Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Truthfrees]

Amen to everything :nod

amen

another thing people say God redeemed us from the law but God said the CURSE of the law - meaning God's law and the blessings of it remain - only the curse is removed - Galatians 3:13-14

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

amen

another thing people say God redeemed us from the law but God said the CURSE of the law - meaning God's law and the blessings of it remain - only the curse is removed - Galatians 3:13-14

The curse is the penalty levied for not keeping the Law was what was taught by father god in OT, and by Christ in NT as well ( Matthew 7:21)
Check Deuteronomy ( repetition of The Law) and other Prophets as well. whoever obeyed God's Law was blessed and whoever broke God's law was cursed and had to suffer punishments to the point of eating their own flesh and flesh of their wives and kids.
That is not a curse as Paulie calls it, but a punishment for breaking God's Law. Lemme quote an example, an allegory if you will to explain.
Jack is a serial killer and takes great delight in murdering people. One fine day law caught up with jack and he was arrested and subsequently tried and held guilty and sentenced to death by hanging. For Jack, the Law had become a curse, while to the society the same Law became a great boon and protector, by wiping out the life of the man who had ravaged many lives and destroyed them.
So there are two sides to it. Law has NO curse in itself else the Psalmist won't call it perfect, just , eternal and pure. ( Psalm 19:9-11) and the largest psalm in Bible, Psalm 119 was written only to extol the eternal and perfect Law and lift it high like a beacon in the sky.
Hopefully, you understood Truth, paul was trying to convince the Christians that the law was a curse.
and no that Curse to all sinners can never depart because the law is forever / eternal declares Christ Matthew 5:17-18, luke 16:17
I keep repeating ( but it helps that Jesus taught us HOW to obey the entire law and the teachings of the Prophets ---- Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7;12, luke 10:25-28.
the SHEEP in the last day vision caught and got the message and they obeyed Jesus' caveats ---they practiced loving-kindness and because of which they obeyed the entire law and teachings of the Prophets and were saved. Others only believed and were condemned by Christ Himself.
No obedience to the Law EVEN TODAY will cause condemnation warns Christ, and therefore He taught us how to obey it in toto.
The Spirit of the Lord tells me "new wine will need new wineskins" ...yet again
the deadly poisonous doctrine of Saved by grace alone through faith alone ( and that the eternal law of God is dead and we are now under grace) has gone too deep into the blood and system of the "old wine" and therefore many will not accept there were shenanigans that took place. hence my struggle to expose the deception has become arduous and unbearably laborious. Like the David and Goliath kind of stuff going on. I'm fighting for the Lord but against a massive resistance

New generation of Christians will of course understand in a flash the deception that took place based on all this due diligence I and some others have provided through books articles posts youtube videos etc . they are also fighting the David vs Goliath battle for the Lord.
Anyway most unlike what Paul calls the Law a curse, it's ironically the greatest blessings one can have IF one wishes to obey Christ at all

 

[Truthfrees]

The curse is the penalty levied for not keeping the Law was what was taught by father god in OT, and by Christ in NT as well ( Matthew 7:21)
Check Deuteronomy ( repetition of The Law) and other Prophets as well. whoever obeyed God's Law was blessed and whoever broke God's law was cursed and had to suffer punishments to the point of eating their own flesh and flesh of their wives and kids.
That is not a curse as Paulie calls it, but a punishment for breaking God's Law. Lemme quote an example, an allegory if you will to explain.
Jack is a serial killer and takes great delight in murdering people. One fine day law caught up with jack and he was arrested and subsequently tried and held guilty and sentenced to death by hanging. For Jack, the Law had become a curse, while to the society the same Law became a great boon and protector, by wiping out the life of the man who had ravaged many lives and destroyed them.
So there are two sides to it. Law has NO curse in itself else the Psalmist won't call it perfect, just , eternal and pure. ( Psalm 19:9-11) and the largest psalm in Bible, Psalm 119 was written only to extol the eternal and perfect Law and lift it high like a beacon in the sky.
Hopefully, you understood Truth, paul was trying to convince the Christians that the law was a curse.
and no that Curse to all sinners can never depart because the law is forever / eternal declares Christ Matthew 5:17-18, luke 16:17
I keep repeating ( but it helps that Jesus taught us HOW to obey the entire law and the teachings of the Prophets ---- Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7;12, luke 10:25-28.
the SHEEP in the last day vision caught and got the message and they obeyed Jesus' caveats ---they practiced loving-kindness and because of which they obeyed the entire law and teachings of the Prophets and were saved. Others only believed and were condemned by Christ Himself.
No obedience to the Law EVEN TODAY will cause condemnation warns Christ, and therefore He taught us how to obey it in toto.
The Spirit of the Lord tells me "new wine will need new wineskins" ...yet again
the deadly poisonous doctrine of Saved by grace alone through faith alone ( and that the eternal law of God is dead and we are now under grace) has gone too deep into the blood and system of the "old wine" and therefore many will not accept there were shenanigans that took place. hence my struggle to expose the deception has become arduous and unbearably laborious. Like the David and Goliath kind of stuff going on. I'm fighting for the Lord but against a massive resistance

