Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[smaller]

The don't "transpire internally". They are shoved in by the devil.

Ah, so you're going back to the "I'm only tempted externally" but never in thought form by the tempter?

And as such you remain sinless without ever an evil lawless defiling thought?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Exodus 32:33..."And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

Psalm 69:27-28..."Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
Rev 3:4-5 comes pretty close to your requirement too..."Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Can you find a scripture that says something else can get a name erased from the book of life?

Matthew 24:24; "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.:
Are you part of the elect or are you a lost soul?

1 John 4:4​

Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

Psalm 121:7-8. The Lord will keep you from all evil; he will keep your life. The Lord will keep your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forevermore.

2 Timothy 4:18: The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:13;
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[Hopeful]

Ah, so you're going back to the "I'm only tempted externally" but never in thought form by the tempter?

As it is indeed "by the tempter", how can it be "internally"?
The devil doesn't reside in a temple of the Holy Ghost...me.

And as such you remain sinless without ever an evil lawless defiling thought?

Though tempted, I am empowered to resist the devil...and he flees from me. (James 4:7)
You can say the same thing, if you will submit to God.

 

[Hopeful]

Paul uses an extremely interesting proof of Christianity and the Laws in Romans 7. But in a very uncomfortable way.

It's an internal proof that anyone can test for themselves.

They read an Old Testament law that says, "Do Not Lust"

And, voila, just like clockwork, thoughts of lust arrive in mind, as if on cue.

In that matter, Paul is also showing a principle of Jesus, expressed in parable form, because it's unseen activity, that where the word is sown, in the case of Romans 7, the law against lust, that Satan comes to steal that word in the form of lawless thoughts, Mark 4:15. And perhaps best exemplified as lustful temptations, of which Paul claimed every manner of which came into his own mind. Gotta love an honest man, that's for sure.

Pretty sure the laws against eating pork or shellfish cause people to wonder and want. Same principle.

In fact people in general are so lawless that a sign can be posted to not drive a certain speed and that will guarantee people will exceed it. First in thought form, then in action. The only sad part for the government is that they can't fine people for thinking about speeding, but I hear they're working on it. ;)

The law is meant to prove to us, individually, that we do engage evil thoughts, internally. Jesus said this PROVES we are defiled. And hence our need for a Savior.

And those laws are also meant to point us to the source of these wicked thoughts these being a matter of "no longer I" which term Paul deploys twice in Romans 7, terming it an action of sin that he essentially had no control over whatsoever, because IT, sin, has a mind of its own and that intention is "lawless thoughts." Which, if left untended, leads invariably to lawless actions, all sin nevertheless.

I can't say how fascinating it's been over the years hearing so many believers claim they are either sinless or they never have lawless thoughts or that their lawless thoughts are natural or common to all, therefore not a problem whatsoever.

It's even more amazing when hearing "believers" claim that the evil present with them is "lawful." I tend to avoid associating with such deceptions, lest I too fall into that lie. Better to call it out, and expose it, come what may.

No Law...no Lawless thoughts.
Thanks be to God, in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Matthew 24:24; "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.:
Are you part of the elect or are you a lost soul?

1 John 4:4​

Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Psalm 121:7-8. The Lord will keep you from all evil; he will keep your life. The Lord will keep your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forevermore.
2 Timothy 4:18: The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Ephesians 1:13;
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

I am of those who have elected to serve God.

 

[for_his_glory]

No doubt about it.
It is part of the divine nature of the children of God.

Then not all the laws are dead to us that you presume in us being dead to the laws.

 

[Hopeful]

Then not all the laws are dead to us that you presume in us being dead to the laws.

I'ld hate to think that Paul was misinformed.
It was written..."But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
We are indeed delivered from the Law, but some of the old Law of Moses and the Jewish customs are included under the Law of Christ...ie., Love God with all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Instead of learning, and living, 613 rules, we live 2.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'ld hate to think that Paul was misinformed.
It was written..."But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
We are indeed delivered from the Law, but some of the old Law of Moses and the Jewish customs are included under the Law of Christ...ie., Love God with all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Instead of learning, and living, 613 rules, we live 2.

I have never said we are subject to all 613 laws, especially being Gentiles. Yes, I agree that some of the old laws are included under the greatest commandment of love and the second as loving others as we love our self.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

On these two commandments of love hang all the moral laws that I have listed a few times in here that are only a small part of the 613 that we are to be obedient to until the return of Christ when then He will fulfill everything in the law and the Prophets.

