Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Truthfrees]

It's an interesting question as to how much He actually did tell them in advance. But here we have Him promising to establish a new covenant, and covenants are stablished on their own specific terms, meaning a new set of laws would of necessity be applied. I can't think of any OT passage off hand that would add to this (as to what He said about Old laws being done away with), but I sense there are some.

Hebrews 8:8-12 says God's laws remain - i added to my original post - sorry i didn't think anyone was online yet

did God ever say any part of HIS laws would be done away with? God only ever spoke against man's words/laws - God said His laws would continue in the new covenant - Hebrews 8:8-12

of the 2 sides on this issue it boils down to choosing whose words are the plumbline

is Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31 the plumbline or something else?

for me paul has to be interpreted in line of what God said rather than the opposite

imo paul really does agree with God - he just communicated it in a way that gentiles messianics and karaites all believe paul says torah is gone

messianics and karaites reject talmud and manmade laws and for this reason are excluded by jews who hold to judaism which is a mix of God's laws and man's laws - imo Jesus and paul opposed man's laws and promoted God's laws just as the messianics and karaites do

i guess for myself if i believed paul disagreed with God i would have to reject paul as a false teacher of the same ilk as rcc who have replaced what God says with what popes say - they declare popes changed God's teachings - Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31 declare God's laws remain imo - i will always choose God

 

[Hidden In Him]

i guess for myself if i believed paul disagreed with God i would have to reject paul as a false teacher of the same ilk as rcc who have replaced what God says with what popes say - they declare popes changed God's teachings - Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 5:19 - Romans 3:31 declare God's laws remain imo - i will always choose God

I'm getting a little confused now. You are saying His laws regarding unclean foods, the Levitic priesthood, the temple sacrifices, and strict adherence to Jewish feast days and sabbaths still remain and must be kept? Having trouble following you now.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

the great white throne judgement is for those who have not received the free gift of salvation - for those who rejected the grace of GOD by faith - therefore they will be judged for every sin they ever committed

Where does it say in that passage that it's for those only who did not receive the " free gift " of salvation?
What's added is obviously speculation. Hope you're not quoting your pastor
It's like wearing pink colored glasses. Everything looks pink through it right ? ( I used to love those glasses as an 8 year old. they handed them out in kids' parties, back in the day in India )
So if you're going to read every verse in Bible with those pink colored glasses of saved by grace alone , that's precisely what you'll get from the scripture.
Take a gander at these words of Sherlock Holmes and you'll know how this phenomenon occurs :
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts” says Sherlock Holmes.

 

[Truthfrees]

Where does it say in that passage that it's for those only who did not receive the " free gift " of salvation?
What's added is obviously speculation. Hope you're not quoting your pastor
It's like wearing pink colored glasses. Everything looks pink through it right ? ( I used to love those glasses as an 8 year old. they handed them out in kids' parties, back in the day in India )
So if you're going to read every verse in Bible with those pink colored glasses of saved by grace alone , that's precisely what you'll get from the scripture.
Take a gander at these words of Sherlock Holmes and you'll know how this phenomenon occurs :
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts” says Sherlock Holmes.

i think i am misunderstanding you - ididn't read any of your posts in this thread except the ones to me

i am pro-law and pro-grace

what are you

 

[Truthfrees]

I'm getting a little confused now. You are saying His laws regarding unclean foods, the Levitic priesthood, the temple sacrifices, and strict adherence to Jewish feast days and sabbaths still remain and must be kept? Having trouble following you now.

all God's laws still have a purpose - there is no temple so that is non-functional but not erased as Revelations declares there will be a 3rd temple with sacrifices for 3.5 yrs to reveal the anti-christ

Jesus explained food does not make you defiled but he didn't say to start eating pork and lobster - he said Matthew 5:19

the Lord's feasts were not replaced with christmas easter halloween - if you don't want to celebrate the feasts you are missing out on a holy party time

if you are not on the sabbath with your family in God's presence you are missing out on a blessing

do you lose salvation - no - you are just not having all the blessed times you could

 

[Hidden In Him]

all God's laws still have a purpose - there is no temple so that is non-functional but not erased as Revelations declares there will be a 3rd temple with sacrifices for 3.5 yrs to reveal the anti-christ

This is good.

Jesus explained food does not make you defiled but he didn't say to start eating pork and lobster - he said Matthew 5:19

Mmm... unconvincing. You would have Him here saying that even Peter was making himself "least in the kingdom" by breaking a law God commanded him to break when He gave him the vision of the sheet descending from heaven with all the unclean foods on it, and said, "Eat."

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

the Lord's feasts were not replaced with christmas easter halloween - if you don't want to celebrate the feasts you are missing out on a holy party time

Now this I agree with, but you have to admit that if they are to be kept it is only after a spiritual manner and not after the strictness of the Jews, yes? If so, that in and of itself sort of eliminates the idea, IMO, that they must be kept as laws in the same strict sense that Israel did.