New generation of Christians will of course understand in a flash the deception that took place based on all this due diligence I and some others have provided through books articles posts youtube videos etc . they are also fighting the David vs Goliath battle for the Lord.
Anyway most unlike what Paul calls the Law a curse, it's ironically the greatest blessings one can have IF one wishes to obey Christ at all

amen -

Matthew 5:19 says something similar and curious - there will be people in the kingdom/saved who break God's laws and teach others to do the same - prophetic regarding the future misunderstanding of paul's words?

different than what you mentioned regarding unsaved God-hating murderers etc

another good point you brought up is God said to call no man father for only God is our Father and Teacher - yet paul calls himself a father and teacher

there is a list of issues where paul contradicts God and himself - so peter john james paul all made many mistakes recorded in the nt but all red words/GOD'S WORDS are pure and trustworthy

 

[JLB]

No JLB we don't have to keep the commandments you highlighted

Amen I agree.


Sabbath requirements, feast days, animal sacrifices, food laws, ceremonial washings, returning to Jerusalem and the like, are all apart of the law of Moses which was abolished by Christ Jesus, having been nailed to the cross.


Now, we are to obey the law of Christ, and His commandments and doctrine.





JLB

 

[JLB]

But instead of fulfilling God's eternal and perfect Law ( through practicing loving-kindness ), we ended up crucifying it on the Cross of Christ based on teachings of paul ( Colossians 2 :14 , Ephesians 2:15) .

This is a gross misunderstanding and false.


Paul taught what Christ Jesus taught him. Everything Paul taught aligns with Christ as well as the other apostles who wrote the New Testament.


The law of Moses with all the animal sacrifices and Sabbath requirements and so forth were shadows that were cast by the reality of Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Summary of Bible as I understand it is :
"Turn AWAY from sin, and walk in Obedience... walk in Love"

Amen.



This is what Paul taught.

 

[JLB]

If Colossians 2:14 crucifies God's eternal, perfect Law on the Cross of Christ, Romans 6:14 deals a crushing blow to both---

The law of Moses is not God’s eternal law.

If it was then you need to sacrifice animals when you sin.





JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

This is a gross misunderstanding and false.


Paul taught what Christ Jesus taught him. Everything Paul taught aligns with Christ as well as the other apostles who wrote the New Testament.


The law of Moses with all the animal sacrifices and Sabbath requirements and so forth were shadows that were cast by the reality of Christ.



JLB

You keep saying whenever Paul attacked Law of God it was not God's Law that he crucified on the Cross of Christ but was Law of Moses.
However 99 % of Christian Churches do not think that . Why?
They believe the whole Law of God was done away with, and we are under something Christ never taught ...Grace .
Take a gander at these 37 times Paul goes after the Law of God. Why should I think every time he attacked the Law it was " Law of Moses"? Did almost all Christian Churches make a monumental blunder of killing God's Law by inferring Paul was talking about the whole Law itself . God's handwritten Law ?
Here are the 37 times ( I thank the author of the article for compiling this ) . Irony being he is claiming the Law of God is dead gone dead and buried and that's why he compiled these " teachings" of Paul:

Here are 37 scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the law!

