Why do you consider "grace" as something different than "love"?What about the non-Jews, Jesus was addressing? There was no way they would know it was Grace which would save them. Why didn't Jesus reveal to them about Grace, which was purportedly the paramount ingredient of His salvation doctrine, as pounded and expounded by Paul.
Lord takes me to Matthew 8:1 where we learn that " thousands followed Christ down the mountain" from where He had delivered His largest piece of doctrine in one go--- Sermon on the Mount. I would imagine there would be pagans , atheists, scoffers, curious George's , even non religious people who had come to see and hear what's going and learn more about the man being Spoken of by crowds as Son of God . Also there must be bunch of ailing and afflicted people, who must have come to get healed since Jesus was healing left right and center. Now tell me WHY and HOW did He forget to share GRACE with them all ?
Subsequently we will discuss this Talmud Pharisee
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Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?
- Thread starter Rajesh Sahu
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There you go !The only ones who will get Grace on the last day is the ones who GAVE Grace to others . This was the message of Bible and Christ. That's why he issued the golden rule ....do to others as... ( Matthew 7:12) . He Himself says, the Golden Rule is also the summary of Bible. Nobody paid heed else we wouldn't be in the predicament we are in today.
More on this tomorrow. I'm so wiped out right now!it's 4.06 am here. Even my resolute and incessant insomnia is wavering!
Substitute "love" for "grace".
It is intrinsic to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Why follow the "shadow" instead of Him that casts the shadow?
It is written..."Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Col 2:16-17)
I would hate to think that Jesus' sufferings, death, and resurrection didn't cause the end of the previous covenant.
Righteousness cannot be achieved by what you eat or don't eat; or by on which day you worship.
How can you hold to this course of "Jesus demands we keep the Law" and not judge as unfaithful those who do not follow your lead?
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
Here is passage which helps in understanding the criterion God the Father uses to judge. Whatever the Father and Son utter remains forever and ever , and I seen an incredible harmony, congruence, and agreement in EVERYTHING they speak / command / warn
. Jesus changed nothing of the Father. But He certainly raised the bar of LOVE 
( Matthew 5:43-46)In light of that, this passage gains more importance. It's I believe from Ezekiel 33:10-20 . So beautifully the Father explains ....
"Son of man, say to the Israelites, ‘This is what you are saying: “Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live?” ’ 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’ 12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live. 17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. 20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”
"Walk in obedience, walk in Love" was then the overarching theme and message of Bible, and the Salvation doctrine of the Christ.
Jesus never demanded we keep the law of Moses.
We are to obey Christ Jesus, our high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
The Levitical Priesthood governed those under the law of Moses. That priesthood is no longer.
For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12
We are under the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.
JLB
Truthfrees
Member
yes this principle is our only hope of glory/holiness/obedience/faithfulness - apart from God and HIS ability working in us we can do nothing - that is new covenant magnificence - God's love joy peace goodness power strength operating in us to His glory/credit/praise - leaning on God instead if selfThat's a most beautiful and amazing post ...Amen:nod
Yes to be still and be aware of Him...one who is Spirit (John 4:24) and whose spirit fills the cavity of the Universe (Jeremiah 23:24). And to know that Spirit is Eternal, Unfailing Love...
I'm also amazed how truly Christ reflects the Father so completely . His actions Words and deeds were in perfect harmony with every teaching of the Father....
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
In Malachi 4:4 Lord God specifies the Law of Moses is His hand-written and given Law.
Now whoever wants to obey or not, is their choice. It will yet have consequences though (Matthew 7:21-23)
As for me, I wish to obey the Law of Father God in its entirety, through the method/way, the Son taught ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12) . I also read from the Word that to quote Luke 16:16 in isolation is not being correct/ fair to Christ, since in the immediately following verse ( Luke 16:17) Christ makes it abundantly clear, that the Universe can go, but the Law of God cannot ever go, just as he did is Matthew 5:17-18
The Law of God is eternal. Moses was a postman (courier/ FedEx) who carried the handwritten Law of God ( Deuteronomy 9:10) and delivered it to Israel. To play with the Law of God, and replace/crucify it , as paul did in Colossians 2:14, is the most dangerous game a human can play, and with an eternal consequence, in my understanding of Bible. Because attacking God's Law is tantamount to attacking father God Himself , and we know what happened to those, who rebelled against God and His eternal Law in the OT. From the caveat of meditating on the Law day and night ( Psalm 1:2, Joshua 1:8) to its getting entirely wiped out ( Ephesians 2:15) was a major downgrade/disgrace
Blessings to all
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Truthfrees
Member
amen - i can't see any need for it to go - it is so pure and holyIn Malachi 4:4 Lord God specifies the Law of Moses is His hand-written and given Law.
