Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Hopeful]

Paul gave us all a very exacting Spiritual Transcription of every law or command in the entire Bible in Romans 13:8-10

IF anyone reads any law, and can't figure it out, they need lessons from the Holy Spirit

In any case, Paul essentially also guaranteed us that the evil present within no one is going to be following any law, no matter how it's written, Romans 7:21

Paul was talking about his pre-conversion self in Rom 7:21, and not his post-conversion self.
As Paul wrote in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
That is his post-conversion self.
Free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Hopeful]

Here is Romans 7:6 from the NET 2.1 translation, "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."
So Paul was writing about the old written code, in effect before the Spirit was given.

Letter of the Law...written code...they are the same thing.

This is a great example of why I use a modern translation. "... the oldness of the letter" is rarely, if ever, used in modern English. It's an example of outdated, confusing translation.

Not to derail this, but I find the newer translations to be instrumental in the softening of God's word.
And thereby hindering God's commitment to free men from sinning.

 

[smaller]

Paul was talking about his pre-conversion self in Rom 7:21, and not his post-conversion self.
As Paul wrote in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
That is his post-conversion self.
Free from the law of sin and death.

Oh, I think not.

Paul assuredly did not become sinless, even for a nanosecond, after salvation. See 1 Tim 1:15 for his own "I am" confession of being the chief of sinners, post conversion. He did say "I was" or "I used to be." Just as Paul says evil "is present" with me, not "was present" or "used to be present" with me in Romans 7:21

No, those are present tense statements of fact by Paul, as it should be for any truth teller. We all know our minds are subject to temptations of the tempter. Would that make "evil present" with us as well? I'd certainly have to say yes to that one.

Although some fringe elements of christianity do think that this is not the case, and they are either always sinless or temporarily sinless in vacillating fashions, after salvation.

I'm definitely not in any of those camps. I'm a present tense sinner, just as Paul said he was, saved by Grace and Mercy in Jesus Christ.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

You have the message Sister Wondering You always had it. I'm so so glad for you . I've come to the conclusion it's not easy to understand that message...which was Love.
We get what we give to others( we reap what we sow) , is a consistent Biblical principal to throughout the book. Jesus repeatedly taught us to turn away from sin and turn to loving compassion, practicing loving kindness...giving Grace to others . Why? So that on the last day Grace may be shown to us as well!
The message then is "Grace will be given only to those who gave Grace to others" , and I believe that's why Jesus gave us the judgment day vision in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus showed loving kindness to those ( The Sheep) who showed loving kindness to others in their lifetime. The goats were rejected because they did not have works of Loving--kindness and hence were rejected. All this helped me understand that the "Grace" that emanates from Christ's death on the cross, is imputed and applied only to ones who practiced / obeyed His commands of Love ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 5:42-44 to name a few). Thus Perfect Justice was served on the last day. And this event ( Matthew 25: 31-46) and the metric Christ the judge used there in to save/ condemn cannot be changed, no matter which Church teaches what. Hence my repeated requests to all. The only thing that really intrigues me is why don't the Churches I talk to, get it? What's so hard to understand, especially when Christ Himself is revealing it, and never contradicted it.
Well my happiness lies in at least more are getting it.
The Lord tells me the "New Wine ( interpretation) will need new wineskins". History is repeating itself . New generation will not accept the Christ rejected doctrine of "Saved by Grace alone." ( He neither taught nor used Grace to save) They will prayerfully be more attentive to the words and warnings of Jesus. One of the best ways to understand the simple message of Christ is to repeatedly read / study the Sermon on the Mount teaching of Jesus , called by many Bible scholars as the greatest piece of Christ's teaching. It's impact is majorly profound and it's depth is immeasurable. Blessings and Love to all. May all hearts turn to Christ . For it's all about Christ and is always about Him. And He in turn always pointed at Love when explaining His doctrine of Salvation. We become His reflection when we turn away from sin and turn to loving compassion. Because God and Son are Love. I'm not going to paste the verses again!
When anyone new to Christianity asks me about Christ , my one word synopsis of Christ's teaching is LOVING-KINDNESS.
Based on everything Jesus taught , I made this one line sentence / saying for future generations of every country culture and religion :
" If it does not end in love,
It will not end well "

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

always demanded obedience from us.