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

Well there you have it… 37 scriptures that make a very convincing argument.

Repeating my question again JLB : What made the Christian Churches think it was the entire Law of God that was wiped out , and not just mosaic rules? For that's precisely what they taught, in 40 different churches I went to, in my 16 years of being a Christian.
( Also most of these 37 times clearly point at God's Law being the target of Pauline darts )

 

[JLB]

You keep saying whenever Paul attacked Law of God

Not true. I never said Paul attacked the law of God.

Paul never even attacked the law of Moses.

Please stop misrepresenting what I say.


The laws and commandments of God are eternal.

The law of Moses was temporary.




You seem unable to understand this.



The New Testament writings of Paul are scripture.




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

No JLB we don't have to keep the commandments you highlighted or any other individually, because Christ taught to us that we fulfill EVERYTHING Father God commanded and taught, Christ Himself taught and the Prophets spoke by doing what Christ revealed to us in Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, and Luke 10:25 -28. For when we obey Christ's top two commandments and/ or His golden rule by "Loving God and Loving all others" we FULFILL the entire requirement of the Law and teachings of the prophets.

OK, so far.

But instead of fulfilling God's eternal and perfect Law ( through practicing loving-kindness ), we ended up crucifying it on the Cross of Christ based on teachings of paul ( Colossians 2 :14 , Ephesians 2:15) .

How does one affect the other?
The Law has been eclipsed with a new, better covenant.
The Law was NOT able to enable us to love God and neighbor, so was done away with.
Please don't denigrate Paul in order to foist an unprofitable past on us.

For this is exactly what the Churches taught for the past 500 years really repeatedly that we are NOT under Law but Grace

If you are still wanting to live under the Law, you are to adhere to all of it...including circumcision, and stoning witches.
Where is the love of Christ in that?

, a word ( Grace) Jesus never taught or uttered

So what?
He never said "automobile" or "escalator" either.
As I wrote earlier, substitute the word "LOVE" for "GRACE".
Jesus said the word "LOVE" many times.

, and therefore we the Church are primed for severe punishment on the last day. Yet most of them are blissfully unaware of the magnitude of the Father's unrestrained fury awaiting the Churches for wiping His Law completely rather than teaching what Christ taught was needed to obey entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets.

The Law hasn't been wiped away in the hearts of the reborn.
It is manifested by loving God above all else and our neighbors as ourselves.
How does not eating bacon accomplish that?
How does circumcision accomplish that?
Or tithing, temple worship, animal sacrifice, or any other OT tenet that Jesus has freed us from?

As the Jews ended up (murdering) the Messiah who had come to save them we ended up crucifying God's Law ( Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:15, and failed to teach the doctrine of Christ ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, John 14:15, John 14:18, John 14:21 Romans 6:14)

You may be describing the false church, but not the real one.

If Colossians 2:14 crucifies God's eternal, perfect Law on the Cross of Christ, Romans 6:14 deals a crushing blow to both--- God's eternal law and Christ's doctrine of loving-kindness by replacing Christ's pristine doctrine with something called Grace --- a word Jesus never taught or uttered
"For you are not under Law, but under grace." a favorite verse, teaching, and the doctrine of 99% of Churches even today...

Why didn't "God's eternal, perfect Law" make anyone perfect?
It couldn't.
The NT can...without circumcision, tithing, feast keeping, Sabbath days, temple sacrifices, dietary restrictions, travel and cooking restrictions, clothing doctrines, etc.
The Law was the shadow of the coming fulfillment of the Law by Jesus Christ.
If we bring back the Law, Jesus died for nothing.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Not true. I never said Paul attacked the law of God.

Paul never even attacked the law of Moses.

Please stop misrepresenting what I say.


The laws and commandments of God are eternal.

The law of Moses was temporary.

