Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[PeterJens]

Hi guys, greetings and blessings to all.
I wish to ask the vital question Is God’s Law dead/redundant now? I will rephrase

Is the Law now irrelevant to the Christian, now that he/she is under “ grace” (a word Jesus never uttered or taught)?

Before you answer, please take the following into consideration because God is very sensitive about His eternal, perennial, and imperishable Law. We must remember what happened to the Jews who chose to disobey the Law and commandments of God written by His own finger and handed over to Israelites via Moses ( Deuteronomy 9:10) and this very Law which was written by Father Gods finger was placed on the 2 tablets of MIND and HEARTS of every human ( Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16)
The disobedience of Law led to widespread devastation of the Israelites and the destruction and plunder of God’s own temple. The havoc was wrought by Father God due to the disobedience/ sin of the Israelites – to the extent that they had to eat their own flesh and flesh of each other and the flesh of their children. Jeremiah 19:7-10, Deuteronomy 28:52-57 etc.
Father God's given Law is Eternal, Perennial, magnificent says teh Bible ( Psalms 119, psalms 19:9-11, Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16 etc.)

Yet Paul says the eternal, imperishable Law of God lies written on human hearts and minds by none other than the Finger of Father God Himself "was nailed to the cross" ( check Colossians 2:14). I consider this a most audacious attack on the eternal Law of God ( which lies etched on our minds and hearts at this very moment) , and we can imagine the utter Fury of Father God for destroying/crucifying His eternal, imperishable Law.

Jesus warns ( I paraphrase) the whole universe can crash burn and disappear -- but the Law of God cannot simply go. Not even the least bit! ( Matthew 5:17-18) and repeats again in Luke 16:17 for good measure. Did you know friends nobody in the Universe dare touch Gods eternal imperishable Law which is there forever and ever? Not even the Son , our Lord Jesus can touch it and He didn’t. The obedient-to-death Son upheld the Law and warned it just can never go. ( although He did teach us HOW to obey the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets –Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Luke 10:25-28—unfortunately this precious/vital teaching of Christ went disregarded/ ignored by an overwhelming majority of the Churches

The psalmist calls God’s Law Eternal, Just , Pure ( Psalm 19:9-11) lifegiving ( Psalm 19:7 and Psalm 119:93) and goes on to state “Blessed is the one whose delight is in the Law of the LORD, and on His law, they meditate day and night ( Psalms1:1-2)

Finally, David says this about the NATURE and structure of Law:

Psalm 119:44

I will always obey Your law, forever and ever



Psalm 119:160

The sum of Your word is truth [the full meaning of all Your precepts], And every one of Your righteous ordinances endures forever.

Unfortunately, the Forever/ eternal/magnificent/life-giving Law of God as declared by father God, the Son of God Christ Jesus, and David the man after God’s heart, now stands crucified to the cross, lying dead to the Christian, for he ( the Christian) has now been saved by “Grace”—a word ( I repeat ) Jesus never taught or even uttered from His mouth. I believe the Father God is in great fury at this very minute for His Law was destroyed by one man and the entire Churches not only believed this but taught it consistently ( and continue to teach even today)
For where there is no Law there is (literally) LAWLESSNESS and Jesus our Lord condemned such people who rejected God’s Law with the following words in Matthew 7:23 :
"But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ ( NLT)

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ ( Matthew 7:23)

In light of this due diligence placed above for your prudent consideration, I respectfully ask fellow brothers and sisters :

IS THE LAW OF GOD DEAD OR NOT?

If it’s indeed dead/gone/ irrelevant please provide verses which say so – other than Paul’s who I believed taught in DIRECT contradiction to above Verses of Father God, Christ the Son, and the Psalmist ( apart from other OT / NT writers ) I will appreciate scriptural references and edification rather than personal attacks. I will appreciate being explained how God’s Perennial Law stands dead now. And even if we elect to use Paul's words to do away with the Law of God, is it prudent on our part to place Paul's words above God and the Son and Psalmist's warnings about the Law? Especially since Jesus cautioned us in John 13:16 with these words:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." Paul's ( or anyone else's, save God's ) words/doctrine can never supersede/ exceed Jesus' is what I believe He is saying

Many thanks in advance
Look forward /\
A brother in Christ, and a humble servant of our Lord
---Raj

There is a simple answer to this, condemnation from a lack of conformity is dead, loving and following its implications from the heart is alive and kicking.

A question arose where someone was touched that Jesus not only loves us, but likes us.
Emotionally though I do nothing in a certain situation I like to be liked.

