Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[jaybo]

Quick citings from Jesus on the subject:
Matthew 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matthew 5:28

Abundantly clear that evil thoughts defile us. It's not debatable. Paul had them, openly admitted to in Romans 7:7-13. I very much appreciate his honesty


It's really a question to you by your own conscience. The only question from that point is, is your conscience honest or is it not?

I have no cause to judge any believer. I have every cause to point to the fact that we all are internally tempted in mind by the tempter, and condemn the tempters thoughts, words and actions in anyone, PRIMARILY IN MY OWN SORRY HIDE

I know. Most are not used to applying condemnation to themselves. But if you can see past yourself to the cause, it's actually quite entirely enjoyable.

I don't understand why you think it's appropriate to apply condemnation to one's self. It's in contradiction to Scripture...

John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Romans 5:16, "Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification."

Romans 8:1, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"

Romans 8:34, "Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."

Colossians 2:13-14, " When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross."

1 John 3:19-21, "This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God"

Finally, I find that condemning one's self is definitely, definitely not actually enjoyable. It is against the will of God.

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus was exceptionally clear that man shall live by every word of God.

Agreed, words like..."But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Rom 7:6)

IF that word happens to be against evil, and we have an evil conscience, evil thoughts, etc. Even though the law convicts us all in this regards, it's still our ally to point it out to us.

I thank God for freeing me from an evil conscience by repentance from past sins and the new divine nature of the reborn man who walks in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

As to your imposed sights of the law, I'd suggest better avenues of understanding it. Empirical external exercises and sights of the law are only for the natural carnal slave minds to see. They are intentionally misled by their own evil conscience.

Thanks be to God for freedom from sin, and thereby from an evil conscience.
I rejoice in the fact I am no longer carnally minded, but spiritually minded.
As it is written..."For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Life and peace are very good !

I have no issues with the law or any Word of God being applicable to me, and to all. Yes, even if that law or His Words bring guilt and condemnation. I have no issues with these sights. It is only the blinded guilty who RUN from the honest conclusions or deny the obvious facts that the laws brings forth. That being our evil conscience, which is fwiw, demonically sourced.

What you seem to be "running from" is freedom from sin.

Short version: If the LAW is against the devils, bring it baby!

The Law was to show us we needed to be Godly.
It also showed us we can't be...while "in the flesh".

And I don't know how YOU concluded Jesus had sin.

I concluded no such thing.

Obviously God Himself is the sole exception.

Jesus was the first to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
We can all do it now, thanks to Him.

It's a very short deception hop from thinking you are sinless to thinking you are Jesus. You're not. Neither am I. Neither is any other phony claimant.

Thank God the elect can't be deceived.

As to walking in darkness and light. Welcome to the club. Everyone has both good and evil works, period, no exceptions. Paul gave us an honest standard on this subject in Romans 7, particularly vs. 17-21.

Walk in one or the other, as we can't walk in both at the same time.

You seem to still be struggling with this very elemental concept, that if we have internal temptations via the tempter, that places the worst sinner that has ever existed within our minds to do so. Mark 4:15 is REAL. And will remain so until Satan and his own are put away in the lake of fire.

Temptation, the devil's tool to lure us off the narrow path, can be resisted.
The temptations don't come from us, they come from the devil.

Believers are forgiven, not even having sins accounted to us.

We don't have our past sins accounted to us, after they have been washed away by the blood of Christ.
If our repentance from sin was real, we won't sin again.

BUT the big but also walks in our same shoes, that being the tempter.

If the devil is walking in you, you are not walking in Christ, or in the light.
There is a remedy for that.

When Jesus said He's in the midst of us, that picture is meant to be "internal" not you and a christian buddy. He's between us and the tempter. And I doubt you or anyone else would reasonably disagree with any of these conclusions, once acclimated to speak honestly about temptations and these being of the tempter, and internal in nature.

The past nature.
The old nature "passed away" as 2 Cor 5:17 makes clear..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Those walking in Light, in God, in Christ, don't give in to temptations from the devil.
We resist them, and the devil flees. (James 4:7)
Thanks be to God.