Yup you never ever said "Paul attacked the law of God." In fact you have robustly defended him consistently. It is I who has repeatedly targeted Paul for his inconsistencies
But if you read that sentence I wrote, I meant, and lemme paraphrase---" You (JLB) always say that it's Law of Moses that paul meant whenever he says in Bible the "Law is dead" or the "Law stands crucified" in Colossians 2:14 or "Law is abolished" in Ephesians 2:15"
My question to you JLB , and I'm asking very respectfully sir, "Why do you think Paul was referring exclusively to the rules and law of Moses and not the law of God when he ( paul) repeatedly says Law is dead?"
I'm asking because almost every church across the globe for the past 500 years ( and not just me) interpreted and have taught the public( based on Pauline teachings/utterances 37 times ) that God-Given Law on Mount Sinai handwritten with His finger ( Deuteronomy 9:10) now stands dead and abolished and that we Christians/ believers are under "GRACE" which Jesus never taught or even uttered of course.

 

[rogerg]

IS THE LAW OF GOD DEAD OR NOT?

Not dead, but we need to realize what God's law actually is. It is explained to us by God through Paul in Romans 8:1 &2

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

At the highest spiritual level, these two laws comprise God's law

 

[JLB]

My question to you JLB , and I'm asking very respectfully sir, "Why do you think Paul was referring exclusively to the rules and law of Moses and not the law of God when he ( paul) repeatedly says Law is dead?"

For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:19-21

• not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ

Plainly Paul understood and taught the he and those he wrote to, were NOT WITHOUT LAW TOWARD GOD, BUT UNDER LAW TOWARD CHRIST.



And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:1-19

• What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, until the Seed should come.


The Abrahamic Covenant was made by the Lord Jesus before He became flesh, between Himself and Abraham and Abraham’s descendants.


The Abrahamic Covenant contained God’s laws and commandments which Abraham learned directly from the Lord, by faith.


Abraham obeyed these laws and commandments faithfully because he walked with God in His Presence in which he had a living relationship with Him and heard His Voice and received His instructions the way we are to do today.


We have the Lord Jesus Christ in us, and He has written His laws and commandments on our heart and mind.



This is what Paul taught and lived out daily.






JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:19-21

• not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ

Plainly Paul understood and taught the he and those he wrote to, were NOT WITHOUT LAW TOWARD GOD, BUT UNDER LAW TOWARD CHRIST.



And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:1-19

• What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, until the Seed should come.


The Abrahamic Covenant was made by the Lord Jesus before He became flesh, between Himself and Abraham and Abraham’s descendants.


The Abrahamic Covenant contained God’s laws and commandments which Abraham learned directly from the Lord, by faith.


Abraham obeyed these laws and commandments faithfully because he walked with God in His Presence in which he had a living relationship with Him and heard His Voice and received His instructions the way we are to do today.


We have the Lord Jesus Christ in us, and He has written His laws and commandments on our heart and mind.



This is what Paul taught and lived out daily.






JLB

It seems whatever this Pharisee ( Paul) says you take it as WORD OF GOD, the scripture. Right? why not then accept his submission in 2 Corinthians 12:16
CRAFTY fellow that I (Paul) am, I took you in by DECEIT
What's wrong with accepting this too, especially in light of Christ warns in Matthew 5:37 "Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one."

If Paul is calling himself CRAFTY and DECEITFUL why not accept that graciously too JLB?
If you wish not to, tell me why did paul call himself Crafty and Deceiver---words reserved for the devil?

​

 

[JLB]

It seems whatever this Pharisee ( Paul) says you take it as WORD OF GOD, the scripture. Right? why not then accept his submission in 2 Corinthians 12:16
CRAFTY fellow that I (Paul) am, I took you in by DECEIT
What's wrong with accepting this too, especially in light of Christ warns in Matthew 5:37 "Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one."

If Paul is calling himself CRAFTY and DECEITFUL why not accept that graciously too JLB?
If you wish not to, tell me why did paul call himself Crafty and Deceiver---words reserved for the devil?

​

Same scripture. —


For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:19-21

• I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law

Paul related to each person whether Jew or Gentile, in a way that they to could understand, so they would not reject him and His message.