The word like is about attraction and empathetic contact.
Imagine being in a church where wearing a suit to church shows respect for God while being casual and open shows disrespect and dishonour to God. It may not be verbally acknowledged that dress has become part of the law of faith, but it has. Often subconscious rules in a group get adopted as to what can be shared and what not shared within the group. In the extreme case certain positions are obvious, but other debated issues not so clear.

When people come into a building a lot assumptions are made in regard to threat, harm and openness. What is not obvious is how far these assumptions match with experience and are just hidden projections. So a pastor or preacher is deemed to be speaking Gods word, though in reality they may not be. If they use generalities into which different groups would imply different meanings, a group can appear to agree, but actually be hearing different meanings.

In reality only over time, sharing, walking and seeing love in action, can the nuance between law and grace be understood. So Jesus loves and likes us, individually and on our path helps to transform us into His likeness.

The letter of the law is like a guide post of where the extreme becomes obviously sinful behaviour. But take social interactions which are full of colour and nuance, growth and growing understanding. There will be boundaries of inappropriate expression and meaning, but when constrained in Christs love and family, find resolution in Him.

Often groups resort to constraint of contact, repression of acknowledging the inner life, and conformity of expected behaviour not love delivering appropriate behaviour. It is the constraint that becomes a substitute faith, not life in the Spirit in the heart. Often those hurt by constraint faith, say the peoples faith was wrong, rather than they had not fully discovered transforming faith overcoming the need to live a constrained life.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Shooting or killing someone with stones is not showing the love in our hearts.

Justice, a life for a life, is not evil, or not showing love.
It is the society acknowledging life is sacred and a price must be paid to the taking away of it from another.

A healthy society where murder is rare, often reflects this be resolving murder cases with lifetime imprisonment.
Often also murder is related to social and personality disorders, which the society itself bears some responsibility for.
It is no surprise that prisons are full of people with learning difficulties, anger issues, coming from unloving and dysfunctional family setups and lack of care in intimate relationships or their meaning.

In smaller groups, where everyone knew each other, from childhood to death, things often were different.
Todays urban life with strangers and few close contacts, these nuances are less clear to see or even respond to.

 

[smaller]

If we "live our lives in honesty", there is no room for devilish actions.

Perhaps we can stop with the false premise that we only have wicked thoughts when we get caught exercising them where they can be seen.

Evil thoughts defile us, period. The statements from Jesus about having them are NOT optional and believers are NOT an exception

I might also add that internal deceit to the extent that our minds are blinded to the fact of having evil/tempting thoughts are actually the most extreme forms of deception in such bearers

It's also why Jesus hated religious rulers, because they were your basic lying hypocrite posers in the pulpits

Lying hyporcrites did not seem to be Jesus' favorties, that's for sure.

But what they represent is the reality of the LAW, that where the Word is sown, Satan does enter the heart...to work his black magic, exactly as Jesus advised us all in Mark 4:15 and in other such statements

When we say were are sinless, when we let the tempter off the hook by "excusing" our evil thoughts, we are walking a well worn path of lying hypocrisy, that's for certain

 

[for_his_glory]

It was written..."For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matt 5:18)
Nothing has passed from the Law.
The Law is still there for the OT Jews.
NT Christians are just dead to the Law.

How can the OT Jews still practice the Temple parts of the laws today when there is no literal Temple in Jerusalem. Does God see Jew and Gentile as on this side of grace being separate, or does He see all, both Jew and Gentile being the body of Christ, Galatians 3:28.

I guess you are not understanding the moral laws that we are to obey by the greatest commandment of love. I have explained this so many times in this thread and even given the website where you can read what the moral laws are for both Jew and Gentile that we are to be obedient to through love for one another.

I give up as it's time to move on trying to get you to see this.

 

[for_his_glory]

Perhaps we can stop with the false premise that we only have wicked thoughts when we get caught exercising them where they can be seen.

Evil thoughts defile us, period. The statements from Jesus about having them are NOT optional and believers are NOT an exception

I might also add that internal deceit to the extent that our minds are blinded to the fact of having evil/tempting thoughts are actually the most extreme forms of deception in such bearers

It's also why Jesus hated religious rulers, because they were your basic lying hypocrite posers in the pulpits

Lying hyporcrites did not seem to be Jesus' favorties, that's for sure.

But what they represent is the reality of the LAW, that where the Word is sown, Satan does enter the heart...to work his black magic, exactly as Jesus advised us all in Mark 4:15 and in other such statements

When we say were are sinless, when we let the tempter off the hook by "excusing" our evil thoughts, we are walking a well worn path of lying hypocrisy, that's for certain

How can evil thoughts not acted upon defile us as they have to enter the heart first. Can you control these thoughts from coming in your mind, no, but with the help of Christ we can control them from coming in our heart and acting upon them.