But I do understand your position a little better now. But IMO.

1. If there is no physical temple (and He knew there would soon not be), then there would be no way for the church to fulfill any laws pertaining to it.

2. If He wanted the unclean food laws maintained as you say, they would still be literal commandments rather than advice on maintaining good health.

3. Not spiritualizing the Feasts but maintaining their strictness would, I think, have limited the evangelization of the Gentiles even during New Testament times, let alone now. I think most Christians would freak if they were told they had to keep them as a law still.

 

[Truthfrees]

This is good.


Mmm... unconvincing. You would have Him here saying that even Peter was making himself "least in the kingdom" by breaking a law God commanded him to break when He gave him the vision of the sheet descending from heaven with all the unclean foods on it, and said, "Eat."

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Now this I agree with, but you have to admit that if they are to be kept it is only after a spiritual manner and not after the strictness of the Jews, yes? If so, that in and of itself sort of eliminates the idea, IMO, that they must be kept as laws in the same strict sense that Israel did.

But I do understand your position a little better now. But IMO.

1. If there is no physical temple (and He knew there would soon not be), then there would be no way for the church to fulfill any laws pertaining to it.

2. If He wanted the unclean food laws maintained as you say, they would still be literal commandments rather than advice on maintaining good health.

3. Not spiritualizing the Feasts but maintaining their strictness would, I think, have limited the evangelization of the Gentiles even during New Testament times, let alone now. I think most Christians would freak if they were told they had to keep them as a law still.

yes to most of what you said

GOD'S unclean food laws were never broken by even paul - you have no proof of anyone changing their diet - the manmade unclean food laws say if you don't wash your hands in a certain way the food is unclean - which is what the disciples did when they picked the grain and put it in their mouth - you have to examine each bible incident minutely and not paint with a broad brush

fyi there is now autoimmune protocol diet - guess which foods are not allowed because they are detrimental to a person's immune system?

guess what happens to water mass purity when it is not filled with scavengers because people ate them

God's laws are not burdensome - only man's - Joshua 1:8 says careful observance is a good thing - adding to God's laws takes the joy out of it for even jews

all i can say is none of GOD'S laws were retracted by God - until heaven and earth passes away there is a really good purpose for them all

doing them in the flesh did not work in any era - doing them by the Spirit worked in every era

RULE OF THUMB
if God didn't say it don't do it - iow do only the red words - if something seems to disagree with the red words seriously seek God on the matter

 

[Hidden In Him]

GOD'S unclean food laws were never broken by even paul - you have no proof of anyone changing their diet

I think those laws would have likely been too engrained in them to simply discard them wholesale, but you don't think what the Lord said to Peter in the vision became the norm when eating with Gentile believers thereafter? Seems to me the command would have then remained, "Eat what they set before you, exercising discrimination about nothing."

 

[Truthfrees]

I think those laws would have likely been too engrained in them to simply discard them wholesale, but you don't think what the Lord said to Peter in the vision became the norm when eating with Gentile believers thereafter? Seems to me the command would have then remained, "Eat what they set before you, exercising discrimination about nothing."

when peter explained the meaning of his vision in Acts he didn't say God showed me to not call any food unclean - he said God showed me not to call any MAN unclean - another manmade law about gentiles being unclean and only jews were clean

 

[Hidden In Him]

when peter explained the meaning of his vision in Acts he didn't say God showed me to not call any food unclean - he said God showed me not to call any MAN unclean - another manmade law about gentiles being unclean and only jews were clean

Not sure I follow.

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again. (Acts 10:9-16)

Eating is referred to twice here. Once by the Lord in v.13 and again by Peter in v.14.

 

[Truthfrees]

Not sure I follow.

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again. (Acts 10:9-16)

Eating is referred to twice here. Once by the Lord in v.13 and again by Peter in v.14.

Acts 10:28 read all of Acts 10 for the complete story

 

[Hidden In Him]

Acts 10:28 read all of Acts 10 for the complete story

Ok, well I see how you are interpreting it then, but I have two problems with it.

1. It assumes that the unclean food laws were still in force through a vision where God specifically commanded Peter to kill and eat unclean foods, which seems to be a rather paradoxical position if that's the way it is to be interpreted.

2. It leaves you having to account for Colossians 2:16. The ones potentially judging them here were Jews, so the context suggests they were not keeping the laws regarding "food and drink" in strict accordance with Jewish law.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 (which are a shadow of things to come), but the body of Christ.

 

[Truthfrees]

Ok, well I see how you are interpreting it then, but I have two problems with it.

1. It assumes that the unclean food laws were still in force through a vision where God specifically commanded Peter to kill and eat unclean foods, which seems to be a rather paradoxical position if that's the way it is to be interpreted.