Why is it so hard for Churches to get what you just wrote? Jesus says three times in one chapter itself!

John 14: 15
" If you I've me you shall obey my commands".
Meaning very clearly that if you're not willing to obey me you have no love for me ( Jesus)

John 14: 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps ( obeys) them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.

John 14: 23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Sister Wondering I've come to the conclusion a 7th Grader is likely to teach better than most churches ... Simply because they will explain in simple words what Jesus meant " "Dude you're not stepping in my heaven if you ain't keepin my orders"
Yet somehow the Churches managed to change even the straightforward meaning ( and warnings contained there in) . Kudos to you Churches for accomplishing the impossible! Do you see how they reduced the whole message into a farce of "saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone"
Jesus will come n tap them on the shoulders and ask 'em " That doctrine sounds really cool guys. But err' what happened to my obedience call boys?"
So, so close to the big C word on the big J day. Blissfully aware of their king-sized Folly . Now I know why Solomon in Proverbs repeatedly talks in such derogatory words / language about fools! Even saying a large cane on their backs!

Proverbs 26:3

A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!

Just trying to make it lighter guys for your entertainment . But it's fraught with peril and perdition
Mass hypnosis.... mass deception?
How could this have happened. It beats the script of a C grade movie, which struggled to make it to the screen!

Hi Rajesh
You know that I agree with you about this.
Grace is very much misunderstood these days.
I often wonder how we got here...I believe it took a couple of hundred years to evolve to the faith only/only grace belief, which is not biblical at all.
I believe Matthew chapters 5 and 7 teach us pretty much what we need to know.

Faith only is a dangerous teaching that will lead many to the wide road since God has always demanded obedience from us.

 

[jaybo]

I hope you are not saying circumcision is necessary for salvation.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said that and never would.

 

[Hopeful]

Oh, I think not.

Paul assuredly did not become sinless, even for a nanosecond, after salvation. See 1 Tim 1:15 for his own "I am" confession of being the chief of sinners, post conversion. He did say "I was" or "I used to be." Just as Paul says evil "is present" with me, not "was present" or "used to be present" with me in Romans 7:21

No, those are present tense statements of fact by Paul, as it should be for any truth teller. We all know our minds are subject to temptations of the tempter. Would that make "evil present" with us as well? I'd certainly have to say yes to that one.

Although some fringe elements of christianity do think that this is not the case, and they are either always sinless or temporarily sinless in vacillating fashions, after salvation.

I'm definitely not in any of those camps. I'm a present tense sinner, just as Paul said he was, saved by Grace and Mercy in Jesus Christ.

Our opinions don't align.
And I, like Paul, am the worst of those saved.

 

[Hopeful]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said that and never would.

Sorry, I thought you were agreeing with a poster who was in favor of Law keeping. (Not the ten commandments, but Sabbath keeping, tithing, feast keeping, abstaining from pork and shell fish, etc)

 

[GodsGrace]

Why is it so hard for Churches to get what you just wrote? Jesus says three times in one chapter itself!

John 14: 15
" If you I've me you shall obey my commands".
Meaning very clearly that if you're not willing to obey me you have no love for me ( Jesus)

John 14: 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps ( obeys) them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.

John 14: 23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Of course the above verses imply that if we do NOT keep Jesus teachings does not love Him.
This is why He said that we must love Him, God, above all else or we will not be able to keep His commandments.

Some will say that Jesus said to Love God, ourselves and our neighbor. But what does this mean?
Is it enough to only love someone or do we show that love in some way?
Jesus said TO DO...love must be expressed. It's useless to love someone if it's not followed by actions.

