Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

[Truthfrees]

IMHO, regarding salvation, I think that no law, except that which is stated within Romans 8:2, has power over eternal life. The laws of Romans 8:2 are also those laws which God spoke of as a part of the new covenant (Jer 31:33, Heb 8:8, Heb 8:13): laws that God, and God alone, places into the minds and hearts of those who are sanctified by Christ to know and believe in Him.
There are many laws that God gave to mankind to provide a standard of behavior to live by in this world, or to demonstrate a pattern of the heavenly law for our edification, but none which could ever deliver eternal life.
I think God's sole law for eternal life is this: that Christ alone is the Savior and therefore, He alone must save to the uttermost those who are to be saved: for such had God the Father so foreordained Christ as Savior and law of life. This I believe is why Paul could state that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus alone had made him free from the law of sin and death - the law of Christ (or Christ) had freed/redeemed him (and all those saved) from the law of sin and death. Paul of himself, contributed nothing.

sounds like a great theory if God hadn't said not the smallest part of God's laws will pass away until heaven and earth pass away - Matthew 5:17-20 - and it appears contained in these words of God that there would be those who break God's laws and teach others to do the same - also in this passage is talk of fulfilling the law - suffering Messiah has been filled but not conquering Messiah

 

[rogerg]

sounds like a great theory if God hadn't said not the smallest part of God's laws will pass away until heaven and earth pass away - Matthew 5:17-20 - and it appears contained in these words of God that there would be those who break God's laws and teach others to do the same - also in this passage is talk of fulfilling the law - suffering Messiah has been filled but not conquering Messiah

But whose law, and which commandments? Israel's? The gentiles? God's law tells us to rest in the completed work of Christ-- that is His commandment. There are now new commandments, new laws in Christ, which are to be followed should it be given us to do so

[Rom 3:20 KJV]
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

[Heb 7:18 KJV]
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[Eph 2:15 KJV]
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

 

[Truthfrees]

But whose law, and which commandments? Israel's? The gentiles? God's law tells us to rest in the completed work of Christ-- that is His commandment. There are now new commandments, new laws in Christ, which are to be followed should it be given us to do so

[Rom 3:20 KJV]
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

[Heb 7:18 KJV]
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[Eph 2:15 KJV]
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

red words are God's words - there are no red words to this effect - Matthew 15:24 perhaps comes to play - God's red words say to only live by red words as per Matthew 5:17-20 - Matthew 4:4 - Matthew 23:2-5

if anyone wants to disregard red words in favor of anyone else's words that is a choice God's red words said not to make - Matthew 5:17-20 -

so perhaps that is why some hold paul's words higher than red words and some hold red words higher than all others - if that is the case i guess the difference in pov is explained

 

[rogerg]

so perhaps that is why some hold paul's words higher than red words and some hold red words higher than all others - if that is the case i guess the difference in pov is explained

It is all of the Bible and therefore in-total comprises the word of God. The Bible itself informs us that to correctly interpret it, we must understand that no verse of prophecy (scripture) is of any private interpretation (that is, it must be compared/verified against the complete Bible) and that the spiritual of scripture must be compared against the spiritual to rightly divide the word of truth. Should we choose to ignore those admonitions and take each verse independently we will miss God's intent and doctrine.
All Scripture was given by inspiration of God whether or not the words were highlighted in red - God wrote it as one completely integrated book with each and every word in it for a reason

I would also like to make clear least I be misunderstood, that I am not saying the true believer in Christ is not called unto good works because they are, such as to love the brethren and to communicate the gospel to others, along with other tasks -- they have indeed been called by God for that. I am saying that Christ alone is Savior and therefore, salvation is through/by Him alone.

[2Pe 1:19 - 20 KJV]
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[1Co 2:13 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Regarding Mat 15:24, True, Christ was first to bring the gospel to the Jews but they rejected it and Him. Please see the following:

[Act 13:45-47 KJV]
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Regarding Mat 5:17& 18, we are informed that Christ did fulfill the law and the prophets. And, the law and the prophets are they which testify of Christ.

[Mat 5:17-18 KJV]
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[Jhn 5:39-40 KJV]
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

[Heb 10:7 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

I don't understand your reference to Mat 4:4?