His driving motive was to win people to Christ.




And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved.
But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning! Did I take advantage of you by any of those whom I sent to you? I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?
Again, do you think that we excuse ourselves to you? We speak before God in Christ. But we do all things, beloved, for your edification.
2 Corinthians 12:15-19

Crafty — Strong's G3835 - panourgos​

1. skilful, clever
   1. in a good sense, fit to undertake and accomplish anything, dexterous, wise, sagacious, skilful
   2. in a bad sense, crafty, cunning, knavish, treacherous, deceitful

Do you believe Paul was trying to deceive people into serving Satan, or being clever and wise to see people come to Christ, and serve the Lord?






JLB

 

[PeterJens]

It seems whatever this Pharisee ( Paul) says you take it as WORD OF GOD, the scripture. Right? why not then accept his submission in 2 Corinthians 12:16
CRAFTY fellow that I (Paul) am, I took you in by DECEIT
What's wrong with accepting this too, especially in light of Christ warns in Matthew 5:37 "Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one."

If Paul is calling himself CRAFTY and DECEITFUL why not accept that graciously too JLB?
If you wish not to, tell me why did paul call himself Crafty and Deceiver---words reserved for the devil?

​

This is an interesting take on Paul. Paul is actually looking at his words and saying he set up an idea which demonstrated his point, but he feels bad he took this approach, though the point he made is true.

People who want to understand God but have a closed heart and shut their emotions out, kept under massive control and repression, will not hear Jesus or Paul or why the commandments were given.

Paul is basically saying when love invades your life and sets you free you become a law keeper, because the law is the outward expression of this love. Once people grasp this reality, you cannot walk with Jesus in the Holy Spirit and say sinful behaviour falls under grace and is now ignored.

Grace exists so that change can occur. Without grace a repentant sinner would be lost, because there is still so much that needs to shift and learn. The reason for the temple and sacrifices, continually was to empower this walk, and to help resolve failure with getting up and walking on.

The problem I have come across is the idea we have arrived by being part of group, the "elect", rather than we walk with Jesus as His body, growing and sharing acts of love one to another. Fundamentally we are emotional creatures, built from our family and life experience, which Jesus can reform and bring into the Kingdom. But we have to be prepared to die to the old self and live to the Kingdom. What we have in Bethel is a wonder show, where change is replaced with emotional spectacle, where behaviour is changed into belonging. And when this fails, and people fail to tow the line, get kicked out, like they are satans spawn.

I got involved in a long discussion with one member on a forum who talked about Holy Spirit empowerment being everything, and change of life and living love, was old style christianity of tea parties etc. Unfortunately on an emotional scale conformity to a life style is not the gospel, which many pursued in faith groups, which was seen as part of keeping the law. So the sabbath was a special day, on which you did not work etc. But in expressing love to others, doing work on a Sunday can be a gift of God. It makes love and the law complicated, and not a clear cut resolution that Israel faced.

God bless you

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Same scripture. —


For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:19-21

• I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law

Paul related to each person whether Jew or Gentile, in a way that they to could understand, so they would not reject him and His message.

His driving motive was to win people to Christ.




And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved.
But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning! Did I take advantage of you by any of those whom I sent to you? I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?
Again, do you think that we excuse ourselves to you? We speak before God in Christ. But we do all things, beloved, for your edification.
2 Corinthians 12:15-19

Crafty — Strong's G3835 - panourgos​

1. skilful, clever
   1. in a good sense, fit to undertake and accomplish anything, dexterous, wise, sagacious, skilful
   2. in a bad sense, crafty, cunning, knavish, treacherous, deceitful

Do you believe Paul was trying to deceive people into serving Satan, or being clever and wise to see people come to Christ, and serve the Lord?






JLB

That was a very long answer and yet I'm not able to understand why did Paul say he is crafty , and deceiver who deceived the Corinthian Church ( through deceit ) 2 Corinthians 12: 16.
For the sake of brevity and conciseness, can you please explain in a sentence or two max, why did Apostle Paul deceive them, using crafty means ?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

This is an interesting take on Paul. Paul is actually looking at his words and saying he set up an idea which demonstrated his point, but he feels bad he took this approach, though the point he made is true.