Somewhere along the line it began to be taught that it is faith in God that saves us.
I read many say that Jesus has done it all....we just have to believe.
The problem is that:
1. Jesus never said this.
2. In the language of that day, simple or Koine Greek, believe meant something different than it does today. Believing required action and not just a simple belief of the mind.

It would be interesting to study some history about this - which I've never done.
We DO have to believe in order to be saved.
But faith alone is not enough.....

And I can hear it now....NOTHING IS TO BE ADDED TO FAITH.
As you've put it...it is incorrect teaching by some churches.

Sister Wondering I've come to the conclusion a 7th Grader is likely to teach better than most churches ... Simply because they will explain in simple words what Jesus meant " "Dude you're not stepping in my heaven if you ain't keepin my orders"
Yet somehow the Churches managed to change even the straightforward meaning ( and warnings contained there in) . Kudos to you Churches for accomplishing the impossible! Do you see how they reduced the whole message into a farce of "saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone"
Jesus will come n tap them on the shoulders and ask 'em " That doctrine sounds really cool guys. But err' what happened to my obedience call boys?"
So, so close to the big C word on the big J day. Blissfully aware of their king-sized Folly . Now I know why Solomon in Proverbs repeatedly talks in such derogatory words / language about fools! Even saying a large cane on their backs!

​

Proverbs 26:3

​

A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!

Just trying to make it lighter guys for your entertainment . But it's fraught with peril and perdition
Mass hypnosis.... mass deception?
How could this have happened. It beats the script of a C grade movie, which struggled to make it to the screen!

Fraught with peril and perdition.
Right.

 

[Truthfrees]

You are rewording the scripture...It is written..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Choose which one you will walk in.
The Spirit or the flesh.

in the flesh - exactly - under the law of sin and death

when you are in the Spirit you are in the law of the Spirit of Life

 

[Hopeful]

in the flesh - exactly - under the law of sin and death

when you are in the Spirit you are in the law of the Spirit of Life

Beautiful.
My wish and prayer is that all cast aside the flesh and walk in the Spirit.

 

[Truthfrees]

The "oldness of the letter" was the "letter of the Law".

He has, however, changed His mind about a few things.
Like the destruction of the world before having mercy on Noah and his family.
And Nineveh.


They may never pass away, but they may no longer apply at some time.
Do you feel that you can adhere to all 400(?) aspects of the Law of Moses?
If you adopt one facet, you adopt all of them.

It is written..."Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." (Heb 10:8-9)

It is written..." This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal 3:2-3)

It is written..."For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." (Gal 3:10-11)

so it is cursed to not steal - not commit adultery - not dishonor God -not be dishonest in business - not dishonor parents - not kidnapping - not raping - not killing - keeping sabbath holy - not eating carnivores omnivores scavengers - and choosing to by every word that comes from the mouth of God

peter said paul is hard to understand - you are now saying that someone like me who loves keeping God's laws as a holy lifestyle is cursed?

did i tell you you have to keep them? - don't if you don't want to - it's between you and God how you live - eat all the pork you want - did i tell you not to? - all is said is even medical science says pork is not good for you -which is a testimony to how God never spoke a throw away word - everything He said is the purest of wisdom

 

[Truthfrees]

Are you prepared to walk in all the tenets of the Law?
Won't it be a sin to just forget about the other 398 Laws?
Temple worship and sacrificial animals? Tithing? Feast keeping? Kosher foods?
Priesthood?
Circumcision?

i already walk the ones that apply to me of the 613 - easily and with pleasure and receive blessings for it by the power of the Spirit of God - do i do it to be saved? - nope - God never said that was the way to be saved - He said this is how to live holy

are you saying you can't? - are you saying when it says do not kill you get an incontrollable urge to go kill someone? - when it says don't commit adultery you feel a sudden urge to commit adultery? - when it says love God with all your heart soul mind and strength you feel a hatred for God rise up inside you?

