Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Hopeful]

Amen. I got the whole blast of legalism when a friend pressured me to attend a messianic Church. Before I continue I wish not to judge or offend members of such churches.
I'm talking about my own experiences. They believed in Jesus as sin of God and the promised Messiah BUT then they would celebrate lot of Jewish festivals and observations. I felt extremely uncomfortable in those gatherings . They referred to OT as Torah and mostly studied Torah every Saturday which was the Shabbat. Coming from a Bible based Church which was founded by mostly NASA employees who were strict about everything being Scriptural, and yes we were passionately partial towards Jesus That dynamic hadn't changed in my heart although I stopped going to Churches. Even my own Church until they stop teaching Easy Believism . Inspite of all that I was infinitely more comfortable in my Christian Church than the messianic Church. I told them what's the point in backsliding into legalism ? One of the premier reasons Jesus came was to end all this legalism and teach us how to observe the entire teachings of Father God and the Prophets , through " circumcision of the heart" ...turning away from sin and turning to Love and kindness . Loving the Father and the fellow human being would enable a true Christ follower to obey the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets, taught Jesus. Apostle John repeats that message ( and the vital importance to become loving rather than hateful and judgmental).
I believe new wine and new wineskins will come. New generation always springs surprises and hope. They will sift the Word especially the words of Jesus and have interactive Churches, so that the risk of uniting in error is mitigated at least to some extent. Respectful and knowledgeable debates will lead to better understanding rather than dogmatic assertions of teachers .
It's so much easier to access information now. No room for mistakes and errors. May the Lord Christ's teachings , undiluted , unwareed prevail in the World is a sincere desire of the heart . One request I do make to all Churches . Put Christ's Words before anyone in the Bible, Dave Father God's words. In NT teachings repeatedly teach the four gospels , until the Churchgoer gets saturated with CHRIST. Obedience must be taught . Just thinking aloud here guys. I myself have founded an online ministry called Christ's Words First Ministries. Still in the process of developing a website . As the name suggests , it's all about concentrated teachings of Jesus, the perfect Son and reflection of the Father. Since I do not, and will not charge a penny in any form, I'm using my own funds to finance the Ministry which is taking forever to take off . I have founded a Meetup group in my city , to bring about Christ awareness. But Covid struck days after the group was formed. Still have 30 odd members. But Grace of God it will grow if God wills it. I wish nothing beyond His will . Everything must be conformed to His Will. All my prayers end in one line " Lord answer my prayer ONLY if it's thy will, else please do not . And no matter what Your. Will. Must. Be. Done!
It's an irony guys , I'm not liked by most family members in India due to I being a Christian and they being Hindus.
And Christians do not like me much either because of my interpretation of the Word. Quite a situation I'm in!!! . Not very pleasant I must say. Yet my comfort and reliance is the Lord. Simply obsessed with Jesus..Enough of this . Good night and God bless you. May the deep wisdom of the Lord permeate our hearts and souls and His Word go deep into our being. And as the Baptist says , which is a favorite perdition of mine, "Jesus must increase, but I must decrease...until only He's left in me and I'm gone .... That will be a happy day for me...when I finally depart.
Lots and lots of love to you and yours, friends .

Wow !
What a great testimony !
I too have left the "main-stream" churches in favor of one aligned with God's word.
We teach that a man can be free of sin, and to live perfectly, according to His word.
May the Lord bless your endeavors in Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Again, the 10 Commandments are not the Law of Moses.

The law of Moses was temporary, His commandments are eternal.

On these two points, you and Rajesh Sahu agree.
Just because he doesn't specifically say "Law of Moses", it has led to a divide between you two.

Please don't let this fester.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Wow !
What a great testimony !
I too have left the "main-stream" churches in favor of one aligned with God's word.
We teach that a man can be free of sin, and to live perfectly, according to His word.
May the Lord bless your endeavors in Christ.