 

[Hopeful]

Most believers are falsely led by Satan to readily dismiss or ignore their evil thoughts.

Actually, the devil will lead us into temptation instead of away from them.
You don't make any sense.

But you see the source of them is Satan, so it's entirely reasonable that Satan will hide and cover up the fact in the minds of people who are led that direction.
The Light of God's Words does expose "them"
Them being devils.
We can readily observe this in the life of Jesus, and if we follow Him, we will engage similarly

Engage with Christ in resistance to the temptations.
To the glory of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, if you want to keep your name in the book of life.

And you think there are no morally laws within the 613 that we are to be obedient to as we are to be obedient to the greatest commandment of all of them

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes, if you want to keep your name in the book of life.

How does one lose their name in the Book of Life?

 

[for_his_glory]

I find few believers can admit that they have evil thoughts that defile them, or that evil is present withIN them ala Romans 7:21, or that they have an evil conscience ala Heb. 10:22, and even less that are able to attribute these to the tempter, and condemn them.

I don't know who is teaching you this stuff as we have asked you, but you will not tell us, but it clearly comes against that which defiles a man as taught in Matthew 15:10-20. Evil thoughts are only thoughts that pop into our minds at times as they can not defile us unless we take action upon those thoughts by having an evil heart. One with an evil heart is not God's own.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Evil is always present with us as Satan will never quit tempting us trying to steal our faith. This was Paul's thorn in the flesh like it is all our thorns in the flesh, but we have overcome the flesh through the blood of Christ, 2 Corinthians 12:1-10. The inward man of God is the Spiritual housing of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. Sin, which is only in our members (flesh) is where the sin nature dwells, but if we mortify the flesh there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, Romans 8:1-17.

I can understand that you believe what you have been taught by whoever teaches you, but they are teaching a different gospel that contradicts the gospel of Christ Jesus and His doctrines as many of us have shown you. I am asking that you no longer bring these teachings in here, but to read the word for what is written in its full context.

I know you have a heart for the Lord and you want to please Him, but I believe you have been deceived by those teachings you follow. I would truly like it if you could tell us who teaches you these things.

 

[jaybo]

Quick citings from Jesus on the subject:
Matthew 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matthew 5:28

Abundantly clear that evil thoughts defile us. It's not debatable. Paul had them, openly admitted to in Romans 7:7-13. I very much appreciate his honesty


It's really a question to you by your own conscience. The only question from that point is, is your conscience honest or is it not?

I have no cause to judge any believer. I have every cause to point to the fact that we all are internally tempted in mind by the tempter, and condemn the tempters thoughts, words and actions in anyone, PRIMARILY IN MY OWN SORRY HIDE

I know. Most are not used to applying condemnation to themselves. But if you can see past yourself to the cause, it's actually quite entirely enjoyable.

When I see the word "most" my reaction: is how do you know this? Have you actually done a survey of Christendom and found that most Christians "are not used to applying condemnation to themselves"?

Regarding Romans 7, Paul is writing about the struggle of a person prior to becoming a Christian. You should continue on to the next chapter...

Romans 8:1-8, NASB:"Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

 

[Hopeful]

And you think there are no moral laws within the 613 that we are to be obedient to as we are to be obedient to the greatest commandment of all of them

Are there any that are not covered by...Love God with all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself?

 

[Hopeful]

How does one lose their name in the Book of Life?

Commit a sin.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Commit a sin.

This is the theology forum.
Can you quote scripture that says this?

 

[smaller]

I don't understand why you think it's appropriate to apply condemnation to one's self. It's in contradiction to Scripture...

I'd suggest you're missing the link in the conversation.

Read Mark 4:15. I believe this applies to everyone, per Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 and Romans 3:9 and 1 John 3:8

NOW, in the above scriptures, who should be condemned? Hated? Resisted?

Is it ourselves? No. Paul pointed to this working in his own flesh and termed it "no longer I" in Romans 7:17-21

Now, ask yourself, WHO exactly is "no longer I?"

The scriptures cited above clearly point out the answer, but as noted, Mark 4:15 is real and people do get stolen from

John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Romans 5:16, "Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification."