I really can not explain this any clearer.

 

[Hopeful]

Too late now. The law was loosed in the Garden, Do Not Eat, or else...

But now, in the NT, we are dead to it.
Thanks be to God.
"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (Rom 7:4)

And lawlessness sprang forth in all

Such was the OT.

Let's simplify the law to being for the good, and against the evil, and it's not nearly as complex as people try to make it out to be
And equally simply obvious is why we struggle with it and deny it, because we all bear lawlessness in the forms of contrary to law thoughts in mind, regardless of Perfect Claimants that are not God

Only those still in the flesh still struggle with it.
It is those who are not dead to the Law by the body of Christ who are still under the Law's 613 edicts.

 

[Hopeful]

I have never said we are subject to all 613 laws, especially being Gentiles. Yes, I agree that some of the old laws are included under the greatest commandment of love and the second as loving others as we love our self.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

On these two commandments of love hang all the moral laws that I have listed a few times in here that are only a small part of the 613 that we are to be obedient to until the return of Christ when then He will fulfill everything in the law and the Prophets.

I really can not explain this any clearer.

I thought we agreed on this from the very beginning. ???

 

[jaybo]

But now, in the NT, we are dead to it.
Thanks be to God.
"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (Rom 7:4)

Such was the OT.

Only those still in the flesh still struggle with it.
It is those who are not dead to the Law by the body of Christ who are still under the Law's 613 edicts.

Would you explain the last sentence?

 

[for_his_glory]

I thought we agreed on this from the very beginning. ???

Maybe I am confused. Was it not you that said none of the 613 laws are for today as they are done away with?

 

[Hopeful]

Would you explain the last sentence?

Sure.
Re: "It is those who are not dead to the Law by the body of Christ who are still under the Law's 613 edicts."

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (Rom 7:4)
With Paul's words from Rom 7:4 in mind, it is by the body of Christ that we are freed from the Law, so those not dead with Christ are not freed from the Law of Moses.
"Dead with Christ"...as it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
If our flesh has been killed by our baptism into Christ and into His death, (Rom 6:3-7), we join with Him in moving past a need to be shown how really bad sin is.
That was the Law's purpose. It is written..."Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20)
It is written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)
Those without faith in Jesus Christ miss out on those two verse.
They are still under a Law that is trying to provoke them to righteousness.

 

[Hopeful]

Maybe I am confused. Was it not you that said none of the 613 laws are for today as they are done away with?

I didn't use those exact words, so no I didn't say it.
I have been saying that we are dead to the Law, and they have no part of the believer's new life...except for the big 9.
The big 9 are encapsulated with Love God with all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
That is the Law of Christ.

 

[jaybo]

I don't understand why there is such confusion. There are two entities that control our thoughts and behavior: the law and the Spirit.

The law is external. It is a series of written instructions that tell us what to do, e.g. love our neighbor, and what not to do, e.g., do not steal. We read them, meditate on them, and (if we believe them) try to do our best to live by them. The trouble is -- we can't. The law arouses our worst emotions, a.k.a., the sin nature, which we inherited from Adam. So we struggle, but we can't keep the law 100% (as God requires). The penalty for sin is death.

The Spirit is internal. It is a gift from God to those who have accepted Jesus Christ. The Spirit guides us internally, motivating us to behave in accordance with God's instructions. There are no external regulations necessary, for it is now in our nature to behave as God wishes.

The Law is a set of external rules and instructions kept in the mind. The Spirit is God's very life that lives within us. Hallelujah!!

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn't use those exact words, so no I didn't say it.
I have been saying that we are dead to the Law, and they have no part of the believer's new life...except for the big 9.
The big 9 are encapsulated with Love God with all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
That is the Law of Christ.

Never mind as I do not care to discuss this anymore. I think I will bow out for now as I don't know what more I can give that I haven't given many times.

 

[Hopeful]

Never mind as I do not care to discuss this anymore. I think I will bow out for now as I don't know what more I can give that I haven't given many times.

Thank you for providing your insights.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Never mind as I do not care to discuss this anymore. I think I will bow out for now as I don't know what more I can give that I haven't given many times.