Thank you for your kind words...much appreciated . I'm not a judge or an expert, it's just my own understanding of the Word , but I think you got the message. You understand what it was all about, and why it was taught , what was taught.
Hopefully, even prayerfully, you will use this enormous blessing to share with others, and mentor new Christians, so that they may accurately understand what the Son of God taught, and why ( and for whom) did He lay down His life
One candle can light a hundred others without losing its own own flame. Let us all be a light for the Lord.
I've always considered salvation as byproduct of obedience, and not otherwise . To learn to be obedient to Jesus is far more important to me (John 14:15) than salvation, which should occur ONLY if He wills , else not. I also remember His repeated warnings about condemnation for those who hanker after salvation Luke 9:24, Matthew 16:25
God bless everyone

 

[Hopeful]

Thank you for your kind words...much appreciated . I'm not a judge or an expert, it's just my own understanding of the Word , but I think you got the message. You understand what it was all about, and why it was taught , what was taught.
Hopefully, even prayerfully, you will use this enormous blessing to share with others, and mentor new Christians, so that they may accurately understand what the Son of God taught, and why ( and for whom) did He lay down His life
One candle can light a hundred others without losing its own own flame. Let us all be a light for the Lord.
I've always considered salvation as byproduct of obedience, and not otherwise . To learn to be obedient to Jesus is far more important to me (John 14:15) than salvation, which should occur ONLY if He wills , else not. I also remember His repeated warnings about condemnation for those who hanker after salvation Luke 9:24, Matthew 16:25
God bless everyone

As our salvation won't be assured until after the final judgement, it is pointless to act like we have already been judged faithful till the end.
The "end" may be centuries away.
Walk as if the Lord will be here today!
Manifest always that your repentance from sin is true.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

As our salvation won't be assured until after the final judgement, it is pointless to act like we have already been judged faithful till the end.
The "end" may be centuries away.
Walk as if the Lord will be here today!
Manifest always that your repentance from sin is true.

Amen, Amen and Amen:nod

 

[smaller]

Man (everyone) shall live by every Word of God. Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4

The law stands, period.

The dilemma here is that we all, for the most part, utterly FAIL to keep the laws.

In fact, anyone who says they do keep the laws are either deceived, lying or both

So, in essence, the law stands for the exact reason Paul gave in Romans 7, for the revealing of lawlessness, the condemnation of lawlessness and the condemnation of the lawless

The law has made its forgone conclusion, that we are all guilty, shut up, and dead in our sins

This was always to be the fate that God Himself set for the first, natural, carnal, blinded by the devil enslaved mankind

The only way we get out of prison is by death

Col. 3:3

 

[JLB]

On these two points, you and Rajesh Sahu agree.
Just because he doesn't specifically say "Law of Moses", it has led to a divide between you two.

Please don't let this fester.

As I have stated many times, the law of Moses was temporary, His Commandments are eternal. Just because the law of Moses was abolished with all the animal sacrifices, circumcision requirements, feast days, food laws and so forth, doesn’t mean the 10 Commandments were abolished, because the 10 Commandments did not originate with Moses, but were already a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, that the law of Moses was added to, until the Seed should come and fulfill it.


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19




The law of Moses, which was given at Sinai, is not the same as the Law, the Torah, the first five books of the Bible.

The law of sin and death is yet another law of God and was violated in the garden of Eden, by Adam and Eve and passed on to all humanity through natural child birth.


Understanding these three different laws is crucial to any fruitful discussion.


Abraham walked in Covenant relationship with the Lord, keeping His laws and commandments before Moses was even born.


He was successful in doing this because he walked before the Lord in His presence, and learned from the Lord directly, like Adam was supposed to.


When we walk in His presence and learn from Him we receive faith and grace to do His word; the word of faith.


Not so under the law of Moses.


Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:12


The law of Moses was a complete system of priesthood, ceremonial laws, the observance of specific Sabbath laws, feast days, food laws, circumcision requirements, and so forth, of which were types and shadows of Christ; which were designed to point the children of Israel to Christ.


The law of Moses was specifically for the natural offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were in the land of Promise.



JLB

 

[jaybo]