Now whoever wants to obey or not, is their choice. It will yet have consequences though (Matthew 7:21-23)
As for me, I wish to obey the Law of Father God in its entirety, through the method/way, the Son taught ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12) . I also read from the Word that to quote Luke 16:16 in isolation is not being correct/ fair to Christ, since in the immediately following verse ( Luke 16:17) Christ makes it abundantly clear, that the Universe can go, but the Law of God cannot ever go, just as he did is Matthew 5:17-18
The Law of God is eternal. Moses was a postman (courier/ FedEx) who carried the handwritten Law of God ( Deuteronomy 9:10) and delivered it to Israel. To play with the Law of God, and replace/crucify it , as paul did in Colossians 2:14, is the most dangerous game a human can play, and with an eternal consequence, in my understanding of Bible. Because attacking God's Law is tantamount to attacking father God Himself , and we know what happened to those, who rebelled against God and His eternal Law in the OT. From the caveat of meditating on the Law day and night ( Psalm 1:2, Joshua 1:8) to its getting entirely wiped out ( Ephesians 2:15) was a major downgrade/disgrace
Blessings to all
people think the law creates sin but no one hates God when they hear the command to love God - no one rushes out to kill someone when they hear the command to not murder
people think there was no sin before the law yet the flood was before the law
people think God's laws are burdensome and impossible to keep yet God said the manmade laws were impossible to keep - people don't realize every religion mixes God's laws with man's laws - thus religion is the problem - not God's laws
people get hung up on the death penalty for certain crimes - if God thought it was a capital crime then God is right - can we stone people today? - no - every country has it's own list of capital crimes carried out by the state - why did Jesus not order the woman caught in adultery to be stoned? - torah says BOTH shall be stoned - where was the man? - Jesus knew it was a sham and would not participate - why did he not say that when talking to them? - he might have chosen to corner hypocritical people in a way that would make them face their own sin rather than point out their legal error - who knows - God knows and does perfect every time
people also get hung up on sin sacrifices but there is no temple - the next temple will be built in revelation and sacrifices will resume in the temple for 3.5 years to reveal the anti-christ who will stop the sacrifices to usurp worship for himself
some people think the only reason anyone would keep God's laws would be to be saved/righteous/justified - they don't understand that if we love God we obey God - simple and straight forward - John 14:15
This is what The law of Moses teaches about observing the Sabbath -
Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’ ” So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.” Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:23-30
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:12-15
Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.
”Exodus 35:1-3
Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36
And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.
Numbers 28:9-10
The Lord instructed Moses to put to death anyone who violated His Sabbath law.
Do you believe this is what Jesus instructed the Church to do under the New Covenant?
Do you believe the Church is to sacrifice two lambs every Sabbath?
JLB
This is an interesting proposition about being separate from the authorities etc.
Paul is very clear we are to obey the authorities and pay our taxes etc. because they are instituted and in power because of God. Equally we have obligations to our neighbours, to love them as we love ourselves. So we will protect and make sure they are safe and not exploited or have evil things done against them.
Jesus rather than washing his hands of the world, partook and shared within the world and to the people.
Even to Judas he showed love and support.
There are corrupt wars and wars of justice. If one cannot stand for justice what are we?
Agreed, ten commandments.
Agreed, Love God with all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
The universe will go, and the 10 commandments are written in the hearts of the reborn.
The Law was fulfilled at the resurrection of the Messiah.
That being, those free from sin will never die.
Sure am glad I am dead to the Law and customs.The Law of God is eternal. Moses was a postman (courier/ FedEx) who carried the handwritten Law of God ( Deuteronomy 9:10) and delivered it to Israel. To play with the Law of God, and replace/crucify it , as paul did in Colossians 2:14, is the most dangerous game a human can play, and with an eternal consequence, in my understanding of Bible. Because attacking God's Law is tantamount to attacking father God Himself , and we know what happened to those, who rebelled against God and His eternal Law in the OT. From the caveat of meditating on the Law day and night ( Psalm 1:2, Joshua 1:8) to its getting entirely wiped out ( Ephesians 2:15) was a major downgrade/disgrace
Blessings to all
As it is written..."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;..." (Rom 7:4)
I realize that a special diet cannot make me any more righteous than I was at my rebirth from God's seed.
I know that wearing blue, keeping only one day a week holy, tithing, or keeping feasts cannot make me more beloved in the eyes of God.