What Defiles a Person

Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mat 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

 

[Hopeful]

Justice, a life for a life, is not evil, or not showing love.
It is the society acknowledging life is sacred and a price must be paid to the taking away of it from another.

Jesus said to forgive those who sin against us, and pray for our enemies.
Society is going to hell.

A healthy society where murder is rare, often reflects this be resolving murder cases with lifetime imprisonment.
Often also murder is related to social and personality disorders, which the society itself bears some responsibility for.
It is no surprise that prisons are full of people with learning difficulties, anger issues, coming from unloving and dysfunctional family setups and lack of care in intimate relationships or their meaning.

In smaller groups, where everyone knew each other, from childhood to death, things often were different.
Todays urban life with strangers and few close contacts, these nuances are less clear to see or even respond to.

 

[Hopeful]

Perhaps we can stop with the false premise that we only have wicked thoughts when we get caught exercising them where they can be seen.

I hadn't noticed that POV suggested in this thread

Evil thoughts defile us, period. The statements from Jesus about having them are NOT optional and believers are NOT an exception

Agreed, if by thoughts you mean temptations.

I might also add that internal deceit to the extent that our minds are blinded to the fact of having evil/tempting thoughts are actually the most extreme forms of deception in such bearers

Agreed, as all men are tempted to do evil.
Thankfully, though, God has provided all we need to resist temptations.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Thanks be to God for the escapes.

It's also why Jesus hated religious rulers, because they were your basic lying hypocrite posers in the pulpits
Lying hyporcrites did not seem to be Jesus' favorties, that's for sure.
But what they represent is the reality of the LAW, that where the Word is sown, Satan does enter the heart...to work his black magic, exactly as Jesus advised us all in Mark 4:15 and in other such statements

You did notice, I hope, that those the devil stole the seed from in Mark 4:15 were only a part of the parable, and that others did receive the word with joy and bore much fruit.

When we say were are sinless, when we let the tempter off the hook by "excusing" our evil thoughts, we are walking a well worn path of lying hypocrisy, that's for certain

You are only seeing this from one perspective.
If we actually are sinless, it manifests we were part of the Mark 4 parable that bears much fruit, and of those from James 4:7 that resisted the devil..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
And of those who heeded Paul in 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
And of those who heeded Peter in 1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
Submit.
Awaken.
Arm yourself.

 

[Hopeful]

How can the OT Jews still practice the Temple parts of the laws today when there is no literal Temple in Jerusalem.

He can't.

Does God see Jew and Gentile as on this side of grace being separate, or does He see all, both Jew and Gentile being the body of Christ, Galatians 3:28.

They are all of the body of Christ...if they have turned from sin and been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Jews and Gentiles that haven't submitted themselves to God are just unbelievers.

I guess you are not understanding the moral laws that we are to obey by the greatest commandment of love. I have explained this so many times in this thread and even given the website where you can read what the moral laws are for both Jew and Gentile that we are to be obedient to through love for one another.

I give up as it's time to move on trying to get you to see this.

I can't figure out why you think I don't understand it???
Love God with all your strength and love your neighbors as you love yourself...The Law of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

He can't.

They are all of the body of Christ...if they have turned from sin and been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Jews and Gentiles that haven't submitted themselves to God are just unbelievers.

I can't figure out why you think I don't understand it???
Love God with all your strength and love your neighbors as you love yourself...The Law of Christ.

So you do not think that morality is a good thing to follow?

 

[smaller]

You did notice, I hope, that those the devil stole the seed from in Mark 4:15 were only a part of the parable, and that others did receive the word with joy and bore much fruit.

All the words apply to everyone at all times, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

It's when we think they don't apply to "me" that the reality of Mark 4:15's Satanic theft transpires

If we actually are sinless

If all have sin, we all do, Romans 3:9, and sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, just WHO is the sinner in that equation?

Can you discern this matter?

We can't say we have no sin and be in truth. And if we think we don't, by the exercise of whatever ritualistic practices we falsely think makes us sinless again, we're back to square one, the truth is not in us

Bottom line: The devil, the tempter in anyone will never get off the hook

 

[smaller]

How can evil thoughts not acted upon defile us

I'm going to try citing Jesus' statements in this regard one more time, and hope His Words settle the matters:

Matthew 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matthew 5:28

Evil thoughts are not optional, and yes, they defile, per Jesus.