Romans 8:1, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"

Romans 8:34, "Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."

Colossians 2:13-14, " When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross."

1 John 3:19-21, "This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God"

Finally, I find that condemning one's self is definitely, definitely not actually enjoyable. It is against the will of God.

I'd suggest both sides of the scriptural equations apply to everyone. Not just the side we like to slather ourselves with.

We can stand, both entirely justified, and even more interestingly, entirely CONDEMNED

Now, start over with the scriptures above, and figure out how that can be. It should be really clear, but it's not.

And here is why: No believer likes to admit their evil thoughts defile them, and even fewer can say that their defilement is from the adversary, the tempter, the devil, working internally in their mind.

Hitting the nail on the head is no affront to any believer

 

[smaller]

Agreed, words like..."But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Rom 7:6)

Do you think the Spirit of the letter exemplified in Romans 13:8-10 is not required of us?

Think again. It's the only thing that matters, not only in the now, but in eternity, forever.

I thank God for freeing me from an evil conscience by repentance from past sins and the new divine nature of the reborn man who walks in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

God did not free anyone in this present life from temptations of the tempter that transpire internally.

You are welcome to claim God exempted you, but countless believers will testify on this subject truthfully, if not here, on the other side of this present life.

Believers love to soft soap the words they don't care to hear, such as:

Colossians 3:3

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Those who claim they presently have it all are talking utter nonsense.

Here's what such claimants really have, but deny it:

Rev. 3:
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Thanks be to God for freedom from sin, and thereby from an evil conscience.
I rejoice in the fact I am no longer carnally minded, but spiritually minded.
As it is written..."For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Life and peace are very good !

What you seem to be "running from" is freedom from sin.

The Law was to show us we needed to be Godly.
It also showed us we can't be...while "in the flesh".

I concluded no such thing.

Jesus was the first to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
We can all do it now, thanks to Him.

Thank God the elect can't be deceived.

Walk in one or the other, as we can't walk in both at the same time.

Temptation, the devil's tool to lure us off the narrow path, can be resisted.
The temptations don't come from us, they come from the devil.

We don't have our past sins accounted to us, after they have been washed away by the blood of Christ.
If our repentance from sin was real, we won't sin again.

If the devil is walking in you, you are not walking in Christ, or in the light.
There is a remedy for that.

The past nature.
The old nature "passed away" as 2 Cor 5:17 makes clear..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Those walking in Light, in God, in Christ, don't give in to temptations from the devil.
We resist them, and the devil flees. (James 4:7)
Thanks be to God.

We really have just one basic difference in sight, and it's a fairly simple one to come to grips with for anyone that recognizes it's present day applicability to "all of us"

It's Mark 4:15

Satan is a sinner. THE LAW is for SINNERS. That means the law is also AGAINST SATAN

And as such, it stands, more solid than any rock that can be conceived of

You can claim the LAW doesn't apply to you, but the instant you conceed that the tempter does tempt you in mind, then that law falls heavily upon your own mind, because it's not just all about YOU

 

[smaller]

I don't know who is teaching you this stuff as we have asked you, but you will not tell us, but it clearly comes against that which defiles a man as taught in Matthew 15:10-20. Evil thoughts are only thoughts that pop into our minds at times as they can not defile us unless we take action upon those thoughts by having an evil heart. One with an evil heart is not God's own.

First of all, no one here has asked me who is teaching me this stuff, but in response, I would believe nothing unless I see it in writing, in the scriptures. I make my living in contract law and am very very fond of the "fine print" and applies multiple fold to the scriptures.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Evil is always present with us as Satan will never quit tempting us

Well, you know, if you just saw and agreed with that one bold line of yours above, we'd have zero issues about any scriptural subject.

You see it's not just people "standing here" on earth. It's people and the TEMPTER.

Now follow the logic here and marvel: The LAW is for SINNERS. Satan is assuredly A SINNER. Satan is also moved by THE LAW to resist the LAW, per Mark 4:15, primarily by theft, but we also know by deception and lies and even murder.

NOW ask me if THE LAW stands and I can only say, oh yes indeed it does, and it is absolute in it's resolve against the LAWLESS, not even allowing the slightest fault or violation.