That can only be accomplished with a real turn from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and reception of the Holy Ghost...and enduring faithful till the end of my vessel's time on earth.
It is written..."Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Col 2:20-23)
I guess you have to ask yourself..."Am I dead with Christ"?
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I didn't say "authorities", I said "the world".
As we are subject to the rules of authorities, providing they don't contradict God, it behooves us to submit to them.
But we are not "of them".
We are NOT OF THIS WORLD.
It is written..."Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36)
Are you "of this world"?
Or are you of the kingdom of Jesus Christ?
"Are you of this world?"
No, I am born again, but I transcend the situation rather than being a victim of it.
The apostles talked about behaviour that belongs to darkness and that which is from the light.
The term "born again" means many different things to different people.
We only know our own experience and what others tell us of theirs. It is very clear from many interactions with believers some have no love in their hearts but claim to be full of the Holy Spirit. Others admit their hearts of sinful and desperately wicked, and are happy to cut people emotionally up into strips, yet claim spiritual authority to teach and run churches. Some have decided I was the most evil person in the world to suggest believers need to repent of sin and turn away from evil, which is truly weird because this is clearly what Jesus and Paul taught, let alone the whole of scripture.
Belonging must matter more to individuals and their perfect group, and condemning the others all around, because they are the saved group, no matter how true or real this is. One member of our house group, a daughter of a pastor has stories to tell of abuse etc in her church, of her sister going all over the place and seriously damaged, yet this church was spiritual and knowing God. I could get cynical, but rather I realise children playing with fireworks without reading the instructions often end up worse than if they had never started.
It sure is easy to tell the real Christians from the posers.
Doesn't it?
Those that walk as Jesus walked are the real thing, and those with hate in their hearts were never of God.
I have a friend who definitely walks with the Lord, except he can be very judgemental and condemning of others who are not as assertive and express their faith in a different way. They were so certain of their position, when they got seriously upset with how their son behaved, they refused to forgive them, even if it cost them salvation.
After about a year, they came round, and realised they could not change other people, and they do upsetting things but Jesus overcomes.
I personally have given up trying to know, just to share and bless. People are so damaged and shut doors on deep issues, which for some show their faith is just a surface and for others, something the Lord is slowly resolving.
I have a christian brother who is quite rude and abrupt, and you could argue, unloving. But it is a mannerism, and often because of insecurity and not being sure how to come across.
One blessed sister is a perfectionist, and sometimes this gets the better of her. C S Lewis in the great divorce painted a picture of our walk, which over time can become destructive and for others one step of glory to the next. I have come to realise it is often only over time and going through struggles one knows where one is, and how others are doing. It often shows the most unlikely folk come through while those who appeared so strong, fade away.
If you look at how you can help and encourage, that makes a difference. All the hard nuts I have met, seem to stay hard nuts till the end, which is why often they come to bash others about. God bless you
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
Well said!
Summary of Bible as I understand it is :
"Turn AWAY from sin, and walk in Obedience... walk in Love"
If somebody wants even a shorter summary than this!
, It is"Walk (Live) in Love!"
And if somebody is still being stubborn and wants an even shorter summary than this 3 word summary of God's message, I would like to use just one word.... LOVE!
( both, as a noun and a VERB) Love with a love that is pure, unconditional, and selfless... Agape/ Godly Love
Isn't it amazing?
2 Our Lord is simply amazing!Why? Because God is Love ( 1John 4:8, 1 John 4:16) and His universe is love as well ( Jeremiah 23:24) and whoever does not learn to love and practice compassion will be summarily rejected, no matter whom/ what they believed in ( 1 John 4:8, James 2:20, John 14:15, Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Luke 10:25-28) Jesus wants to see the FRUIT on the day of judgment, precisely as He had warned in the Vine and the branches allegory or in Matthew 7:19 Barren, fruitless trees will be chopped off and burned tree cautions the Lord
John the apostle also warns in the following verses that those who do not practice love are from the devil vs. those who practice love---they are from the Lord
1 John 3:10
By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
Finally what Christ taught, comes to fruition on the day of judgment ---only those who had got the message of Christ and PRACTISED it ( loving-kindness), were saved. Everyone else was rejected ( Matthew 25:31-46, John 14:15,18, 21)
(Rev-20:12)"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works
I think we have an abundance of reasons and incentives to walk ( live/exist) in love. I'm trying to (often unsuccessfully). hope you are trying as well. God bless everyone
PS: The glaring irony is depsite the clarion clarity of the criterion Jesus will use on the last day to save/ condemn is NOT being taught by an overwhelming majority of the Churches. they are still teaching ( even today) "Saved by faith alone doctrine" a toxic doctrine that was neither taught by Christ, nor used by Him on the day of judgment .... why then teach this?