The notions that sins are only sins as "external actions" are patently false. We sin as a progression from thought, Romans 7:7-13, to word, and the culmination is deed, but defiling all the way through

The heart is deceitful above all things, particularly when it lies on this subject matter

 

[Hopeful]

So you do not think that morality is a good thing to follow?

Yes, if you want to keep your name in the book of life.

 

[Hopeful]

All the words apply to everyone at all times, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

Then you are still living under the Law, and need to be circumcised, set aside the Sabbath, celebrate feasts, wear some blue, refuse to enter a Gentile's house, etc. to be saved.

It's when we think they don't apply to "me" that the reality of Mark 4:15's Satanic theft transpires

When you find they don't all apply to you, you will have entered the NEW Covenant

If all have sin, we all do, Romans 3:9, and sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, just WHO is the sinner in that equation?

Then Jesus had sin.
Do you see the flaw of your POV?
Paul used the OT scriptures in Rom 3 to emphasize the fact that not even the Law loving Jews profited from keeping the Law.

If all have sin, we all do, Romans 3:9, and sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, just WHO is the sinner in that equation?
Can you discern this matter?

Yes.
The Rom 3 scriptures have been explained above, and the 1 John 1:8 (and 6 & 10) appertain to those who walk in darkness.
I John 1:5,7,& 9 appertain to those who walk in light.

We can't say we have no sin and be in truth.

True...if you do have sin in/on you
We can't say we have sin and be in the light...which is God.
We also can't say we have fellowship with Him if we walk in darkness.

And if we think we don't, by the exercise of whatever ritualistic practices we falsely think makes us sinless again, we're back to square one, the truth is not in us

So Peter was in error when he said we could be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, in Acts 2:38?
And John, in 1 John 1:7 is wrong about the blood of Jesus Christ washing away our sins?
And John is wrong about having all our unrighteousness cleansed in 1 John 1:9?
I trow not.

Bottom line: The devil, the tempter in anyone will never get off the hook

The devil will never "get off the hook".
But we can, with a real turn from sin (repentance from sin) and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and enduring faithfully until the end.

 

[Hopeful]

I'm going to try citing Jesus' statements in this regard one more time, and hope His Words settle the matters:

Matthew 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matthew 5:28

Evil thoughts are not optional, and yes, they defile, per Jesus.

The notions that sins are only sins as "external actions" are patently false. We sin as a progression from thought, Romans 7:7-13, to word, and the culmination is deed, but defiling all the way through

The heart is deceitful above all things, particularly when it lies on this subject matter

Can you tell the difference between being tempted and thinking about something?

 

[smaller]

Then you are still living under the Law, and need to be circumcised, set aside the Sabbath, celebrate feasts, wear some blue, refuse to enter a Gentile's house, etc. to be saved.

Jesus was exceptionally clear that man shall live by every word of God.

IF that word happens to be against evil, and we have an evil conscience, evil thoughts, etc. Even though the law convicts us all in this regards, it's still our ally to point it out to us.

As to your imposed sights of the law, I'd suggest better avenues of understanding it. Empirical external exercises and sights of the law are only for the natural carnal slave minds to see. They are intentionally misled by their own evil conscience.

When you find they don't all apply to you, you will have entered the NEW Covenant

I have no issues with the law or any Word of God being applicable to me, and to all. Yes, even if that law or His Words bring guilt and condemnation. I have no issues with these sights. It is only the blinded guilty who RUN from the honest conclusions or deny the obvious facts that the laws brings forth. That being our evil conscience, which is fwiw, demonically sourced.

Short version: If the LAW is against the devils, bring it baby!

And I don't know how YOU concluded Jesus had sin. Obviously God Himself is the sole exception. It's a very short deception hop from thinking you are sinless to thinking you are Jesus. You're not. Neither am I. Neither is any other phony claimant.

As to walking in darkness and light. Welcome to the club. Everyone has both good and evil works, period, no exceptions. Paul gave us an honest standard on this subject in Romans 7, particularly vs. 17-21.

You seem to still be struggling with this very elemental concept, that if we have internal temptations via the tempter, that places the worst sinner that has ever existed within our minds to do so. Mark 4:15 is REAL. And will remain so until Satan and his own are put away in the lake of fire.

Believers are forgiven, not even having sins accounted to us. BUT the big but also walks in our same shoes, that being the tempter.

When Jesus said He's in the midst of us, that picture is meant to be "internal" not you and a christian buddy. He's between us and the tempter. And I doubt you or anyone else would reasonably disagree with any of these conclusions, once acclimated to speak honestly about temptations and these being of the tempter, and internal in nature.