 

[Hopeful]

so it is cursed to not steal - not commit adultery - not dishonor God -not be dishonest in business - not dishonor parents - not kidnapping - not raping - not killing - keeping sabbath holy - not eating carnivores omnivores scavengers - and choosing to by every word that comes from the mouth of God

I don't know what I said to prompt that question.
It is anything but a curse to serve God.

peter said paul is hard to understand - you are now saying that someone like me who loves keeping God's laws as a holy lifestyle is cursed?

Not at all.
But you have made it clear that your adherence to dietary law and Sabbath keeping are not because it is necessary for salvation.

did i tell you you have to keep them? - don't if you don't want to - it's between you and God how you live - eat all the pork you want - did i tell you not to? - all is said is even medical science says pork is not good for you -which is a testimony to how God never spoke a throw away word - everything He said is the purest of wisdom

It is written..."Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." (1 Tim 4:1-5)
I am glad you still believe that if you did eat pork or crab that they are sanctified by God and prayer.

 

[Hopeful]

i already walk the ones that apply to me of the 613 - easily and with pleasure and receive blessings for it by the power of the Spirit of God - do i do it to be saved? - nope - God never said that was the way to be saved - He said this is how to live holy

I am glad for you.
But I live holy by NT dictates and not OT commands.

are you saying you can't? - are you saying when it says do not kill you get an incontrollable urge to go kill someone? - when it says don't commit adultery you feel a sudden urge to commit adultery? - when it says love God with all your heart soul mind and strength you feel a hatred for God rise up inside you?

I don't know about "can't", but as it isn't necessary, I feel no inclination to adhere to that which could not make man perfect.
As I am a new creature now, with a new divine nature, I have no urges to kill or steal or commit adultery.

 

[Truthfrees]

I don't know what I said to prompt that question.
It is anything but a curse to serve God.

Not at all.
But you have made it clear that your adherence to dietary law and Sabbath keeping are not because it is necessary for salvation.


It is written..."Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." (1 Tim 4:1-5)
I am glad you still believe that if you did eat pork or crab that they are sanctified by God and prayer.

why would i eat something unhealthy when God supplied so much good to eat

there is profound wisdom in everything God said - science even has to admit it

God didn't make up 613 laws to then say later never mind I change My mind - He didn't give appointed feasts to then say never mind I was wrong - aren't you even he slightest bit curious why God chose to say the things He did? - have you never wondered what could be the reason behind some of the things God commanded? - i was and am - i ask God all the time why did you say that? - and when i find out i stand in awe of Him yet again

 

[Hopeful]

why would i eat something unhealthy when God supplied so much good to eat

there is profound wisdom in everything God said - science even has to admit it

God didn't make up 613 laws to then say later never mind I change My mind - He didn't give appointed feasts to then say never mind I was wrong - aren't you even he slightest bit curious why God chose to say the things He did? - have you never wondered what could be the reason behind some of the things God commanded? - i was and am - i ask God all the time why did you say that? - and when i find out i stand in awe of Him yet again

It isn't unhealthy anymore, especially after God sanctifies it.

 

[Truthfrees]

I am glad for you.
But I live holy by NT dictates and not OT commands.

I don't know about "can't", but as it isn't necessary, I feel no inclination to adhere to that which could not make man perfect.
As I am a new creature now, with a new divine nature, I have no urges to kill or steal or commit adultery.

great - then continue living happily in God and learn to appreciate that others are doing the same even if they disagree with your theology as per Romans 14

 

[Truthfrees]

It isn't unhealthy anymore, especially after God sanctifies it.

well then by that standard you can eat fries and burgers and coke and cookies and ice-cream to your hearts content - and you can give that kind of diet to children and old people - if God's diet doesn't seem amazingly wise to you then that is fine with me - God speaks to different people about different things - as long as everyone is having a happy time with God their Redeemer then there is nothing to complain about

 

[smaller]

Our opinions don't align.
And I, like Paul, am the worst of those saved.

Paul defined himself as "sinners, of whom I am" chief. Not was or used to be. And it appears that you agree that it was not a past tense statement, but present tense. Just as Romans 7:19, 7:21 and 7:25 are likewise, present tense, post salvation statements