I think you explained correctly. Indeed the Law of God is Eternal/ perennial, Pure and Just (Psalm 19:9-11, Psalm 119, Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17), and Perfect ( Psalm 19:7). Nobody in this Universe can touch Law of God, but it's obedience requirement is completely met through ( acts of ) Loving Compassion , or loving kindness if you will. If one pores the Bible deeply and examines the Word closely , we will see that God's premier attribute is Love ( 1 John 4:8, 1John 4 :16 ) and Psalms I I believe mentions Unfailing Love of God at least 40 times. Jesus says the two greatest commandments are Love God and love the neighbor , and proceeds to issue a very important statement " Entire Law and teachings of the Prophets find fullfillment through these two commandments itself. To make it doubly sure that we got the point, I believe Christ repeats the same message in different words in Matthew 7: 12, and again repeats the entire Law and teachings of Prophets are fulfilled when we practice Loving kindness. Finally Jesus takes us to the judgment day scene ( Matthew 25:31-46) wherein He is sitting on the judge's seat along with a whole host of angels ( scary but a beautiful scene ) Jesus let's us know that He used ( will use) the metric / criterion of works of Loving--kindness to decide who is Saved and who is not. Only those who had Acts of Loving kindness ( the Sheep ) were saved. While others ( Goats ) were left out / rejected with a harsh rebuke. Again the Criterion Christ used ( of loving compassion) ties up perfectly with His two greatest commandments ( Matthew 22:37-40.
Also , the new commandment He gave to His disciples was again about loving ....Love each other as I have loved you ( John 13:34)

I take Christ's words very seriously and to me His words get inscribed on a stone and last forever and ever ( Matthew 24:35). They cannot go. And therefore If there is a contradiction, I always choose Christ above all others in Bible except for Father God. The reason being Jesus Himself warns/ cautions us in John 13:16 that nobody's words can ever trump His. Keeping all this mind the salvation doctrine that I get from the Bible is this :

"Fear God, turn away from sin and sinful lifestyle , and turn to righteousness, by picking up the Cross of Christ and following Him ( Matthew 10:38) , and practicing loving kindness consistently until it becomes a second nature. "
( This takes a lifetime of practice)
I was also completely blown away when I realized the entire Bible's message can be summarized in one word ....LOVE
And then I realized why Solomon says in Proverbs 10:12 " Love covers ALL sin". Apostle Peter , the rock of our Lord echoes the same thought in 1 Peter 4:8 " Love covers a multitude of sin "
Father God reveals in Jeremiah 23: 24 His Spirit fills the entire cavity of the Universe. When I connected this revelation of God with 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16, I realized the entire universe is filled with LOVE, because God is love and He fills the entire universe.
All this being said and relevant scripture quoted I humbly submit that I wish not to impose my conclusions on anyone. To me it's adequate if you love Christ deep enough to keep / obey His commandments. ( John 14:15, John 14:21, John 14:23 ). Three times in one Chapter itself!
Yet I would like to caution friends the judgment day scene Jesus reveals in Matthew 25:31-46 will play out word for word on judgment day. Please pay heed to the criterion He will use on the last day to save or condemn
Also remember Matthew 22:14 caveat please. "Many are invited, but few are chosen."
May the Lord's rich blessings and wisdom be with each one of us

 

[jaybo]

Sometimes you re-read a verse and it really "jumps out at you". In this case it's Romans 10:4...

"For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes." (NET 2.1) Christ is the end of the law"

In case you question this translation...

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (ESV)
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (HCSB)
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (KJV)
"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (NASB)
"Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (NIV)
"For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (NRSV)
"For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified." (RSV)

The principle is as clearly stated as is possible in multiple translations: Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. QED

With that I am leaving this discussion. Bye.

 

[Hopeful]

Sometimes you re-read a verse and it really "jumps out at you". In this case it's Romans 10:4...

"For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes." (NET 2.1) Christ is the end of the law"

In case you question this translation...

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (ESV)
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (HCSB)
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (KJV)
"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (NASB)
"Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (NIV)
"For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (NRSV)
"For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified." (RSV)

The principle is as clearly stated as is possible in multiple translations: Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. QED

With that I am leaving this discussion. Bye.

Yep, the days of go there, don't go there, do this, don't do that, eat that, abstain from this, wear that, avoid this, are over.
Now it is...love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Thanks for participating.