Regarding Mat 23:2 - 5
I do not find anything having to do with the acquiring of salvation mentioned in those verses

 

[rhomphaeam]

Funnily those who talk of the law and moralism, tend towards this scorn and judgmentalism and anger. It is cloaked in a way to make them look innocent, while behaving worse themselves in secret. It is what Jesus exposed with the pharisees and they hated it, and were prepared to kill Him over His threat to the their power base. They knew they had no answer to openness, honesty and repentance, walking in reality, and valuing people, because for them status wealth and indulgence were everything, while appearing to be the best of people.

So dear brother and sister. Does the law encourage you to love more and care for those around or condemn you as unworthy? God intended the law as an encouragement to life. God bless you

I would take the view, brother that this element of what you shared is a little too closely modelled on modern psychological parlance than on what could be called a better effect. The better effect of course for oneself would be to not bear the wounds of being called a murderer (you understand) - rather to bear the scars and thus to demonstrate that it is Christ that heals. Telling other believers what it is that forms the core of their own flesh - especially when we point to the evil pride of life as exhibited by the Pharisees always produces an ill effect and in truth is best left to the Prophetic Ministry who are equipped to both say it, and to endure the wounds, without being driven by the pain thereof to a psychological remedy for themselves and thus a psychological explanation to instruct others in how to better love one another. In short, brother, the Prophet rebukes and warns because he knows that there may be no repentance even though he desires repentance - as God desires repentance - and the Pastor exhorts with patience because he knows that God may grant repentance and a more fruitful walk. When Pastors stop behaving like Prophets we will find less stumbling as you were stumbled by your Pastor as explained in this OP.

 

[Truthfrees]

It is all of the Bible and therefore in-total comprises the word of God. The Bible itself informs us that to correctly interpret it, we must understand that no verse of prophecy (scripture) is of any private interpretation (that is, it must be compared/verified against the complete Bible) and that the spiritual of scripture must be compared against the spiritual to rightly divide the word of truth. Should we choose to ignore those admonitions and take each verse independently we will miss God's intent and doctrine.
All Scripture was given by inspiration of God whether or not the words were highlighted in red - God wrote it as one completely integrated book with each and every word in it for a reason

I would also like to make clear least I be misunderstood, that I am not saying the true believer in Christ is not called unto good works because they are, such as to love the brethren and to communicate the gospel to others, along with other tasks -- they have indeed been called by God for that. I am saying that Christ alone is Savior and therefore, salvation is through/by Him alone.

[2Pe 1:19 - 20 KJV]
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[1Co 2:13 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Regarding Mat 15:24, True, Christ was first to bring the gospel to the Jews but they rejected it and Him. Please see the following:

[Act 13:45-47 KJV]
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Regarding Mat 5:17& 18, we are informed that Christ did fulfill the law and the prophets. And, the law and the prophets are they which testify of Christ.

[Mat 5:17-18 KJV]
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[Jhn 5:39-40 KJV]
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

[Heb 10:7 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

I don't understand your reference to Mat 4:4?

Regarding Mat 23:2 - 5
I do not find anything having to do with the acquiring of salvation mentioned in those verses

****i understand what you are saying but you do know what a red letter bible is? - it's a profound experience to just read the red words - you really get God's heart and message in a powerful way - no one can speak as concisely and potently as God

one example of paul contradicting God is paul said before the law there was NO sin - the flood proves that isn't true - for me red words win and paul is imperfect and subject to scrutiny

so it is evident in this thread that some hold red words higher than all others and some hold paul's words higher than red words - it's a personal choice - and there appears to be no compatibility between the 2 povs - paulianity is how i would describe the group that says paul's words replace red words - so red words vs paulianity are 2 incompatible povs imo

https://christianforums.net/search/541362/

 

[rhomphaeam]

But whose law, and which commandments? Israel's? The gentiles? God's law tells us to rest in the completed work of Christ-- that is His commandment. There are now new commandments, new laws in Christ, which are to be followed should it be given us to do so

[Rom 3:20 KJV]
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

[Heb 7:18 KJV]
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[Eph 2:15 KJV]
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

I agree with all of this, brother, but what Truthfrees quoted from Matthew 5:17-20 cannot mean that the Law and the Prophets have been annulled in the same sense of explaining that no flesh can be justified by the works of the Law. Justification when retrospectively cited amounts to saying 1 Corinthians 1:30 and that speaks of what the Father has done in Christ Jesus and therefore speaks of towards those that believe on His name. Some here appear to be speaking about the Royal Law - yet the Law and the Prophets will not pass away until heaven and earth pass away.