I know you have a heart for the Lord and you want to please Him, but I believe you have been deceived by those teachings you follow. I would truly like it if you could tell us who teaches you these things.

And I believe you just stuck one foot into the same space that I write about

IF you accept the condemnation of the LAW against the LAWLESS, you are accepting the condemnation of the devil and his messengers, and for that we should all be:

RAISING THE LAW STANDARD EVEN HIGHER!

 

[for_his_glory]

Are there any that are not covered by...Love God with all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself?

So, you are then saying with this statement that we are to be true to the moral laws that still exist today and if this is what you are saying then we are to still keep parts of the law that pertain to prayers, blessings and brotherhood that I have repeatedly given.

 

[jaybo]

I'd suggest you're missing the link in the conversation.

Read Mark 4:15. I believe this applies to everyone, per Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 and Romans 3:9 and 1 John 3:8

NOW, in the above scriptures, who should be condemned? Hated? Resisted?

Is it ourselves? No. Paul pointed to this working in his own flesh and termed it "no longer I" in Romans 7:17-21

Now, ask yourself, WHO exactly is "no longer I?"

The scriptures cited above clearly point out the answer, but as noted, Mark 4:15 is real and people do get stolen from

I'd suggest both sides of the scriptural equations apply to everyone. Not just the side we like to slather ourselves with.

We can stand, both entirely justified, and even more interestingly, entirely CONDEMNED

Now, start over with the scriptures above, and figure out how that can be. It should be really clear, but it's not.

And here is why: No believer likes to admit their evil thoughts defile them, and even fewer can say that their defilement is from the adversary, the tempter, the devil, working internally in their mind.

Hitting the nail on the head is no affront to any believer

"We can stand, both entirely justified, and even more interestingly, entirely CONDEMNED" is impossible. You're one or the other.

Now, start over with the scriptures above, and figure out how that can be. It should be really clear, but it's not.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So, you are then saying with this statement that we are to be true to the moral laws that still exist today and if this is what you are saying then we are to still keep parts of the law that pertain to prayers, blessings and brotherhood that I have repeatedly given.

Yes, I agree.
Good show.

 

[Hopeful]

This is the theology forum.
Can you quote scripture that says this?

Exodus 32:33..."And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

Psalm 69:27-28..."Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
Rev 3:4-5 comes pretty close to your requirement too..."Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Can you find a scripture that says something else can get a name erased from the book of life?

 

[Hopeful]

Do you think the Spirit of the letter exemplified in Romans 13:8-10 is not required of us?

Absolutely, as they are written in the hearts of the reborn.

God did not free anyone in this present life from temptations of the tempter that transpire internally.

The don't "transpire internally". They are shoved in by the devil.

We really have just one basic difference in sight, and it's a fairly simple one to come to grips with for anyone that recognizes it's present day applicability to "all of us"
It's Mark 4:15
Satan is a sinner. THE LAW is for SINNERS. That means the law is also AGAINST SATAN

If you are a sinner...the Law is for you.
Scripture shows me that I have been reborn of God's seed, and thus incapable of bringing forth evil fruit.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:9-10)
Temptations can't MAKE me or anyone else commit sin.

 

[Hopeful]

So, you are then saying with this statement that we are to be true to the moral laws that still exist today and if this is what you are saying then we are to still keep parts of the law that pertain to prayers, blessings and brotherhood that I have repeatedly given.

No doubt about it.
It is part of the divine nature of the children of God.

 

[smaller]

"We can stand, both entirely justified, and even more interestingly, entirely CONDEMNED" is impossible. You're one or the other.

Now, start over with the scriptures above, and figure out how that can be. It should be really clear, but it's not.

We can keep repeating the lesson and see what happens

IF we have internal temptation thoughts via the tempter, "WHO" then is entirely condemned by God in Christ?

The existence of devils in mankind is a well established fact of scripture

Yet the people of Israel didn't get the picture, and still don't

Why?

Mark 4:15 is REAL

Whether anyone believes Jesus on the subject or not is irrelevant to the fact of it