Amen. I got the whole blast of legalism when a friend pressured me to attend a messianic Church. Before I continue I wish not to judge or offend members of such churches.
I'm talking about my own experiences. They believed in Jesus as sin of God and the promised Messiah BUT then they would celebrate lot of Jewish festivals and observations. I felt extremely uncomfortable in those gatherings . They referred to OT as Torah and mostly studied Torah every Saturday which was the Shabbat. Coming from a Bible based Church which was founded by mostly NASA employees who were strict about everything being Scriptural, and yes we were passionately partial towards Jesus That dynamic hadn't changed in my heart although I stopped going to Churches. Even my own Church until they stop teaching Easy Believism . Inspite of all that I was infinitely more comfortable in my Christian Church than the messianic Church. I told them what's the point in backsliding into legalism ? One of the premier reasons Jesus came was to end all this legalism and teach us how to observe the entire teachings of Father God and the Prophets , through " circumcision of the heart" ...turning away from sin and turning to Love and kindness . Loving the Father and the fellow human being would enable a true Christ follower to obey the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets, taught Jesus. Apostle John repeats that message ( and the vital importance to become loving rather than hateful and judgmental).
I believe new wine and new wineskins will come. New generation always springs surprises and hope. They will sift the Word especially the words of Jesus and have interactive Churches, so that the risk of uniting in error is mitigated at least to some extent. Respectful and knowledgeable debates will lead to better understanding rather than dogmatic assertions of teachers .
It's so much easier to access information now. No room for mistakes and errors. May the Lord Christ's teachings , undiluted , unwareed prevail in the World is a sincere desire of the heart . One request I do make to all Churches . Put Christ's Words before anyone in the Bible, Dave Father God's words. In NT teachings repeatedly teach the four gospels , until the Churchgoer gets saturated with CHRIST. Obedience must be taught . Just thinking aloud here guys. I myself have founded an online ministry called Christ's Words First Ministries. Still in the process of developing a website . As the name suggests , it's all about concentrated teachings of Jesus, the perfect Son and reflection of the Father. Since I do not, and will not charge a penny in any form, I'm using my own funds to finance the Ministry which is taking forever to take off . I have founded a Meetup group in my city , to bring about Christ awareness. But Covid struck days after the group was formed. Still have 30 odd members. But Grace of God it will grow if God wills it. I wish nothing beyond His will . Everything must be conformed to His Will. All my prayers end in one line " Lord answer my prayer ONLY if it's thy will, else please do not . And no matter what Your. Will. Must. Be. Done!
It's an irony guys , I'm not liked by most family members in India due to I being a Christian and they being Hindus.
And Christians do not like me much either because of my interpretation of the Word. Quite a situation I'm in!!! . Not very pleasant I must say. Yet my comfort and reliance is the Lord. Simply obsessed with Jesus..Enough of this . Good night and God bless you. May the deep wisdom of the Lord permeate our hearts and souls and His Word go deep into our being. And as the Baptist says , which is a favorite perdition of mine, "Jesus must increase, but I must decrease...until only He's left in me and I'm gone .... That will be a happy day for me...when I finally depart.
Lots and lots of love to you and yours, friends .

 

[jaybo]

Amen. I got the whole blast of legalism when a friend pressured me to attend a messianic Church. Before I continue I wish not to judge or offend members of such churches.
I'm talking about my own experiences. They believed in Jesus as sin of God and the promised Messiah BUT then they would celebrate lot of Jewish festivals and observations. I felt extremely uncomfortable in those gatherings . They referred to OT as Torah and mostly studied Torah every Saturday which was the Shabbat. Coming from a Bible based Church which was founded by mostly NASA employees who were strict about everything being Scriptural, and yes we were passionately partial towards Jesus That dynamic hadn't changed in my heart although I stopped going to Churches. Even my own Church until they stop teaching Easy Believism . Inspite of all that I was infinitely more comfortable in my Christian Church than the messianic Church. I told them what's the point in backsliding into legalism ? One of the premier reasons Jesus came was to end all this legalism and teach us how to observe the entire teachings of Father God and the Prophets , through " circumcision of the heart" ...turning away from sin and turning to Love and kindness . Loving the Father and the fellow human being would enable a true Christ follower to obey the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets, taught Jesus. Apostle John repeats that message ( and the vital importance to become loving rather than hateful and judgmental).
I believe new wine and new wineskins will come. New generation always springs surprises and hope. They will sift the Word especially the words of Jesus and have interactive Churches, so that the risk of uniting in error is mitigated at least to some extent. Respectful and knowledgeable debates will lead to better understanding rather than dogmatic assertions of teachers .
It's so much easier to access information now. No room for mistakes and errors. May the Lord Christ's teachings , undiluted , unwareed prevail in the World is a sincere desire of the heart . One request I do make to all Churches . Put Christ's Words before anyone in the Bible, Dave Father God's words. In NT teachings repeatedly teach the four gospels , until the Churchgoer gets saturated with CHRIST. Obedience must be taught . Just thinking aloud here guys. I myself have founded an online ministry called Christ's Words First Ministries. Still in the process of developing a website . As the name suggests , it's all about concentrated teachings of Jesus, the perfect Son and reflection of the Father. Since I do not, and will not charge a penny in any form, I'm using my own funds to finance the Ministry which is taking forever to take off . I have founded a Meetup group in my city , to bring about Christ awareness. But Covid struck days after the group was formed. Still have 30 odd members. But Grace of God it will grow if God wills it. I wish nothing beyond His will . Everything must be conformed to His Will. All my prayers end in one line " Lord answer my prayer ONLY if it's thy will, else please do not . And no matter what Your. Will. Must. Be. Done!
It's an irony guys , I'm not liked by most family members in India due to I being a Christian and they being Hindus.
And Christians do not like me much either because of my interpretation of the Word. Quite a situation I'm in!!! . Not very pleasant I must say. Yet my comfort and reliance is the Lord. Simply obsessed with Jesus..Enough of this . Good night and God bless you. May the deep wisdom of the Lord permeate our hearts and souls and His Word go deep into our being. And as the Baptist says , which is a favorite perdition of mine, "Jesus must increase, but I must decrease...until only He's left in me and I'm gone .... That will be a happy day for me...when I finally depart.
Lots and lots of love to you and yours, friends .