 

[PeterJens]

I would take the view, brother that this element of what you shared is a little too closely modelled on modern psychological parlance than on what could be called a better effect. The better effect of course for oneself would be to not bear the wounds of being called a murderer (you understand) - rather to bear the scars and thus to demonstrate that it is Christ that heals. Telling other believers what it is that forms the core of their own flesh - especially when we point to the evil pride of life as exhibited by the Pharisees always produces an ill effect and in truth is best left to the Prophetic Ministry who are equipped to both say it, and to endure the wounds, without being driven by the pain thereof to a psychological remedy for themselves and thus a psychological explanation to instruct others in how to better love one another. In short, brother, the Prophet rebukes and warns because he knows that there may be no repentance even though he desires repentance - as God desires repentance - and the Pastor exhorts with patience because he knows that God may grant repentance and a more fruitful walk. When Pastors stop behaving like Prophets we will find less stumbling as you were stumbled by your Pastor as explained in this OP.

Thanks for the response, brother.
What has amazed me is how various groups that hold the name christian vary from the you can do anything, grace covers it, to those who are total legalists and condemn anyone who does not conform to their group.

What I explored is how love was viewed by these different groups and individuals. In my life love has been the cornerstone of everything. Not love like hollywood, ahhh, but love that takes pain and sacrifice and praise the Lord and brings about blessing and resolution. In church one to one, it was often, I am hurting and you do not understand you superficial faker. Jesus is very strange. He talks about the law yet forgives the woman caught in adultery.

Emotional language changes the meaning of simple phrases and puts them in a very different context.
A hard hearted person, who will maintain who and what they are to their dying day, will look for any explanation of Jesus that justifies hard facts and leaves them alone. So grace is forgiving sin by ignoring continuing sin, as nothing can be done about it, and faith is accepting one is loved in the slavery to sin state. The law for these folk is just a light to show the need for Jesus, not the faith to believe Jesus changes us and makes us into His likeness. They will say it is Jesus's righteousness that God sees, so they are redeemed and given eternal life. Repentance is just changing their mind about being rejected by God and acknowledging their need and trusting Him that they are now seen as clean, while not being cleansed at all. To them I am also heard hearted but a lying about love and care, about desiring the best or doing good things. I am just a lost sinner being a hyprocrite earning my way to heaven.

The sad reality for me, is Jesus speaks emotionally, so 90% of his message never gets through to their hearts, no matter what I say or share. After years of interaction, nothing shifted, though some of the folk felt I was speaking death and condemnation to them, by suggesting we should live by love. To me to not see the cross is the ultimate expression of love and a promise of transformation through love, is to not know Jesus.

Why this matters is because our hearts determine how we look at the law of God, or the law of Christ. I personally am a thinker and theologian, so I explore different views and ideas, and often do not feel under the authority of church leaders. I respect their ministries, but often on deeper issues they do not know much beyond the basics.

Ironically love covers over a multitude of sins, so I desire just to encourage and bless, and share to the level folk can cope with. The law is a blessing, but equally needs exploring within social contexts we now face, that have shifted from times long past. God bless you

 

[rhomphaeam]

Thanks for the response, brother.
What has amazed me is how various groups that hold the name christian vary from the you can do anything, grace covers it, to those who are total legalists and condemn anyone who does not conform to their group.

What I explored is how love was viewed by these different groups and individuals. In my life love has been the cornerstone of everything. Not love like hollywood, ahhh, but love that takes pain and sacrifice and praise the Lord and brings about blessing and resolution. In church one to one, it was often, I am hurting and you do not understand you superficial faker. Jesus is very strange. He talks about the law yet forgives the woman caught in adultery.