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Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
Amen to everything :nod
Amen to that.Well said!
Summary of Bible as I understand it is :
"Turn AWAY from sin, and walk in Obedience... walk in Love"
If somebody wants even a shorter summary than this!
"Walk (Live) in Love!"
And if somebody is still being stubborn and wants an even shorter summary than this 3 word summary of God's message, I would like to use just one word.... LOVE!
( both, as a noun and a VERB) Love with a love that is pure, unconditional, and selfless... Agape/ Godly Love
Isn't it amazing?
Why? Because God is Love ( 1John 4:8, 1 John 4:16) and His universe is love as well ( Jeremiah 23:24) and whoever does not learn to love and practice compassion will be summarily rejected, no matter whom/ what they believed in ( 1 John 4:8, James 2:20, John 14:15, Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Luke 10:25-28) Jesus wants to see the FRUIT on the day of judgment, precisely as He had warned in the Vine and the branches allegory or in Matthew 7:19 Barren, fruitless trees will be chopped off and burned tree cautions the Lord
John the apostle also warns in the following verses that those who do not practice love are from the devil vs. those who practice love---they are from the Lord
1 John 3:10
By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
Finally what Christ taught, comes to fruition on the day of judgment ---only those who had got the message of Christ and PRACTISED it ( loving-kindness), were saved. Everyone else was rejected ( Matthew 25:31-46, John 14:15,18, 21)
(Rev-20:12)"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works
I think we have an abundance of reasons and incentives to walk ( live/exist) in love. I'm trying to (often unsuccessfully). hope you are trying as well. God bless everyone
PS: The glaring irony is depsite the clarion clarity of the criterion Jesus will use on the last day to save/ condemn is NOT being taught by an overwhelming majority of the Churches. they are still teaching ( even today) "Saved by faith alone doctrine" a toxic doctrine that was neither taught by Christ, nor used by Him on the day of judgment .... why then teach this?
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
No JLB we don't have to keep the commandments you highlighted or any other individually, because Christ taught to us that we fulfill EVERYTHING Father God commanded and taught, Christ Himself taught and the Prophets spoke by doing what Christ revealed to us in Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, and Luke 10:25 -28. For when we obey Christ's top two commandments and/ or His golden rule by "Loving God and Loving all others" we FULFILL the entire requirement of the Law and teachings of the prophets. But instead of fulfilling God's eternal and perfect Law ( through practicing loving-kindness ), we ended up crucifying it on the Cross of Christ based on teachings of paul ( Colossians 2 :14 , Ephesians 2:15) .
For this is exactly what the Churches taught for the past 500 years really repeatedly that we are NOT under Law but Grace , a word ( Grace) Jesus never taught or uttered, and therefore we the Church are primed for severe punishment on the last day. Yet most of them are blissfully unaware of the magnitude of the Father's unrestrained fury awaiting the Churches for wiping His Law completely rather than teaching what Christ taught was needed to obey entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets.
And with this comes true Christ Prophecy "Many are invited but few are chosen.
Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matthew 7:13,14
1“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and ONLY A FEW FIND IT.
Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but FEW CHOSEN
Luke 13:23,24
23 Someone asked Jesus “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
I'll like to quote Christ words in Matthew 24:35
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."
What this means is what has exactly happened. Only a few are on their way. The Churches did not get the Word and ended up killing God's eternal and perfect Law ( Matthew 19: 7-11) and the people were taught Grace, rather than obedience which finds its completion in loving kindness. However, there will still be a few people across the globe, who did practice Loving-kindness. These are the good Samaritans, the SHEEP of the Lord ( Matthew 25:41-46, revelation 20:11-12) who had stepped out of their selfishness and practiced living compassion. Only these will be saved. And well it appears that will be, but a fraction of the multitudes much as Christ had warned. He knew all this will happen...
As the Jews ended up the Messiah who had come to save them we ended up crucifying God's Law ( Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:15, and failed to teach the doctrine of Christ ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, John 14:15, John 14:18, John 14:21 Romans 6:14)
If Colossians 2:14 crucifies God's eternal, perfect Law on the Cross of Christ, Romans 6:14 deals a crushing blow to both--- God's eternal law and Christ's doctrine of loving-kindness by replacing Christ's pristine doctrine with something called Grace --- a word Jesus never taught or uttered
"For you are not under Law, but under grace." a favorite verse, teaching, and the doctrine of 99% of Churches even today...
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