2. It leaves you having to account for Colossians 2:16. The ones potentially judging them here were Jews, so the context suggests they were not keeping the laws regarding "food and drink" in strict accordance with Jewish law.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 (which are a shadow of things to come), but the body of Christ.

the fact that he wondered what the vision meant imo proves he knew God wasn't telling him to break God's dietary laws

 

[Hidden In Him]

the fact that he wondered what the vision meant imo proves he knew God wasn't telling him to break God's dietary laws

Plausible, but kinda hanging by a thread. He could have simply been wondering how on earth the Lord was now telling him to do something completely contrary to Jewish law. See, to go with them and enter their home was paramount to eating with them, yes? I mean, once you have accepted their hospitality, it becomes an insult not to eat with them. I think the Lord was paving the way for full acceptance of Cornelius and his family, just as He Himself was about to demonstrate by pouring out His Spirit upon them even in their uncleanness.

 

[Truthfrees]

Plausible, but kinda hanging by a thread. He could have simply been wondering how on earth the Lord was now telling him to do something completely contrary to Jewish law. See, to go with them and enter their home was paramount to eating with them, yes? I mean, once you have accepted their hospitality, it becomes an insult not to eat with them. I think the Lord was paving the way for full acceptance of Cornelius and his family, just as He Himself was about to demonstrate by pouring out His Spirit upon them even in their uncleanness.

that's possible

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

i think i am misunderstanding you - ididn't read any of your posts in this thread except the ones to me

i am pro-law and pro-grace

what are you

Hi,
I recorded this video-- the link provided below--- which is addressed to our website/platform in general and not to you in particular Truth. It's a tribute to our website/platform, as well as my take -- as guided by Christ--- on the true doctrine of Christ, and how the ensuing deception obscured/ eclipsed it. I would encourage those who read my posts to have a look at the video. I chose the video route because it's virtually impossible to share (in form of writing) the obscured doctrine of Christ and the deception that took place. Thank you

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi,
I recorded this video-- the link provided below--- which is addressed to our website/platform in general and not to you in particular Truth. It's a tribute to our website/platform, as well as my take -- as guided by Christ--- on the true doctrine of Christ, and how the ensuing deception obscured/ eclipsed it. I would encourage those who read my posts to have a look at the video. I chose the video route because it's virtually impossible to share (in form of writing) the obscured doctrine of Christ and the deception that took place. Thank you

that was extremely long but as you said could not be written in a post

jews karaites messianics who love God's laws and reject manmade laws agree with you

either paul contradicts God or he is hard to understand as peter said - but either way ANYONE who contradicts God or changes what God says is wrong - ot and nt red words win - paul does sound like he contradicts God and changes what God said - what God said is true and pure and eternal - it is to be lived by

praying

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

that was extremely long but as you said could not be written in a post

jews karaites messianics who love God's laws and reject manmade laws agree with you

either paul contradicts God or he is hard to understand as peter said - but either way ANYONE who contradicts God or changes what God says is wrong - ot and nt red words win - paul does sound like he contradicts God and changes what God said - what God said is true and pure and eternal - it is to be lived by

praying

Agreed in toto. God is finally the boss of everything and everyone in big -O- universe. I love Him more than ever, and yet now I'm scared /fearful of Him more than ever! The more I understand Him, the more I fear Him. I keep telling him " your will is my command Lord " . Yet I'm not able to fully obey! But I wish to keep trying. Fake it until I make it!

 

[Truthfrees]

Agreed in toto. God is finally the boss of everything and everyone in big -O- universe. I love Him more than ever, and yet now I'm scared /fearful of Him more than ever! The more I understand Him, the more I fear Him. I keep telling him " your will is my command Lord " . Yet I'm not able to fully obey! But I wish to keep trying. Fake it until I make it!

the good news is Holy Spirit indwells so we can rejoice in HIS ability - HE is sent by God - the new covenant is GOD inside - being one with God - waiting for Him - resting in His love and letting His love fill us so that it overflows into loving obedience to His every wish - all God's festivals and His sabbath rest were to be times of focusing on God and HIS goodness to us

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

the good news is Holy Spirit indwells so we can rejoice in HIS ability - HE is sent by God - the new covenant is GOD inside - being one with God - waiting for Him - resting in His love and letting His love fill us so that it overflows into loving obedience to His every wish - all God's festivals and His sabbath rest were to be times of focusing on God and HIS goodness to us

That's a most beautiful and amazing post ...Amen:nod
Yes to be still and be aware of Him...one who is Spirit (John 4:24) and whose spirit fills the cavity of the Universe (Jeremiah 23:24). And to know that Spirit is Eternal, Unfailing Love... ( 1John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)
I'm also amazed how truly Christ reflects the Father so completely . His actions Words and deeds were in perfect harmony with every teaching of the Father....