You wrote "They believed in Jesus as sin of God and the promised Messiah BUT then they would celebrate lot of Jewish festivals and observations. I felt extremely uncomfortable in those gatherings . They referred to OT as Torah and mostly studied Torah every Saturday which was the Shabbat."

I realize that I'm taking only a small part of your post, but I don't see anything wrong at all with the above. Christianity has its roots in Judaism. The Torah is a major part of the OT, which is part of the Bible, and there is nothing wrong at all with studying it on the Sabbath.

Romans 11:11-12, " I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration bring?"

Romans 11:17-21, "Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root, do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you."

Perhaps you should revisit the church and learn from their inclusion of their Jewish heritage. To me, it's no different than reading the Declaration of Independence on July 4; it's respecting one's past.

 

[Hopeful]

Man (everyone) shall live by every Word of God. Matt 4:4, Luke 4:4

The law stands, period.

The dilemma here is that we all, for the most part, utterly FAIL to keep the laws.

In fact, anyone who says they do keep the laws are either deceived, lying or both

So, in essence, the law stands for the exact reason Paul gave in Romans 7, for the revealing of lawlessness, the condemnation of lawlessness and the condemnation of the lawless

The law has made its forgone conclusion, that we are all guilty, shut up, and dead in our sins

This was always to be the fate that God Himself set for the first, natural, carnal, blinded by the devil enslaved mankind

The only way we get out of prison is by death

Col. 3:3

Amen to that.
Thanks be to God, though, for giving us the opportunity to die at our baptism into Christ and into His death.
And to be buried with Him and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life ! (Rom 6:3-6)
The result?
"For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)

 

[Hopeful]

As I have stated many times, the law of Moses was temporary, His Commandments are eternal. Just because the law of Moses was abolished with all the animal sacrifices, circumcision requirements, feast days, food laws and so forth, doesn’t mean the 10 Commandments were abolished, because the 10 Commandments did not originate with Moses, but were already a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, that the law of Moses was added to, until the Seed should come and fulfill it.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19
The law of Moses, which was given at Sinai, is not the same as the Law, the Torah, the first five books of the Bible.
The law of sin and death is yet another law of God and was violated in the garden of Eden, by Adam and Eve and passed on to all humanity through natural child birth.
Understanding these three different laws is crucial to any fruitful discussion.
Abraham walked in Covenant relationship with the Lord, keeping His laws and commandments before Moses was even born.
He was successful in doing this because he walked before the Lord in His presence, and learned from the Lord directly, like Adam was supposed to.
When we walk in His presence and learn from Him we receive faith and grace to do His word; the word of faith.
Not so under the law of Moses.
Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:12
The law of Moses was a complete system of priesthood, ceremonial laws, the observance of specific Sabbath laws, feast days, food laws, circumcision requirements, and so forth, of which were types and shadows of Christ; which were designed to point the children of Israel to Christ.
The law of Moses was specifically for the natural offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were in the land of Promise.

We all agree on these points.

 

[Hopeful]

You wrote "They believed in Jesus as sin of God and the promised Messiah BUT then they would celebrate lot of Jewish festivals and observations. I felt extremely uncomfortable in those gatherings . They referred to OT as Torah and mostly studied Torah every Saturday which was the Shabbat."