People who want to understand God but have a closed heart and shut their emotions out, kept under massive control and repression, will not hear Jesus or Paul or why the commandments were given.

Paul is basically saying when love invades your life and sets you free you become a law keeper, because the law is the outward expression of this love. Once people grasp this reality, you cannot walk with Jesus in the Holy Spirit and say sinful behaviour falls under grace and is now ignored.

Grace exists so that change can occur. Without grace a repentant sinner would be lost, because there is still so much that needs to shift and learn. The reason for the temple and sacrifices, continually was to empower this walk, and to help resolve failure with getting up and walking on.

The problem I have come across is the idea we have arrived by being part of group, the "elect", rather than we walk with Jesus as His body, growing and sharing acts of love one to another. Fundamentally we are emotional creatures, built from our family and life experience, which Jesus can reform and bring into the Kingdom. But we have to be prepared to die to the old self and live to the Kingdom. What we have in Bethel is a wonder show, where change is replaced with emotional spectacle, where behaviour is changed into belonging. And when this fails, and people fail to tow the line, get kicked out, like they are satans spawn.

I got involved in a long discussion with one member on a forum who talked about Holy Spirit empowerment being everything, and change of life and living love, was old style christianity of tea parties etc. Unfortunately on an emotional scale conformity to a life style is not the gospel, which many pursued in faith groups, which was seen as part of keeping the law. So the sabbath was a special day, on which you did not work etc. But in expressing love to others, doing work on a Sunday can be a gift of God. It makes love and the law complicated, and not a clear cut resolution that Israel faced.

God bless you

Relying on what Proverbs 10:19 teaches , can I please request a more succint , objective, breviloquent reply ---- in a line or two max . Many thanks

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

amen -

Matthew 5:19 says something similar and curious - there will be people in the kingdom/saved who break God's laws and teach others to do the same - prophetic regarding the future misunderstanding of paul's words?

different than what you mentioned regarding unsaved God-hating murderers etc

another good point you brought up is God said to call no man father for only God is our Father and Teacher - yet paul calls himself a father and teacher

there is a list of issues where paul contradicts God and himself - so peter john james paul all made many mistakes recorded in the nt but all red words/GOD'S WORDS are pure and trustworthy

That ( Matthew 5: 19) was a very good catch Truth , my compliments Christ seldom ( if at all ever) contradicted himself
But upon researching origin of this verse in Greek from where all translations come , I found the word is not breaking one the Law, but "loosening' the least bit ( of the Law)
To loosen or bend is substantially different from breaking . Obviously an error in translation. I would encourage you to check it out using the Greek lexicon.
Law breakers were creators of Lawlessness and were condemned by Christ in Matthew 7: 21-23
Law benders could yet survive the judgment it appears , although as the least ones in eternal sanctuary of God. Best would be to obey the law comprehensively through practicing loving kindness consistently as Christ taught ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7 : 12, Matthew 25:31-46), and similarly mentioned in Proverbs 10:12, 1 Peter 4:8)

 

[JLB]

That was a very long answer and yet I'm not able to understand why did Paul say he is crafty , and deceiver who deceived the Corinthian Church ( through deceit ) 2 Corinthians 12: 16.
For the sake of brevity and conciseness, can you please explain in a sentence or two max, why did Apostle Paul deceive them, using crafty means ?

And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved.
But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning! Did I take advantage of you by any of those whom I sent to you? I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?
Again, do you think that we excuse ourselves to you? We speak before God in Christ. But we do all things, beloved, for your edification.
2 Corinthians 12:15-19

Crafty — Strong's G3835 - panourgos​

1. skilful, clever
   1. in a good sense, fit to undertake and accomplish anything, dexterous, wise, sagacious, skilful
   2. in a bad sense, crafty, cunning, knavish, treacherous, deceitful

Question:

Do you believe Paul was trying to deceive people into serving Satan, or being clever and wise to see people come to Christ, and serve the Lord?