 

[smaller]

Can you tell the difference between being tempted and thinking about something?

Most believers are falsely led by Satan to readily dismiss or ignore their evil thoughts.

But you see the source of them is Satan, so it's entirely reasonable that Satan will hide and cover up the fact in the minds of people who are led that direction.

The Light of God's Words does expose "them"

Them being devils.

We can readily observe this in the life of Jesus, and if we follow Him, we will engage similarly

 

[jaybo]

Most believers are falsely led by Satan to readily dismiss or ignore their evil thoughts.

But you see the source of them is Satan, so it's entirely reasonable that Satan will hide and cover up the fact in the minds of people who are led that direction.

The Light of God's Words does expose "them"

Them being devils.

We can readily observe this in the life of Jesus, and if we follow Him, we will engage similarly

How do you know that "most believers are falsely led by Satan to readily dismiss or ignore their evil thought"? Have you taken a poll or is this just your personal opinion. If the latter, which I assume is the case, what is it based on?

 

[smaller]

How do you know that "most believers are falsely led by Satan to readily dismiss or ignore their evil thought"? Have you taken a poll or is this just your personal opinion. If the latter, which I assume is the case, what is it based on?

Easy to remedy.

Yes, I have evil thoughts against the law. And, per the scriptures, I attribute these to the tempter, because Mark 4:15 and 1 John 3:8 is real.

I find few believers can admit that they have evil thoughts that defile them, or that evil is present withIN them ala Romans 7:21, or that they have an evil conscience ala Heb. 10:22, and even less that are able to attribute these to the tempter, and condemn them.

Care to join in honesty? Or excuses? Or coverups?

The law in the simplest terms is that it is for good and against evil

Therefore the law is both for and against us all

The only reasonable conclusion, but a difficult one to reach for, because the internal resistance factor is entirely tangible, particularly in those who deny the Words of God, in the law, as being applicable, present-alive-active-in the now

The deniers obviously outnumber those who uphold and establish the LAW, as Paul did

And, you see, it is exactly because the law is so entirely effective in arousing internal resistance, that this transpires

And, in those it transpires within, they don't even realize what they are trying to do. Vainly.

God's Words are never diminished or bound

 

[jaybo]

Easy to remedy.

Yes, I have evil thoughts against the law. And, per the scriptures, I attribute these to the tempter, because Mark 4:15 and 1 John 3:8 is real.

I find few believers can admit that they have evil thoughts that defile them, or that evil is present withIN them ala Romans 7:21, or that they have an evil conscience ala Heb. 10:22, and even less that are able to attribute these to the tempter, and condemn them.

Care to join in honesty? Or excuses? Or coverups?

The law in the simplest terms is that it is for good and against evil

Therefore the law is both for and against us all

The only reasonable conclusion, but a difficult one to reach for, because the internal resistance factor is entirely tangible, particularly in those who deny the Words of God, in the law, as being applicable, present-alive-active-in the now

The deniers obviously outnumber those who uphold and establish the LAW, as Paul did

And, you see, it is exactly because the law is so entirely effective in arousing internal resistance, that this transpires

And, in those it transpires within, they don't even realize what they are trying to do. Vainly.

God's Words are never diminished or bound

When you write "I find few believers can admit that they have evil thoughts that defile them", what is this based on? Have you actually done a survey of most believers? Again, categorizing most/all believers as having "evil thoughts that defile them" is meaningless unless you can show how you came to this conclusion.

If it's just you personally judging the Body of Christ I think that you're heading into risky territory.

 

[smaller]

When you write "I find few believers can admit that they have evil thoughts that defile them", what is this based on?

Quick citings from Jesus on the subject:
Matthew 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matthew 5:28

Abundantly clear that evil thoughts defile us. It's not debatable. Paul had them, openly admitted to in Romans 7:7-13. I very much appreciate his honesty

Have you actually done a survey of most believers? Again, categorizing most/all believers as having "evil thoughts that defile them" is meaningless unless you can show how you came to this conclusion.

It's really a question to you by your own conscience. The only question from that point is, is your conscience honest or is it not?

If it's just you personally judging the Body of Christ I think that you're heading into risky territory.

I have no cause to judge any believer. I have every cause to point to the fact that we all are internally tempted in mind by the tempter, and condemn the tempters thoughts, words and actions in anyone, PRIMARILY IN MY OWN SORRY HIDE

I know. Most are not used to applying condemnation to themselves. But if you can see past yourself to the cause, it's actually quite entirely enjoyable.