.
But wearing blue and abstaining from pork don't make a man More holy.

i didn't say it makes anyone holy in the way you mean it - i said God said it and it is the wisest thing to do in every aspect

but since you brought it up holy means set apart for God's use and glory - so for sure living by every word that comes out of the mouth of God will cause you to be set apart from the world as someone who is a testimony of God's awesomeness -

the temple laws and sacrifices were only when there was a temple - there is no temple so there is no temple laws that can be kept - God was very specific about everything He said

 

[Hopeful]

I can't agree with this. God gave Jesus what to speak and do, John 12:49-50, as Jesus taught the Apostles, the Apostles teach all of us that which God gave to the Prophets and Disciples to write. None of them strayed away from God's word. Many do misinterpret some of Paul's teachings, but if we read the full context we will then see what Paul is teaching are those things God has given him to write. Paul might have written a large portion of the NT, but yet God's word never changes, nor did Paul change anything.

We are not followers of Paul, but of Christ.

Are you obeying all that the Pharisees and scribes command you? (Matt 23:3)
Those were Jesus' commands to His disciples.
Some of the things spoken by Jesus were for the folks around Him, and don't apply to us.
Jesus spoke from the time He was in.
So did Paul.
Sometimes their words were meant for just those of their own times.
I thank God I am in Paul's NT times.

 

[Hopeful]

The ten commandments are a part of the 613, not a separate set we are to follow.

Are you sacrificing animals for your sins? (as you don't believe we can walk sinlessly)
Can't we follow the big 9 without doing animal sacrifices?