I realize that I'm taking only a small part of your post, but I don't see anything wrong at all with the above. Christianity has its roots in Judaism. The Torah is a major part of the OT, which is part of the Bible, and there is nothing wrong at all with studying it on the Sabbath.

Romans 11:11-12, " I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration bring?"

Romans 11:17-21, "Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root, do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you."

Perhaps you should revisit the church and learn from their inclusion of their Jewish heritage. To me, it's no different than reading the Declaration of Independence on July 4; it's respecting one's past.

If you had been freed from prison, would you go back for visits?
I do realize the value of studying from whence our religion came from, but the practicing of those ways was precluded by my death to them.
It is written..."But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Rom 7:6)

 

[jaybo]

If you had been freed from prison, would you go back for visits?
I do realize the value of studying from whence our religion came from, but the practicing of those ways was precluded by my death to them.
It is written..."But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Rom 7:6)

I have no idea what you're talking about. Christianity was born within Judaism. Almost all (with very few exceptions) the early believers in Christ were Jews and all the authors of the Bible -- New and Old Testaments -- were Jews (with the sole exception of Luke). Even when the new religion spread throughout the Mediterranean world, many of the believers were Jews.

Even though He could have appeared as anyone, Jesus was a Jew. He studied the Torah, attended synagogue services, and read from and quoted from the Old Testament. Remember, there was no New Testament when Jesus was alive!

 

[Truthfrees]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Christianity was born within Judaism. Almost all (with very few exceptions) the early believers in Christ were Jews and all the authors of the Bible -- New and Old Testaments -- were Jews (with the sole exception of Luke). Even when the new religion spread throughout the Mediterranean world, many of the believers were Jews.

Even though He could have appeared as anyone, Jesus was a Jew. He studied the Torah, attended synagogue services, and read from and quoted from the Old Testament. Remember, there was no New Testament when Jesus was alive!

amen - when paul said all scripture was good for doctrine there was at that time only genesis-malachi that was called scripture - the nt was at that time called letters to xyz not scripture

 

[JLB]

We all agree on these points.

Mr Sahu doesn’t agree because he believes Paul is a false apostle and doesn’t believe his writings are scripture.


Mr Sahu has been deceived by a group of Messianic Judaism followers.



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Christianity was born within Judaism. Almost all (with very few exceptions) the early believers in Christ were Jews and all the authors of the Bible -- New and Old Testaments -- were Jews (with the sole exception of Luke). Even when the new religion spread throughout the Mediterranean world, many of the believers were Jews.

Even though He could have appeared as anyone, Jesus was a Jew. He studied the Torah, attended synagogue services, and read from and quoted from the Old Testament. Remember, there was no New Testament when Jesus was alive!

No argument about any of that.
But not being Jewish, and dead to the Law, I find it without merit to relapse into a dead covenant.
If one wants to investigate what the OT Jews did for their salvation, it is OK with me.
It would be like the Civil War re-enactors doing "Gettysburg" or "Bull Run".
A re-enactment.

 

[Hopeful]

Mr Sahu doesn’t agree because he believes Paul is a false apostle and doesn’t believe his writings are scripture.
Mr Sahu has been deceived by a group of Messianic Judaism followers.

Apparently you are much more familiar with his previous posts than I am.

 

[jaybo]

No argument about any of that.
But not being Jewish, and dead to the Law, I find it without merit to relapse into a dead covenant.
If one wants to investigate what the OT Jews did for their salvation, it is OK with me.
It would be like the Civil War re-enactors doing "Gettysburg" or "Bull Run".
A re-enactment.

I am not talking about relapsing into a "dead covenant". The Old Covenant is part of the living history of our Christian faith; it is not "dead".

 

[jaybo]

If you had been freed from prison, would you go back for visits?
I do realize the value of studying from whence our religion came from, but the practicing of those ways was precluded by my death to them.
It is written..."But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Rom 7:6)

It's more like "if you had been freed from prison, would you fight for justice?" I agree that it is good if one realizes the value of studying from whence our religion came from, but the practicing of those ways was precluded by my death to them.

 

[Hopeful]

I am not talking about relapsing into a "dead covenant". The Old Covenant is part of the living history of our Christian faith; it is not "dead".

As I wrote earlier, it isn't dead...but we are dead to it.
As it is written..."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God...
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Rom 7:4-6)

Our deaths with Christ have made us free from the Law.