Emotional language changes the meaning of simple phrases and puts them in a very different context.
A hard hearted person, who will maintain who and what they are to their dying day, will look for any explanation of Jesus that justifies hard facts and leaves them alone. So grace is forgiving sin by ignoring continuing sin, as nothing can be done about it, and faith is accepting one is loved in the slavery to sin state. The law for these folk is just a light to show the need for Jesus, not the faith to believe Jesus changes us and makes us into His likeness. They will say it is Jesus's righteousness that God sees, so they are redeemed and given eternal life. Repentance is just changing their mind about being rejected by God and acknowledging their need and trusting Him that they are now seen as clean, while not being cleansed at all. To them I am also heard hearted but a lying about love and care, about desiring the best or doing good things. I am just a lost sinner being a hyprocrite earning my way to heaven.

The sad reality for me, is Jesus speaks emotionally, so 90% of his message never gets through to their hearts, no matter what I say or share. After years of interaction, nothing shifted, though some of the folk felt I was speaking death and condemnation to them, by suggesting we should live by love. To me to not see the cross is the ultimate expression of love and a promise of transformation through love, is to not know Jesus.

Why this matters is because our hearts determine how we look at the law of God, or the law of Christ. I personally am a thinker and theologian, so I explore different views and ideas, and often do not feel under the authority of church leaders. I respect their ministries, but often on deeper issues they do not know much beyond the basics.

Ironically love covers over a multitude of sins, so I desire just to encourage and bless, and share to the level folk can cope with. The law is a blessing, but equally needs exploring within social contexts we now face, that have shifted from times long past. God bless you

I have taken this to another thread Peter. I will signal when I have posted a response. Thanks for the post, brother.

 

[JLB]

so then the question is what laws are now void? - especially since paul said not God's laws in Romans 3:31 - this is what is void: the manmade laws - and the attempt to be saved by keeping God's laws - that's pretty much paul's message in a nutshell -

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:27-31

There is no man made laws mentioned here.


What Paul was saying in a nutshell is, the law of faith and the law of Moses are upheld or established by the same principle which is obedience.


The entire book of Romans is framed in this context;

• The obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26





JLB

 

[stovebolts]

so perhaps that is why some hold paul's words higher than red words and some hold red words higher than all others - if that is the case i guess the difference in pov is explained

2Peter 3:15
ASV
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they doalso the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I’ve studied Torah using commentary from RAMBAN and it taught me Jews have very different discussions regarding scripture than gentiles. It also taught me how robust their language is. Some of the things RAMBAN said are hard to understand when first reading them and I recall getting confused numerous times trying to comprehend. And to boot, I’ve seen folks misunderstand him and twist it to their own destruction.

From this perspective, I know Paul was a student of the teachings of Hillel, and he had a deep, deep understanding of scripture. As a side note, Jesus sides with Hillel and expands Hillel teaching on every subject other than divorce. On the subject of divorce, Jesus sides with Shemia.

I say all this to remind you that when we read the Bible, we are entering into a broader conversation that’s already in motion. And it’s not that Paul is saying anything different than Jesus, but rather it’s easy to misunderstand Paul, just as Peter states.

To the church in Corinth, Paul reminds them that Christ is to be followed and even includes himself in chapter 1. You see, the last thing we want to do is set a notion that Paul’s writings are pitted against the words of Jesus. To those that put Paul’s words higher than Jesus, Paul would be quick to correct them, just as he did in 1 Corinthians 1. If anyone pits the words of Paul against the words of Jesus, then they do so unto their own destruction as Peter has said. You see, it’s simply their own misunderstandings of what Paul is saying.

 

[JLB]

1. You see, the last thing we want to do is set a notion that Paul’s writings are pitted against the words of Jesus. To those that put Paul’s words higher than Jesus, Paul would be quick to correct them, just as he did in 1 Corinthians 1. If anyone pits the words of Paul against the words of Jesus, then they do so unto their own destruction as Peter has said. You see, it’s simply their own misunderstandings of what Paul is saying.

So true.


Paul wrote to the churches what he was taught by Christ.

Paul’s writings are indeed scripture.


Unfortunately the very purpose of this thread is to discredit the Apostle Paul as a false teacher.





JLB

 

[Norman]

So true.


Paul wrote to the churches what he was taught by Christ.

Paul’s writings are indeed scripture.


Unfortunately the very purpose of this thread is to discredit the Apostle Paul as a false teacher.





JLB

Do you mean, "The very purpose of this thread is to discredit the Apostle Paul as a valid teacher?"

 

[rhomphaeam]

Do you mean, "The very purpose of this thread is to discredit the Apostle Paul as a valid teacher?"

In the first post of this OP you can read:

Is the Law now irrelevant to the Christian, now that he/she is under “ grace” (a word Jesus never uttered or taught)?

So seeing as Paul said in Romans 6:14b "for you are not under law but under grace." then Jesus didn't say what Paul did. So wherein lies the issue? It sets Jesus against Paul when expressing some doctrinal positions. But I may be wrong.

 

[Randy]

In the first post of this OP you can read:

Is the Law now irrelevant to the Christian, now that he/she is under “ grace” (a word Jesus never uttered or taught)?

So seeing as Paul said in Romans 6:14b "for you are not under law but under grace." then Jesus didn't say what Paul did. So wherein lies the issue? It sets Jesus against Paul when expressing some doctrinal positions. But I may be wrong.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth

If you asked me about the death penalty in light of Jesus I would consider the law and state its lawful but not mandatory for our country.

If you asked me about homosexuality in light of Jesus I would consider the law in regard to forbidden sex acts and state such acts qualify as sexual immorality and the sexual immoral do not enter the kingdom of God.

Like Paul I see all the law as law but I am not under law as one who serves God in the old way of the written code. I am under Christ and serve God in the new way of the Spirit.

Paul rebuked wickedness and its clear we are not free to sin. But I am neither Kosher not do I keep a Sabbath day as in the Law. (A complete absence of work) Nor do I follow Jewish customs or regulated religious festivals. Such things do not make me unclean.

Many rules and regulations even washing you hands before you eat.
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man `unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him `unclean.

The importance is not in works of the law such as circumcision. But as Paul wrote, "faith expressing itself through LOVE"

 

[Norman]

Well said, Randy!

 

[rhomphaeam]

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth

If you asked me about the death penalty in light of Jesus I would consider the law and state its lawful but not mandatory for our country.

If you asked me about homosexuality in light of Jesus I would consider the law in regard to forbidden sex acts and state such acts qualify as sexual immorality and the sexual immoral do not enter the kingdom of God.

Like Paul I see all the law as law but I am not under law as one who serves God in the old way of the written code. I am under Christ and serve God in the new way of the Spirit.

Paul rebuked wickedness and its clear we are not free to sin. But I am neither Kosher not do I keep a Sabbath day as in the Law. (A complete absence of work) Nor do I follow Jewish customs or regulated religious festivals. Such things do not make me unclean.

Many rules and regulations even washing you hands before you eat.
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man `unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him `unclean.

The importance is not in works of the law such as circumcision. But as Paul wrote, "faith expressing itself through LOVE"

I wasn't asking a question directionally - I was expressing a question that formed the basis for the question the person I was responding to asked which was itself based on another posters statement "The very purpose of this thread is to discredit the Apostle Paul as a valid teacher?" Perhaps I should just write a sermon every time I post. But thanks for the lesson.

 

[Norman]

Let me add, Randy. Well said, in a way that I could understand.

 

[rhomphaeam]

Let me add, Randy. Well said, in a way that I could understand.

But Randy didn't answer your question Norman and that is surely the point. You asked about the claim "The very purpose of this thread is to discredit the Apostle Paul as a valid teacher?" You therefore should have received an answer to that. I gave one possible answer based on the original post at the head of the thread. It would have been impossible not to have looked having read the post by JLB. Hope you are well brother!

 

[Randy]

But Randy didn't answer your question Norman and that is surely the point. You asked about the claim "The very purpose of this thread is to discredit the Apostle Paul as a valid teacher?" You therefore should have received an answer to that. I gave one possible answer based on the original post at the head of the thread. It would have been impossible not to have looked having read the post by JLB. Hope you are well brother!

If you read the very first post that poster declared Paul taught in direct contradiction to what the poster believes is the truth of the matter. He later highlights where Paul states he deceived some into winning souls for God. As in Paul is a deceiver.

I'll let the readers make up their own minds whether they perceive this as trashing Paul to justify their version of what is true.